/pg/ - Platonism General

[Anonymous No.18478575]

Previous thread: >>18474920
Prior threads: >>18402046 & >>18385968

Discord: https://discord.gg/nNgfFT46

Plato's Dialogues

The following is the general order the Neoplatonists of Iamblichus, Syrianus, and Proclus' school [The Anonymous Prolegomena to Platonic Doctrine] recommended reading Plato's dialogues in, merged with recommendations from previous threads and John M. Cooper's order.

If you get stuck with something Plato is saying, check either Proclus or Ficino's commentaries. If, somehow, they don't resolve the aporia, go to the secondary sources list. The dialogues with "⦾" are marked as essential parts of the "Platonic Canon" by the three aforementioned Neoplatonists: a decad crowned by the Timaeus and Parmenides. Curiously, the Republic and Laws were not part of the curriculum. Those marked with "*" are of disputed authorship or is confirmed to be written by Plato's students but circulated under his name. Once you finish Timaeus and Parmenides (esp. the latter), you can comfortably start reading the Neoplatonists.

-- THE ORDER OF PLATO'S DIALOGUES --

⦾ Alcibiades I
>Protagoras
⦾ Gorgias
>Laws, Books I-V
>Euthyphro
>Apology
>Crito
⦾ Phaedo

⦾ Cratylus
⦾ Theaetetus
⦾ Sophist
⦾ Statesman
>Laws, Book X
>Meno
⦾ Phaedrus
>Ion
⦾ Symposium
⦾ Philebus
>Republic
⦾ Timaeus
>Critias
⦾ Parmenides
>Laws, Books VI-IX, XI-XXVI
>Epinomis*

>The Letters

>Alcibiades II*
>Hipparchus
>Rival Lovers*
>Theages*
>Charmides
>Laches
>Lysis
>Euthydemus
>Greater Hippias
>Lesser Hippias
>Menexenus
>Clitophon
>Minos*

>Definitions*
>On Justice*
>On Virtue*
>Demodocus
>Sisyphus*
>Halcyon*
>Eryxias*
>Axiochus*
>Epigrams*

[Anonymous No.18478591]

For a proper introduction to Platonic metaphysics, philosophy and it's historical background that isn't butchered by academic caricatures:
>Eric D. Perl - Thinking Being
>Algis Uždavinys - Orpheus and the Roots of Platonism
>Kenneth Sylvan Guthrie - The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library
>Lloyd P. Gerson - From Plato to Platonism

Middle Platonism:
>Stephen Gersh - Middle Platonism and Neoplatonism

Neoplatonism:
>Porphyry - Launching-Points to the Realm of Mind
>Llyod P. Gerson - Plotinus
>Gregory Shaw - Theurgy and the Soul
>Radek Chlup - Proclus
>Sara Rappe - Reading Neoplatonism

Christian Neoplatonism:
>Eric D. Perl - Theophany
>Eric D. Perl - Methexis
>Deirdre Carabine - The Unknown God
>Stephen Gersh - From Iamblichus to Eriugena
>Fran O'Rourke - Ps. Dionysius and the Metaphysics of Aquinas
>David Albertson - Mathematical Theologies
>Michael Allen - Ficino

Max Tegmark's Mathematical Universe is a great read too.

When reading Plato's Dialogues, a good practice would be to read them alongside Proclus' or Marsilio Ficino's commentaries.

Resources & notes:
If you can get the Loeb print of a text, opt for that. the Cooper transl. of Plato is fine.
Plotinus' Enneads + Commentary
>https://www.parmenides.com/publications/publications-plotinus.html
Proclus' Elements of Theology w/ Dodds’ commentary.
The Classics of Western Spirituality Series is good but with Ps. Dionysius, read the Rev. John Parker transl. instead:
>https://sacred-texts.com/chr/dio/index.htm
The only good print of Eriugena's Division of Nature:
>https://books.doaks.org/catalog/book/periphyseon
Wayne J. Hankey's publications:
>https://independent.academia.edu/WayneHankey
Gregory Shaw’s publications:
>https://stonehill.academia.edu/GregoryShaw
Intro to mathematical Platonism:
>https://critique-of-pure-interest.blogspot.com/2016/04/prelude-to-mathematical-neo-platonism_42.html?m=1
Ancient Commentaries on Aristotle
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaria_in_Aristotelem_Graeca

[Anonymous No.18478602]

>Plato's banquet is almost entirely concerned with love, not merely with men in love with women, or women with men, lusts subject to the laws of nature, but of men with males differing from them only in respect of age...
Philo, On The Contemplative Life, early 00s

no no no we got too cocky platobros

[Anonymous No.18478642]

Playtoe

[Anonymous No.18478672]

gonna start with plato

[Anonymous No.18478680]

>>18478575
Go to /his/

[Anonymous No.18478718]

>>18478575
Wow, I actually tried to engage fully and really try to understand the books instead of just reading them passively.
The world really opens up.

[Anonymous No.18478858]

>>18478680
If you were in my presence, I would slaughter you.

[Anonymous No.18478877]

>>18478858
with what, your stubby little greasy inbred fingers?

[Anonymous No.18478900]

>>18478602
Is platonism bussypilled

[Anonymous No.18478929]

>>18478877
None of those words apply to me, you would urinate in my presence. Believe me.

[Anonymous No.18479509]

>>18478575
the discord link doesn't work no more, could someone provide a new one?

[Anonymous No.18479518]

>>18478575
Does anyone have a good book on the history of the reception of Plato? By this i mean the history of the corpus itself, its translation, its publications, its receptions and influence

[Anonymous No.18479831]

>>18479518
Read the fist post.
For an alternative:
http://dcac.du.ac.in/documents/E-Resource/2020/Metrial/413RatikaAnand1.pdf

[Anonymous No.18479896]

How do you go from platonism to Christ?

[Anonymous No.18480045]

What were the Neoplatonist's thoughts on suicide?

[Anonymous No.18480048]

>>18479896
the gnostics, of course.

[Anonymous No.18480052]

>>18480048
I don't find dualism very convincing and most importantly I don't believe this world to be evil.

[Anonymous No.18480099]

>>18479896
St. Augustine was a Platonist earlier in life, and Platonism remained his biggest non Christian influence. I'm looking at the seventh chapter of his Confessions right now which talks about his relation to Platonism, and I know he's also written about the subject in the city of God.

[Anonymous No.18480103]

>>18480099
Thanks

[Anonymous No.18480333]

>>18479831
may the Good shine through on your every deed, you beautiful provider of bibliography

[Anonymous No.18480903]

båmp

[Anonymous No.18481291]

>>18479896
st augustine and http://bactra.org/Mirandola/

[Anonymous No.18481357]

>>18479896
Bruno is not a normal christian but Bruno

[Anonymous No.18481363]

>>18479896
Ficino

[Anonymous No.18481388]

Hello frens

Eberytime I read Can't and Hugel I think of how mech better Neoplatonism is :-/

[Anonymous No.18481430]

ER DODDS SEEMS CRINGE AND ATHEISTIC

[Anonymous No.18481451]

>>18481388
Modern philosophy was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.18481460]

>>18480048
True but I maintain Basilides was the most convincing because he didn't go down the 'blame the Demiurge' route and maintained the Father was in control of everything and His Providence was always good.

[Anonymous No.18481462]

>>18481388
pico's portrait is one of the least charitable portraits

[Anonymous No.18481474]

>>18481462

[Anonymous No.18481534]

>>18481474
He was actually a handsome pal

>>18481451
True

[Anonymous No.18481845]

>>18478900
whats this?

[Anonymous No.18481937]

>>18481845
The platonic gnosis through erotic mania is obtained through eros - love - love of typically young men

[Anonymous No.18481954]

>>18481388
How is Eckhart a Neoplatonist? If he is, then surely Tauler would be as well, but I'm pretty sure he's just a purely Christian mystic.

[Anonymous No.18481968]

>>18481937 to continue
this is the love that takes dante to heaven in the form of Beatrice.

There's also the whole Christian mystic thing of becoming the wife of Jesus i could imagine is related to this as well

[Anonymous No.18481977]

>>18481474
He could be the beanie anon.

[Anonymous No.18482009]

>>18481388
holy fuck just remove bruno

[Anonymous No.18482023]

>>18479896
It's usually by realizing the inadequacies of Plotinus. That's how it was for Augustine and many others who followed suite.

[Anonymous No.18482034]

>>18481977
kek

[Anonymous No.18482052]

Why are Platonist texts so enjoyable to read? I get a kind of giddy excitment reading the recommended texts. I think I may have found my way into thought. This writings just seems to be IT.

[Anonymous No.18482053]

>>18478575
Parsifal is the only artwork which shows anamnesis occurring in life, and as a result it is an inversion of Schopenhauer's pessimism, and thoroughly Platonic.

https://youtu.be/dzeNnoMmsjM?t=12905

[Anonymous No.18482055]

>consider lost all the time in which you do not think of divinity

[Anonymous No.18482083]

>>18482055
I do consider this from time to time, though it doesnt depress me, more it makes me feel a sense of deep gratitude

[Anonymous No.18482613]

>>18482052
What texts are you reading?

[Anonymous No.18482683]

>>18481474

[Anonymous No.18483733]

>>18481954
Christian mysticism is almost entirely Platonic

[Anonymous No.18483796]

>>18483733
But surely he an individual must have read the Neoplatonists to be called one, at least? Christian mysticism may be almost no different from Neoplatonism, in an ostensible metaphysical way, but I still think it's wrong to call someone like Eckhart a Neoplatonist if that similarity (however strong) only comes from the importance of Neoplatonism on Christianity's creation. There is also the emotional difference between Greek culture and Christian-Germanic culture, which I think stops one from simply interpreting all of metaphysics/mysticism in the reductive treatise-like way in which Guenon works.

Just look at the Crucifix, even just on an aesthetic level, colours mysticism under Christianity completely differently.

[Anonymous No.18483809]

>>18483796
not necessarily, because it can be in the ambient without no need to even know anything about neoplatonism, since neoplatonism has always been a key influence in theology

[Anonymous No.18483819]

>>18479896
Why would you want to do that?

[Anonymous No.18483827]

>>18482009
The magical and mnemonical writings of Bruno are steeped in platonism, anon.

[Anonymous No.18483874]

>>18480045
plotinus himself wrote on suicide, its in the enneads. He convinced his disciple porphyry not to commit it

[Anonymous No.18483918]

>>18482023
>the inadequacies of Plotinus.
What are they?

[Anonymous No.18483919]

>>18480052

Gnosticism is the only Monist idea there is.

[Anonymous No.18483937]

How to begin with Plotinus please?

[Anonymous No.18483979]

>>18480052
>dualism and le-evil-world = gnosticism
No, that's just the worst and corrupted part of it. Gnosticism is actually a very wise doctrine/mythology.

[Anonymous No.18483983]

>>18483979
Where can I read about true gnosticism?

[Anonymous No.18484008]

>>18478575
The Discord Link doesn't work no more, could someone provide a new one?

Pls

[Anonymous No.18484011]

>>18483937
Read the Enneads

[Anonymous No.18484013]

>>18484008
https://discord.gg/rC93FJAu

[Anonymous No.18484024]

>>18484011
Can I start with the one I want or is the order important?

[Anonymous No.18484041]

>>18483983
Mircea Eliade's History of Religious Ideas and Beliefs has a very good chapter on it. Otherwise you could check the classics by Hans Jonas and Henri-Charles Puech. Gnostic texts to be read are the Gnostic Gospels and Apocalypses, and Pistis Sophia. Pistis Sophia is kinda boring because the writing is fuzzy and verbose, but the myth in itself is very meaningful.

[Anonymous No.18484043]

>>18484013
Thanks anon

[Anonymous No.18484045]

>>18483918
Basically Neoplatonism is an S+ tier philosophical system that brings together metaphysics, epistemology and ethics into a perfect unity, but it doesn't really offer very much for day to day life for the average person. It's all well and good to say that we should strive to achieve unity with the One through intellection but consider what this means, can you see most people chilling out reading the Enneads or engaging in serious contemplation on the forms? The issue is that Neoplatonism is a Philosophers Philosophy as as such it focuses on the way of life for a Philosopher. Which is great if you can be a philosopher! Most people can't and that creates a quandry, is everyone else who wasn't born into families wealthy enough to let a person go to the academy and spend their days philosophizing doomed because they can't rise to the sphere of Nous?

This is where Christianity steps in and fixes up a core problem of Neoplatonism. God doesn't want you to achieve unity with him through pure contemplation of Him (though that's certainly not discouraged), but rather by a life of faith, fidelity to the teachings of Jesus Christ, growing Holiness through the sacraments and by adhering to the tenets of the new law, namely love of God and love of neighbor. In this way salvation isn't restricted to an enlightened few, like in Gnosticism but is available to all people. The life of faith offers a direct path to God apart from the life of a philosopher, a path anyone can tread and gives a tangible framework to actually make Neoplatonism not just an intellectual curiosity but something that can be lived by every day.

There's also the issue that God as Plotinus conceives of it is more like a principle than a personality. There's no real way to get to know God as a personality, Christian revelation solves that problem and reveals that as we reach up toward God that God is reaching down to us and we can know God personally, that is as a personality who desires things from us and not just as a principle or a conception.

[Anonymous No.18484063]

>>18484045
You very well explained why Neoplatonism is so much better than Christianity for me. Better if it remains esoteric, after all.

[Anonymous No.18484420]

Could someone explain the "neoplatonism is annihilationism" thing that's been floating around?

[Anonymous No.18484424]

>>18484420
Nonsense.

[Anonymous No.18484432]

>>18484424
I mean, hinduism posters say the same thing but they're wrong.

[Anonymous No.18484441]

>>18484063
Many of the Platonists disagreed with you, like Origen, Augustine and Victorinus. Being esoteric means nothing so long as it's simply an intellectual exercise that doesn't significantly change your everyday life. Even the Neoplatonists after Plotinus disagreed with you since Proclus and Iamblichus start stressing the need for Theurgy more strongly rather than mere philosophizing.

[Anonymous No.18484572]

>>18484441
Maybe you misunderstood what I meant by "esoteric"? I mean that it's better if it remains a philosophy for few, not necessarily initiatory but still not so widespread. This is a trait of many ancient doctrines, from Hermeticism to Pythagorism, and the Neoplatonists descend from this long tradition.

[Anonymous No.18484746]

>>18484572
Why do you want to be stingy with what you think is correct? That hardly seems kind to others.

[Anonymous No.18484760]

>>18484572
>I mean that it's better if it remains a philosophy for few
Why? In practical terms that means you can't have a Platonic State like a Christian State.

[Anonymous No.18484763]

>>18484424
How is the ego considered by the Neoplatonists?

[Anonymous No.18484767]

>>18484572
This is pretty much why Gnosticism sucks in a nutshell. You think you have the correct view on the world but you want to hide it from others because it makes you feel special? Dumb. The truth belongs to all, you can't hoard it and make it your personal possession.

[Anonymous No.18484783]

>>18484746
I don't want to be stingy; if I meet a person who I believe can understand and appreciate Neoplatonism I would introduce them to it. But most people can't, and if you try talking about it with the wrong person you do more harm than good. So I think it's better if it doesn't have a practical/ritualistic side – unlike Eastern doctrines, that have become trendy among instagram thots and even in political clownworld.

[Anonymous No.18484784]

>>18484767
>The truth belongs to all
Nah.

>Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Anonymous No.18484802]

>>18478929
Post physique

[Anonymous No.18484824]

>>18484760
>In practical terms that means you can't have a Platonic State like a Christian State
In fact you can't.

>>18484767
>You think you have the correct view on the world but you want to hide it from others because it makes you feel special?
You're putting your own thoughts in my mouth. I said that it's better if Neoplatonism, as it is, doesn't have an exoteric side. Christianity at the current moment is a wreckage because the practical/ritualistic side of it ruined its reputation. This entails the risk that the original essence of the Christian message gets irreparably lost. Neoplatonism, differently, remains and has remained pure throughout the centuries. Its doctrine is neither secret nor hidden – the books are everywhere. But it is a fact that, despite this availability, only few people can get into it.

[Anonymous No.18484848]

>>18484824
>Neoplatonism, differently, remains and has remained pure throughout the centuries
That's because it was a dead end anon. There was nowhere else to go. That's not an indication Neoplatonism is somehow more resistant to change its indicative that it's run its course and cannot move further toward the truth. The Christian State extinguished Neoplatonism for that exact reason. Because of the exoteric side of Christianity Neoplatonism ceased to be a living theology and became a relic. This is evolution.

[Anonymous No.18484888]

>>18484824
>This entails the risk that the original essence of the Christian message gets irreparably lost
That is a risk, but on the other hand you can't ignore society as a whole as part of your philosophy. Plato himself engaged in speculation over the form of the optimal society. No philosophy is complete until it can be put into practice to inform the right living of both individuals and the society as a whole. Neoplatonism, for all its brilliance, can never offer that. And if you just want to practice Neoplatonism as one man, being an island unto yourself, then are you not just contributing to the core problem of modernity? The truth must go beyond the individual and penetrate into the social realm precisely because there is a unity of soul and nobody can uplift themselves.

[Anonymous No.18484895]

This thread was moved to >>>/his/11380538