/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18555027]

When is history coming back? I’m getting pretty tired of people LARPing as radicals and all forms of art being dead

[Anonymous No.18555255]

>>18555027
>People LARPing as radicals
Spend less time on the internet
>Unironically believing Fukuyamas "history is dead" bs

[Anonymous No.18555790]

>when is history coming back
brother do I have news for you

[Anonymous No.18556747]

>>18555027
>all forms of art being dead
art isn't dead but you probably are

[Anonymous No.18556752]

It's herstory now.

[Anonymous No.18556764]

>>18555027
Stop living in the imperial core. History never ended, whatever that means.

[Anonymous No.18556766]

It never ended fag, that's just an ideology that liberalism uses to say "this is the worst system except for all the others, aw shucks, what can you do," but that is becoming a problem because, as an end-of-history ideology, it lacks the intellectual capacity to act because there's nowhere to go.

https://youtu.be/ACA774bm9wU

[Anonymous No.18556772]

>>18555027
Plenty of countries you can die in to move history forward right now, but we both know you are also a LARPer, OP.

[Anonymous No.18556795]

So okay, you have radical ideologies in history and you have people LARPing them, and those ideologies might seem radical from the perspective of a British guy in Bongland Pedo Island. But they probably didn't seem that radical in the countries where they really took off. Actually it seemed like it made a lot of sense to them. And underneath all of the ideology was probably something pretty simple, like "they're telling us we can't do this or that! Fuck that, they can't tell us what to do! No one's gonna hold us back!"

https://youtu.be/vVpDtum5gtY?t=28

[Anonymous No.18556812]

>>18556795
>>18556766
you're the most annoying faggot on this entire site, china isn't gonna take over the world, liberalism is still our dominant system and most young people are becoming socially progressive. literally no one gives a shit about china except chinese people, even most leftists around the world dislike china and claim “it’s not real socialism because they don’t have enough black transgender BIPOC sex workers” or whatever

[Anonymous No.18556823]

>>18556812
They might not be interested in China, but China is very much interested in them. A liberal world order will not survive an emergent superpower seeking to create its own order.

[Anonymous No.18556826]

>>18555027
Wait for global warming to cause sea level rise and billions of refugees. History is about to kick into high gear.

[Anonymous No.18556832]

>>18556812
consumed by ideology

[Anonymous No.18557221]

You should be willing to put your life on the line in order to have a crack at history. People don't do that in the west anymore.

[Anonymous No.18557264]

Liberal democracy and neoliberal capitalism must be killed in order for history to resume its motion. Fukuyama believes that, in the modern postwar order, liberal democracy and neoliberal capitalism constitute the completion of the vision proffered by Hegel way back in the beginning of the 19th Century, of the "progression of history." That with the fall of the Soviet Union, and the dominance of neoliberal capitalism and liberal democracy, the narrative of history sketched out by Hegel has reached its end.

So, to restart history, to resume history's motion, both neoliberal capitalism and liberal democracy must be destroyed. They must be broken, and broken in a way that leaves them beyond repair.

And what, or who, is the biggest proponent of both of these things? Who is the most powerful champion of both of these things, of both neoliberal capitalism and liberal democracy?

Why, it's the United States, of course.

So, then, the task is clear. The course of action is obvious: if you wish to restart history, you must kill the United States.

This is why >>18556764 is wrong. The imperial core is very much a matter of import for those seeking to restart history. For it is at the heart of empire that death must be dealt. One cannot slay a dragon by living in a village at the outskirts of its desolation. One must venture into the dragon's den, into the heart of its lair, to slay the beast.

So the goal of anyone wishing to restart history must be to kill the United States. To break it. Not even in war or on the battlefield. That victory would not be total enough, and would not be complete enough. No, America must be killed as an idea. It must be killed as an ideology. The very heart of America--the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights--must be destroyed, and ruined, and wrecked beyond hope of recovery.

Then, and only then, will history resume its motion, because then, and only then, will the "end of history" no longer have sufficient hold over the world.

[Anonymous No.18557284]

>>18555027
>When is history coming back?
Never we are at the end of history
>I’m getting pretty tired of people LARPing as radicals and all forms of art being dead.
Too bad. You WILL LARP as a pagan. You WILL consume anime and make hours long YouTube analysis videos on how Berserk is great art and how the marvel cinematic universe (trademarked by Disney) is the height of Cinema. And you WILL fap to hentai and eat bug sandwiches.

[Anonymous No.18557303]

>>18557284
>eat bug sandwiches
but i don't wanna eat bug sandwiches...

[Anonymous No.18557344]

>>18555027
>>18556747
>>18556764
We're not at the final stage yet, the final stage being a world where you will own nothing, eat the bugs, live in the pod, and BE HAPPY. It will begin by the end of the century and then history will end. A definitive system that keeps those in power powerful, and leaves the rest complacent with their bread and circus, something they've been trying for thousands of years.

[Anonymous No.18557369]

Japan sucks

[Anonymous No.18557469]

>>18555027
History is back.

Things that were assumed as certain, are no longer certain - the never ending advance of liberal democracy, the reduction and disarmament of nuclear weapons, American maintaining a nearly hegemonic status over global affairs.

The language in the strategic / military / international relations communities has changed. It's all talk over "great power competition", "confronting/defending the global rules based order". This isn't a meme like the forever COIN interventions. We're back to realpolitik, and many countries are still in total denial over it.

If you want to know a good litmus test for global trends - just look at the British. A country of peak Neoliberalism. They're like algae. Sensitive to the waters of the global markets that feed them. The last 5 years they've made two significant decisions; Brexit and the expansion of their nuclear warhead stockpile. These decisions are not good signs for the underlying health of the world as we know it.

[Anonymous No.18557512]

>>18557264
>The very heart of America--the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights--must be destroyed, and ruined, and wrecked beyond hope of recovery.
Don't you see that this is already occurring? This is the phenomena of SJWism, LGBT ideology, white guilt, BLM, etc. These things taken holistically are an almost schizophrenic and caricatured rejection of every dominant value of the previous regime, let's say up to the late 20th century. Nothing of what is occurring today has any permanence (there will not be trannies in 2121), but is a symptom of the abandonment of the old value system. If we attempt to be objective here without passing value judgements, it becomes clear that America is in the process of reinventing itself.

Most notably the abandonment of the old value system is the abandonment of politics; if we refer to the period 1648-1945 as the era of politics, of rationalism and secularism, then the decades since, our own era, becomes a segue to the total rejection of politics, rationalism and secularism, which is preparing the conditions necessary for a new value system. Modern American politics is deliberately non-rational (not irrational); its cult-like nature stems from this rational irrationality, which has a quasi-religious idea as its object but maintains the veil of rationality. Here I refer to things like the blending of the genders, or the elevation of Trump to godlike status. American politics is defined by self-interested cult-like parties, of people loyal to their group and who seek its improvement in status within the state (LGBT, BLM, MAGA, etc, each acts like a mini nation even with their own flag), rather than the improvement of the state itself, which has historically been the function of the political.

Spengler was fundamentally correct in his diagnosis of Caesarism; the present and near future of the American state, no longer a people but a population, will consist of escalating conflict between self-interested parties each determined to wrestle control over the state at the expense of everyone else until one is victorious, and brutally so. Again, without passing a value judgement, this is a necessary condition of the rejection of rationalism and politics, which is made inevitable by the coming of a new system of values.

[Monstrous proletarian. No.18557520]

>>18555027
When my people shoot the owners of capital and dismantle the relationships of capital.

[Anonymous No.18557543]

>>18555027
The "end of history" ended on 9/11

[Anonymous No.18557548]

>>18557264
I reject that the country and concepts you listen are required to be destroyed to restart history.

They require competition. Which is what they're now getting.

[Anonymous No.18557586]

>>18557512
>>The very heart of America--the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights--must be destroyed, and ruined, and wrecked beyond hope of recovery.
>Don't you see that this is already occurring? This is the phenomena of SJWism, LGBT ideology, white guilt, BLM, etc. These things taken holistically are an almost schizophrenic and caricatured rejection of every dominant value of the previous regime, let's say up to the late 20th century

actually it’s the epitome of it. these are the culmination of the abomination of america they are extensions of the hysteria but just reflect demographic changes

[Anonymous No.18557772]

>>18556823
You should talk to Chinese international students. The entire Chinese elite is converting itself to liberalism.

[Anonymous No.18557783]

>>18557512
You are wrong. What you’re seeing with the rise of progressive ideology isn’t a replacement of Liberalism, it’s the final stage of decay. It’s a culmination, it’s an implosion, it’s an internal rot that has been building up in America since 1776. It’s still Liberalism, but the more it spreads around the world, the more it decays and the more people realize it’s inherently unsustainable.

[Anonymous No.18558207]

>>18555027
now

[Anonymous No.18558240]

It won’t. Deep down, everyone knows he was right and it’s not coming back until it’s over.

[Anonymous No.18558686]

>>18557772
>The entire Chinese elite is converting itself to liberalism.
.....
They cannot be this stupid. One glance at modern America shows you how bad liberalism is. Plus I find it hard to believe a state which is repressing minorities like the Uyghurs is remotely close to liberalizing.

[Anonymous No.18558779]

God, how could you live through 2020 and still think we're all LARPING. That shit made lots of sense in the 1990s but dude you gotta have your fucking head in the sand if you think history has not begun again.

[Anonymous No.18559128]

>>18558686
They were, but they are beginning to take countermeasures.
Also, it's not about the state yet. It's about the fact that the people who run that state send all their children to Harvard, Princeton, and Yale, where they become good liberal democrats and then return home to spread the gospel of democracy. The result will be the conversion of the entire elite to liberalism, but it may take some time and at least one war.

[Anonymous No.18559144]

>>18559128
>They were, but they are beginning to take countermeasures.
Against liberalism? And who's they, the party leadership?

>and at least one war.
Do you mean an internal conflict in China or a Chinese-American war?

[Anonymous No.18559199]

>>18557772
>>18559128
That is not happening at all. What planet do you live on? The CCP elite are going the complete opposite of liberalising.

[Anonymous No.18559234]

>>18559144
>Against liberalism?
Against the conversion of their children at American universities.
>And who's they, the party leadership?
Yes.
>Do you mean an internal conflict in China or a Chinese-American war?
I don't know. It could be either.
>>18559199
Have you ever met any Chinese international students? Have you ever asked them about their families? The richest, most well-educated, and most powerful people in China send their children to American universities, where they often become indistinguishable from liberals. If they keep sending their children to school here, and if they continue to regard HPY - and Columbia, I am told - as the ideal places to get an education, or at the very least status markers, then they will end up in a situation where the people poised to take over key leadership positions after their parents are a mixture of foreign-educated liberals and locally-educated "conservatives," while the great mass of the population continues to be oriented toward these "conservatives." It will be a very odd situation. In Japan's case, a similar situation ended in war. Let us hope that things turn out differently with China.

[Anonymous No.18559259]

China, even the concept itself of China, is nearly incapable of translation into Western thought. The Western geopolitical experience is a universal empire collapsing into personal rule of private fiefs, and then the ruled subjects of those fiefs identifying with the fiefs instead of their rulers. The Chinese empire is a permanent feature of Asia. Even when foreigners conquered China they became Chinese. China is basically a living fossil, a civilization from antiquity, but it is not safely locked in a museum. I have met Chinese people who think of themselves and their families as hundreds of years old, who know and care enough about what jobs their ancestors had in the middle ages to tell you about them. Every Chinese person to be sure, is not like this, but how many Westerners conceive of themselves, their families, or their countries as some sort of eternity? The dominant Western country, the United States, is almost entirely descended from people who elected to divorce from their homelands, cultures, communities, and so forth. An American and a Chinese person might as well not even be considered nationalities. An American is stateless (even the name of his country is plural) and a Chinese is the state. In other words, China has been breeding its people for thousands of years, while the average Western government emerges from some catastrophism or other of the last few hundred years. That is not to say China is without catastrophic traumas, but the result of these is always to reinforce China as an idea. Even the Maoist dynasty are clear on this, they demand all highways of trade are routed to the center of the universe, that any breakaway provinces be brought back under the fold. On the surface this is mistaken for nationalism because again China does not really translate to Western thought—the truth of the matter from a Chinese view is non-dual, that the world is China and China is the world.

[Anonymous No.18559303]

>>18559259
Extremely autistic copypasta.

[Anonymous No.18559330]

>>18559303
Guaranteed replies though

[Anonymous No.18559336]

>>18559234
You're using conjecture to come to a conclusion.

No serious China academic would agree with you. If you honestly believe that "liberalised" elites are going to be taking ranking positions in the government and party whilst under Xi Jinping or his successor you don't understand China.

The party has never been more conservative in 30 years. For god sake, they recently removed term limits from Xi. It is utterly unfathomable how anyone could believe they're going to be liberalising after their domestic and foreign policy positions over the last 5 years.

[Anonymous No.18559390]

>>18559336
>You're using conjecture to come to a conclusion.
No, I'm using the fact that I see before me the unfolding of a process that has already occurred in other countries and that has predictable results.
>No serious China academic would agree with you.
I don't care lmao
>If you honestly believe that "liberalised" elites are going to be taking ranking positions in the government and party whilst under Xi Jinping or his successor you don't understand China.
So what are all those people going to do with their children? Put them in jail? Ban them from returning to China with their degrees from Columbia? You keep missing the point that the people in question are not random peasants, but the children of the present ruling elite itself. They are undermining themselves.
>It is utterly unfathomable how anyone could believe they're going to be liberalising after their domestic and foreign policy positions over the last 5 years.
Simple. The present conservatives send their children to liberal schools in America. Their children become liberals. Their children return to China and take up positions of power, which allows them to function as a powerful bloc of opinion that cannot be removed without the elite purging itself or being overthrown by radical elements from, for instance, the military. That's it.

[Anonymous No.18559464]

>>18559390
Your entire premise relies on regime doing nothing to protect itself and just allowing these "liberalised" elites to take over.

>I don't care lmao
Disregard for expertise is correlated to lack of knowledge.

>So what are all those people going to do with their children? Put them in jail? Ban them from returning to China with their degrees from Columbia? You keep missing the point that the people in question are not random peasants, but the children of the present ruling elite itself. They are undermining themselves.
This is China. Under Xi's rule. He can and will do anything to sustain his and the party's position. I don't think you appreciate there are no restraints on his power.

>Simple. The present conservatives send their children to liberal schools in America. Their children become liberals. Their children return to China and take up positions of power, which allows them to function as a powerful bloc of opinion that cannot be removed without the elite purging itself or being overthrown by radical elements from, for instance, the military. That's it.
This isn't happening, Anon. It is fanfiction.

[Anonymous No.18559493]

>>18559464
There's a nonzero chance of what the other anon is talking about. Happened to Portugal. Oh and it got them kicked out of Africa too. Watch closely.

[Anonymous No.18559527]

>>18559390
>The present conservatives send their children to liberal schools in America. Their children become liberals. Their children return to China and take up positions of power, which allows them to function as a powerful bloc of opinion that cannot be removed without the elite purging itself or being overthrown by radical elements from, for instance, the military. That's it.
If the American academia ends up saving America after ~60 years of trying all it can to destroy the country, I will never stop laughing.

[Anonymous No.18559564]

>>18559464
>Your entire premise relies on regime doing nothing to protect itself and just allowing these "liberalised" elites to take over.
Yes, because they're their children, and because this has happened over and over again. How do you think America got to be how it is? In any case, like I said, they are beginning to take countermeasures, but I have yet to hear of even a single case of such countermeasures succeeding.
>Disregard for expertise is correlated to lack of knowledge.
You sound either very young or very autistic. Here's a hint: objective "expertise" is a myth. It does not exist. Start looking more closely at what you are being fed, and you will notice that it all points in the same direction.
>This is China. Under Xi's rule. He can and will do anything to sustain his and the party's position. I don't think you appreciate there are no restraints on his power.
He sent his own daughter to Harvard. Is he going to purge her? How many of his friends' children is he going to purge? How many of the children of the country's leading businessmen is he going to purge?
>This isn't happening, Anon. It is fanfiction.
It is already happening.
https://monthlyreview.org/2021/05/01/five-characteristics-of-neoimperialism/
>The cultural hegemony of the United States, its control over liberal arts academia, and the fraudulent use to which these advantages are put also appear in the stances taken by the United States on questions of ideology and values. These stances are always hostile to socialism and communism, and restrict the development of socialist countries. [...] According to survey data from the U.S. Pew Research Center—an organization surely influenced by U.S. cultural hegemony and fraud—74 percent of Chinese college or university graduates love U.S. culture.73 It is a fact that most Chinese liberal arts scholars who have studied in the United States favor its basic institutional academic theories. To varying extents, they worship, flatter, and fear the United States. This seriously affects the confidence of Chinese citizens in Marxist culture, in socialist culture, and in China’s own rich traditional culture, and needs to be eliminated as soon as possible.
>Cheng Enfu is a principal professor at the University of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, director of the Research Center for Economic and Social Development at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, and president of the World Association for Political Economy.
There are two possibilities.
1. You've never been to a university that is good enough to attract Chinese international students.
2. You've never spoken with Chinese international students.
Every single Chinese international student I have spoken with, no matter how rich or well-connected their family is, has been a hardcore liberal. I am not kidding when I say that they would be as incapable of having a conversation with an American conservative as any other American liberal.

[Anonymous No.18559618]

>>18559234
>have you met Chinese international students
Yes! They come here because money won't buy you a spot in Chinese Universities or bureaucracy. The truly liberal ones stay here. The rest return to live in comfortable mediocrity because they cannot eclipse their elite parents. All the chinese I've talked to know how their system works, but don't judge it by Western values.

[Anonymous No.18559619]

>>18559564
I am not going to take someone seriously who rejects the division of knowledge and then uses academics to prove his point.

You are not a serious person. You are everything that Tom Nichols described in his book The Death of Expertise.

[Anonymous No.18559690]

>>18559564
That’s not been my experience at all.

[Anonymous No.18559705]

>>18559618
If money and parental status aren't enough for success in China, and if the people who can't cut it there end up in America, what does that say about us?
More importantly, I can neither confirm nor deny what you say. There is every possibility that these students return home and do well in business, work at newspapers or universities, and thereby spread their influence. The bureaucracy is not necessarily as important as it seems.
>>18559619
>The division of knowledge
Lol. All I can say is that the idea of a "science" without values, of "objective, "neutral," and "impartial" knowledge produced by specific social institutions as a whole is one that the vast majority of academics I have met reject. No one believes in it any more. Some reject it on Foucauldian grounds, while others reject it on Straussian grounds. You will have to decide for yourself which approach is more reasonable.

[Anonymous No.18559769]

>>18559690
Same as mine, but the guy doesn't accept the concept of qualifications by peer acceptance being a thing. So I wouldn't place much thought into what he's saying.

[Anonymous No.18559791]

>>18559769
You don't seem like you have much experience of anything.

[Anonymous No.18559798]

Wrong board retard

[Anonymous No.18559829]

>>18559791
I am a fool, and is that is why I defer to the knowledge and expertise of others.

[Anonymous No.18559852]

>>18555027
>When is history coming back?
When the retirement/pension system collapses

[Anonymous No.18559878]

>>18559829
It is precisely because you are a fool that you believe that there can be objective "expertise" in such matters.

[Anonymous No.18559925]

>>18559829
>he trust "the experts"
The US government has armies of people who work in "public policy' that are basically innumerate. Sociologists are even worse. We already have seen what the medical establishment is like. Foreign policy "experts" don't speak the languages of the countries they are an "Expert" on. The military can't win wars.

[Anonymous No.18559936]

>>18559878
That's must be an interesting position hold when you need exercise your dependency on a system of knowledge and labor.

[Anonymous No.18559950]

>>18556812
I never said China is going to take over the world, and China is not going to take over the world. But I think the west needs that image of China to justify its own logic. Liberal ideology is all about "saving" people from the authoritarian meanies, even people who don't want to be saved.

Or they want to repeat the Cold War. China's rise to superpower status is gonna be blocked because they suck at hockey! Who gives a fuck about hockey? But why do we need superpowers anyways? China is a powerful country but that doesn't mean it has to act like the Soviet Union or the United States.

[Anonymous No.18559962]

>>18559925
There are bad "experts", but even good experts get things wrong - this does not mean expertise do not exist.

[Anonymous No.18560030]

>>18559962
Certainly it doesn't exist in the US, because Americans are dumb. Can't be sure about other countries due to lack of experience.

[Anonymous No.18561222]

This thread was moved to >>>/his/11457510