/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18398273]

> Search nothing beyond the phenomena, they themselves are the theory.
GOETHE
there is nothing "beyond" this world, no god, no concepts, nothing. if you could see the beauty inherent in nature, that "beyond" would feel useless and ornamental and "too human" to you. but you can't, /lit/.

also, general /goethe/ thread.

[Anonymous No.18398296]

>>18398273
didn't he also think that kant's writing was incredibly clear. no wonder he was in love with phenomena

[Anonymous No.18398308]

Goethe was a prosaic pedant and a symptom of and further reason for the worst impulses in the german character.
>there is nothing "beyond" this world, no god, no concepts, nothing
disproven by the existence of mathematics

[Anonymous No.18398331]

>>18398296
kant was also in love with the phenomana indeed, although he followed a different path from goethe (goethe himself said it). the ultimate goal of the KRV is proving that the vernunft remains itself only insofar it doesn't surpass the "realm" of transcendental aesthetics (=phenomena).

[Anonymous No.18398335]

>>18398308
>disproven by the existence of mathematics
this is why goethe never accepted the newtonian physics. he didn't think that the empirical phenomena can be fully reduced to mathematics.

[Anonymous No.18398336]

>>18398273
This is not what he means.

[Anonymous No.18398337]

>>18398336
this is exactly what he meant and he repeated it many times.

[Anonymous No.18398362]

>>18398308
>I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE

[Anonymous No.18398394]

>>18398337
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.18398397]

>Grau, teurer Freund, ist alle Theorie und grün des Lebens goldener Baum

[Anonymous No.18398406]

>>18398273
This is your brain on romanticism

[Anonymous No.18398441]

I want to understand why this man is held in such a high regard. What did he do thats means many consider him the greatest thinker period. I read sorrows of young werther and adored it, went looking for more, and was sad to see he doesn't have very many books.

[Anonymous No.18398459]

>>18398441
there's also Faust and Wilhelm Meister, both are great

[Anonymous No.18398495]

>>18398441
>and was sad to see he doesn't have very many books.
kek
what shit bait.
he is one of the most prolific writers in german.
He wrote a shit ton of books.

[Anonymous No.18398502]

>>18398459
I wish he wrote more short stories. I really liked werther
>>18398495
How many?

[Anonymous No.18398528]

>>18398441
> I want to understand why this man is held in such a high regard
because he is the greatest poet to ever live after homer
> read sorrows of young werther and adored it
objectively his worst work
> not many books
he didn't just write more than 80.000 pages, he wrote on so many subjects that it's impossible to read him like a single writer. something like leibniz.

[Anonymous No.18398547]

>>18398528
>because he is the greatest poet to ever live after homer
I thought Schiller was regarded higher?
>objectively his worst work
Why?
>he didn't just write more than 80.000 pages, he wrote on so many subjects that it's impossible to read him like a single writer. something like leibniz.
Wonderful. Such as?

[Anonymous No.18398574]

>>18398502
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe_bibliography
his autobiographical writings are Exactly like his prose texts so they count to his fiction pretty much.

[Anonymous No.18398607]

>>18398574
I was going to say youre cheating, but it says right there his autobiography is seems like a massive compilation of his work including his philosophical and literary creations.

[Anonymous No.18398615]

>>18398273
>he thinks that quote by Goethe is anti-God/religion/philosophy
Have you even read Goethe, or did you just google Goethe quotes?

>also quotes Nietzsche
Wow, you definitely haven't just found out about Nietzsche, and you definitely understand him.

[Anonymous No.18398656]

This is from Theory of Colours. The point is not that there is nothing beyond phenomena, but that with true richness the phenomena constitute their own world - as with a wonderful blue which forms its own light, in its own way equal to the elements present at the sea's creation.

In perfection beauty exists in harmony with the boundaries, it frees them. The object is born of the totality of the thing, yet in its end will constitute its own world.

Thus in the forest already exists our death, waiting for us, and with it our freedom. The ultimate beyond which harmonizes even where there is silence, and the great rest which forms our peace.

Über allen Gipfeln
Ist Ruh,
In allen Wipfeln
Spürest du
Kaum einen Hauch;
Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
Ruhest du auch."

(Over all mountain peaks
is rest,
in all treetops
you feel
scarcely a breath;
the little birds are silent in the forest.
Just wait, soon
you too will rest.)

This is not pantheism either, nor occasionalism. The popular understanding of Plato's theories will also lead to misinterpretation. It is stronger than this and relates to theomorphism.

[Anonymous No.18398747]

>>18398656
Jünger's writing on the forests is similar to Goethe's morphology.

"Whoever thinks of the tree must not only think of the root, he must also think of the forest. The forest is a faculty of the tree, therefore one can imagine the tree without the forest, but not the forest without the tree.
The forest, however, is not a mere multiplication, not a mere standing together of trees, but it changes the form and life of the individuals. Formed by them, it has an effect on their formation. Selection, as in the wild, becomes more acute; especially in the primeval and mixed forest, the species compete for space and light. For every thousand pollen there is one that fertilises, for every thousand germs there is one stem, and it too is threatened for a long time. In the dense fir, one sometimes comes across a young beech that, towering high, bends its crown to the ground. The image is reminiscent of a young man, a pupil who has been expected to do too much.

On the other hand, the forest also provides security. The crowns unite to form a roof which lets the rain through but protects the ground from the sun. The trunks lose their lateral branches and grow upwards in a busy manner. This has an effect on the habit. Thus, the crown of the free-standing copper beech is already formed close to the ground, while in the copper beech forest the branches only rise to the leaf canopy at a great height like the pointed arches of Gothic columns. Only the trees at the edge of the forest unfurl branches on the outside that reach down to the ground and thus, together with the hedges, form a border wall against the wind that glides over the forests like domes. Some forest islands, especially in the tropics, resemble a mighty tree themselves."

[Anonymous No.18398804]

>>18398615
goethe was "anti"-nothing, it wasn't in his character. still, he wasn't a religious person except for his pietist period which he explained as "mental illness".
> He who possesses art and science has religion; he who does not possess them, needs religion
as for christianity:
> Lots of things I can stomach. Most of what irks me I take in my stride, as a god might command me. But four things I hate more than poisons & vipers: tobacco smoke, garlic, bedbugs, and Christ.

also, i can tell the way you speak you are a retard. that was free information for you, make whatever you want out of it.

>>18398656
Dies ist die wichtigste "philosophische" Passage in der Faust.

Geschrieben steht: "Im Anfang war das Wort!"
Hier stock ich schon! Wer hilft mir weiter fort?
Ich kann das Wort so hoch unmöglich schätzen,
Ich muß es anders übersetzen,
Wenn ich vom Geiste recht erleuchtet bin.
Geschrieben steht: Im Anfang war der Sinn.
Bedenke wohl die erste Zeile,
Daß deine Feder sich nicht übereile!
Ist es der Sinn, der alles wirkt und schafft?
Es sollte stehn: Im Anfang war die Kraft!
Doch, auch indem ich dieses niederschreibe,
Schon warnt mich was, daß ich dabei nicht bleibe.
Mir hilft der Geist! Auf einmal seh ich Rat
Und schreibe getrost: Im Anfang war die Tat!

Logos:
> Wort (Offenbarung) > Sinn (Vernunft) > Kraft (Wirklichkeit) > Tat (Werden)

außerdem:
> Schelling werde ich auf den Freitag mitbringen, um bei unserer Säcular-Empirie einen tüchtigen Hinterhalt zu haben.

Könnte nicht klarer sein.

[Anonymous No.18398865]

>>18398804
>Schelling werde ich auf den Freitag mitbringen, um bei unserer Säcular-Empirie einen tüchtigen Hinterhalt zu haben.
from what is this?
I honestly cant imagine Goethe liking (early) Schelling too much.

[Anonymous No.18398889]

>>18398273
Just got started on Italian Journey since I am burnt out from nonfiction.
Already a comfy read. Pretty cool reading about how he was having a kind of midlife crisis and just decided to skip town at 3 in the morning and leave behind a pretty glamorous court life to go travelling alone.
Very based man.

[Anonymous No.18398988]

>>18398865
letter from goethe to schiller dating 12/22/1800.
goethe talked with schelling, but their principles were very different, as you can read there.

[Anonymous No.18399411]

>>18398656
The Chad Goethe Reader vs. The Virgin Wiki Browser

[Anonymous No.18399529]

>>18398804
>goethe was "anti"-nothing, it wasn't in his character. still, he wasn't a religious person except for his pietist period which he explained as "mental illness".
Do Nietzscheans really take "yes-saying" this literally?

>that was free information for you,
These are famous quotes, and you've only misunderstood them. For "Christ" he instead wrote the symbol of the cross, so more likely he disliked the image of the crucifixion, and considering how much he uses Christian imagery, and how appreciative Schiller was of Christianity, to take it as anti-Christian (inb4 muh yes-saying LARPing) would be shallow.

>Goethe wasn't a religious person
You haven't read Goethe.

[Anonymous No.18399591]

>18399529
>Do Nietzscheans really take "yes-saying" this literally?
just fuck off, faggot.
You are so cringe.

[Anonymous No.18399655]

>>18399591
>just fuck off, faggot.
>You are so cringe.
That's not very yes saying, what happened to a mere glance being the only no saying?

[Anonymous No.18399787]

>>18398337
No it isn't. Despite the quote in the OP for Goethe the phenomenal world is a mask for hidden relations and meanings between things. Phenomena are indeed all there is but he is no materialist. The archetypal phenomenon is like a mathematical axiom from which all things of a type are a manifestation. It is basically the same concept as the substance-attribute-mode metaphysics of Spinoza.

[Anonymous No.18401287]

What's the best translation of Wilhelm Meister's Travels? I'm reading Carlyle's and I like it, but there are whole dissertations out there on why it's very bad.

[Anonymous No.18401526]

>>18399787
Op absolutely btfo'd.

[Anonymous No.18401541]

>>18398656
Top quality post.

[Anonymous No.18401734]

>>18401287
Carlyle still makes academics seethe.

>I asked myself: What is this that, ever since earliest years, thou hast been fretting and fuming, and lamenting and self-tormenting, on account of? Say it in a word: is it not because thou art not HAPPY? Because the Thou (sweet gentleman) is not sufficiently honoured, nourished, soft-bedded, and lovingly cared for? Foolish soul! What Act of Legislature was there that thou shouldst be Happy? A little while ago thou hadst no right to be at all. What if thou wert born and predestined not to be Happy, but to be Unhappy! Art thou nothing other than a Vulture, then, that fliest through the Universe seeking after somewhat to eat; and shrieking dolefully because carrion enough is not given thee? Close thy Byron; open thy Goethe.
>But there is no Religion? Fool! I tell thee, there is. Hast thou well considered all that lies in this immeasurable froth-ocean we name Literature? Fragments of a genuine Church-Homiletic lie scattered there, which Time will assort: nay fractions even of a Liturgy could I point out. And knowest thou no Prophet, even in the vesture, environment, and dialect of this age? None to whom the God-like had revealed itself, through all meanest and highest forms of the Common; and by him been again prophetically revealed: in whose inspired melody, even in these rag-gathering and rag-burning days, Man’s Life again begins, were it but afar off, to be divine? Knowest thou none such? I know him, and name him—Goethe.

[Anonymous No.18403688]

>>18401734
This is some top-quality material.

[Anonymous No.18403762]

>>18398308
math doesn't exist, friend

[Anonymous No.18403787]

>>18403762
Objectively wrong.

[Anonymous No.18403802]

>>18403762
I find it funny that the people who say math doesn't exist are implicitly subscribing to a materialistic view against their will.

[Anonymous No.18403881]

>>18403787
Math is in your head only. All language really, and all ideas.
>>18403802
I dunno what materialism means.

[Anonymous No.18403931]

>>18403881
>Math is in your head only.

That would mean reality wouldn't follow mathematical rules when nobody is looking, this being absurd shows you are wrong.

[Anonymous No.18404024]

>>18398308
Anyone who has to post a woman to get people to pay attention to their shitty post is just confirming that whatever they're saying cant stand up on it's own

[Anonymous No.18404025]

Where do i start with Goethe

[Anonymous No.18404028]

>>18404025
Sorrows and Faust part 1.

[Anonymous No.18404051]

>>18404025
A Study Based on Spinoza

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18404107]

>>18404025
Chronologically

[Anonymous No.18404278]

>>18398273
>Take Goethe, who held Christ for problematical, but the good God for wholly proven, albeit retaining the liberty to discover the latter in Nature after his own fashion; which led to all manner of physical assays and experiments, whose continued pursuit was bound, in turn, to lead the present reigning human intellect to the result that there's no God whatever, but only "Force and Matter."

[Anonymous No.18404560]

>>18403931
Not him, but have you ever wondered why there isn't a number after 9 and before 10? Like why is 10 the cut off for decimal places? It's almost like math is a set of arbitrary manmade rules used to describe an otherwise indescribable phenomenon for the purpose of communication, kind of like language.

[Anonymous No.18404587]

>>18398547
Well I know Der Handschuh by heart so thats a point for Schiller

[Anonymous No.18404742]

>>18398547
>I thought Schiller was regarded higher?
No way, they're kind of equals and you can't understand one properly without the other, being opposites but mutually beneficial in every regard, one of the great constellations of history, but Goethe is still kind of considered "the all mighty genius" which even Schiller recognised in him as the naive artist.

[Anonymous No.18404772]

Going to get "The Essential Goethe" by Matthew Bell. Seems like a good collection, doesn't seem to contain his "Maxims and Reflections" though.

[Anonymous No.18404780]

What a dumb fucking thread

This board is utter shit

[Anonymous No.18404851]

>>18399787
>>18401526
nice power fantasy and pretentious buzzwords, but that's not goethe.

[Anonymous No.18404868]

>>18404851
also spinoza in proposition 16 of the 1st book of ethics made it clear that the infinite god/substance/natura naturans is bound to express itself ENTIRELY in the phenomenal universe, as well a cause needs its effect in prder to be a cause, that is, the first radical denial of transcendence in european philosophy. and this is what goethe liked about spinoza.

[Anonymous No.18405953]

>>18404780
How?

[Anonymous No.18407191]

bump

[Anonymous No.18407570]

>>18403931
Truth is a certain kind of correspondence between what's in our heads and what happens in reality. Math as a language gives us the power to express this reality up to a very precise point, but it can still express falsehoods, ficticious scenarios, etc.

[Anonymous No.18408335]

>>18398273
Isn't he a homo or something? Yeah, no thanks.

[Anonymous No.18408870]

>>18403931
Reality is in your head

[Anonymous No.18408985]

>>18398362
Goethe was the embodiment of IFLS though you absolute pseud.

[Anonymous No.18409984]

>>18404560
Filtered by lingual limitations

[Anonymous No.18410100]

>>18401734
Kek

[Anonymous No.18410118]

>>18404851