/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18496019]

what do the Stoics mean when they are discussing freedom from desire? How would you ever accomplish anything if you had no desires? This passage was too accurate it hurt
>Is it not better to use your own power in freedom rather than show a servile and supine concern for what you cannot control? And who told you that the gods do not help us even to the ends which lie within our own power? At any rate, pray about these things, and you will see. One pan prays: "How can I sleep with that woman? Your prayer is: How can I lose the desire to sleep with her?... And so on ... Give all your prayers this turn, and observe what happens." (Meditations, Book 9.40)

[Anonymous No.18496028]

>>18496019
>lol just don't worry about it!
>t. some rich emperor

[Anonymous No.18496036]

>>18496019
>Another prays: 'How can I be rid of that man?' You pray: 'How can I stop wanting to be rid of him?'
Willing something and persevering through struggles and finally acting it out is surely more satisfying than trying to not want it at all right? Some of the stuff Aurelius is discussing make perfect sense and I agree with but other aspects of it seem completely wrong to me.
stoicism general itt

[Anonymous No.18496063]

Another passage
>Be like the rocky headland on which the waves constantly break. Its stands firm, and round it the seething waters are laid to rest. 'It is my bad luck that this has happened to me' No, you should rather say: 'It is my good luck that, although this has happened to me, I can bear it without pain, neither crushed by the present nor fearful of the future.' Because such a thing could have happened to any man, but not every man could have borne it without pain. So why see more misfortune in the event than good fortune in your ability to bear it?..." (Meditations, Book 4.49)

[Anonymous No.18496076]

>>18496028
>lol just don't worry about it!
>t. some random slave

[Anonymous No.18496085]

>>18496063
Something like this resonates with me and makes perfect sense, you are in complete control of how you let things affect you. But I also interpret it as willing, wanting, or desiring, something to happen, and then being able to control yourself and remain strong when it does not. Yes you failed, or some obstacle came up, but that is ok and you can still bear it as a rock and continue onward. Being free from desire is not an unmovable stone, it is a dandelion swept any which direction in the wind.

[Anonymous No.18496097]

>>18496019
The best way to be free from desire? Do it

[Anonymous No.18496105]

>>18496085
>Being free from desire is not an unmovable stone, it is a dandelion swept any which direction in the wind
After typing that out I can see how it isn't completely true actually, desires can be fickle and would in fact pull you in any which direction (think like a dog chasing everything in a park)
But at the same time "desirelessness" does not seem like an ideal state either. Defining a goal and toiling daily to move towards it and willing it into existence is the essence of masculinity and civilization

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDY3cHnRY No.18496114]

>>18496019


YOU SHOULD OCCUPY, NOT PREOCCUPY, YOURSELF; DESIRE POLLUTES THE WILL, AND OBNUBILATES JUDGEMENT; YOU SHOULD DO THINGS RATIONALLY, EFFECTIVELY, AND EFFICIENTLY, WITHOUT LONGING, AND WITHOUT WORRY.

[Anonymous No.18496121]

/blogposting/ here but you get the idea, this dilemma has been bothering me, the stoics are not the only sect who preach trying to free yourself from desire.. I am completely socially isolated and have no one to discuss with so I was hoping to get some input from this Azerbaijani psued philosophy forum

[Anonymous No.18496196]

>>18496076
>don't worry about it
>t. some random 4chan neet

[Anonymous No.18496237]

I remember reading some very subtle discussions of the stoics, about how they didn't even believe you can totally master your own emotions or desires, just that you should always act with equanimity and restrain when you can act.

Of course there were people in antiquity who tried to disprove these philosophies of quietism and self-control, eudaimonia and ataraxia and so forth, by asking (or, I guess, showing) that the stoic still feels pain, or can still be enticed by a nice ass or something. The thing I was reading said that the reply of these and related schools wasn't to deny this, but to say that exceptional circumstances are just that, exceptional, and the point of self-control is to make it your ideal and your orienting star. Over a long time doing this you will of course get better at mastering the passions themselves, but even the sage can be distracted.

The idea of all this was to emphasise that it's about practically dedicating yourself to these ideals, not about creating false dichotomies in your head between invincible sages and lowly mortals.

[Anonymous No.18496317]

>>18496019
I get what you are saying. You always hear that the increased attention to ideas surrounding humility, asceticism, minimalism, freedom from desire, etc. will always be a positive addition in one's life but I don't necessarily agree with that anymore.
Without blog posting too much..in my early 20's I had a period where I applied it seriously to almost every aspect of my life. To name a few: got rid of my bed and slept on the floor, took only freezing cold showers, ate the same tasteless food everyday, stopped spending money on anything unnecessary, and so on.
Now I'm in my mid-20's and I am left with no ambition to make my situation better. I am content with the bare minimum and I have no desires to work harder or take risks for a better house, better things, or anything that I don't already have.
Yet, I have this nagging feeling that I may want to change someday and by that that time it may be too late to...
I think stoicism and any schools of thought similar to the values I listed above are great for older people who have not yet accepted their lot in life, as swearing away any unattainable desires would be good for them in the end.
For anybody under 30 however, I think these values would actually be detrimental. One's youth is the only time that one can afford to take risks and make mistakes in the path of success, and one should be as selfish, self-assured, and greedy as possible. Acceptance should be reserved only for after you've made a life for yourself.

[Anonymous No.18496334]

>>18496028
He had to deal with plagues and usurpers and barbarian invasions killing his people. You'd be crying for your mommy if you had to deal with all that shit.

[Anonymous No.18496403]

>>18496317
>One's youth is the only time that one can afford to take risks and make mistakes in the path of success
This is not at all true

[Anonymous No.18496414]

>>18496317
>To name a few: got rid of my bed and slept on the floor, took only freezing cold showers, ate the same tasteless food everyday, stopped spending money on anything unnecessary, and so on.
Also stoicism isn't self-flagellation

[Anonymous No.18496417]

>>18496317

The more I live and experience life, the more I believe that the writer if Ecclesiastes is right.

"I have concluded that there is nothing better for people
than to be happy and to enjoy
themselves as long as they live,
and also that everyone should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in all his toil,
for these things are a gift from God."


"Rejoice, young man, while you are young,
and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth.
Follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes,
but know that God will judge your motives and actions.
Banish emotional stress from your mind.
and put away pain from your body;
for youth and the prime of life are fleeting."

[Anonymous No.18496510]

>>18496019
MY
FUCKING
BRAIN
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Anonymous No.18496547]

>>18496019
All great thoughts, thanks for the input its definitely a nuanced and complicated thing to consider.
If I see a woman I desire, surely that is a more motivated state and superior to trying to perform some mental gymnastics and convincing myself no I don't really want her. Or if I am able so successfully remove my desire and genuinely feel indifferent as to having her or not - I have removed one motivation to accomplish anything in life. Sitting in a perpetual state of contentedness or desirelessness is a recipe for disaster.
obviously this example applies across all fields of life but struck a nerve as its something I've been dealing with lately and was surprised when he mentioned it directly (turns out men have been having the same issues for 2000 years)
t. haven't had sex in 3 years

[Anonymous No.18496646]

>>18496028
>just worry about it and suffer
>t. some pleb on an imageboard