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/lit/ - Literature

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1836899 No.1836899 [Reply] [Original]

Greetings from /mu/

So, this dude must be like the ITAOTS to /lit/, right?

I mean, come on... how can you NOT spend all day talking 'bout him and his works...

>> No.1836903

Actually, no. The /lit/ equivalent to ITAOTS is The Catcher in the Rye.

>> No.1836906

That's not Thomas Pynchon or DFW

>> No.1836909

>>1836903

Kindly go back to /mu/.

You've quickly overtaken BB as the worst tripfag here.

>> No.1836915

>>1836903

He is just kidding. We do not have any parallels for that album to /lit/. Literature and the pursuit of knowledge is always beautiful

>> No.1836916

>>1836903

>ITAOTS = Obscure (to most)

>Catcher in the Rye = High school mandatory reading

>> No.1836918

>>1836915

I just meant that it is widely referenced, genuinely liked by most, but also seen as 'entry level' by the elitists, and downright bad to a small 'edgy' minority. Just like ITAOTS.

>>1836909
I knew BB was mediocre. Only a few days and I'm already usurping his position on this board.

>> No.1836921

>>1836918

Actually that makes sense.

But Catcher in the Rye is certainly not considered entry level for the most part. It might not hold the same reputation as Divine Comedy but it has outstanding merit.

>> No.1836923
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1836923

>>1836918

Ah, I see. Must be much less hipster in here.

>> No.1836924

>>1836921

Oh I agree that it isn't 'entry level' in terms of being shallow. It has comparable depth to many great works of literature that are perhaps lesser known and more wanked over by the average elitist.

What I meant was that it is 'entry level' in the sense that everyone knows about it/ many people have read it. Just as ITAOTS is genuinely a very fine album, but you won't garner any elitist points on /mu/ for mentioning you listen to it.

>> No.1836929

>>1836924

Well that is a good argument.

>>1836909

I think d4rk000kingof/mu/ is a better class of villain.

>> No.1836933

So, out of sheer curiosity, anyone know that dude's name? X3

>> No.1836934

>>1836933

Chomsky. Obviously.

>> No.1836944
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1836944

>> No.1836945
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1836945

>>1836934
Awwright :3

>> No.1836947

>People post author's picture
>They don't post his or her name
>I don't give a fuck what they look like
>OP gets smug sense of pretension from his post
>Just post his name next time, faggot.

>> No.1836952

For left-wing intellectuals, it's Zizek. Get with the times old man.

>> No.1836953

>>1836947
If you've ever read or heard anything by Chomsky, you'd know how he looks like.

>> No.1836955
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1836955

>>1836947

U ain't mad, are ya bro?

>> No.1836958

>>1836955

Alright now. There is just enough silliness in this thread to warrant dispersal. Let us not stand for it.

>> No.1836960

>>1836952

Is Zizek worth reading?
Many of my extreme left-wing friends rave about him and express scorn and derision at my lack of familiarity. I've always been somewhat skeptical because these people are predominantly Marxist vegans who have dined out on way too much post-modernism. I always get bored having philosophical debates with them, written or oral, because they can't express an idea without obscuring it in a sea of jargon. Anyway, worth a read?

>> No.1836961
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1836961

>not pretensious or smug
>just that the dudes been around for a while and most folks who know him, know him
>you rage you lose

>> No.1836962

>>1836947
>Does not know who Chomsky is

I'm amazed more than anything else.

>> No.1836964

>>1836960
I'd recommend him, but I wouldn't recommend becoming a Marxist vegan who's dined out on way too much post-modernism. In one of his interviews, he says he likes to avoid people who read his books, and I have a feeling it's because he's not keen on a lot of them. Also, he is the very reverse of being lost in a sea of jargon.

Also, don't expect a clear answer or to know what his own position is.

>> No.1836970

>>1836964

Cheers.

On the basis of this:

> he says he likes to avoid people who read his books

and

> he is the very reverse of being lost in a sea of jargon.

I am now very intrigued. Now I have something to look forward to reading after my exams.

>> No.1836979
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1836979

>spend all day talking 'bout
>Obscure (to most)
>widely referenced, genuinely liked
>bad to a small 'edgy' minority

pic related, summerfags

>> No.1836985

>>1836979
No discernible talent. Deal with it.

>> No.1836986

>>1836979
NOPE.AVI

It's not obscure at all and it sucks. Only highschoolfags who love shit like House of Leaves enjoy DFW.

>> No.1836990
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1836990

Summerfags, summerfags everywhere.

>>1836985
you're either a troll or part of that "small 'edgy' minority" who dislikes DFW

>>1836986
comparing Infinite Jest with House of Leaves proves that you have no idea what you're talking about

>> No.1836991
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1836991

>>1836986
Anon, maybe 'obscure' has a different meaning outside of your bedroom...?
<----------pic of Anon

>> No.1836999

>>1836918
>>1836918
>I knew BB was mediocre

HA
don't think so buddy.

>>1836979
>>1836979
>>1836990
>>1836990

using the terms 'summerfag' and 'new/oldfag' immediately let the rest of us know how retarded you are.

Please refrain from doing this.

>> No.1837001

>>1836999
Is it okay to say: 'shitty tripfag [enters the thread]'?
And please, stay on topic.

>> No.1837003

>>1837001
It would be true, but it's best to ignore the ugly McLovin.

>> No.1837005

>>1836986
>people who read House of Leaves like to read Infinite Jest

How do you connect the two? You're an idiot. DFW is a genius with discernable talent.

>> No.1837006

>>1836999

Using the trip "Brownbear" immediately lets the rest of us know how retarded you are.

Please refrain from doing this.

>> No.1837009
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1837009

>>1837005

As opposed to a genius WITHOUT discernible talent?

>> No.1837008

>>1836899
He's a fucking genius.
And he's always right.
If you think he is just a left wing radical, you are mistaken. I have the utmost respect for his work, and for his critique of Corporate America, Israeli - Palestinian conflict and his opinions regarding the Middle East.

>> No.1837012

>>1837006
>>1837006

Using the trip "Brownbear"
>Brownbear
>trip
ooooooookay

using the name 'd4rk000kingof/mu/' and thinking a name is a tripcode immediately lets the rest of us know how retarded you are.

Please refrain from doing this.

>>1837001
>>1837001
i'm just a filter away friend
we don't have an ITAOTS because it's a lot harder to read a book than it is to listen to an album, the time invested means that we won't have any kind of slightly obscure but mostly loved book. DFW IJ is not it because it's simply not been read by enough people, and Harold Bloom (who's opinion holds quite a bit of weight) thinks he has no discernable talent, which means many people WILL NOT read IJ.

catcher, great gatsby etc are all reading material for highschoolers in America so it's definately not going to be one of those. I think the closest we could ever get would be a short story, something everyone here could read within an hour.

But i don't think we'll ever find out suitable.

>> No.1837013

>>1837012

ooooohhh semantics.

I think /lit/ should petition the mods to filter you for us. Preferably without your knowledge - we wouldn't want to deprive you of the only thing that makes your life worth living.

>> No.1837014

>>1837008
Very true. I think Chomsky's works transcend the standard political spectrum, so calling him a lefty intellectual is technically correct but missing the point.

Great man, his critiques on Neoliberalism changed my worldview substantially @-@

>> No.1837015
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1837015

>>1837013
>>1837013
>ooooohhh semantics.
yes.
that's kind of what most arguments come down to.

why can't we just be friends?
;_;
i think we could get on well together, and you've only been here a few days so i may have made a bad impression or something idk, but please give me a chance to reconcile that
no homo

>> No.1837019

>>1837015

The general feel of the board towards you, which seems to border on loathing, makes me skeptical. Mind you, I like D&E and he seems to fuck many people off also. Therefore, I'll wipe you're slate clean as far as we're concerned. Whether or not that leads to our being friends or enemies in future is entirely up to your behavior.

>> No.1837020

>>1837014
>I think Chomsky's works transcend the standard political spectrum, so calling him a lefty intellectual is technically correct but missing the point.
>I think
>technically incorrect

>> No.1837022

I don't know what ITAOTS is to /mu/, but "Infinite Jest" is THE BOOK of this board.

>> No.1837023

>>1837019
>>1837019

that's because i used to make these threads (which you came to this board after i stopped) which were either loved or hated really. i think you'd like them though, they were short greentext stories, because this board doesn't really have a lot of greentext.

>>1837022
>>1837022
nooooooooooooooo
it really isn't
it's been read by less than 10% of the people who frequent this board, and is just discussed in the same 30 post topics by the same 15 people who loved it.

however a lot of us are reading it for summer (me too for the first time) so this might change
http://litinfinitejest.org

>> No.1837034

>>1837023
I know it's a bad idea to reason with you,
but,
in your opinion,

what is "the book" of this board?
(need a title and a motive, not a digression about how you can't name one)

>> No.1837038

>>1837034
>>1837034

it's not that i cannot name one, it's rather than we do not have one.

Books take at least one hour to read, but you're looking at 3-4 for a novella and maybe 6-7 for a longer work (IJ would be even more than this)

this is different from an album such as ITAOTS which is a mere 40 minutes long. Books are so time consuming and the tastes we all have are so vast that it isn't usually in the readers interest to invest the time in a book that does not immediately appeal to them. I can listen to Flying Lotus - Cosmogramma, even though i didn't think i'd like it, because of the short amount of time it takes to listen to it even twice or three times!

If i were to evoke a book as a mascot for this board it would be the one we discuss most. Which i think (excluding trolling Ayn Rand) is going to be either The Great Gatsby or The Catcher in the Rye. I persoanlly think it would be Catcher in the Rye because it's the most discussed i think, but still even then it isn't an ITAOTS because so many people do not like it.

There is no general consensus on the book itself and so it's not our version of ITAOTS. But i do think that would be the most appropiate book to use as a board mascot.

It may be 'entry-level' to some, 'kids lit' 'highschool tier' etc. But it's easily one of, or even THE most discussed book here.

>> No.1837036

>>1837023
I liked them.

>> No.1837037
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1837037

>>1837034
Probably something by Vonnegut. Will you homos stop jerking each other off and move along?

>> No.1837051
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1837051

>Books take at least one hour to read
I see someone still has to sound the words.

>> No.1837060

>>1837038
Catcher in the Rye is mentioned in two types of threads:
>Hey guys, I've just read it and come to ask you what's your opinion about it.
^-- not a regular visitor of /lit/, just a guy dropping by
>Recommend me a book.
^-- it's a must-read, never-fail formal recommendation

Catcher in the Rye is a book often 'mentioned' here but is not 'talked' or 'discussed' as much as Infinite Jest. Also, this: regulars of /lit/ made a forum dedicated to reading/discussing this book.

So, even if Catcher in the Rye might account for a larger number of posts, Infinite Jest is clearly the most emblematic book for this board.

>> No.1837069

>>1836960

Zizek is worth reading for light entertainment, but not for a coherent and sustained reflection on, well, anything at all really. What he does offer are occasionally interesting critiques of capitalism or philanthropy, but these are much more compelling if you hear him speak. His charisma is the reason that he's so popular rather than his deep or thoughtful writing and it's certainly not for the soundness of his ideas.

His philosophical style was described rather well by Julian Baggini, who wrote that Zizek relies too much on paradox in place of profundity. If you're familiar with the English comedian Les Dawson, you'll know that he had a routine whereby he'd play the piano very badly. Every single commentator on Les Dawson now feels compelled to say, 'To play the piano that badly, you really have to be able to play the piano very well'. That comment is essentially how Zizek writes: while most people think X is the case, it is counterintuitively true that Y is the case!

Still, entertaining to read.

>> No.1837087

>>1837069
>Les Dawson

>> No.1837093

>>1837012

For fuck's sake, do you have to derail every fucking thread you enter, you self-satisfied piece of fucking shit. I swear, if you were half as clever as you fucking think you are, you'd be four times cleverer than you are. You're a fucking cunt.

>>1837015

>that's kind of what most arguments come down to

No, actually they don't - that's what stupid undergraduate debates all come down to, as everyone starts scoring points off each other and prevents themselves from learning as much as possible. God I hate British universities these days, and fucking spastics like you are the major reason.

>>1837038

>this is different from an album such as ITAOTS which is a mere 40 minutes long. Books are so time consuming and the tastes we all have are so vast that it isn't usually in the readers interest to invest the time in a book that does not immediately appeal to them. I can listen to Flying Lotus - Cosmogramma, even though i didn't think i'd like it, because of the short amount of time it takes to listen to it even twice or three times!

I actually agree with this, even though I want to vomit as I write those words in connection to BB. It's far harder to acheive consensus on a novel, or any literature, since the individual has to invest more time and effort into it - if I don't like ITAOTS (and I don't), then I walk away and say meh. If I don't like Infinite Jest (and I don't), then I think OMFG I JUST WASTED A WEEK OF MY FUCKING LIFE ON THIS SHIT I R GO SHOUT ABOUT IT ON THE INTYWEBS FOR DAYS AND DAYS AND ANYONE WHO DOES LIEK IS IDORT.

I kind of liked Cosmogramma though - not brilliant, but not bad noodly electro.

>> No.1837095

>>1837087

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nNGlaiVypU

Indeed! And check out the comments on the YT page for confirmation of my first post.

>> No.1837098
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1837098

>>1837087

Les Dawson was a half-decent poet and writer, actually. And he played piano in a parisian brothel, and he was a boxer. He was a pretty cool guy - I've always thought it would have been interesting to meet him.

>> No.1837102

>>1837069
>>1836960

I was also going to say, in reference to your post, that the idea of a vegan Marxist is amusing given how Marx envisages his ideal society in 'The German Ideology':

For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

>> No.1837106
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1837106

I suggest, in light of all the mudslinging that has gone before, some of which I contributed, that maybe we need a poem - not a novel, it can be something that everyone on /lit/ relates to. I suggest that Philip Larkin is in fact the mascot of this board.

"Love again: wanking at ten past three
(Surely he's taken her home by now?),
The bedroom hot as a bakery,
The drink gone dead, without showing how
To meet tomorrow, and afterwards,
And the usual pain, like dysentery.

Someone else feeling her breasts and cunt,
Someone else drowned in that lash-wide stare,
And me supposed to be ignorant,
Or find it funny, or not to care,
Even ... but why put it into words?
Isolate rather this element

That spreads through other lives like a tree
And sways them on in a sort of sense
And say why it never worked for me.
Something to do with violence
A long way back, and wrong rewards,
And arrogant eternity."
— Philip Larkin

Sound familiar, c/lit/s? We should all have a wank at ten past three, local time, in honour of this great man.

>> No.1837107

>>1837098
>half-decent

>> No.1837109

he talks funny and repeats himself in every book

>> No.1837112

>>1836960
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TqyKsnQD38

>> No.1837117

>>1837109

Are we talking about Zizek, DFW, Les Dawson or Philip Larkin here? It applies to pretty much all of them.

>> No.1837124
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1837124

killing time
I straighten up
his hospice room

>> No.1837246

>>1837124

wut

>> No.1837258
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1837258

>babbys first chomsky

>> No.1837260

>>1837246
I wanted to kill the thread.

>> No.1837269

Not only is he an anti-semite, he's also a Jew.

>> No.1837273

>>1836899

no, jeff magnum actually has a cool voice

>> No.1837286

Somebody already mentioned our ITAOTS, and it's Zizek, obviously. A little obscure, but some people know his name, weird tangential points that seem ok until it throws in something bizarre or outrageous, kind of smug in how he puts things, and listening him to for more than an hour is excruciating even though you kind of like where it's going.

>> No.1837530

>>1837014

Have to say I'm surprised to hear this. I thought /lit/ was full of neoliberal Christians, or maybe I've just spent too much time on /int/...

>> No.1838102

>>1837530

Hey stormfrontfag, why don't you come here and fellate my circumcised cock? You know you fucking want it, you nazi cunt.

>> No.1838116

>>1837013
I never thought I'd say this, but I finally enjoyed reading a tripfag post that wasn't Arceuieddiueued's

>> No.1838123

this thread is a lot less irritating if you install the 4chan filter bros. just sayin'. join us.

>> No.1838131

Chomsky's linguistics work is solid. What I really take trouble with is that his personality and opinion have eclipsed his superior early work.

Now his books are largely just touchstones for high school and college students, so they can buy them, read them, say "Oh fuck, he says [something blatant and obvious] and it's so completely obviously correct!" and continue jerking each other off.

Honestly, the man is nothing special.

>> No.1838166

>>1838102

Im an Anarcho-Communist. Why would you think im a nazi?

>> No.1838175

>>1838166
Ah, I see we've an idealist in our midst.

>> No.1838183

>>1838123
But there's no trip filter for Chrome, is there?

>> No.1838185

>>1838175

It's an evolutionary process I think, things get better more humane all the time, just look at history.

>> No.1838191

>>1837008
>>1837014
>>1838131
Agreed. Chomsky has more in common with libertarians than with straight-up democrats. He's just more well-read and pragmatic than your typical gun toting, gold hoarding, god fearing tea partyer

>> No.1838195

>>1838185
Nah, the definition just shifts.

I'm all for Anarcho-Communism, by the way. I just don't think it will be implementable within my lifetime. Too many cooks in the kitchen for things to end well.

>> No.1838204

>>1838185

Yes, the evolution in human history has been from the spear to the gun to the guided missile, proving that while man is getting smarter, he is not getting any wiser.

>> No.1838205

>>1838191

I hope this is a troll.

Chomsky is an Anarcho-Syndicalist... I'm reading Chomsky on Anarchism at the minute and he completely disagrees with the Amercian idea of Libertarianism (i.e unbridled capitalism)

>> No.1838213

>>1838191

...You can't be serious. I'm just going to assume that you've never, ever read anything that Chomsky has ever written, and that you've never, ever heard him speak about anything, ever, let alone anything he's written or spoken about in the last few years, including some comments on the Tea Party.

Look, if you feel as though it's necessary to say that Chomsky doesn't have much in common with the "democrats" [sic], by which I assume you mean the Democratic Party, you really are operating on such a low level that it's not worth making the effort. Furthermore, yes, Chomsky is a libertarian; the idea that his only difference with the Tea Party movement is that he's 'pragmatic' and 'well read' is laughable. Shut the fuck up.

>> No.1838216

>>1838195

I don't think we'll see it anytime soon.

It's a shame Anarchism has such a bad name, I know lots of people who would be classed as Anarchists without knowing it. I think its interesting to look at Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War, the Anarchist area set up there in 1936 was quite successful (of course the Dictatorships, Liberal Democracies and Communists all rallied to destroy it).

>> No.1838220

>>1838205

American "libertarianism" and Chomsky's libertarian socialism are very different things. Many Americans would think that libertarian socialism was an oxymoron, but the fact is that libertarianism was originally a socialist movement, and it still has that meaning in most of the world outside of North America.

It's only in the US that that libertarian label has been perverted to mean something entirely different, much like the way "socialist" and "republican" seem to mean "fascist" and "conservative" in modern America.

>> No.1838222

>>1838205

Anarcho-syndicalism is an explicitly libertarian model inasmuch as there is no central planning body to speak of. I don't know why you think that libertarianism only refers to unbridled capitalism; there is a much richer tradition of libertarianism which speaks to freeing people from the coercive, destructive power of capitalism, and Chomsky is in that tradition.

>> No.1838224

>>1838213

Holy fuck, do you actually think Chomsky is a Libertarian? Jesus jumping Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ

>> No.1838227

>>1838222

Yeah Im aware of that, but anytime I mention it on 4chan I get Americans shouting that im retarded and that Libertarian Socialism is an oxymoron.

>> No.1838234

Sorry, I assumed you guys were dumbfuck 'Murrikans.

Yeah, in the European sense Chomsky is Libertarian, but I avoid using the word because of the confusion it can cause.

>> No.1838236

>>1838213
>>1838205
I see I am mistaken. Are we sure libertarianism must bring unbridled capitalism? What about a libertarian society without general incorporation?

>> No.1838245

>>1838236

Well, Libertarian (the US Capitalist version) is actually the real oxymoron. Since Capitalism is based on hierarchy and exploitation, and thus not Libertarian/Anarchistic

>> No.1838262

>>1838227

I'd say that "libertarian socialism" is a word that you need to be very delicate in using, since the word libertarian has been monopolized (especially in America) by a very particular philosophy which Noam Chomsky is extremely not a subscriber of. When people think of anarchism they tend to think of the left-wing variety and when people think of libertarianism they tend to think of the right-wing variety.

Language is defined by usage.

>> No.1838282

>>1838224

Yes. Why do you keep capitalising 'libertarian'? Are you trying to make a connection to the Libertarian Party? That is irrelevant.

I'm not sure that you actually listened to Chomsky in the video, so I'll sum it up for you:

Throughout all of history, in every place and in every time, libertarianism has not meant what it means today in the USA. Chomsky adopts the use of 'libertarian' in the tradition of Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, etc. who saw capitalism as a form of wage slavery. What Chomsky is 'refuting' (he doesn't refute anything, but never mind) in the video is the idea that there is some necessary connection between libertarianism and capitalism -- this is the position I pointed to in the post to which you were responding.

You are an idiot.

>> No.1838283

>>1838262

Well, the term Libertarianism has just been distorted completely, I tend not to use it, even though I'm in the UK.

>> No.1838289

>>1838282

Umm, I'm not the same guy that mentioned "democrats" or the tea party. Why would I mention them? I'm not from the US and don't know much about them. I'm fully aware of Chomskys position, I've read plenty of his books etc

Obviously some misunderstanding here, but anyway...

>> No.1838294

>>1838262
not defined, but acquire new and more diverse usages.

the boundary of reference, so to speak, when you describe language by usage context vs semantic content, is drawn in different logical spaces.