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/lit/ - Literature

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18416789 No.18416789 [Reply] [Original]

Would you consider James Joyce on the same level as someone like Bach or Beethoven (or Shakespeare and homer)?

>> No.18416797

Well if you're ranking art then Bach >>> James Joyce >>> Beethoven

>> No.18416798

>>18416789
No, le epic reference fart man is good but nowhere near that level.

>> No.18416802

>>18416789
Bach and Beethoven? Maybe
Shakespeare and Homer? Never, but time will tell.

>> No.18416806

>>18416789
No writer is as good as Beethoven or Bach. Besides Melville maybe

>> No.18416810

>>18416806
Moby dick is the only English thing ive read on that tier but since I only know English, its possible that the divine comedy or the Iliad or Faust is on that tier and I couldnt know

>> No.18416825

>>18416789
I can't read Homer in the original so I can't really judge him but sensible people throughout history who can have agreed he's pretty good.

Bach, Beethoven, Shakespeare — not even close.

>> No.18417123

>>18416797
Listen to Beethoven's op 111 faggot

>> No.18417127

>>18416789
I like Faulkner's short stories better than his

>> No.18417134

>>18416789
Yes. Read Richard Ellman's biography of him and it's blindingly obvious he was a once in an age genius.

>> No.18417202

Shostakovich>>>Beckett>>>everyone else
/thread

>> No.18417221

>>18416789
he moggs 'em all in their own department
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPjgE29xi1k

>> No.18417237

>>18416789
No

>> No.18417312

>>18416789
Whats the deal with incredible men of genius being obsessed with women's farts?

>> No.18417389

>>18417134
Ellman's biography is a great. Spent a month or so diving into it. Joyce led a fascinating, almost heroic life in his resilience to dissolution and ennui.

>> No.18417559

>>18417123
Beethoven is the most overrated shit there is. He’s good at seasoning but his raw material is shit.

>> No.18417952

>>18417559
Listen to his op 53, 57, and all his late piano sonatas (op 111 especially) and the Diabelli variations. Going to assume you've only heard his symphonies and the Moonlight sonata. Your judgement to judging Melville as overrated from only reading Typee, or Shakespeare after reading Titus. Fair from what you've read, but misinformed.

If you have listened to these (I can't believe you have), why do you find him overrated?

>> No.18417968

>>18416789
This is something I've had to think about often. He is a genius, but he's not as great or important as a Shakespeare, no.

>> No.18417975

>>18417559
Dilettante opinion.

>> No.18417988

>>18417221
Honestly feels like reading Ulysses.

>> No.18417991

>>18417975
Dilettantes are based

>> No.18418002

>>18417991
Not when they're trying to explain why Beethoven sucks through food analogies.

>> No.18418026

>>18416789
yes

>> No.18418078

>>18416789
Shakespeare was writing for the masses. His plays were popular with lower and middle classes. It's not even certain Homer wrote The Iliad and The Odyssey and they were likely just a collation of an oral epic poetry tradition developed by the masses.

Joyce was writing for an exclusively intellectual audience familiar with the history of British Literature/History so there is no comparison.

In terms of classical music, a comparison with Wagner who introduced an entirely new approach to Opera would be more appropriate. Or perhaps Debussy. But not Bach or Beethoven, they would have been more like the older English literature Joyce parodied in a number of chapters.

>> No.18418088

>>18418078
Reddit spacing to match reddit opinions

>> No.18418247

>>18417202
Ultra-based

>> No.18418272

>>18416806
Dante is. Not sure why Americans think Moby-Dick is the only book in history.

>> No.18418276

>>18416789
There are passages in Ulysses that are not unworthy of Shakespeare.

>> No.18418348
File: 385 KB, 951x1390, wagner-richard-2251813-1321883-german-composer-portrait-profile-after-photograph-wood-engraving-by-adolf-neumann-19th-century-XAM8XB.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18418348

>>18416789
>Shakespeare therefore remained incomparable until German genius produced in Beethoven someone who can only be explained by analogy with him. If we sum up the complex of Shakespeare’s characters, as they interreact with uncommon intensity into their total effect on our innermost feeling; and if we place beside this complex that of Beethoven’s motivic world with its irrepressible forcefulness and certainty, then we must be aware that these worlds are congruent in such a way that each is contained within the other even if they appear to inhabit different spheres.

>> No.18418520

>>18417127
How do you cover it up like that?

>> No.18418644

bach is barely ever good.

>> No.18418654

>>18416789
No

>> No.18418803

>>18418088
Does that mean I don't get to hang out with you cool kids on /lit/, smoke cigarettes and act angsty?

>> No.18418827

no. solely because portrait is a bad book after the first three chapters. to be on that level you can never miss, joyce missed

>> No.18418900

>>18418520
Highlight text, and then press ctrl+s. Or you can just do it manually by typing [/-spoiler] just remove the dash because I had to put it there otherwise it would look like this.

>> No.18418912

>>18418900
What the fuck just happened?

>> No.18419261

>>18417202
nah

>> No.18419287

>>18416789
no. the only novelist up there is Leo Tolstoy.

>> No.18419300

>>18416802
Genuinely curious why people regard Homer so highly.

>> No.18419306

>>18418078
Wagner Is massively overrated don't compare Joyce to him

>> No.18419310

>>18418272
cause only a small amount of Americans can read Italian. seems pretty obvious

>> No.18419346

>>18419306
It's funny that you say that because Joyce was a massive fan of Wagner and repeatedly gave credit to him for inspiring his own art.

People who say Wagner is overrated don't know what they're talking about.

>> No.18419365

>>18419346
Joyce also liked farts. I don't agree with the man on everything

>> No.18419409

>>18419365
But Joyce considered Wagner essential to his own art, and his is true. You can find countless resources that talk about the connection, the most important but not the most unique or particular probably being the inner monologue/stream of consciousness.

Wagner is perhaps the central figure of artistic modernity but plebs are still in the dark on it.

>> No.18419559

bump

>> No.18419598

AAAAHHHHHH I HATE DILETTANTES YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MUSIC SHUT UP SHUT UP AHHHHHH SHUT UP

>> No.18419626

>>18416789
Not even fucking close. I only enjoyed Dubliners. Ulysses was slog to read and A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man was bore.

>> No.18419640

ive only read Dubliners and portrait. there are a few moments in Dubliners that reach Bach levels but Bach is so consistently beautiful and harmonic. not sure If I know another artist as good.

>> No.18419725

>>18417134
This. Genius is a term which is wantonly abused these days but if any 20th century writer had genius on par with Bach, Joyce did. Genius is like any other natural phenomenon. You might be indifferent to it, you might find it repulsive but to deny its existence is just plain delusion.

>> No.18419740

>>18417312
It takes real intellectual depth to be able to appreciate the juxtaposition of something so putrid coming out of something so beautiful.

>> No.18419976

>>18419725
But one must return back to the age old retard question, "but what is he saying?" and it seems no one has much of an answer yet. I for one cannot call Joyce a genius of the highest order because of this.

>> No.18420316

>>18419409
>Wagner is perhaps the central figure of artistic modernity but plebs are still in the dark on it
That's why I thought Wagner was more comparable to Joyce although I wasn't aware of his admiration for Wagner. The opening chord structure of Tristan and Isolde revolutionised classical music in much the same way as Ulysses did literature. Neither were ever the same after. Not only that but Wagner like Joyce was an excruciating self task master by writing both the libretto and musical score to his operas. That was unheard of in opera.

>> No.18420738

>>18418900
Thanks fren

>> No.18420749

cum