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/lit/ - Literature

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1839953 No.1839953 [Reply] [Original]

Did the Balrogs have wings?

Were Orcs immortal?

How did Morgoth create the Trolls and the Dragons?

What was the mission of the Blue Wizards, and what was their fate?

Let's hear your ideas /lit/.

>> No.1839955

no, no, magic, who cares

>> No.1839956
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1839956

Here's what sparse information there is on the Blue Wizards.

>Of the Five Wizards, only three came into the story. Was anything known about the other two?

>Very little. No names given them in Middle-earth are recorded, just the title Ithryn Luin, 'The Blue Wizards' (for they were clad in sea-blue) (their names in Valinor were Alatar and Pallando). When the Istari first arrived in Middle-earth, Saruman and the Blue Wizards journeyed into the east, but only Saruman returned. The Essay on the Istari says: "whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not not known." (UT, p. 390)

>Tolkien speaking as himself was only barely more explicit. In a letter he said that he knew "nothing clearly" about the other two: 'I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.' (Letters, p. 280).

>> No.1839954

>>>/idgaf/

>> No.1839958
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1839958

>>1839955
>"The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."

Sounds like it had wings to me.

>> No.1839961

>>1839958
Sauce?

>> No.1839963

>>1839958
Wings of shadow, as I recall. Which I would argue might be more of a great shadow cast by the Balrog than actual physical wings. But I don't have the book on hand as you seem to.

>> No.1839967

>>1839963

It's made of shadow and flame.

>> No.1839969
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1839969

>"The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."

Honestly it is pretty unclear whether Tolkien was referring to real wings or he just used the term to describe the shadows that spread around the Balrog.

>> No.1839971

>>1839967
I'm perfectly comfortable with the Balrog having 'wings of shadow and flame' but not actual leathery physical wings with which it can fly. I think if you're saying that the Balrog had wings you're implying that it had the latter

>> No.1839987
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1839987

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB6.html#spread

Here's a pretty long essay about Balrogs and their alleged wings.

It's pretty interesting, I think.

>> No.1840005

>Did the Balrogs have wings?

Does this matter at fucking all?

>> No.1840008
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1840008

>There is also some reason to think that Orcs, like Elves, are immortal. (Gorbag and Shagrat, during the conversation which Sam overheard, mention the "Great Siege", which presumably refers to the Last Alliance; it is possible to interpret this reference to mean that they were there and actually remembered it themselves.)

Personally I think that's a shaky argument. I mean it's not like they'd have to have been there to know about the Great Siege and Sauron's defeat.

>> No.1840012

I imagine orcs more as unstable homunculi who are probably rotting away while still alive and have a short life span. They are disposable soldiers made from dark magicks after all.

>> No.1840013

>>1840005
Among die hard Tolkien fans, it is a matter of much contention.

>> No.1840023
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1840023

I wonder how Morgoth made the Dragons and Trolls because only Eru could actually create life.

If Trolls were nothing more than golems made from bits of animated stone, could they said to really be alive however?

And I've heard it suggested that the dragons were Maia locked into lizard form by Morgoth.

>> No.1840036

>>1839953
Yes.

Yes,

Dragons, Yes, Trolls, possibly.

Unknown.

Ideas:

Morgoth created trolls, as he created almost everything chaotic in the Ea. Balrog wings are vestigial, simply a representation of the ferocity and power. The blue wizards were sent to Eastern earth where possibly another struggle was taking place. They most probably failed seeing how they never re-appeared save in fan-fictions.

>> No.1840041

>>1840036
>The blue wizards were sent to Eastern earth where possibly another struggle was taking place.

I don't think so, all the Wizards were sent for the purpose of defeating Sauron.

They were supposed to help the men of Harad and Rhun break free from his grasp, or something.

>> No.1840080
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1840080

"Into the East" could mean a lot.