Do you think there will be any more mediums of art?

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Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:14:40 2021 No.18498663 [DELETED]

Do you think there will be any more mediums of art?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:15:46 2021 No.18498669 https://voca.ro/19y0V2DD1eYu

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:17:13 2021 No.18498677 >>18498663 VR Hologram shows Altho those already exist they will just get more advanced and shilled by Big Tech

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:18:09 2021 No.18498682 >>18498677 How are they gonna be any different than watching theatre?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:18:22 2021 No.18498685 >>18498663 honestly, video games yeah yeah i know i'm a faggot but it's a relatively new and interesting medium where it allows the viewer to become the participant rather than a spectator or observer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:19:03 2021 No.18498687 No

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:19:09 2021 No.18498688 >>18498682 You could say that about films too, but they're still considered different media.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:20:12 2021 No.18498697 >>18498677 >>18498685 Audience participation disqualifies it from being art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:20:54 2021 No.18498703 >>18498697 Why ?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:21:00 2021 No.18498704 >>18498697 Present your reasoning.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:21:06 2021 No.18498705 >>18498677 Disgusting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:21:17 2021 No.18498706 File: 249 KB, 600x875, Bertolt-Brecht.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18498697 blocks your path

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:32:04 2021 No.18498733 >>18498663 Maybe VR yeah, in how you can do things with that that a real life art installation couldn't

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:33:47 2021 No.18498738 >>18498663 As long as there are new mediums to be discovered new mediums of art will be discovered.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:38:09 2021 No.18498754 >>18498663 dna splicing

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 09:58:50 2021 No.18498883

>>18498703
>>18498704
Imagine displaying a painting along with brush and paint, so patrons can finish it. Or the director coming out on stage after each act of a play to ask the audience what they want to happen next. It's ridiculous.

I agree with Aristotle, and I think it applies to all art: the work has to be a complete and self-contained whole. And the essence of the creative part is selectivity wrt what goes into that whole, what the work is and what it conveys. A bad artist allows accidents in that conflict with the rest, or fails to convey what he intended. But to leave the thing incomplete by design is to make it something to interact with rather than contemplate. It's to cease to be an artist and become a designer. Car and fashion designers can also create highly aestheticized objects, but they aren't artists.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:00:06 2021 No.18498888 >>18498754 Based

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:06:42 2021 No.18498927

>>18498883
How is interaction contradictory to contemplation ? By your standards, no one can contemplate life because you participate in it.
>But to leave the thing incomplete by design
Video games aren't incomplete. You just witness how the story goes while doing something productive with your brain. Also multiple endings are neat.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:06:44 2021 No.18498928

>>18498883
while i get what you are saying, it's not exactly equal
A video game doesn't really 'let you" create it. everything is pre-programed into the game. however, it allows you to be the one who directly experiences the events of a game or VR thing

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:23:05 2021 No.18499036

>>18498883
>Or the director coming out on stage after each act of a play to ask the audience what they want to happen next.
They did that with some movie, the audience could vote and choose the ending.
I've also read about plays that take place simultaneously in different places, with separate narratives, so the audience has to choose which part to watch.
Abramović's Rhythm O is also an example to consider, performance art and theater in general is physically completely open to this sort of interaction. I'm sure that no actor would say that acting with or without an audience is the same - the play is fundamentally not complete nor self-contained without a living present audience. Aristotle was talking about ancient drama and theater, where the relationship was strongly in favour of the fixed dramatic text, rather than the far more open and unpredictable theatrical situation. Besides, I don't remember even him talking about self-containment; the idea of catharsis already could be understood as being in part outside of the domain of the body of the artwork, if we assume that it relates to the cleansing of the audience's emotions (rather than the emotions of characters). Perhaps that isn't so relevant, but the border between art and a game is either way surely porous and difficult to define.
Some games are very fixed. You go down a linear path, failing until you succeed. Those offer a lot of control to the designer as to how the audience will experience the work, allowing for more art-like creation. Some are much more open, such as chess, which in a way nearly erases its own body (it is completely irrelevant how the game looks and feels, but how it functions) to allow pure "dialogue" between the two players. These are quite far from art.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:24:14 2021 No.18499043

>>18498927
Sure, a car's engine can be an object of contemplation for an engineer or mechanic, but that is not its function. It's function is to move the car. An artwork is something whose function is to be contemplated.
>>18498928
This is an issue of degree, but I think it's the same kind as I was talking about. The game cannot be completed without input from the gamer, therefore it is not self-contained or whole. Maybe you could argue that a gamer is like a performer? I don't think I'd buy that, but I can't think of why not.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:24:55 2021 No.18499047

>>18498883
that doesn't make any sense, movies and books must be interacted with, but they are complete.

Games offer a journey, where you are allowed the facsimile of participating, but it's weird to call the thing unfinished. it's no more unfinished of an art form than being in the middle of a movie or a book. It's a narrative. unless you don't consider books art there's no reason for you to hold this opinion but normative values you were taught.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:26:18 2021 No.18499056 >>18498883 >Imagine displaying a painting along with brush and paint, so patrons can finish it. Or the director coming out on stage after each act of a play to ask the audience what they want to happen next Cool ideas

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:40:31 2021 No.18499134 >>18499043 >An artwork is something whose function is to be contemplated. Being contemplated is clearly a part of the functions of certain video games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:58:42 2021 No.18499247 >>18498688 not justifiably imo

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 10:59:44 2021 No.18499253 >>18498697 go back ebert

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:00:02 2021 No.18499255 >>18498663 The last one was cinema, and nothing else has appeared since.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:01:05 2021 No.18499260 >>18498883 >>18498697 Giga based

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:02:41 2021 No.18499268 File: 171 KB, 712x423, roger.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:04:36 2021 No.18499275 >>18499047 > movies and books must be interacted with No, they are contemplated. >Games offer a journey, where you are allowed the facsimile of participating Games need audience input and are therefore not art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:06:27 2021 No.18499279 >>18498883 cars and fashion items don't have narratives or themes, get real anon

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:07:52 2021 No.18499289 >>18499275 What's the fundamental divide between contemplation and interaction? Feedback?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:08:06 2021 No.18499292 >>18499275 >Games need audience input Not if you watch someone else play.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:09:12 2021 No.18499298

>>18499047
I was unclear there. When I said 'interaction', I meant 'requires input to finish'. A book isn't like that, no part of the content changes with your reading. If you had something that was completely on rails, like a theme park dark ride, then yeah, I could see that. But then it wouldn't be a game.
>>18499036
I'm inclined to say that those people are hacks, and those plays and movies are art in the same sense as an invisible sculpture, or a banana taped to a museum wall. Which is to say, not at all.
>the idea of catharsis already could be understood as being in part outside of the domain of the body of the artwork, if we assume that it relates to the cleansing of the audience's emotions
When I said 'self-contained', I meant whole and requiring nothing additional for its completion, not a black box that has no effect on anything outside itself. Obviously the point of a play is to get a reaction, but there's is a clear distinction between that reaction and the art object (spatial, temporal, or both) itself.

Three people read a book: one loves it, one hates it, and the other is barely literate. And yet the book remains the same throughout.

Performance is an interesting question. I think that each performance is creating the work anew as a distinct entity existing across time. The audience may be a material condition that affects the performance, as with a sculptor creating copies of an original work out of blocks of marble (or whatever) of varying quality. Doesn't change the basic principle, that the performance is a unified whole created by the performers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:09:24 2021 No.18499301 >>18499292 A picture made in MS Paint can be art. This does not make MS Paint art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:11:53 2021 No.18499316 >>18499275 What is the distinction that you make between interaction and contemplation? You still haven't shown why they contradict each other.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:16:40 2021 No.18499360 File: 120 KB, 666x1060, Rayuela_JC.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18499275 blocks your path

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:19:50 2021 No.18499386

>>18499298
You still have to turn the pages and make an effort to comprehend it. If you can't comprehend it the book still exists, but you haven't read all of it. If you can't finish a game the game still exists, but you haven't played all of it.
Take a puzzle game. A close-ended one, where each puzzle has just the one solution. How different is it from a book? The puzzles and the solutions are always the same. If you can't solve them you can't see the end, but if you don't understand what's going on in a book you can't meaningfully see the end either.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:29:13 2021 No.18499451

>>18499386
The content of a novel doesn't change because of how you read it. The content of a video game, what's happening on the screen, does change as a result of how you play it. If it were so on rails that that ceased to be the case, it might become art, but it would at that same instant cease to be a game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:32:54 2021 No.18499472 >>18499451 It can change, have you read Hopscotch by Cortazar?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:34:15 2021 No.18499481 >>18498677 Jewish technotrickery is not art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:36:18 2021 No.18499495 >>18498663 Isn't everything "art" after word games?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:37:53 2021 No.18499500 >>18499472 >The content of a novel doesn't change because of how you read it.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:38:33 2021 No.18499503

>>18499451
Why define the content of a video game as what's happening on the screen? That's just what's visible. The contents of a book remain when it's opened at a different page.
The Witness is a puzzle game where you wander through a mostly-static world. Doors and such open as you solve puzzles, but change is limited to that. You could view the world, including its puzzles, as equivalent to the contents of a book. (The Witness also happens to be superficially artsy but I'm less interested in that.)
It requires effort, but so does comprehension. It requires input, but not that much more than leafing back and forth through a book.
You can perversely wring unintended behavior from the game, but you can do something similar to books by looking for numerological patterns.
It's a game all the same.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:39:50 2021 No.18499510 >>18499500 Yes, the way you read it changes the plot, even if the content itself is the same. Same thing applies for vidya.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:43:42 2021 No.18499530 >>18499360 Its content never changes. >>18499510 Plot is content.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:44:56 2021 No.18499535

>>18499472
I haven't, but I have read RL Stein. I assume it's a fancy choose your own adventure book? I would just say that if you're having your readers edit your book for you, you might be doing something very fun or interesting, but you're not making art.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:48:02 2021 No.18499545
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>>18499530
You are contradicting yourself.
It is undeniable that the plot of Hopscotch changes depending on the order you read it, Cortazar himself admitted that that was his idea when he wrote the novel. If the plot is content, and it changes in this novel, then the contents changes too.
>>18499535
It is an experimental novel, and classic of Hispanic literature, not even close to a choose your adventure book.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:50:08 2021 No.18499558 Anyone who believes contemplation and interaction are incompatible clearly has never played Shadow of the Colossus.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:55:21 2021 No.18499582

>>18499535
>I would just say that if you're having your readers edit your book for you, you might be doing something very fun or interesting, but you're not making art.
You are presupposing the definition of art is more settled than it is. Like, someone could plausibly define art as "intentional creations that are interesting and fun".
Players don't "create" games, they play them. The game is in the same starting point for everyone, and variation in experience is emergent from pre-defined parameters the creator established. Hence many discussions about how game rules enhanced a high point in
a story and such, much in the same way prose might.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 11:57:09 2021 No.18499590

>>18499530
>Its content never changes.
You have to grant the same to video games. The reader doesn't write his own parts and a gamer doesn't develop the game. It either is or is not participation in any case. I would still disagree with your point, but you have to have a coherent definition of participation and apply it consistently.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:00:21 2021 No.18499610 >>18499590 Though there is some insight in your line of thinking: multiplayer games not being art because of participation in some way is something I can get behind. But the problem is too much participation the way I see it, not it's mere presence.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:04:59 2021 No.18499634 >>18499545 The content never changes. What changes is the order. >>18499590 The content of a video game changes all the time. It's not even close to being the same.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:11:11 2021 No.18499662 >>18499634 >The content of a video game changes all the time. It's not even close to being the same. Meh, I think you overestimate how much influence the gamer has on the game.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:14:13 2021 No.18499672

>>18499634
>The content of a video game changes all the time. It's not even close to being the same.
Depends on the game
>The content never changes. What changes is the order.
If the plot changes depending on which order you read it, and the plot is content, then the content changes.
Plus, this is not that different from how videogames work. You have limited amount of things you can do, the content is always there, but you can experience it in different ways, which can "alter the content" so to speak.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:16:38 2021 No.18499687 >>18499634 >>18499672 What this anon said, you cannot co-create the game by playing it, you only experience it within limits imposed by the game's designer.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:18:30 2021 No.18499696

>>18498663
>Do you think there will be any more mediums of art?

this not even the beginning,

>plays made in real-time
>plays or series made by your preferences,
>direct input dream
>memory simulation of another person
>hyper porn

the good shit is still coming

>>18498883
who cares, anon?

you could argue the opposite, just write an automatic play which develops your character by a maximum degree.
Dont you think it sucks your society only gives you marvel movies, and some B-movies?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:23:57 2021 No.18499716 >>18499696 none of that is art, just tech gimmicks

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:27:38 2021 No.18499728 >>18499716 They aren't art, but they are a medium through which art can develop, just as writing isn't art itself, but literature uses it as its medium.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:31:18 2021 No.18499739 >>18499672 You mistake input with interaction. Video games are just digital toys, not art. A reader choosing one out of two ways to read an experimental novel is not the same as a video game. A video game requires user input.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:32:20 2021 No.18499741 >>18499728 what art can come from "hyper porn"?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:35:48 2021 No.18499753 >>18498697 Literally this So many triggered by this truth

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:36:43 2021 No.18499755 >>18499741 Lynch could probably do something with it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:37:54 2021 No.18499764 >>18498697 The interactive aspect requires an artist's creativity all the same, so no, it doesn't.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:38:28 2021 No.18499766 >>18499739 What would the difference be? What does "input" mean in this context?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:39:16 2021 No.18499770 >>18499753 No one's triggered, we're simply calling out your lack of argumentation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:39:45 2021 No.18499774 >>18499755 like what? thats a big if and not really an answer

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:41:38 2021 No.18499779

>>18498883
>Imagine displaying a painting along with brush and paint, so patrons can finish it. Or the director coming out on stage after each act of a play to ask the audience what they want to happen next. It's ridiculous.
>>18499739
>You mistake input with interaction. Video games are just digital toys, not art. A reader choosing one out of two ways to read an experimental novel is not the same as a video game. A video game requires user input.
Are you getting two (You)'s here? If yes, do you realize how confused your output is?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:43:09 2021 No.18499784 File: 37 KB, 695x286, 786795897.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18499779 >Are you getting two (You)'s here? No.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 12:44:12 2021 No.18499789 >>18499774 I can't imagine how it could be turned into art, because I'm not an artist. A right artist could. That's all I'm saying.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:06:43 2021 No.18499910

>>18499503
>Why define the content of a video game as what's happening on the screen? That's just what's visible. The contents of a book remain when it's opened at a different page.
Why define the content of a song as being a sound? The score remains the same whether you're hearing it or not. Because that's just what a song is, as a video game is that thing on the screen that you're using your controller to interact with.

That game does make an interesting example, though. Cut out all choice and varying responses, and leave only the bare fact of the player interacting with the game.
I think I still have to say not. Imagine a sculpture being mailed to somebody in pieces that have to be assembled, and it's fairly complex, so they assembly is a puzzle in it's own right. Is the disassembled statue art? What about the experience of putting it together? I say not, it doesn't become art until completed. I think that's analogous to any such artful puzzle game.
>>18499582
>You are presupposing the definition of art is more settled than it is.
No, I'm presupposing that words exist to allow us to identify things in the world, and art and games are in fact two separate kinds of things, differentiated by function.
>>18499590
If you had two directors direct the same scene in a movie, same actors, same script, same sets, everything, but they're shooting different shots from different angles, would they produce the same scene, same movie? No, of course not. But that's the effect of different playthroughs of a videogame.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:08:18 2021 No.18499920 >>18498663 Yes, soon technology will allow us to bypass traditional sensory media to the brain, enabling new kinds of experience

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:14:00 2021 No.18499940 >>18499739 Videogames allow you to experience traditional stories in new ways when crafted well. I don't see how that isn't art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:15:12 2021 No.18499948 >>18498663 Still eagerly awaiting symphonies of smell

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:17:42 2021 No.18499963 >>18499948 just have synesthesia, bro.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:19:19 2021 No.18499969

>>18499910
>If you had two directors direct the same scene in a movie, same actors, same script, same sets, everything, but they're shooting different shots from different angles, would they produce the same scene, same movie? No, of course not. But that's the effect of different playthroughs of a videogame.
Setting a precise sequence of camera angles isn't what you do when you create of a game, so yes, different players are playing the same game. Just like you're watching the same play from different seats.

If you want to get technical, there are tricks of level design and perspective to make the player see what matters in the way that the designer wants. You don't control player's POV exactly, but you set other boundaries and work with them: forced entrances, geometry etc. Point is, the game designer presents visual content in a different way then a film director does. Different constraints on presenting content, different artforms.

Your argument does noting to convince me that the gamer takes part in creating the game to some meaningful degree. The game is a creation in itself that's experienced within boundaries that its creator understands and controls.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:26:41 2021 No.18500013

>>18498663
Vidya isn't art, retards. Here's a game designer's words:

MGS creator Hideo Kojima has joined in with the "But are games art?" debate, arguing that, well, no they're not.

In an interview with OPSM2 US, Kojima said: "Art is the stuff you find in the museum, whether it be a painting or a statue. What I'm doing, what videogame creators are doing, is running the museum - how do we light up things, where do we place things, how do we sell tickets?

"For better or worse, what I do, Hideo Kojima, myself, is run the museum and also create the art that's displayed in the museum."

Kojima was responding to a question about recent comments made by US film critic Roger Ebert, who said: "To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers."

Perhaps surprisingly, Kojima said he agreed with Ebert, stating: "I don't think they're art either, videogames."

Kojima went on to say that "Art is something that radiates the artist," arguing that "If 100 people walk by and a single person is captivated by whatever that piece radiates, it's art.

"But videogames aren't trying to capture one person. A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play that game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame. It's something of a service. It's not art. But I guess the way of providing service with that videogame is an artistic style, a form of art."

Kojima went on to discuss the nature of interactivity, using the example of concept cars. "You don't have to be able to drive a car, but if it's called a car and it has artistic elements in the visuals, then it's art.

"But an actual car, like a videogame, is interactive, so it's something used by people, so it's like a car where you have to drive it. There are 100 people driving a car; they have 100 ways of driving it and using it. It could be families driving the car. It could be a couple driving a car. The owner of the car could be driving along the coastline or they could go up into the mountains, so this car has to be able to be driven by all 100 of these people, so in that sense, it's totally not art."

So there you have it: games aren't art, and neither are cars. Cheers for clearing that up.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:30:47 2021 No.18500033 >>18500013 This only proves that Kojima doesn't understand art

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:54:50 2021 No.18500136 >>18500013 >video games contain art, but they are not art thanks for bringing this this interesting take to out attention and quoting it entirely, even if you failed at reading it properly

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:58:23 2021 No.18500149 >>18500136 Just like you can save art into your operating system, so you can save art into a video game, both are software and none are art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:58:40 2021 No.18500151 >>18500013 Now ask someone who makes good games, like Shinji Mikami.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 13:59:31 2021 No.18500156 >>18500033 This only proves that you don't understand art

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:02:06 2021 No.18500170 >>18500013 >film critic Why do such people exist ? Why are they needed ? What do they know that is required to appreciate art that we don't know ?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:03:11 2021 No.18500175 >>18500149 yeah it's not quite what it says, it's a different kind of containment, keep trying champ

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:04:45 2021 No.18500185 >>18500170 The critic is the real artist

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:07:55 2021 No.18500204 >>18500185 If you're going to pay attention to critics then why not pay attention to an actual videogame critic like icycalm and not a film critic like Ebert?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:08:17 2021 No.18500207 >>18500185 This. Goodreads will be archived, studied, and enjoyed by future LitHERature professorx.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:10:05 2021 No.18500215 >>18500175 it is what it says. He means that games include stuff like music. And he doubles down on games. not being art later in the article. You're just salty that your hobby is not art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:11:35 2021 No.18500224 File: 54 KB, 320x378, 24242422426454554.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>18500185 Refuted by Maestro.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:11:46 2021 No.18500226 >>18498663 It’s media, not mediums, you mongoloid.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:12:55 2021 No.18500235

>>18500215
>You're just salty that your hobby is not art.
I'm actually not sure about the issue, still thinking about it. But keep >implying whatever you like and reading in whatever you feel champ. Again, thanks for the sauce, it's more interesting than you know.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:13:36 2021 No.18500240 >>18499036 >They did that with some movie, the audience could vote and choose the ending. What movie? Did the audience in the theatre vote?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:22:43 2021 No.18500285 >>18500235 Nice impotent seething without any argument. It struck a nerve, didn't it? Kojima is clear: games are not art and games are digital museums of entertainment made to sell a service at best. Cope, seethe, dilate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:22:43 2021 No.18500286 >>18499275 Well you do gotta turn the pages in a book, so you're interacting with it. Checkmate

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:24:40 2021 No.18500294 >>18500286i That's not input like in vidya, so no.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:25:35 2021 No.18500302 >>18500285 >Kojima is clear Who cares ? Kojima produced the abortion known as Death Stranding.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:26:10 2021 No.18500304 >>18500302 Filtered

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:27:57 2021 No.18500314 >>18500294 You're using your brain to interpret words and imagine scenes while reading. That's a form of input.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:28:47 2021 No.18500320 >>18500285 you sound like the one who's angry here champ

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:32:32 2021 No.18500330

>>18500314
Then I guess by that logic everything written is art. Your post must be art because I imagined a faggot writing it. But that's not how it works, is it? There is a passive and an active interaction, and input belongs to the latter category. Interpreting and imagining are part of passive.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:33:02 2021 No.18500334
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>>18498677
>and shilled by Big Tech
this is one of the problems.
if the medium is accessible, without influence or barrier, to an artist, then true art can be produced.
if corporations or governments or activists have any influence, true art is unlikely to be produced.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:34:23 2021 No.18500342 >>18500330 >Then I guess by that logic everything written is art. If it is written for the purpose of an artist's expression and/or a reader's pleasure, then yes. Whether it is "low" or "high," "bad" or "good" art depends on other factors.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 14:42:27 2021 No.18500387 >>18499739 >You mistake input with interaction. >>18500330 >There is a passive and an active interaction, and input belongs to the latter category. define your terms faggot(s) or we'll be at it all day

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 15:14:51 2021 No.18500545

100 posts in and no one has dared point out the emperor has no clothes. It's time to slaughter the sacred cow. Art is a worthless descriptor because it has no agreed upon meaning. The last thing you want as someone who is creative is your creation labeled art. I cannot think of a worse insult.

Psueds are in here seething at chad videogames because the writing is on the wall. There is one medium to rule them all and it has materialized. Simulation is the end product where all mediums converge. Film? Film showing in a VR setting with AI and human controlled characters (just ai if you want to be autistic). Gameplay of exploring a fully fledged VR environment such as a town in a fictional world. You have 3+ hours to kill soaking in this sandbox before (optionally) heading to the theater and watching the film there. Now the experience of film has been broadened and deepened because the segment of player control also can be crafted to interplay with the content of the film. The same goes for visual art etc. Through simulation the ability to increasingly control the setting and integrate it intelligently into the presentation of a classic medium elevates the classic medium.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 15:18:28 2021 No.18500565 smell and touch can be innovated on also maybe electrodes that trick your brain into perceiving sensory information when the sensory information itself was never created

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 15:34:56 2021 No.18500641

>>18500545
I've programmed a few things that could generously be described as narrative video games, and written a few things that could very generously be described as literature. I think interactivity can just as easily be a liability.
Interactivity gives up a lot of control. You have less control over the pacing, and the player's center of attention. You have to take extra care with anything challenging, because if someone doesn't get it they can't just shrug and skip past it. You may not even have control over the order in which everything is experienced.
It's also just plain costly, leaving you with less time to spend on other aspects.
Interactivity has to be worth it for its own effects. You can't just make a better movie by adding interactivity, because that compromises on some of the good qualities of movies. Video games should be gamey, and some art shouldn't be gamey.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 17:34:56 2021 No.18501365 >>18498682 >>18498688 >>18499247 Film allows for more creative audiovisual presentation than stage theater does.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 22:09:35 2021 No.18502900 Direct neural stimulation creating a full hyper-dreamlike hallucination. Probably not for a few hundred years though.

Anonymous Mon Jun 21 22:59:19 2021 No.18503129

Wilful suspension of disbelief is closer to a "passive" interaction than any interpretation or imagining. The point is not interaction. In games the players are directed through their choices towards outcomes by rules. There is something more time-bound, rule-governed and outcome-directed. Art has motives but they are not simply your motives that you happen to bring to it, which you then submit to rules. I would disagree that car and fashion design are not arts. Whereas an installation that purports to "demand" "thought" or "contemplation" is often not art. The latter is often an idea or "design" in the sense of vague intention. A well-designed car or dress is a completed design and not just an idea, and is complete unto itself. You may even have to interact quite physically with it to fully appreciate it but it may be art.

Following the neuroscientific thread, anything that allows us further perception and knowledge, of ourselves, of others, of the world, will augment artistic possibilities. AI- and human-controlled characters are merely extrapolations of games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 23:03:29 2021 No.18503149 >>18500545 >Art doesn't exist because muh digital games are not art kek what a cope

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 23:06:41 2021 No.18503166 >>18498883 By this metric architecture is sort of not art

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 23:08:04 2021 No.18503174 >>18503166 Not really.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 23:22:15 2021 No.18503246 >>18503174 You interact with architecture

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 23:26:15 2021 No.18503264 >>18498663 genetic manipulation

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 23:47:17 2021 No.18503373 >>18498697 >LOOKING at a painting? >WATCHING a movie? >READING a book? >DISCUSSING philosophy Psht, not real art.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 21 23:48:58 2021 No.18503381 >>18498663 I think that cryptocurrency is a new medium of art with a lot of interesting implications.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 02:10:13 2021 No.18504087

>>18498663
>>18498677
VR has some paint apps that one can use to make paintings or animations. Would those be considered a new medium, since it is done in a virtual 3d space, or would it just be another offshoot of drawn art?

Example of the kind of art I'm talking about: https://vimeo.com/299093441

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 02:19:07 2021 No.18504113 >>18498883 Take your meds schizo

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 02:21:04 2021 No.18504122

>>18503381
NFTs are kinda following crypto methodologies but I can't help but feel repulsed about IP and ownership being more important than the essence or felling a work of art provokes, especially digital art, the 90% of NFTs are just bad graphic design

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 02:41:33 2021 No.18504191

>>18504122
Of course any great artist is going to have a lot of derivative followers, but objectively speaking the bitcoin white paper could be considered the most important essay of our generation. A modern Martin Luther.
What is art but a vitreous execution of technology? Bitcoin and Ethereum I'd consider a high art form, because they can take a specific technique (coding) and use it to execute something beautiful, exciting, and culturally significant.
It kind of takes me back to that Spenglarian argument that art is dead because civilization has already worked out the major cultural, metaphysical, spiritual, etc. debates and is now spiritually unfolding in the domain of technique. Things usually considered as art are mostly dead domains where there is very little to be said or contributed, or at least what is said and contributed has little impact on society. In a techno-financial system the real artists are people who's techno-financial innovations can spark massive systemic upheaval.
Last century had Picasso and Nabokov, this century has Bitcoin and that guy who figured out how to print guns with a 3d printer. Real artists seek out terra incognita, they don't sit around aping the masters of centuries past.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 03:13:17 2021 No.18504308

>>18503381
>>18504191
This is absurd. A headless vehicle of techno-financial speculation that is not even useable as a currency and could have been created by the CIA may excite you but it is not art. This is entirely beside the point of embracing and *using* technology because one participates in spirit. The Spengler "argument" is pure cope, a worship of headless rule by people who hide behind algorithms and liberal procedural obfuscation of naked accumulation. Stop changing the definitions of words. Literally no art has ever been created by anyone with the listless, flaccid spirit evinced by Spengler and your post.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 03:14:40 2021 No.18504312 >>18498663 art is dead so the only you'll get is more porn and advertisements.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 03:52:46 2021 No.18504470 One day we'll shift planet and stars to make a more aesthetically pleasing night sky, that will be called skyforming, and I'll be the best at it.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 03:59:52 2021 No.18504492
File: 11 KB, 267x400, 46069383.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>18504470
When the time comes I'll be writing screeds on 4chan tearing apart your work, saying it's not actually a truly new medium, and even if it was, see the ancients starforming work in pic related, who obviously did it better and said all there was to say in the medium.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:01:46 2021 No.18504495 >>18504492 Successful people (like me, in the future) do not care about schizos ranting on 4Chan

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:18:21 2021 No.18504540

>>18504495
Someone will post a screenshot of my post on your twitter feed, but giving a quick glance to its contents you'll feel something disquieting shift inside you, before dismissing them as a 4chan schizo by shooting off a quick 'Meds, now.'.
You'll know there's a seed of truth in the schizo rant and starforming will never have the glow it once held for you, you'll do a couple more uninspired pieces before fading back into obscurity.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:32:52 2021 No.18504580 >>18504540 I don't have a Twitter account, nor do I use Twitter, who do you think I am?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:37:20 2021 No.18504595 >>18504580 Successful?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:46:42 2021 No.18504619 Yes I do, and it tears me up inside that I'm too fuckin stupid to know what the next one will be.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:49:17 2021 No.18504625

>>18498663
Literature isn't art because it requires an effort and participation in the form of reading the words, like how video games aren't art because it requires playing. Film, music, painting, etc. require no effort to have experienced, so clearly this is the demarcation of art.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:52:17 2021 No.18504639
File: 3.71 MB, 1857x987, 1624086568875.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

films are not art, no film can approach the great works of literature and music. I've seen acclaimed directors like Yang and Welles and it's all very cheap, minimum talent required.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:57:04 2021 No.18504651
File: 67 KB, 998x599, 1471717794116 (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>18504639
In fact I respect videogames a lot more than film because modeling, animating, programming, level designing are real talents, Anyone can point a camera and film things.
For the same reason anime is also superior to film.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 04:59:40 2021 No.18504665 [DELETED]

File: 858 KB, 745x851, 7643658000.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>18504619
>literature isn't art unless its an audio book
>films aren't art because I don't like them, trust me I've seen a couple.
moronic opinions hidden in fancy words, posts like these are why /lit/ has a reputation for being 90% pseuds.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 22 05:00:37 2021 No.18504667 >>18504651 That's a retarded take. You used Stalker as an example, you have absolutely no idea how hard it is to film a movie like Stalker.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 05:02:11 2021 No.18504676
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The essence of what makes a videogame a videogame "the gameplay" is most defenitley not art, it provoques no emotion and offers no means of contemplation. It's just an adrenaline rush, a game. If you boil down videogames to their essence say Tetris or Pong, it becomes very clear that what you have is most defenitley not art.
You can take away the written word from film and have a film with no dialogue or narrative (Koyonisqatsi, Colours of pomgrenates) and you can still have a piece capable of provoking emotion and allowing contemplation.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 05:03:42 2021 No.18504683

>>18504619
that's a weird thing to say, you think geniuses of the past were able to predict current art mediums?

>>18504625
>literature isn't art unless its an audio book
>>18504639
>films aren't art because I don't like them, trust me I've seen a couple.
moronic opinions hidden in fancy words, posts like these two are why /lit/ has a reputation for being 90% pseuds.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 05:08:39 2021 No.18504694

>>18504676
Gameplay is only a part of what makes a videogames, and you can definitely create emotion through it, I fondly remember my early Minecraft days in 2011, how I discovered the world, explored, it was art, because it made me feel deep emotions.
You have videogames that are art, for instance Pathologic 2.
The main issue with current videogames isn't the videogame itself, but the time in which we live.
Have you not noticed how most movies, most books, even most paintings made nowadays are absolutely bland and devoid of emotion? The problem of videogames is that they were all created in the past 50 years, and like most works of arts in the past 50 years, they are bland and childish.
But I'm sure that if videogames existed 2000 years ago, we would have incredible works of videogame art by now.

Anonymous Tue Jun 22 05:08:58 2021 No.18504696

>>18504676
I hate the game, but Brothers: A tale of two sons is a refutation of your point. If played on a controller one brother is assigned to each half of the controller. When in the narrative one of the brothers dies that side of the controller is dead and unusable. Until the very end where the surviving brother has to overcome a fear and the player must help with input from the dead brothers side to comfort the living brother. It's as kitschy as it sounds, but it is a direct refutation of your absurd claim. Gameplay used as device to provoke emotion.

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/lit/ - Literature