/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18502729]

These two thinkers are diametrically opposed to each other

Biological essentialism vindicates Nietzsche and refutes Marx thoroughly. I think Marx's critic of Capitalism is the greatest ever conceived but his prescriptive thoughts are so out of touch and not compatible with how reality actually works - hence why Nietzsche wins.

How do Leftist's cope with this antithetical tension posed upon their thesis? Well, they don't. They just outright deny human biological essentialism as a phenomenon. Have any Marxist been brave enough to tackle Nietzsche yet that I'm not aware of?

[Anonymous No.18502766]

Is this yet another "Marxism is wrong because of human nature" thread?

[Anonymous No.18502784]

>I think Marx's critic of Capitalism is the greatest ever conceived

Yikes!

[Anonymous No.18502790]

>>18502766
Yes. Unequality can be better explained by human biodiversity than muh historical materialism.

[Anonymous No.18502800]

>I think Marx's critic of Capitalism is the greatest ever conceived
Stopped here.

[Anonymous No.18502863]

>>18502766
Marxism self-refuted by the fact that it even exists. Marx being a staunch atheist and turned into a quasi-religious figure is one of the funniest ironies in human history, not even a materialist theory of history was enough to convince people that religion should gradually just be discarded. They just turned communism into another religion, a tendency that Nietzsche already thoroughly wrote about

[Anonymous No.18503368]

>>18502729
This explains the amount of Nietzsche hate this board saw the first few weeks of summer.

[Anonymous No.18503414]

That's where you get Gramsci, Lenin, etc. Welcome to tankie town.

>With regard to the state, Machiavelli says that, “the form of government is of very small importance, although half-educated people think otherwise. The great goal of statecraft should be duration, which outweighs all else, inasmuch as it is more valuable than liberty." It is only with securely founded and guaranteed duration that continual development and ennobling inoculation are at all possible. As a rule, however, authority, the dangerous companion of all duration, will rise in opposition to this.

-- Nietzsche

>The modern prince, the myth-prince, cannot be a real person, a concrete individual. It can only be an organism, a complex element of society in which a collective will, which has already been recognised and has to some extent asserted itself in action, begins to take concrete form. History has already provided this organism, and it is the political party -- the first cell in which there come together germs of a collective will tending to become universal and total. In the modern world, only those historico-political actions which are immediate and imminent, characterised by the necessity for lightning speed, can be incarnated mythically by a concrete individual

-- Gramsci

https://youtu.be/U952RMdNnuU?t=197

[Anonymous No.18503422]

>>18502790
But this makes me uncomfortable when i think about it so can we just not ever talk about this?

[Anonymous No.18503608]

>>18502729
lol its okay anon you can try again. Next time google it first.

[Anonymous No.18504549]

>>18502729
>Biological essentialism vindicates Nietzsche
what the fuck are you talking about? you do realize that the Übermensch is not a biological concept at all?

[Anonymous No.18504573]

>>18502729
>Biological essentialism vindicates Nietzsche and refutes Marx thoroughly
OP you are pants-on-head retarded.

[Anonymous No.18504578]

>>18504549
It's an AI God?

[Anonymous No.18504586]

>>18502729
And biological essentialism is totally innacurate and fails to explain much of human behaviour.

[Anonymous No.18504587]

>>18504578
no, the Übermensch is a superior being to human through his liberation from slave morality and his supreme assertion of will

[Anonymous No.18504634]

>>18504587
>superior being to human through his liberation from slave morality and his supreme assertion of will

[Anonymous No.18504708]

>>18502729
>Marx's … prescriptive thoughts
U wot cunt?

[Anonymous No.18504713]

>>18504587
Yeah which can only be attained thru good breeding as Nietzsche explains in several aphorisms

[Anonymous No.18504725]

>>18504586
It can explain it all, see Selfish Gene. The only question is getting the required empirical evidence for it, not the actual possibility of explanation.

[Anonymous No.18504749]

>>18503414
>political parties
>collective will
Gramsci is a retard.

[Anonymous No.18504806]

>>18502729
>Biological essentialism
cringe

>>18504725
cringe

[Anonymous No.18504809]

>>18502729
They aren't opposed. Capitalism is an oppressive structure and Marx criticized capitalism and sought to liberate people. Nietzsche also sought to liberate people except from nihilism and Christianity. Christianity and capitalism often go hand and hand each supporting the other's existence. In the movie There Will Be Blood it was the metaphor about the narcissism and oppressiveness of Capitalism and Christianity. Capitalism eventually won over Christianity when Daniel kills Eli but they both weren't good people. Each step of the way philosophers such as Nietzsche and Marx are criticizing oppressive structures and seeking to liberate people.

[Anonymous No.18504815]

>>18504713
>taking Nietzsche at face value
I fucking HATE illiterate retards. You're no better than Nietzsche's own sister

[Anonymous No.18504833]

>>18504815
Only you know the true esoteric meaning of "the sick man is a parasite on society" which is really liberal therapeutic humanism after all

[Anonymous No.18504834]

>>18504725
>see Selfish Gene. The only question is getting the required empirical evidence
Dawkins is a hypocrite. God can theoretically "explain it all", and yet there is no evidence for that either. Why should we take Dawkin's pseudo-philosophical speculations to be anymore true than those of religion, when there is equally as much empirical evidence for either side?

[Anonymous No.18504835]

>>18504809
>Nietzsche also sought to liberate people except from nihilism and Christianity.
N was an individualist, he’s not preaching to the rabble here or has any plans to be a messiah. “Zarathustra” is highly ironic as a character.

Also, Nietzsche completely destroys the moral framework for Marxism, why would he give a fuck about capitalism being oppressive?

[Anonymous No.18504844]

>>18504713
>explains in aphorisms

[Anonymous No.18504847]

>>18503608
deleuze didn't understand nietzsche

[Anonymous No.18504849]

>>18504833
Oh look, another naive reading that affirms itself through the denigration of its opposite. Your thinking is miserably inflexible, and too ill-equipped to be reading Nietzsche.

[Anonymous No.18504852]

>>18504835
There is synthetization between them. Nietzsche believed in ubermensch who was someone that developed their own values and overcame struggle. The main struggle of today for many people is living in an exploitative capitalist system. A person that values something different than capitalism is ubermensch because they are creating their own values rather than what society tells them, which is to praise and enforce the capitalist structure.

[Anonymous No.18504855]

>>18504847
Deleuze believes that philosophy is a kind of "buggery" that involves radically misinterpreting the thinkers who came before them, so he'd actually agree with you there.

>"getting onto the back of an author, and giving him a child, which would be his and which would at the same time be a monster"

Basically, philosophy is gay sex for the sole purpose of bastard-child creation.

[Anonymous No.18504862]

>taking capitalism seriously
cringe

[Anonymous No.18504868]

>>18504849
>he was only pretending to be retarded
Like you I suppose?

[Anonymous No.18504874]

>>18504855
>>18504847
>>18503608
Then I guess no one should look to him for advice if he just puts words into people's mouths :\

[Anonymous No.18504881]

>>18504809
>capitalism and christianity are the same because...because.. it just IS okay??
>movie analogy
yeh i believe u

[Anonymous No.18504883]

>>18504868
lrn2irony. Nietzsche is one of the most misleading writers, nothing he says is quite as it seems and to trust his words implicitly is to miss the entire point of a hermeneutics of suspicion.

[Anonymous No.18504888]

>>18502790
>>18502729

Biological essentialism is literally a logical conclusion of determinism/materialism it kinda sucks how both the racists and Marxists are right.

[Anonymous No.18504891]

Marxism to economics is what Freudian psychoanalysis is to psychology.

And that's a bad thing.

[Anonymous No.18504892]

>>18504874
No anon, he's saying that ALL of philosophy is a series of radical misinterpretations. Marx misinterpreted hegel, Nietzsche misinterpreted schopenhauer, Schopenhauer misinterpreted Kant... It doesn't mean that these thinkers are unreliable, just that philosophical epistemology develops in this way. The parallel to this would be Bloom's anxiety of influence, where literary innovation occurs because authors are terrified that they're merely retreading the work of writers who came before them.

[Anonymous No.18504897]

>>18504881
You realize that America put "In God We Trust" on money to fight against atheist, Communist USSR during the Cold War right? Christianity and Capitalism are allies. Christianity teaches people to listen and to fear authority and overall to enforce hierarchies. This is how Christianity helps Capitalism.

[Anonymous No.18504906]

>>18504897
>Christianity and Capitalism are allies
Tell that to the christian communists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites

[Anonymous No.18504915]

>>18504897
>Christianity and Capitalism are allies. Christianity teaches people to listen and to fear authority and overall to enforce hierarchies. This is how Christianity helps Capitalism.
Christianity isn't either/or (either capitalist or communist). It has elements of hierarchy and egalitarianism that overlaps with both systems, and extends beyond them. In one sense monastics are a type of mini-communists with property shared amongst them and mostly equal rankings. In another sense we have respect for hierarchy in the family and in the state, depending on the conditions.
Christianity doesn't belong to either camp and could help and hinder both depending on the circumstances and expressions.

[Anonymous No.18504917]

>>18504906
An exception doesn't disprove the rule. Overall Capitalist nations tend to believe in Abrahamic religions because Abrahamic religions teach people to be subservient which helps enforce the capitalist structure.

[Anonymous No.18504921]

>>18504891

Who do you think Keynes was reading when he wrote the general theory? Keynes's conception of aggregate demand is literally stolen from Marx's work.

[Anonymous No.18504922]

>capitalism
Let the meme die

[Anonymous No.18504931]

>>18504917
>Abrahamic religions teach people to be subservient
Have you read Weber's book on protestantism and capitalism? Because he basically argues the opposite, that capitalism emerged as a result of calvinism and the protestant idea of an autonomous and individual connection to god, rather than something mediated by the church.

[Anonymous No.18504937]

>>18504917
Communism also depends on people being subservient on a far larger scale because the macro economy and small businesses need to be micromanaged by some central committee and religion and ''bourgeousie'' elements need to be tightly suppressed, without mass subservience commies would be constantly revolting against each other and nothing would ever get done.
If you look at countries with communist pasts you'll see they are far more totalitarian than capitalist countries even restricting movement and travel for citizens out of the country.

[Anonymous No.18504939]

Biological essentialism is pseudoscience

[Anonymous No.18504944]

>>18504939
you will never ever be a woman (or a fish)

[Anonymous No.18504950]

>>18504915
Any religion that teaches you to serve God or be subservient to God is helping Capitalism because in essence it is teaching you to accept hierarchies as they are. God is good, you are a human that sins and you need to worship God. Rich capitalist people are good and create jobs and wealth for society, you are a worker that needs to serve a business to make a living. You see the parallels?

[Anonymous No.18504958]

>>18504950
You have to be 18 to post here kiddo

[Anonymous No.18504960]

>>18504950
I need to believe in Dialectics to help the working class prevail in order for us to reach the Absolute do u see the parallels sonny

[Anonymous No.18504965]

>>18504950
>n essence it is teaching you to accept hierarchies as they are
That's not what capitalism does at all, if anything its about the dissolution of hierarchies (if we're talking about fully unregulated capitalism, that is). Even Marx knew that the free market was the best means of dissolving all of our pre-exisitng social relations, its why he voted in favour of it.

[Anonymous No.18504969]

>>18504931
Protestantism is exactly what I'm talking about. Protestant work ethic was specifically a coevolution with capitalism because it teaches that work is one of the most important things? The richest Americans were Protestant for a long time because teaching people this religion benefits them but not their workers.

[Anonymous No.18504976]

>>18504950
Whether or not we live in capitalism or communism, you still have to serve your betters. It makes no qualitative difference, authority and submission will always necessarily exist in some form. The main difference is that socialism/communism displaces legitimate authority into the future (so that we reject current authorities), whereas with Christianity legitimate authority is displaced into the transcendent realm, so that there is nothing inherently just about current authorities.

[Anonymous No.18504981]

>>18504950
>Any religion that teaches you to serve God or be subservient to God is helping Capitalism because in essence it is teaching you to accept hierarchies as they are.
If you're going against "capitalism" (or any problem) in an ungodly way, then you're becoming part of the bigger problem. I don't believe the ends justify the means. I don't view life simply as a cost-benefit analysis. If I critique capitalism or communism I would do it from a higher perspective.
So I would still worship God because God is the ultimate purpose of our life and how we justify our moral claims. Struggling against temporal problems, politics, economics and environmental stuff are secondary issues.

>Rich capitalist people are good and create jobs and wealth for society, you are a worker that needs to serve a business to make a living. You see the parallels?
Christianity doesn't say rich people are good because they make jobs. Everyone is a sinner and intentions behind actions matter. Just because we recognize hierarchies doesn't mean they have to remain static forever. If we're going to revolt it has to be done in a godly way, not like French or Communist revolutions that did more harm than good and just set people back.

[Anonymous No.18505015]

>>18504976
In communism you are serving your community and you directly benefit from it by having a better community as a result. In capitalism you are alienated from your work and the people that benefit are largely wealthy capitalists that absorb all the surplus value of your labor. It's exploitation, not communal.

[Anonymous No.18505027]

>>18505015
>In communism you are serving your community
Literally just begging the question. Some people, most people, don't even know how to tie their shoelaces, so someone has to tell them what to do.
> and you directly benefit from it by having a better community as a result.
The same thing applies in some sense to capitalism too. You directly benefit from your labour through wages, and the community benefits too by increased production. The only difference is in to what degree you benefit rather than property owners.

[Anonymous No.18505030]

>>18505015
>muh alienation
You're just as much making random widget for God knows who in a factory under communism.

[Anonymous No.18505042]

>>18502729
Marxism is a religion anon. When you understand that then the rest of the followers are more easy to understand.

[Anonymous No.18505043]

>>18505030
Under communism the workers would own the factory and have a better pay and benefits rather than all the wealth generated be taken by the factory owner under capitalism.

[Anonymous No.18505047]

>>18502790
>human biological essentialism
Huterrites. Israeli Kibbutzim. Primitive tribes. Early germanic cultures.

[Anonymous No.18505048]

>>18505043
Doesn't address the point I made. God, you fuckers are evasive.

[Anonymous No.18505051]

Forgot the Essenes.

[Anonymous No.18505056]

>>18505048
Yes it does, because the conditions for workers under communism would be better than under capitalism. Communism = worker empowerment, capitalism = worker exploitation.

[Anonymous No.18505057]

>>18505042
Of course for someone who haven't read Marx, it must appear as a religion. You often tend to mystify what you don't understand.

[Anonymous No.18505060]

>>18505056
>meme spouting parrot can't go off script

[Anonymous No.18505066]

>>18505056
But they weren't. And the "capitalism" of today grows more and more like the communism of the past. Hyper regulations, ideology in the workplace, "public relations" metaphysics... the snake devours its own tail. You talk about "serving the community" and other abstractions as if that is the pinnacle of human life, which it isn't.

[Anonymous No.18505075]

>>18505057
I've read Marx and most of the ideas were half-baked at best. But the constant "you must consult the book..." gives me the same vibes as Christians or Muslims have a theological debate. When you take a step back, you realize Marxism is just theology for his followers.

[Anonymous No.18505076]

>>18505042
>>18505057
Marxism is “religious” because it morally and practically has heritage to Christianity along with being life denying/slave morality. Read the genealogy of morals

[Anonymous No.18505077]

>>18505060
I just follow logic. You mad that I'm making sense?

[Anonymous No.18505086]

>>18504969
but my point was that protestantism (and by extension, capitalism) goes against your assertion that both are in service of reinforcing hierarchies. They'e both about importance of individual autonomy, whether that is in worship or in work.

[Anonymous No.18505088]

>>18505057
>Struggle against sin and the devil is replaced by class struggle and struggle against the bourgeoisie
>Eschatology (day of judgement) is replaced by the day of class abolition and true equality (the afterlife on earth)
>Priests are replaced by Marxist intellectuals and political commissars who ensure everyone believes the correct ideology
>Love thy neighbour
>all are equal in labor
>"False consciousness”: This is essentially socialism’s “demon possession”, whereby anyone who does not see things in the same way as Marxist philosophical assertions, is branded as “possessed by the devil”, or in this case “possessed by false consciousness”, “possessed by the bourgeousie.”

[Anonymous No.18505091]

>>18505075
No. It is because all the criticisms commonly put by idiots who haven't read Capital are directly fucking addressed in Capital.

[Anonymous No.18505093]

>>18505075
Quite a bit of financial experts have respect for Marx because a lot of his analysis was correct and his predictions came true. Marx was friends with Engels who was a factory owner. Obviously if a businessman can see the value in Marxist theory than it has weight.

[Anonymous No.18505094]

>>18502766
Communism is a theory for true equality amongst humans, but the problem is that humans were never meant to be equal in the first place.

[Anonymous No.18505096]

>>18505088
My great-grandfather's brother's entire family was shot in a ditch because he was a small land owner in Ukraine and didn't surrender his property when the inner-city Bolsheviks came and told everyone they were going to "communalize" the farmstead. This happened in many cases. Taking a step back, one realizes Marxism is just another extension of a theology based on utopianism - in other words it's a theology that exists solely to punish and extort.

[Anonymous No.18505097]

>>18505077
I said alienated labour would still exist under communism. You changed the subject

[Anonymous No.18505099]

>>18505088
Motherfuckers will parrot these tired-ass pundit talking points all day but can't see the reverse that Christianity is simply the secular state but for sexually insecure people.

[Anonymous No.18505106]

>>18505093
Businessmen are opportunists, "financial experts" are a meme (e.g. I think there was maybe a small handful of so called "financial experts" that predicted the 2008 crash). Marxist theory rests as a theology, hence why Marxist followers often form those "not Bible" study groups and tell non-believers to "consult the not Scripture". In the end, we see the same hyper spergouts that the Christians did when theyhyper-moralized the world. Mass graves, executions, round ups, annihilation of predecessing values, etc.

[Anonymous No.18505109]

>>18505097
I'd rather have less alienation under a communist society which was my point.

[Anonymous No.18505122]

>>18505096
>single family case study
>generalisation from I said this

I'm not saying your family deserved it, but if they're anything like you then they deserved it.

[Anonymous No.18505123]

>>18505106
Yeah man I'm sure you know more than Marx and financial experts. If you don't mind me asking? How much books did you write or how much wealth do you have? Since you are acting so high and mighty.

[Anonymous No.18505124]

>>18505109
>alienation
How is there "less alienation" under communist labor policy? Most of the communal farms that existed were built at the barrel of a gun, and in fact in many cases these served as kinds of punishments for those opposed to the doctrine. The only way to make any headway in the society was strict adherence to Party politic via "apparatchiks", which is what many did. The theory of communist labor rests solely on "active measures" (KGB specialized in these procedures). So many morons today in the West want to carry out a theology which was a catastrophic disaster for millions of people, I won't even pretend like I understand. The social collapse in the West had nothing to do with economics.

[Anonymous No.18505131]

>>18505097
Not surprisingly young marx uses alienation in an idealist individuate way about personal access to geist, and in Capital it is used in a rigorous historically materialist way about most hours of workers lives serving others.

Like other german idealists Marx was imprecise in categories and terms.

[Anonymous No.18505132]

>>18505109
That shit won't alleviate alienation, which is a funny doctrine with a Hegelian flavor.

[Anonymous No.18505135]

>>18505124
Mate. The bolsheviks didn't even pretend to be in socialism until after the GPW.

[Anonymous No.18505136]

>>18505122
They did "deserve it" according to Marxist theology. They weren't allowed. Uncountable mass graves exist in Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, and Poland today. Many of these are only now coming to light, but I don't think we will ever know the full extent.

>>18505123
I didn't claim to "know more than them" but there is no "science" to economics hence why there were no financial experts that were able to predict the 2008 crash, because it's a pseudoscience. Look at men like Bernie Madoff for your "economist" type.

[Anonymous No.18505142]

>>18505124
Pretty sure that guy is like 14 and has no historical context for how communism actually manifests

[Anonymous No.18505146]

>>18505135
I don't participate in theological Marxist debates on the correct expression of Marxist theology, I only understand how the impact of the theology played out in society. It wouldn't have made a difference. The surveillance state is something Marxists support, and Marxists today also justify imprisonment of dissidents, non-Party adherents, etc. There isn't really a point in splitting hairs over how one group interpreted Marxist theology over the other: the expression would have been largely the same for "the people". The stagnated mass of apparatchiks are an integral component to any socialist state, and the only way to support this is through use of intelligence agencies to ensure that dissidents are exterminated at the source. It's too routine to be coincidence, and it's something I have yet to hear a self-professed Marxist even deny.

[Anonymous No.18505147]

>>18505076
Nietzsche didn't understand. Morality, in Capitalism, is not the morality of the weak, but morality of the strong, masqueraded as the morality of the weak.
>Marxism is “religious” because it morally and practically has heritage to Christianity
Even if true, what's wrong with that? By the way, i'll say it again, and i'll say it again, early germanic tribes were not christian. They were communal nonetheless.

[Anonymous No.18505149]

>>18505142
I'm laughing when China surpasses the US and becomes a socialist state by 2050 meanwhile the US is still spending money on pointless wars while it's people live in poverty.

[Anonymous No.18505151]

>>18505122
It's not just his family. The Bolsheviks killed many landowners who refused to give up their land. Prior to the Revolution, Stolypin and the Russian land reform operation had allowed Russian peasants who were previously serfs to take out large loans to acquire their own properties. Many peasant families had proper, independent property for the first time in their entire lineage thanks to the reforms started by Tsar Alexander and continued by Stolypin. The Bolsheviks were absolutely not happy with this state of affairs: people who work the land having control over their own affairs, produce and property, which is why they basically just killed them all, and eventually collectivised Russian farmers into serfdom 2.0 under Stalin's collectivisation program. And this was after all the work Stolypin and the Tsars had done to give peasants a better life.

[Anonymous No.18505154]

>>18505136
>uncountable
Yeah nah cunt. We can do excess absent births. We can do excess absent births given rates of urbanisation (which reduces potential births). And right wing cunts like you have done such studies.

>but I don't think
Let me stop you there.
>but I don't think we will ever know the full extent.
OH MY GOD YOU'VE JUST DISCOVERED THE LIMITS OF INDUCTIVE KNOWLEDGE.

>>18505142
>how communism actually manifests
So are you a Wob, FAI, Autie, Hungary/Czech expert?

No. You've read a couple of intro texts on the Soviet Union, which were fixated on the CC as a government. Try Andrle.

[Anonymous No.18505160]

>>18505149
According to leading Marxist theologians, China is not really a socialist state at all. Regardless, the foundation for modern China rests on uncountable numbers of mass graves, destruction of historical heritage, etc. The only reason China is relevant, geopolitically, has more to do with the weakening of Western institutions than it does China becoming strong. Without Western markets, there is no Chinese industrial state. The current China is also engaged in colonialist exploitation in both Africa and Asia, so you're walking a strange line when you critique the West for apparent misgivings while blindly ignoring the realities of the Chinese economic situation. Besides, the social conditions in China are appalling, do you really want to live in such overcrowded monotone cities where expression of all kinds is tightly wound around security services and apparatchiks? That sounds like the end all of life to you? You're lying, and I even highly urge you to spend a few years in China.

[Anonymous No.18505161]

>>18505146
So which side of the Nove-Millar debate do you fall on?

You don't even know do you.

[Anonymous No.18505164]

>>18505154
>Someone is making a criticism of Marxism they must be "right wing cunts"
You betray your own theological fanaticism, something that was rather clear to us in the beginning of this conversation. This is precisely what I meant earlier. You are able to categorically place dissidents into categories, similar to the early Christian purges as "heretics", etc. Thus, you can justify the mass killings, imprisonments, genocides, and deportations by using other abstractions. It's common in fanatics, so this is expected behavior.

[Anonymous No.18505170]

>>18505147
>They were communal nonetheless.
Because they were united on ethnic and religious lines, and they were very small groups which didn't require intricate systems of administration. They also didn't have the culture to establish more sophisticated civilization, which is why they were largely subjugated by the superior Romans.

[Anonymous No.18505173]

>>18505164
Mate you are not interacting with the available texts. You are interacting with something inside yourself. Historians describe your action as eisegesis. I'd prefer the term wanker.

[Anonymous No.18505175]

>>18505160
>China is not really a socialist state at all.

Not yet, they are trying to develop AI and better their material conditions first. Also they are winning the AI race which has the US terrified.

[Anonymous No.18505176]

>>18505146
You don't get what Marxist thought is about.
>The surveillance state is something Marxists support, and Marxists today also justify imprisonment of dissidents, non-Party adherents
Okay. Read Karl Kautsky (compiler of Das Kapital volume 4) Here for you:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1919/terrcomm/ch08b.htm#s6

https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1934/bolshevism/ch04.htm

[Anonymous No.18505177]

>>18505161
Economic development in the Soviet Union was based on State sponsored terror, mass killings, arrests, and deportations. The industry was also used for the mass production of weapons to serve the regime which could then use aforementioned weapons to conquer various other localities and subjugate additional populations. Look at the ex-Soviet factory cities in rusting locations in the Caucuses for example. It was also not able to sustain itself long term, as we saw. Particularly because collectivization of labor simply produces an automatic apparatchik oligarchy, which is why every single ex-Soviet state either has or still has a serious and blatant oligarchy, mostly former Party members.

[Anonymous No.18505184]

>>18505164
I dont get how capitalists can take such a moralizing tone when their system has kids starving and shitting themselves to death by the millions every year

[Anonymous No.18505187]

>>18505176
>The motives of the Bolsheviks were certainly of the best.
Yes, it's abundantly clear what Marxist theology is about. This essay is the usual runaround attempt to suggest that Marxist theologians are somehow "clean" from the example set by the Bolsheviks, and yet simultaneously Marxist theologians promote the formation of vanguards to carry out policy and political will against dissidents. It's almost hysterical the glaring hypocrisy at times.

[Anonymous No.18505189]

>>18505170
>superior Romans.
Who already had problems of mass immigration in their time. If you don't see a pattern here, i don't know what to do.
Your problem is that you want all the benefit from Capitalism, without it's downsides. That doesn't work like that.

[Anonymous No.18505190]

>>18505184
>when their system has kids starving and shitting themselves to death
Where exactly does this exist in any Western country? The mass famines today are mostly in Africa, many of whom were supported in revolutionary actions by the former USSR. Not a single Western country is having mass starvation events, you are living in delusion.

[Anonymous No.18505191]

>>18505184
My system is fine, because I live in a first world country inhabited largely by intelligent white people. The only people starving and dying are drug addicts who are too irresponsible to hold down even emergency welfare payments.

[Anonymous No.18505195]

>>18505177
>Particularly because collectivization of labor simply produces an automatic apparatchik oligarchy,
So there was no nomenklatura BEFORE the ural-siberian method? …

You are not interacting with texts. You are making shit up. You are an eisegesist.

[Anonymous No.18505198]

>>18505190
How is third world capitalism not real capitalism.

[Anonymous No.18505200]

>>18505187
I am anti vanguard, as a libertarian Marxist. I'm particularly clear about that, and it's non negotiable. Every time we libertarian Marxists made a deal with vanguardists (bolsheviks, Stalnists), we got stabbed in the back. This is what happened to Nestor Makhno, to the POUM! (Georges Orwell hommage to revolutionary Catalonia, killed by both the bolsheviks and the republic), to the kronstadt rebellion, to the budapest commune (1956).
We have grew from these experience, and this time, we will never mix with the vanguardists.

[Anonymous No.18505202]

>>18505195
If your argument is, "favoritism existed before communism" than that isn't much of an argument at all. Nepotism exists today, sure, but no where on the scale that it existed under Marxist influenced organization. This is precisely why after the fall of the Soviet Union, the same apparatchik oligarchs who were running the show simply took the power over and that's what you have running countries like Belarus and Russia today.
>You are not interacting with texts
you mean I'm not deluding myself by reading theology.
>You are an eisegesist
Lots of -isms being thrown my way, I suppose if you throw enough one will stick and I can be deported to a gulag.

[Anonymous No.18505207]

>>18505191
>it's not my responsibility if it happens outside of the imaginary lines

[Anonymous No.18505215]

>>18504897
lmao what a dumb take
capitalism and communism are both just materialisms
chrsitanity is not materialism
thus christianity and capitalism are not allies, because they aim for different things
capitalism and communism both want to divide material goods and that is what they are concerned with, so they basically have more in common

[Anonymous No.18505216]

>>18505202
>you mean I'm not deluding myself by reading theology.
You just confessed that you didn't read Marx. For your information, Bolshevism was never communism:
https://libcom.org/forums/theory/lenin-acknowledging-intentional-implementation-state-capitalism-ussr-23032011

[Anonymous No.18505219]

>>18505200
>I am anti vanguard, as a libertarian Marxist.
Hypocritical. You can only enforce Marxist economic theory through constant surveillance to ensure that all obey the theology. You cannot have collectivization without core theology and an organizing body to enforce it. This is why it was normal on communal farms for arrests and executions to occur, because at some point people wanted more.
>POUM
A prime example of the futility of the position of the so called "libertarian Marxists". It's no different than the madness of that so called "Liberation Theology" in Christianity mostly in Latin America. It exudes tenets of guilt, tries to smoke screen the blame and reasons for failure, but ultimately promises the same end goal of "repressive tolerance" that forms the nucleus of any society based on Marxist principles.
>Budapest commune
ah a bunch of well bred college students who sold their own countrymen out to foreign powers and then couldn't understand why it all fell apart.

[Anonymous No.18505222]

>>18502766
Le blank slate
LMAO

[Anonymous No.18505228]

>>18505189
>Who already had problems of mass immigration in their time.
No, only later in the Empire, due to internal decline caused by, primarily, a lack of proper central authority which was capable of managing the Empire properly.
>Your problem is that you want all the benefit from Capitalism, without it's downsides.
Rome was not capitalist in the modern sense. Anyhow, I don't particularly want modern capitalism, I primarily see the Marxist critique of it as ultimately shallow and pointless because it has no worthwhile reference point to critique it from. You could argue it highlights "internal contradictions", but this still doesn't tell me anything I couldn't already intuitively see; that society eats itself into a classless mush from within when wealth is placed as the highest principle above everything else.

[Anonymous No.18505230]

>>18505219
How is the mass surveillance not here too?

[Anonymous No.18505231]

>>18505216
>You just confessed you never believed the theological writings on my Marxist theology forums!
That's what you meant to write. I told you before, I am not interested in talking about the linguistics of differences that Marxist theologians make, because the outcome of their doctrine is always universal. We see the same foundations being laid today in the West, with Western Marxists promoting the same exact run ups to mass arrests, gulags, and executions. Of course, Western Marxists thankfully do not possess the same backbone that Eastern Marxists of the 20th century did, otherwise we'd probably already be seeing middle class families lined up against walls and shot.

[Anonymous No.18505238]

>>18505230
There is, but ironically the surveillance state today was entirely born from the influence of the Soviet surveillance state. The same exact tactics are influenced in terms of "active measures" campaigns, hence why you are also seeing the communalization processes in the West. We are slowly being devoured by apparatchiks of our own in the West, with the same exact theological and ideological fanaticism dictating social policy. You are getting your equality, but I think there is an aspect of you that must realize it's nothing what your theologians wrote about...

[Anonymous No.18505253]

>>18505238
>Surveillance in the West today is a KGB active measure
Big claim. And you're vastly overstating the influence of Marxists today. They're pasty, frail nerds who aren't expropriating shit.

[Anonymous No.18505263]

>>18505219
It's not about enforcing anything. It's about finding an alternative not based on commodity and Capital accumulation now that the tendency of the rate of profit to fall made Capitalism impossible.
But i agree. The social body is not ready yet. In 20 years, after two more collapse, due to the TRPF combined with market saturation, each more disastrous, they will be. It's not even a choice to make. Ah there is the great reset alternative: communism for the 99.9%, but extreme ownership for the 0.1%, who own everything, and rent production to the neo-serfs. I'm not even afraid of it, because it won't work. People will choose decentralized, classless oriented production.

[Anonymous No.18505268]

>>18505231
> do not possess the same backbone that Eastern Marxists of the 20th century did, otherwise we'd probably already be seeing middle class families lined up against walls and shot.

That isn't backbone to me, that's injustice. All us western marxists have to do is let capitalist contractions play themselves out in history and the government will adjust itself accordingly to respond to these internal contradictions and eventually we will arrive at communism.

[Anonymous No.18505277]

>>18505228
>I don't particularly want modern capitalism
Either you want it, or you don't want it. There is no middle ground. You have to choose.

[Anonymous No.18505285]

>>18505277
Yes, I choose Roman corporatism.

[Anonymous No.18505287]

>>18505231
>with Western Marxists promoting the same exact run ups to mass arrests, gulags, and executions.
What the fuck are you takling about? I mean, you don't seem dumb at all, and are obviously not a GPT-3.
Read Marx, please. It is not what you think it is.

[Anonymous No.18505289]

>>18505253
It's not a big claim. The sheer amount of double agents that existed in the CIA was staggering. Many high level CIA agents were influenced by the KGB. This is precisely what later influenced the CIA and produced the agency that we have today. I think in 50-60 years, whenever the current system in the U.S. fails, collapses, or whatever - a lot of information about what the CIA have been up to since the 1980s internally will come to light. I think it already is in many ways.
>overstating the influence of Marxists today
Yes, I know, I don't mean to suggest that the Marxist theologists today are really a "threat". They had their chance in the 20th century and it was a disaster as we saw, but they continue to be used as the apparatchiks and useful morons today to carry out policy. I think ultimately we will see a similar liquidation of the "Western kulaks" e.g. the Western Middle Class, a group that even modern Marxists often confess need to be totally destroyed before any Marxist policy can be put into place. You have also probably noticed that the corporate work environment has taken on drastically ideological tones during the last 10-15 years, with "public relations" metaphysics dominating the mentality of inter-work relationships. This is absolutely an expression of Marxist labor practice. You must find Polish doctors who were alive and working during the "PRL" times in Poland, and they will explain to you how the same exact thing functioned then. At some point, the Party forced you to join and you simply had no alternative options. It was until the late 80s when the system had faltered to the point that people could be more bold in their opposition. Like you hear those stories from Russian cities of red scarf wearing Marxist teenagers coming home from school and getting their teeth kicked in in public parks, etc.

[Anonymous No.18505293]

>>18505277
It's a sad state of affairs that anti capitalism got absorbed into Marxism, which is an obvious cult.

[Anonymous No.18505298]

>>18505287
Yeah that guy is paranoid. For me I'm just going to sit back and watch the contradictions of capitalism play out and the government slowly inch towards communism

[Anonymous No.18505305]

>>18505268
>eventually we will arrive at communism
If you think there is a "science" to economics I highly urge you to read on Bernie Madoff or Epstein or even Genghis Khan. The "science" behind economics only leads to central planning (expression of Marxism) which itself falters to stagnation and unrealistic applications of economic "science" into human social relations. The most obvious form of this is commieblocks, and I don't even mean the commieblocks themselves but the surrounding landscapes. In every commieblock locality, you will see the usual paved, centrally planned sidewalks, and around these sidewalks are always dirt paths that people have walked on avoiding the sidewalks. Because the ideology and "science" behind Marxism is like the ridiculous sidewalk, the only way to get people to keep using it is through surveillance state, terror, and constant theological propaganda. That's not a system for long term sustainability and why the Soviet Union had serious problems when WW2 ended.

[Anonymous No.18505309]

>>18505298
The planet will self-destruct due to environmental problems and nuclear war before that happens, bro. Capitalism needs to be forcefully shut down if you even want humanity to survive in any state, let alone communism.

[Anonymous No.18505315]

>>18505289
Too much power attributed to the CIA. They're not demigods, and had little to do with the internet (which I realize was DARPA) and CCTV

[Anonymous No.18505317]

>>18505287
I have read some Marxist theology and the end point is always the exact same. I have attended Marxist theological meetings and talked with Marxists extensively. At some point, beyond the linguistics, they know what they are going to do to us.

>>18505298
>paranoid
You complain about "contradictions of capitalism" and have some belief this will lead "towards communism", and in some ways perhaps we are already at this point with companies like Amazon or Apple Inc, etc. I'm not actually sure you're ready for communism because it's more than likely you won't be one of the few who gets to "enjoy it", unless you become an apparatchik - but I'm afraid you don't possess the gravitas for that. We already have them in America. Families like the Clintons for example are apparatchiks and the types of people who will form the "Party" - not you. Marxist theology must be countered in every manifestation, or else we will be doomed just as they already doom our food supply, etc.

[Anonymous No.18505324]

>>18505315
The CIA are the furthest thing from demigods imaginable. My point is that the CIA was "dabbed on" by the KGB since the end of WW2 for a variety of reasons that aren't worth elaborating here. The end of all this was that the CIA learned from the KGB, who had bested them, and we see the influence of the intelligence agencies in the marketplace and especially the TV news. The apparatchiks of America are already fueling the new "proletariat" against the "kulaks" (white middle class). This was a similar strategy the KGB employed when they supported various Marxist revolutionary organizations in Africa, such as the ZANU.

[Anonymous No.18505327]

>>18505175
>develop AI
good luck doing the impossible
top kek

[Anonymous No.18505330]

>>18505175
>winning the AI race
Again, have you seen the reality of material conditions the majority of Chinese people live in? Do you seriously think that this is going to improve with "AI"...?

[Anonymous No.18505334]

>>18505305
Blah blah blah, anything your saying is just paranoia. I'm not like any of those people and if you think the US doesn't already central plan you're wrong. The internal contradictions of capitalism will play out in history and you and me don't have a say in the matter. The communism of the future will look like star trek, not what you're saying. Either that or economic collapse will cause us to return to anarcho-primitivism. Those are the two outcomes of history; Star trek utopia or anarcho-primitivism. I don't have to do anything to cause this. It is the only two logical outcomes to history.

[Anonymous No.18505340]

>>18505334
>paranoia
There is no paranoia. The difference between us is that you deny the historical track record of Marxist economic application.
>The communism of the future will look like star trek
You sound incredibly young, so I think you will grow out of your fanaticism at some point.

[Anonymous No.18505341]

>>18505285
>Corporatism.
Capitalism liquidated the corporations in the 18th century (E.G: loi le Chapelier during the french revolution). Capitalism did this because it wanted a free market, without any corporatist obstacle, thus allowing the Capital to exploit the wage workers without any limits.
We went past corporatism, it is not to go back to it. Evolution of productive forces don't go backward.

[Anonymous No.18505353]

>>18505340
So given enough time what do you think is going to happen? It's either utopia or collapse. Those are the only two options for the outcome of history.

[Anonymous No.18505359]

>>18505327
Cope
>>18505324
Not sure what that has to do with surveillance

[Anonymous No.18505372]

>>18505341
>You can't go backwards
You've swallowed the idea that Marxist historiography is a natural law

[Anonymous No.18505375]

>>18505298
>For me I'm just going to sit back and watch the contradictions of capitalism play out and the government slowly inch towards communism
That's what will most likely happen. Only there most likely will be a decentralized government.
>I have attended Marxist theological meetings
Marxist leninists, Trostkyst, Stalinist, are not the same thing as libertarian Marxist.
> they know what they are going to do to us.
Who does what to who? I thought the Capitalist superclass have some dark plans for the world proletariat.
> unless you become an apparatchik
Your vision of communism is totally Bolshevism, which was State Captialism, if you had read my previous link. I'll repost (last time):
https://libcom.org/forums/theory/lenin-acknowledging-intentional-implementation-state-capitalism-ussr-23032011

>Families like the Clintons for example are apparatchiks and the types of people who will form the "Party"
Okay so now Clintons are the classless dictatorship of the proletariat. We don't want a party, we don't want a vanguard. That's all in your fearful head.

[Anonymous No.18505385]

>>18505340
>deny the historical track record of Marxist economic application.
You mean the Israeli Kibbutzim? It worked pretty well, and was peaceful.

[Anonymous No.18505393]

>>18503414
This is something Xavier Marquez mentions in his blog (abandonedfootnotes). He points to Ernst Kantorowicz's The King's Two Bodies (1957):
>The Body Natural
>The Body Politic
This dualism, combined with Max Weber's Charismatic Justification for Authority (1922/58), you get the Cult of Personality described in Tumarkin's Lenin Lives! (1997), where Lenin is both Exemplar (to be emulated) and Personification (of the proletariat) - leading to doctrinal conflict in 1924, when Lenin's body becomes a commodity fetish. It's all so stupid.

[Anonymous No.18505395]

>>18505317
>You complain about "contradictions of capitalism" and have some belief this will lead "towards communism

I'm not complaining, I know it is going to happen, it's only a matter of time. History just needs to play out, basically all I do is meme and point out things that are happening to change people's minds, like how Blackrock is buying up all the houses. Like "wow isn't it funny how our capitalist financial intuitions are trying to make us all poor and dependent on them?" That's all I have to do.

[Anonymous No.18505398]

>>18504852
>The main struggle of today for many people is living in an exploitative capitalist system.
>exploitative
Again, with the moralizing bullshit, you don’t understand Nietzsche. Also, capitalism isn’t a “system” it’s a negative conclusion of economics, meaning it’s what happens when an economy is not regulated or controlled, it’s the lack of a system, not one itself. Thus, capitalism has no values, which is why it can support tranny shit one day then destroy unions another without seeing the contradiction between the two forms of social justice. There are no values to be overcome.

[Anonymous No.18505410]

>>18505219
>ah a bunch of well bred college students who sold their own countrymen out to foreign powers and then couldn't understand why it all fell apart.
It was working class youth from csepel.

Jesus do you deliberately avoid learning?

[Anonymous No.18505411]

>>18505398
> Thus, capitalism has no values
That's true, and that's why it destroyed corporatism, and any obstacle in it's way, until we abolish it.

[Anonymous No.18505413]

>>18504897
>You realize that America put "In God We Trust" on money to fight against atheist, Communist USSR during the Cold War right?
This only happened because Christianity was a dominant cultural force in America at the time, it could have happened with literally any religion.
>Christianity teaches people to listen and to fear authority and overall to enforce hierarchies.
Read the sermon on the mount. Jesus is the west’s first instance of an inversion of the reigning contemporary values. Christianity is the slave revolt of morality that glorifies weakness and demonizes power as “corrupt and greedy, sinful”. Christianity and socialism have the same spirit.

[Anonymous No.18505420]

>>18505398
It is a system, mainly one that will die of it's own excesses because it benefits the most greedy, narcissistic and psychopathic of people. That's a system that will fail own its own eventually.

[Anonymous No.18505422]

>>18505385
>You mean the Israeli Kibbutzim? It worked pretty well, and was peaceful.
Based on violent dispossession of predecessing people and one of the best security services in the world.... lol..........

[Anonymous No.18505426]

>>18505413
Yeah man that's why Bill Gates is protestant and Donald Trump is presbyterian, they have slave morality dude.

[Anonymous No.18505431]

>>18505413
Is this a BioLeninism tenet? Because it sounds like one.

[Anonymous No.18505435]

>>18505420
Antisemitic post

[Anonymous No.18505438]

>>18505341
>We went past corporatism, it is not to go back to it. Evolution of productive forces don't go backward.
Capitalism is not an evolution, it is a degeneration.
Of course we can rebuild, it does however require discipline, effort and strong, wise leadership.

[Anonymous No.18505439]

>>18502790
>Unequality can be better explained by human biodiversity than muh historical materialism.
Oh yes, truly the apex of evolution.

[Anonymous No.18505444]

>>18505426
Come on now, are you really that stupid, believing they honestly believe?

[Anonymous No.18505446]

>>18504883
>nothing he says is quite as it seems
Yes it is, only people who disagree with what he says say otherwise.

[Anonymous No.18505456]

>>18505413
>Christianity is the slave revolt of morality that glorifies weakness and demonizes power as “corrupt and greedy, sinful
It's always fascinating how traditionalist glorify hierarchy, except when they don't have it. There is a ton of hierarchy in our current world. From the billionaire, to intelligence agencies, Nato, the european commission, etc...
What's your problem exactly? That YOU don't have power. Of course, in your hand, this power would be wise, altruistic, etc...
Unfortunately for you, as i think, we are past power. People don't want power anymore (except the boomers who are getting old).

[Anonymous No.18505463]

>>18505439
America is straight up IQ based meritocracy.

[Anonymous No.18505464]

>>18505438
Dialectics don't work this way. It's not Thesis, antitheses, thesis, anthitesis etc.
It's Thesis, antithesis, syntheses.
>wise leadership
There is no wise leadership.

[Anonymous No.18505476]

>>18505464
Dialectics don't exist.
>There is no wise leadership.
Yes, there is. If you've ever been in a military unit in combat you will very soon know the difference between good and bad leadership.

[Anonymous No.18505480]

>>18505435
I didn't say anything about Jews, Jews, just like any other race can have good or bad people. Some jews I like are Robert Sapolsky, Philip Glass, Steven Pinker, Noam Chomsky, and Bernie Sander. I mean psychologically capitalism rewards psychopathic people regardless of race.

[Anonymous No.18505484]

>>18505446
Dude the master riddler is Kierkegaard.
You can't grok him, he's posting behind seven pseudonyms.

[Anonymous No.18505488]

>>18505480
Yeah but they got to 30% of billionaires somehow.

[Anonymous No.18505490]

>>18505464
>Dialectics don't work this way. It's not Thesis, antitheses, thesis, anthitesis etc.
Read Klages

[Anonymous No.18505497]

>>18505476
>good is wise
Talk to plato you stupid fuck.

[Anonymous No.18505498]

>>18505431
Is bioleninism is the systematization of incel resentment? If so, then i am not one by any stretch. Interesting though because earlier I was pacing around thinking about how human sexuality is a highly selective market-eugenics

[Anonymous No.18505502]

>>18505476
>you will very soon know the difference between good and bad leadership.
So you flip a coin? Even classical trad authors, like Maurras, or Bainville, admit that when the king is good, everything goes fine. When the king is bad, it's a disaster.
No more of this. Decentralized power.
>>18505476
Hermetic principle of polarity? Anyone?

[Anonymous No.18505517]

>>18505456
You're joking, right?
>People don't want power anymore (except the boomers who are getting old).
A party without pedigree (Bolsheviks) is still a party. The appeal of Leninism is the degree of status ascribed to low-status individuals (hence the progressive stack), which is why we see the contradictory veneration as described here >>18505393 - power is still quite clearly contested.

[Anonymous No.18505518]

>>18505502
>So you flip a coin?
Leaders emerge through their own strength and inherent superiority. People are drawn to them magnetically, because they radiate confidence, decisiveness and higher intellect. "Decentralizing power" is exactly what caused the degeneration into capitalism, soon we will have no central authority and we will be "free" to be entirely powerless and enslaved to whatever social calcification emerges in that final state where everyone is equally powerless.

[Anonymous No.18505521]

>>18505502
>Hermetic principle of polarity? Anyone?
Honestly at this stage I'm just here to post Kierkegaard. There's almost no discussion worthy of comment.

[Anonymous No.18505525]

Naive dialecticism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_dialecticism

[Anonymous No.18505527]

>>18505488
Their culture is different. They value education, verbal intelligence, money, and hard work more than a lot of other races.

[Anonymous No.18505528]

>>18505498
Human sexuality is not selective at all, at least not in current times. At best, you could argue it favors the most stupid who forget to use birth control.

[Anonymous No.18505546]

>>18505518
>Leaders emerge through their own strength and inherent superiority.
Do you know that the early german tribes didn't really have chiefs? Do you know that in the primitive tribe, the chief only has ceremonial power?
What is your personification of power, Julius Caesar?
>Decentralizing power" is exactly what caused the degeneration into capitalism
No Capitalism is not decentralizing power. It's giving power to money and commodity.
Again, there is a shit ton of power in Capitalism. Only you trads don't have it, so you seethe.

[Anonymous No.18505548]

>>18505528
Women, in any society that doesn’t condone rape, are the ones who decide who has sex and who doesn’t. Women evolved to be this way to mate and reproduce with the most fit men who could provide for them the most. All relationships are transactional, women do it for resources, men for sex.

[Anonymous No.18505553]

>>18505546
>Again, there is a shit ton of power in Capitalism. Only you trads don't have it, so you seethe.
if commies were rich they wouldn’t be commies

[Anonymous No.18505561]

>>18502729
biological dimorphism =/= gender essentialism
defining things into rigid 'essences' is generally not scientifically or philosophically sound.
both Nietzsche and Marx know this.

[Anonymous No.18505562]

>>18505521
Sure. All ancient tradition know about the principle of polarity, also named naive dialectics, however, you trads ignore it.
In a way, you are the sons of the enlightenment movement, which was not dialectical, but metaphysical. Metaphysics: a study of static objects, which never evolve. Stay the same. Dialectics: the world is movement, constant change. evolution. It's perfectly understandable why, as a metaphysician, you want to go back to a idealized past.

[Anonymous No.18505571]

>>18505553
That's were you are wrong.

[Anonymous No.18505575]

>>18505546
>No Capitalism is not decentralizing power.
Yes it is, compared to what came before it. Power was centralized in the form of land in the hands of the aristocracy and/or royalty. Capitalism, through the spread of certain technologies and other destabilizing influences, decentralizes this power-base by enabling the massive expansion of the bourgeois underclass through more liquid capital which is then eventually able to subvert and erase the aristocracy altogether. Rinse and repeat until you have plebeian, classless communism where everyone is equally worthless. Of course, this isn't suggesting that capitalism is entirely decentralized, which you'd understand if you properly read my posts.
>Do you know that the early german tribes didn't really have chiefs?
This was a similar case with the Etruscans (native non-Aryan Europeans), who were eventually eradicated by the Indo-European/Aryan Roman migrants who emphasized hierarchy and authority. In any case, I'm not really aware of any German tribes which didn't have chieftains; in all of their mythology, masculine leader figures tend to stand out as the heroes, which is generally indicative of the attitude of their society.

[Anonymous No.18505580]

>>18505548
Women aren't that selective though. Even the ugliest guy, provided he doesn't have a repulsive incel mentality, can go out and easily get laid.

[Anonymous No.18505581]

>>18505548
This is a schematic for population-level analysis, not a description of interaction (however it might seem to the unsexed) at the level of a node.

[Anonymous No.18505585]

>>18505553
Yeah man that's why leftists that are wealthy from book sales or media sales suddenly become capitalist.

[Anonymous No.18505595]

>>18505575
>hands of the aristocracy and/or royalty.
So much for the aristocracy, who were partaking in Capitalism, way before the french and english revolution.
Also, this is irrelevant to the thread subject, but it's been centuries since these aristocratic cunts have made real wars.
We, the proletarians, fought, in our last generations. We, proletarians fought during the franco prussian war (1870), the WW1, WW2. Americans fought during the Vietnam war.
I can't stand people who pretend coming from noble bloodlines, when it's been centuries their family never saw a real battlefield.

[Anonymous No.18505597]

Marx was mostly correct, he just failed to realize that humans will not be emancipated from capital, but capital will be emancipated from humanity

[Anonymous No.18505610]

>>18505595
The French and English aristocracies in a way received the fruits of their activities. I don't feel pity for them. It's just a shame. The Germans, as tends to fit their stereotype, were more forward-looking and industrious, and so lasted longer, but ultimately for naught given how history turned out.
>>18505597
A cultured Ellul reader?

[Anonymous No.18505619]

>>18505610
>A cultured Ellul reader?
aren't you glad i'm here? :)

[Anonymous No.18505644]

>>18505610
>A cultured Ellul reader?
No, Nick Land

[Anonymous No.18505647]

>>18505610
>English aristocracies
English crown today is Capitalists larping as Queen.

[Anonymous No.18505657]

>>18502729
What is it with you kind of people and just designating some Anglo shit term to appropriate German philosophy?
Biological essentialism; what is the even supposed to mean? I can imagine something it could mean, but you will have twisted the words that the notion described to the two terms and by their immediacy is entirely lost; just say what you mean, we read here, this is not a paper. Biological essentialism: we are essentially biological as human beings but this does not describe everything we are, though it is accurate in that we are predisposed to some things; what fucking insight. The whole point of German philosophy are not these facts, these factums of data that posit a position, but the lyricism, explanation and those sentences in between points; only someone who's never read Kant could cling to facts over Notions and Being that much.

You Americans all have this issue. It's all just -isms, -isms and dogmatic label, a sort of labelism. That's going to be the end of you; this whole gender business and genderism is a product of the same thing. I don't think someone with the biological predispotion of the a cultural organism like that of your cultural background could come to a language which may be able to solve any of your issues.

>Are you more of a Conservative or more of a Liberal person?
>Well, I would ascribe myself to belonging to a sort of Conservatvism local to my Texan ethos, with some socialist elements of a Pepetian characteristics; though diametrically opposed the tension prove through the dialect of these outright incompatible notions does evoke a progressive tilt, that is what I mean when I speak of progressivism, which is the only way we can really go forward in the humanistic project of Americanism.

Suck a cock, please, and leave this place.

[Anonymous No.18505673]

>>18505463
>America is straight up IQ based meritocracy.
unless these guys IQ is 1000000 I don't see how IQ has anything yo do with it.

[Anonymous No.18505689]

>>18502729
>I think Marx's critic of Capitalism is the greatest ever conceived but his prescriptive thoughts are so out of touch and not compatible with how reality actually works
Good sign someone hasn't read Marx

[Anonymous No.18505694]

>>18505689
>Good sign someone hasn't read Marx
not OP but whose do you prefer?

[Anonymous No.18505696]

>>18502729
>Biological essentialism vindicates Nietzsche
Nietzsche was a naturalist?

[Anonymous No.18505705]

>>18502863
I thought hegelianism of all kinds was quasi religious and spiritual by nature. Marx proposed and ultimate explanation for all things. I don't see irony, just a shift in the ontology of religiousness that grew out of Kant

[Anonymous No.18505717]

>>18504897
Extremely one dimensional thinking

[Anonymous No.18505728]

>>18505359
After you are done seething you go ahead and prove that AI is possible at all. Citing sci-fi literature doesn't count.
I'll wait.

[Anonymous No.18505751]

>>18505728
>prove that AI is possible at all
Intelligence exists. of course, you have to be intelligent yourself to understand how that proves it, so I'm sorry, you'll have to wait for a long while

[Anonymous No.18505755]

>>18505580
>Even the ugliest guy, provided he doesn't have a repulsive incel mentality, can go out and easily get laid.
There’s a limit to this. Personality and confidence helps and looks are not the end all be all as lookismfags with cope with but there’s only so much “personality” can do. The only way an extremely unattractive guy (not just face) can get laid is if he has money, because women value the resources a man can give to them above all.

[Anonymous No.18505764]

>>18505585
>get rich by doing thing
>don’t stop doing thing because it made you rich
yes

[Anonymous No.18505768]

>>18505463
jesus christ do yanks actually believe that?

[Anonymous No.18505783]

>>18505585
>leftists that are wealthy from book sales
Becoming rich from non fiction books is extremely rare. Also, reminder that the author profit is around 6% to 10% of the book price. You have to sell an enormous amount of books, in order to get rich.
>media sales
I despise all media sales.

[Anonymous No.18505795]

>>18505751
So you can't explain because it is not possible. Cope and Seethe, you will never be a woman.

[Anonymous No.18505803]

marxism retroactively refutes itself;
learn history

[Anonymous No.18505804]

>>18502790
>Unequality can be better explained by human biodiversity
It doesn't, though?

[Anonymous No.18505811]

>>18505446
And Nietzsche himself would ridicule you for passively agreeing with everything he says without question. If you don't take everything he says with a grain of salt, you'll be lead astray in the same way that all docile worshippers are. Even the master of suspicion is not above suspicion.

[Anonymous No.18505818]

>>18505795
>i can't understand it so it's nonsense
oh cool, this take again.
Intelligence exists in the depths of the ocean you retard. it has a propensity to just emerge. you're braindead if you think actively pushing toward that goal won't result in the emergence of artificial intelligence. you're also severely retarded if you think the singularity hasn't already ocurred

[Anonymous No.18505826]

>>18505811
I never said I agree with everything he said (which I don't), I said trying to assert that Nietzsche was solely aligned with your own views (ie anything you disagree with was "just ironic") is pathetic.

[Anonymous No.18505836]

>>18504937
>Communism also depends on people being subservient on a far larger scale because the macro economy and small businesses need to be micromanaged by some central committee and religion and ''bourgeousie'' elements need to be tightly suppressed, without mass subservience commies would be constantly revolting against each other and nothing would ever get done.
I guess that doesn't apply to capitalism, right? In capitalism, workers and consumers are just WILLING to conform to the status quo, they're not """subservient"""

[Anonymous No.18505849]

>>18504981
>So I would still worship God because God is the ultimate purpose of our life and how we justify our moral claims. Struggling against temporal problems, politics, economics and environmental stuff are secondary issues.
So, if you're a Christian, you more or less don't care about overthrowing tyrants?
Damn, it seems christianity favours dictatorship after all... who would have guessed that? I thought it was just a coincidence that they still have a theocracy in 2021...

[Anonymous No.18505888]

>>18505705
Hegel's framework was very much quasi-religious (see Peterson-level schematics), which is why Schelling was deployed in 1841 to combat the Hegelianism of the student-body at the Berlin Academy (Engels was an attendee).
>"It will be our business to follow the course of his [Schelling's] thinking and to shield the great man's [Hegel's] grave from abuse. We are not afraid to fight."
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/help/1841.htm

[Anonymous No.18505902]

>>18505888
Very interesting. I'm just finally making it out of modernism and into German Idealism. Thanks for the link

[Anonymous No.18505910]

>>18502729
>Biological essentialism vindicates Nietzsche and refutes Marx thoroughly
Nope.
>his prescriptive thoughts are so out of touch and not compatible with how reality actually works - hence why Nietzsche wins.
So you've never read Marx then, got it.

[Anonymous No.18505923]

>>18505888
>marxists.org
the fact this exists makes my sides go into orbit.

[Anonymous No.18505936]

>>18502863
>Marx being a staunch atheist
Actually he stopped giving a shit about that in like 1844.
>I thought hegelianism of all kinds was quasi religious and spiritual by nature.
Marx' whole thing in the mid-19th century was a break with Hegelianism and ideology in general, culminating with German Ideology.
>Marx proposed and ultimate explanation for all things
He absolutely did not and emphasized context.

[Anonymous No.18505937]

>>18502729
You are correct, but Marxists will never admit it. They will never acknowledge that they both ended on rather opposite political conclusions (Marx would like a more "democratic" future while Nietzsche would like to rebuild an aristocracy out of the ashes of democracy).

Marx and Freud are the ones who are the pair and Nietzsche's unique positivism and Overman power-based value system stands opposed to both of them. They were closer to being de Sade's relatives than Nietzsche's.

[Anonymous No.18505938]

>Marxists "rebels"
>all backed by international security services
>completely owned by neoliberals
>yet still helps neoliberals deplatform and antagonize anyone who questions them
>"if we just hold firm the neoliberals will beat themselves and we will win comrades! oorah!!!"
contemporary marxists destroy actual resistance to neoliberalism, still trying to sell people a philosohpy that has led to mass graves across the globe.

[Anonymous No.18505945]

>>18505923
You shouldn't underestimate Marxists. They have a legacy nearly two centuries in the making. It has very strong roots in German Idealism which revolutionized the world. It then had significant philosophical exposition and practice which continues interrupted to this day. I know your average tranny twitter marxist is a joke, but Marx's legacy extends well beyond that and is here to stay for quite a while longer

[Anonymous No.18505952]

>>18505945
They serve the neoliberal state, of course they'll be used for awhile yet.

[Anonymous No.18505969]

>>18505945
I don't think so, Marxism is dead and the only people still clinging onto it are burnt out professors and sycophants. Take "CHAZ" for example which was the big chance that Marxists had to form a kind of contemporary "commune" (in the legacy of the Paris commune, etC) and within a day it completely collapsed. It turned not only into total chaos, but because modern Marxists are so caught up in identity politics it rapidly turned into bizarre black worship with white Marxists kneeling down and saying quotes from DAS KAPITAL to black warlords who wound up running the "commune" until it was destroyed. All this was ALLOWED to happen by the Feds.

[Anonymous No.18505976]

>>18505938
>all backed by international security services
Actually, I'm pretty sure those are the guys that organize coups against them and fund religious maniacs to fight them in proxy wars (see: Liberia, Afghanistan)

[Anonymous No.18505998]

>>18505976
They do both. It's not a surprise at all that most of the Marxists from groups like the Weather Underground are all working for the Feds today. Like how Susan Rosenberg, who went on terror bombing campaigns against white working class Americans is now helping to finance black Marxist death squads, etc.

[Anonymous No.18506000]

>>18505826
>I said trying to assert that Nietzsche was solely aligned with your own views (ie anything you disagree with was "just ironic") is pathetic.
You mean exactly like what you're doing? You believe in biological determinism, and are misappropriating Nietzsche in order to justify it. You don't even know what I believe, outside of the fact that I don't believe that Nietzsche was a biological determinist. My own views have never come into it, I have not asserted ANY of my positions, merely contested your illegitimate use of Nietzsche.

[Anonymous No.18506010]

>>18505976
I mean come on John Brennan served in the Communist Party USA for years. Guy went onto to run the Feds during a time when radical Marxist groups started appearing all over the country fueling blacks into rioting and destroying white working class Americans. They're going to copy the Mugabe Model it looks like for Americans.

[Anonymous No.18506014]

>>18505969
These are people with influence, have you forgotten how Marx's system parasitizes? Read Rudi Dutschke (Gramsci and Bloch) and Althusser.

[Anonymous No.18506020]

>>18506010
Marxists must exterminate the white middle class in America in order to use the blacks to work as the revolutionary vanguard for the next chapter. This is why you see all major neoliberal megacorps supporting CIA glowops efforts pushing LGBTWQJZ+ and other extremist ideologies while totally demonizing the average white American, etc. Once the white working class is exterminated or in camps they will form the Party oligarchy run by apparatchiks like the Clintons and Bush families and that will be the end of America as we mostly know it. Probably next 10 years unless there's a coup but I doubt it, most of the American military are completely psyopped - look at what they did in DC for example.

[Anonymous No.18506032]

>>18506020
> look at what they did in DC for example.
There was a significant number of active and retired military and law enforcement who partook in the January 6th DC protest. We have some hope. They just need to stop trusting the plan

[Anonymous No.18506034]

>>18506014
>Rudi Dutschke
I know about him, he inspired many Marxists today by harnessing blacks to use as revolutionary shock troopers to terrorize and destroy the white middle class. Talk to any university Marxist and they call all whites "kulaks", they know in order to push the new Soviet Union they have to completely wipe out the white middle class for mostly one reason:
1. White middle class america still owns the largest share of actual assets. Most of the Marxists money and their handlers is in numerics, not actual assets like land, property, businesses, etc. So once they exterminate and "re-distribute" aka hand all the businesses to the oligarch Party apparathciks like they did in the USSR then they can push the usual Commie lie making money off the mass graves of innocent people.

[Anonymous No.18506041]

>>18506032
Jan 6 DC was a completely glowop event. I don't mean to say that there weren't honest people that went there, but it was totally used by the CIA to push further the narrative. If you watch videos, black security guards just let the protestors right into the building and allowed them to run amok for awhile before they left. Then immedatiely afterward on que, every single American news outlet and Marxist online poster started raving about "white middle class nationalist domestic terrorism" etc etc. This is why Biden went onto say (another apparatchik) that "white domestic terrorism is the number 1 threat to America" even though America had 6 sustained months of some of the most violent rioting in its history with over a billio ndollars in damages and many lives taken for the BLM marxist movement (totally bought out by neoliberals but marxists and their black shock troopers were the ones running the riots edged on by Feds).

[Anonymous No.18506046]

>>18506032
>>18506041
Also note several things that happened behind the scenes:
Apparatchik Chairman Pelosi signed the Chief of the DC National Guard (a black) as her personal security guard. They did fail though, because thankfully the National Guard is finally starting to leave DC, although the Marxists wanted to use them as a permanent security force in DC to fortify a base of power. gonnna be a wild decade.

[Anonymous No.18506047]

>>18505936
>>Marx being a staunch atheist
>Actually he stopped giving a shit about that in like 1844.
Marx believe in the divine, if one bothers to read the Theses on Feuerbach, he'll understand. However, he believed that all mysticism resolves in social practice.
>>18505937
Nietzsche has no clue at all of the base superstructure dynamics. It appears he thinks society is created entirely in the heads of men. Productive forces and immediate needs (food, shelter) have no importance. We create society, as a music composer creates a song, writing music notes in a music score.

[Anonymous No.18506056]

>>18506041
Yes yes I know all of that already. What really pissed me off the most was every "conservative" boomer tried to claim it was an antifa false flag and that real patriots never protest. My expectations low, but I still take a dose of hopium here and there

[Anonymous No.18506065]

>>18506056
Realize that most "conservative" elements in America are Trotskyites like Paul Wolfowitz or Bill Kristol. I'm sure you already know all about the so called "father of neoconservativism". These guys seized power during the Bush administration and have been leading it ever since.

[Anonymous No.18506067]

>>18506047
>It appears he thinks society is created entirely in the heads of men.
Because it is, and erasing our advanced knowledge of nutrition, physical training, and education accumulated over millennia would be tantamount to destroying Western civilization and culture across the board.

[Anonymous No.18506082]

>>18506065
I've heard that but never recieved any details. Can you direct me to a source that elaborates on this?

[Anonymous No.18506091]

>>18502766
Because it is and no marxist has ever refuted it without sophistry

[Anonymous No.18506098]

>>18502863
he was just a regular atheist. he already poked fun at staunch atheists when he was like 23:
>Finally, I desired that, if there is to be talk about philosophy, there should be less trifling with the label “atheism” (which reminds one of children, assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogy man), and that instead the content of philosophy should be brought to the people.

and the people who turned communism into religion did it completely on purpose. they were anti-communist counter-revolutionaries. this wasn't part of any Marxist "project", but of the usual bourgeois myth-building project that aims to create a popular ideology to mobilize the masses to serve the bourgeois state. it's the classic: "the feudal state was concerned with aristocratic privilege, while our brand new bourgeois state is concerned with the good of the entire people!", just under a particular form that involves more red color than usually.

they didn't overcome religion, but preserved it, because their aim wasn't to overcome bourgeois society, but to preserve it, as well as to realize capitalist industrialization programs. the communist guise served them solely as an ideological justification of the super-exploitation of the proletariat that this required. and for some lesser players communism meant even less: it was mostly just a symbol of their affiliation with the Russian imperialist camp over the American one. communist internationalism thereby became disemboweled and the remains were used as an ideological rationalziation for the network of subservient relations of smaller states towards Russia, engaged in capitalist competition with the West.

[Anonymous No.18506099]

>>18506034
You totally don't understand the difference between bolshevism/vanguard communism, and libertarian Marxism.
Great reset is basically Stalin's five years plan (= bolshevism= some neo-feudalism).
Dictatorship of the proletariat (libertarian marxism) is proletarians abolishing class based society.

[Anonymous No.18506120]

>>18502729
They read one Marx manual...

Look anon Marx tried and failed to understand pre capitalistic civilizations and Nietzsche wrote a lot of bs about a persian prophet.

They don't read like reality they read like 19th century outlaws

[Anonymous No.18506133]

>>18506082
I don't know of any "one source" that thoroughly describes this, but you have to go to the root of "American Conservatism" with guys like James Burnham for example who went from a staunch active Trotskyite to suddenly a "classical liberal" beginning in part the Neocon movement that would take over the "conservative" that had already been in place (from the WASPs mostly).
Max Shachtman another Trotsksyite who suddenly became a "Neocon"... Irving Kristol same story with him. The whole Neocon movement originates with Trotskyites who then organized under the banner of "Neocons" and completely hijacked opposition to neoliberalism, they manifested total control in the Bush era. Leo Strauss is antoher that comes to mind.

[Anonymous No.18506141]

>>18506099
>libertarian Marxism
Nice oxymoron

[Anonymous No.18506144]

>>18506099
It doesn't make a god damn difference because if there even exists such a laughable LARP as "libertarian Marxism" then its going to go the way of Spain for them and they're going to get shot by Marxists or they're going to wind up cooperating with them to blow up white middle class americans, which they've been doing in America since the 60s terror bombing campaigns etc. Because at the end of the day they'll need to decide if they'll figtht for the Marxists or they'll fight for the masses and Marxists always stick to their own.

[Anonymous No.18506164]

>>18506020
>>18505324
>>18506091
Classless Primitive tribes are sophists. Classless Plains indians are sopĥist.
Look, you bend the knee to commodity, 12000 years ago. Someone said: this surplus value is mine, and people like you, accepted it.
12000 years later, here we are. And we do not accept it. Never really had. From Jesus Christ, to the Essenes, to the peasans revolts, 1848 revolution, paris commune (1871), Revolutionary Catalonia (1936), Nestor Makhno (1920). Recently, occupy wall street, the spanish los indignados, the yellow vests.
We don't want your hierarchy.
>I know about him, he inspired many Marxists today by harnessing blacks to use as revolutionary shock troopers to terrorize and destroy the white middle class. Talk to any university Marxist and they call all whites "kulaks", they know in order to push the new Soviet Union they have to completely wipe out the white middle class for mostly one reason:
1. White middle class america still owns the largest share of actual assets. Most of the Marxists money and their handlers is in numerics, not actual assets like land, property, businesses, etc. So once they exterminate and "re-distribute" aka hand all the businesses to the oligarch Party apparathciks like they did in the USSR then they can push the usual Commie lie making money off the mass graves of innocent people.
Whoever buy that this isn't a psy-op and think that this is true classless Marxist has reality warp issues.

[Anonymous No.18506174]

>>18506082
https://russia-insider.com/en/case-911-was-israeli-attack-us-overwhelmingly-strong-ron-unz/ri24931
This has been mostly purged by Marxist brigading from the internet but it's a good read by Ron Unz who gets labelled an antisemite etc so you know he's speaking some truth. The article itself is reassesing 9/11 but he talks a lot about Neocons in it and mentions several names and gives yo usome further reading as he's talking. It's worth the read anyway.

[Anonymous No.18506182]

>>18506133
https://www.antiwar.com/justin/j061303.html

I just read this neat little article detailing all the neocons in the Bush admin behind the Iraq War. This has filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding. It definitely explains the split in the American elite. All Marxist jews but with slightly different bents. I wonder how much of this carried over into the Trump admin

[Anonymous No.18506184]

>>18506144
>Because at the end of the day they'll need to decide if they'll figtht for the Marxists or they'll fight for the masses and Marxists always stick to their own.
Say that to Georges Orwell when he fought in the anti-Stalinist POUM!

[Anonymous No.18506189]

>>18506164
I like how you comprise an entire separate continent with thousands of developed civilizations to one gesture of one tribe once.

[Anonymous No.18506192]

>>18506182
Yep great article it's referenced in this article on 9/11>>18506174 as well I believe if my memory is correct.

Trump was no neocon, at least I dont think so. He was more opportunistic but the neocons if you recall all turned on him. They were the guys like Paul Wolfowitz etc making scathing attacks against him and were the guys pushing back Trumpism and populism in general because that would severely hurt their agenda.

[Anonymous No.18506194]

>>18506182
Okay, now the Iraq war, made because Saddam Husein wanted to sell his oil in gold instead of dollars, which would have weakened the dollar, was made by Marxists.
I'm tired of discussing with you.

[Anonymous No.18506197]

>>18506184
Yeah, a foreigner serving in a Marxist militia killing Spainards in their own country by cooperating in a foreign subversion force aimed at destroying Spanish society, you're really making a good case for yourself. Thanks to morons like him, Stalin nearly triumphed in Spain.

[Anonymous No.18506201]

>>18506192
neocons would sell their mothers for a shot at power turning on Trump is a no brainer

just look at Roger Stone

[Anonymous No.18506202]

>>18506194
>thinks the Iraq War was about oil
Not a single one of the Texas oil barons agreed with you, in fact most of them were largely opposed to the war. The major pushers for thewar in Iraq were the Trotskyite Neocons that took over the Bush administration.

[Anonymous No.18506208]

>>18506197
It was that or being part of a third reich who consider them all gyppos

[Anonymous No.18506217]

>>18506201
No surprise because at the end of the day what really is Trumpism? It's white middle class America looking for some accountability in politics tha thas been largely overrun by either neocons or those insane marxists footsoldiers who serve the neoliberal apparatchiks in the Democratic Party.

[Anonymous No.18506219]

>>18506197
In the end Franco won, "tradition" won. Except as expected, it didn't go anywhere, and by the 1960s, everybody was tired of Franco. He even collaborated with america in the 1950s (Eisenhower in Madrid in 1959).

[Anonymous No.18506223]

>>18506202
>The major pushers for thewar in Iraq were the Trotskyite Neocons that took over the Bush administration.
Just curious, for what reason?

[Anonymous No.18506233]

>>18506219
Franco wasn't a traditionalist, the traditionalists in the Spanish sense were closely aligned with the Carlist movement that Franco didn't tolerate. Franco was a military officer who seized power in a coup that was supported by Spanish people because of the amount of foreign interference brought in by the weak and incompetent Republican govt that was being wrecked from the inside by Marxist subversion forces. In the end, Franco proved to have kept Spain out of the disaster of WW2 and probably saved the country from ruin. It's only recently that Spain has drifted more into neoliberalism that isn't starting to slide back into chaos.

[Anonymous No.18506238]

>>18506233
>It's only recently that Spain has drifted more into neoliberalism
I wonder why. Could it be that Capitalism forces are unstoppable?

[Anonymous No.18506248]

>>18505463
Not since 1964

[Anonymous No.18506253]

>>18506223
There's two major avenues of thought here:
1. Many of the Neocons are Jewish Zionists like Leo Strauss as mentioned earlier or Bill Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, etc etc and they formed the intellectual nucleus of Neoconservative mostly in Chicago when they were forming as an intellectual movement. Saddam was a classic enemy of Israel and you have to remember that the 90s for Israel were absolutely devastating .You had the Palestinian intifada and growing Arab discontent with Israeli policy especially its expanionism, etc. Saddam was making noise (don't pretend that I support Saddam I am trying to explain my understanding of the event).

The SAudis and Israel didn't like this idea, so the best course of action is to bring America into Iraq to wipe out the Saddam regime and turn the whole country into chaos to completely make it powerless. The after-effects of Neocon policy ppost-9/11 speaks for itself: American forces destabilized most middle eastern countries where they could not longer offer threats to Israel. Bear in mind that, for example in the Syrian War, Israel has been making routine bombings on Syrian military and civilian targets (e.g. the Israeli bombing campaigns against the Damascus International Airport).

2. The other avenue that comes to mind is the fact that most of these guys are Trotskyites. You have to bear in mind that neocons sprung out of the anti-Stalinist left, mostly because Stalin pushed them out of power when he took the Marxist Throne. They fled to America to avoid the Great Purge and then got into working to infilitrate American politics. Some went down the more "traditional left" and remained communists and sponsored later Marxist terrorist organizations like the Weather Underground which had objectives to exterminate the white middle class, etc. The Neocons went a different route and worked to subvert American "conservatism" and make it powerless for a complete seizure of power. Neocons too target the white American middle class, etc. they're some of the loudest voices in denouncing Trumpism etc.

[Anonymous No.18506267]

>>18506238
I don't know, I don't really think capitalism even exists anymore. Most neoliberal countries dont' operate on capitalist principles. How can you tell me that America, for example, is a capitalist country when after 2008 Obama (the mulatto apparatchik with serious connections to Marxist organizations) used State sponsorship of select corporations to prevent them from failing? I think of the banks for example, Bank of America ... scamming people etc but then you have some "based" banks like I don't know, SAntander... I mean they are still wealthy elites sure but just because someone is a wealthy elite doesn't make them evil in my eye, that is a Marxist trope used to exterminate the middle class and seize ideological power. Anyway, to return to the point, Santander bank could have easily taken over where some of the others would have failed... that is capitalism, free flow of labor, value, commodities, etc... what we have now is far more akin to a socialism. The real marxists and trotskyites and neoliberals are quite content with this, but the average college age dupe moron who calls himself a "marxist" is just used as a battering ram against white middle class resistance which is why they framed Trump as a Hitler figure, etc.

[Anonymous No.18506272]

>>18506194
Trotskyites turned neocons are their own special breed

[Anonymous No.18506274]

>>18506272
They didn't really "turn" they are still Trotskyites... remember it was Trotsky who really pushed the Internationalism of Communism and was all about using subversion of foreign govts and societies to achieve his dream of a one world Party, etc.

[Anonymous No.18506287]

>>18506248
Absolutely based and true.

[Anonymous No.18506288]

>>18506192
I feel bad for Trump. I really think that he had no idea what he was getting into. He isn't the great subverter, just a well meaning but clueless guy who himself was subverted by forces he didn't recognize

Case in point https://www.newsmax.com/politics/trump-israel-jews-orthodox/2021/06/17/id/1025417/

[Anonymous No.18506293]

>>18506217
Here I thought it was a movement to make america great again by killing the occult societies.

Now who knows straussfags or troskist mormons are there?

Not many

[Anonymous No.18506298]

>>18506274
Dude you people rewrite history so much is not funny he got exiled and started thinking about muh international communism, the one pushing for that from the start was Lenin

[Anonymous No.18506304]

>>18506298
What were Lenin's and Trotskys main disagreements? I'm not familiar with the history

[Anonymous No.18506306]

>>18506197
>Marxist militia killing Spainards in their own country by cooperating in a foreign subversion force aimed at destroying Spanish society
This is your understanding of SCW? Jesùs, Josè y Maria...

[Anonymous No.18506308]

>>18502729
Interesting quote by Nietzche, he definitely did not like socialism.

"The over-all degeneration of man down to what today appears to the socialist dolts and flatheads as their "man of the future"-as their ideal-this degeneration and diminution of man into the perfect herd animal, this animalization of man into the dwarf animal of equal rights and claims, is possible, there is no doubt of it. Anyone who has once thought through this possibility to the end knows one kind of nausea that other men don't know-but perhaps also a new task!" (BGE, 203)

[Anonymous No.18506313]

>>18506288
Checked. Trump was the first conserv in modern history to stand in front of AIPAC and say, "...I don't want your money..." I mean that was huge. Trump isn't a neocon and he's not really apart of the Party apparatus program, I think we could do better but you know on the other hand the old saying "you get the type of government you deserve..." and frankly that's a fact. But in any case it doesn't really matter, what Trump was in the end and proven by voting stats (that Marxists loved to bring up to continue their crusade against white middle class USA...) is that Trumpism is baesd on white middle class desire (white middle class = largest holders of assets in all of America, which makes them a target by marxists and neoliberals for "re-distribution" similar to the kulak purges in someways... different of course in reality but to marxists its the same obejctive) to have some accountability back into American politics. You can't say that with trump that there was no accounability. Everytime the guy moved the media 24/7 circus act dragged it through the programs. Whether anyone wants to confess it or not, it was a positive step... but the REAL coup that happened in the last election was the neoliberals seizing power with the support of the DC National Guard who acted as a protective force in the capitol.. now that was some shit to see live.

[Anonymous No.18506320]

>>18506298
>rewrite history
Trotsky was a big advocate for international Communism, so was Lenin but we are talking about Trotskyites not Leninists.

>>18506306
That is the entire Republican side of the Spanish Civil War. They brought in loads of foreign mercenaries to serve in International Brigades and then later got psyopped by Marxist KGB agents and militias. If the "Republic" had won the Spanish Civil War, Spain would have fallen under the influence of the KGB and it would have led to an even worse situation. Of course, I think that this would have prompted a 2nd Spanish Civil War.

[Anonymous No.18506326]

>>18506304
Leon was all about the internal, he wanted to group what was already known as the USSR and tried doing several uprisings while being on charge of the military, as you may now lot of people died there and most blamed the guy leading them, but he was no trained general that's for sure.

Meanwhile Lenin was all about making the change on global mentality work and he created terms like third world and post colonialism.

He was all about making the class narrative while Trotsky was more of a modern like man of the world worried about being a good president on a democratic regime.

[Anonymous No.18506333]

>>18506313
>(white middle class = largest holders of assets in all of America
Lmao, you believe this?

[Anonymous No.18506340]

>>18506333
Don't ask if you know the answer, talk instead of how many pajeets and chinese own the actual money

[Anonymous No.18506351]

>>18506320
>That is the entire Republican side of the Spanish Civil War. They brought in loads of foreign mercenaries to serve in International Brigades and then later got psyopped by Marxist KGB agents and militias. If the "Republic" had won the Spanish Civil War, Spain would have fallen under the influence of the KGB and it would have led to an even worse situation. Of course, I think that this would have prompted a 2nd Spanish Civil War.
So many things are wrong here that it's just not interesting to even try.

[Anonymous No.18506353]

>>18506326
Trotsky was one of the biggest advocates for the invasion of Poland in 1919-1920 war...
‘Death to the Polish bourgeoisie! Over its corpse we will conclude a fraternal union with Worker-Peasant Poland.’ - Trotsky

The general orders of the invasion of Poland in 1919-1920 were:
“over the corpse of white Poland led the path toward world conflagration.”
They wanted to use the invasion of Poland to exterminate the Poles (like they did in Katyn Forest Massacre) and use their corpses as a springboard into Western Europe. Trotsky was a major advocate of this campaign, as of course was Lenin.... funny that this campaign is what led to Stalin's rise to power.

[Anonymous No.18506362]

>>18506253
>Many of the Neocons are Jewish Zionists
Is Israel a multimillenarian conspiracy, or is it a country were jews, which were the merchant class in germany, fled, when a goyim merchant class appeared, and made them redundant, thus disposable?
Is Israel a multimillenarian conspiracy, or is it a formidable front post for anglo-american imperialism in the middle east.
Did Rothshild promote israel because he was accomplishing the messianic eschatologic conspiracy, or because he wanted to get rid of the jews, sending them in the middle east, thus getting rid of the competition? Those are only simple questions.
>Bear in mind that, for example in the Syrian War, Israel has been making routine bombings on Syrian military and civilian targets
Syrian war was because of the pipeline. Not because of the great israel.
https://citizentruth.org/syria-oil-pipelines/
Sarkozy aksed Assad around 2008 about the pipeline. Assad refused, saying that Sarkozy is a son of a bitch. Assad had orders from Russia, and was already in Russia pocket. He was loyal to russia. Hence followed the 2010s Syrian war. It's not about israel, it's about Capital. A gaz pipeline. Profit.
>The Neocons went a different route and worked to subvert American "conservatism" and make it powerless for a complete seizure of power. Neocons too target the white American middle class,
According to you, the world is moved by a Neocon Marxist Cabal. Profit, Capital accumulation, which is the motor, the nuclear core of production, doesn't exist.
By the way, i thought exactly like you until around 2014, when i started, thanks to exceptional libertarian marxist, to understand what really is Captialism. Don't think for one second that you are some kind of vanguard in the evolution of thought. You have a major hole in your understanding of reality, it's that you have no clue how Captialism works. Profit, which is surplus value, primitive accumulation of Capital, tendency of the rate of profit to fall, average profit, imperialism wars (conquering new markets). Rate of exploitation, supply and demand of the labor market (mass immigration to lower wages). Alienation, species being, commodity fetischism. Those things don't exist for you. All that exist is a multimillenarian, talmudo sionist jewish conspiracy, which aim to destroy the white traditional world.
It's like commodity doesn't have it's own life. Capital accumulation: a jewish plot. It's like people don't have chosen commodity, on a subconscious level, before reversing it.

[Anonymous No.18506363]

>>18506333
Of course, do you know what assets are? I'm not talking about currency, I'm talking about land assets, etc. White middle class America owns the greatest share of it which is precisely why its being targeted by neoliberals and Marxist goons. Go to any neoliberal media outlet and they'll be raving about "white nationalist domestic terrorism", which is just complete and total nonsense aimed at soking the "revolution class" in america which is duped BLACKS into jump starting a vanguard movement to wage war against white middle class america.

[Anonymous No.18506367]

>>18506351
OK but history doesn't care, the fact remains that the mercenaries of the International Brigades were defeated along with their allies in the KGB who propped up the entire Republican war effort. At the end of the day, it was Franco's coalition that defeated the Marxists.

[Anonymous No.18506369]

>>18506353
Yeah cause he is a reich raised jew, of course he wanted to liberate germany austria and the birthplace of Marx, those were their goals but Trotsky wasn't talking about Mexico before he ended up there running from everyone with a pulse.

[Anonymous No.18506372]

>>18506313
Trump doesn't exist. Nor does your neocon marxist conspiracy.
All that exist is Capital accumulation, tendency of the rate of profit to fall, and the way to counter it, profit, rate of exploitation. Get real. Stop thinking like i thought in 2012.

[Anonymous No.18506379]

>>18506362
>using the term conspiracy
American CIA terminology, very nice!

[Anonymous No.18506386]

>>18506367
Literally nothing of what you say actually happened.
>At the end of the day, it was Franco's coalition that defeated the Marxists.
>coalition
>defeated the Marxists
Have you read at least one (1) book on the SCW?

[Anonymous No.18506388]

>>18506362
>thinks that the war in Syria is about private accumulation of capital
This is not even a stretch, and the fact you're falling into some bizarre ravings about conspiracies proves it. You try so hard to fit a materialist puzzle piece into an obvious fact to deny the active involvement of Marxist collusion with neoliberalism probably because your university professor made yo uwatch some movies like "Walker" so you got it all figured out... its the WASPS man... the WASP colonialists with the capitalism... the Profit Margins.. lmfao. The WASPs haven't gained anything since the end of WW1.

[Anonymous No.18506392]

>>18506379
Conspiracies exist, but they are not autonomous. Evolution of productive forces, necessities of Capital accumulation, creates conspiracies. Not. The. Other. Way. Round.

[Anonymous No.18506395]

>>18506164
based

[Anonymous No.18506397]

>>18506372
>neocon marxist conspiracy
Actively denying truth doesn't make it right. Marxist sycophantic liar! Your only use for the neoliberals is the extermination of white middle class America and make NO mistake about it... same as you've been extorted in other countries, a useful moronic class of lumpenproles to subvert your own countrymen to extermination at the hands of ideological foreigners.

[Anonymous No.18506400]

>>18506388
Nobody gives a shit about a jewish conspiracy, even jews.
It's all about Capital accumulation.

[Anonymous No.18506408]

>>18506392
>NO NO NO IT HAS TO BE THE WAY MARX DESCRIBED IT!!!
You people are so helpless. The neocons that subverted the Bush administration weren't apart of any oil orgs... and big oil barons were not even pro-war in Iraq. You're talking out of your ass to force a puzzle piece that belongs in another set.

>>18506400
>i-its about capital accumulation!!! its the WASPs!!!
Not going to work.

[Anonymous No.18506412]

>>18506397
I repeat, i thought EXACTLY like you, in around 2012. I swear to God.
How does that feel to be 10 years late?

[Anonymous No.18506418]

>>18506412
>then I converted to the one true path
Give it a rest, the only people buying into Marxism are lumpenprole morons who have achieved absolutely nothing over the last decade except aligning with neoliberalism to wipe out the white American middle class. That's it.

[Anonymous No.18506422]

>>18506408
>i-its about capital accumulation!!! its the WASPs!!!
Capital accumulation doesn't have any race. Nor does it have a religion. Just look at China for Christ sake.

[Anonymous No.18506432]

>>18506418
>neoliberalism to wipe out the white American middle class. That's it.
Sure i want to wipe out the white american middle class. :s
I don't give a shit about this man. I want for them to be classless, commodity less society. Decentralized, without hierarchy. Without money. Without wage labor.

[Anonymous No.18506435]

>>18506267
Capital has used the state for it's own purposes since the very beginning. The state was literally created to uphold property rights, to maintain some form of class system.

This american-reaganite idea of "capitalism is when no government" is dumb as shit. Go read Adam Smith's theory of history.

[Anonymous No.18506440]

>>18506422
>everything has to work exactly in one direction as Father Marx said
It's pathetic really. The neocon subversion of the American conservative moment as it originated as a band of Trostkyists is not only well documented but generally accepted. Furthermore, the complete subversion of the bush administraiton into fueling war in Iraq was composed almost entirely of Jewish NeoCons... even Israeli newspapers were writing about this: https://www.haaretz.com/1.4764706

[Anonymous No.18506447]

>>18506432
>I want them to be classless
You want them to possess nothing, to have nothing, to be subservient to your Central Committee. The truth is you won't be in this position, like the others once you exterminate and dispossess the white middle class and give all the wealth into the hands of your Party apparatchiks leadership, you will most likely have the guns turned on you.

[Anonymous No.18506451]

I out i'm tired discussing with him. Someday he'll understand.

[Anonymous No.18506454]

>>18506435
>Capital has used the state for it's own purposes since the very beginning
>gets completely deBONKED with the war in Iraq.
You're a fraud and a sycophant.
>>18506451
>UNTIL HE ACCEPTS THE WORD OF MARX... THERE'S NO DEBATE!
We know already, get lost.

[Anonymous No.18506458]

>>18506440
Just a last post: it's money and commodity, it's evolution throught history, it's development, which created the jewish people.
Read "on the jewish question". It's a short read.

[Anonymous No.18506465]

>>18506458
>money and commodity created the jewish people
You lunatics will actually try to force Marxist theories into all developments of human life. It's no surprise that you always turn so insanely violent the moment you get a little real power. Neoliberal slave

[Anonymous No.18506497]

>>18506363
>do you know what assets are? I'm not talking about currency, I'm talking about land assets

>In 2007, according to the Land Report, the nation's 100 largest private landowners owned a combined 27 million acres of land — equivalent to the area of Maine and New Hampshire combined.
>A decade later, the 100 largest landowners have holdings of 40.2 million acres, an increase of nearly 50 percent.

>According to a recent working paper by New York University economist Edward Wolff, in 2016 the wealthiest 1 percent of households owned 40 percent of the nation's non-home real estate, while the next 9 percent of households owned another 42 percent.
>That left the remaining 90 percent of households owning just 18 percent of the country's non-home real estate.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/21/american-land-barons-100-wealthy-families-now-own-nearly-as-much-land-as-that-of-new-england/


>America’s Biggest Owner Of Farmland Is Now Bill Gates
https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielshapiro/2021/01/14/americas-biggest-owner-of-farmland-is-now-bill-gates-bezos-turner/

Damn, who could've imagined...

[Anonymous No.18506510]

>>18506497
And what a surprise that Bill Gates and Bezos are some of the biggest pushers of neoliberalism ideology that directly transplants into marxist street activism targeting white middle class america. O fcourse they want to seize our assets, they will re-distritubte to their revolutionary class like that moron black woman who worked with BLM to destroy small businesses.

[Anonymous No.18506539]

>>18506510
American conservatives live in this crazy world where capitalists and anti-capitalists conspire against them.

I'm nearly convinced the dumbest right-wing intelligentsia in the world lies in America thanks to their wacky media ecosystem.

[Anonymous No.18506567]

>>18506510
Ah, yes, that good ol' marxist quote "We will give the means of productions to billionaires".
*sigh*
So you effortlessly discarded your previous statement ("white middle class = largest holders of assets in all of America") when presented with new facts, and instead tried to fit them into your unchanged political stance? Fantastic.

[Anonymous No.18506576]

>>18506539
>American conservatives live in this crazy world where capitalists and anti-capitalists conspire against them.
It's even better than that, according to them the capitalists are marxists. It's just another level

[Anonymous No.18506578]

>>18506267
Don't pretend bailouts are a partisan issue when Bush pushed for TARP.
Democrat neolibs are always signing trade deals and pushing policies that 'promote the free flow of labour, value, commodities'.
Repub neolibs are barely different besides Trump's protectionism which was rejected by his own party.
> marxists and trotskyites and neoliberals
The latter is categorically opposed to the two former. Talk to anyone who calls themselves a neolib.

[Anonymous No.18506629]

>>18506510
>Bill Gates and Bezos are marxist dood!!!

You are retarded.

[Anonymous No.18506813]

>>18506539
>conspire against them
>everything has to be a TEAM A vs TEAM B polemic
Both neoliberals and Marxists have similar objectives, the difference is neoliberalism is more powerful than Marxism and thus Marxists serve at the leisure of the neoliberal apparatus. This is why you will never see Marxists openly attacking neoliberals but ALWAYS attack white middle class first and foremost. Not a SINGLE Marxist movement alive today in America has targeted a SINGLE neoliberal institution or entity, but they are often attacking white america and promoting black Marxism to use as a revolutionary class.

>>18506567
>We will give the means of productions to billionaires
No the Marxist quote is "We will give the means of productions to sycophants and apparatchiks."

>>18506578
>Democrats talk about "free flow of labor"
They do not support the free flow of labor. 2008 conclusively proved this, it also proved there is no capitalist market in America. This is why you are weaponized against white middle class America like last summer when BLM and Marxists under Federal guidance went on rampages for 6 months burning down businesses for example. That was just the Neoliberal Order responding to the power they hold.

>>18506629
>blatant call them neoliberals
>braindead marxist pawn unable to see that
*kneels for george floyd*
bash the bash eh comrade!!!

[Anonymous No.18506839]

>>18506576
>conclusively show to you Neocons subverted "conservatism" in America
There is no "conservative" base in America. All of them are rainbow flag waving Zionists.

[Anonymous No.18506858]

>>18506578
>The latter is categorically opposed to the two former. Talk to anyone who calls themselves a neolib.
God damn don't you even read the intelligence records of your own Marxist KGB? These people learned how to manipulate from them which is why every single movement involved with Marxists is backed by neoliberal finances and media support.

[Anonymous No.18506862]

As an american I am frustrated that so many people here regard him as biological determinist, social darwinist, or radical individualist. These are all things he attacks at length. His philosophy emphasizes that much of what we regard as "human nature" is highly historically contingent. "Man is an animal whose type is not yet set".
Following from that, the superiority of one nation or human being over another is strictly contingent.
He attacks individualism because its title is a misnomer, the worship of the individual does not produce strong individuals, but weak ones. He is critical of socialism, not because it negates individualism, but because it is a form of individualism.

[Anonymous No.18506887]

Would Marx have kneeled for George Floyd...? Or was he literally Hitler...??