/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18359143]

I have no interest in Thelema, since I am pretty happy just sticking to Christian hermeticism, but is it worth reading Crowley’s shit out of curiosity and the aesthetics?

Yes I admit it, I have no interest in Thelema but I am shallow enough to like the aesthetics. Can some people post images of some OTO stuff for someone who just likes the aesthetics?

Though Crowley did rip-off a lot of stuff aesthetically from other things, shamelessly, like this lamen where he just added the eye of horus.

[Anonymous No.18359193]

>>18359143
>is it worth reading Crowley’s shit out of curiosity and the aesthetics?
Yeah
Meditations on the tarot was pretty good,he is funny at times (he's either filtering the plebs or he's actually retatrded,can't tell for sure)

[Anonymous No.18359201]

>>18359193
>retatrded
That's exactly what I meant

[Anonymous No.18359241]

>>18359193
>Meditations on the tarot
That’s book was not written by Crowley, unless you are talking about a different book than what I am thinking about

[Anonymous No.18359250]

>>18359143
Don’t ask Altiyan Childs

[Anonymous No.18359691]

>>18359143
>Is it worth making myself a lightning rod for demonic influence for the aesthetics?

You tell me.

[Anonymous No.18359820]

>>18359691
Just reading his shit won’t do shit, it’s not like I practice his butchered versions of the rituals.

[Anonymous No.18359924]

>>18359691
Not OP, but I want that. How do I go about attracting demons?

[Anonymous No.18359951]

>>18359924
Goetia, the lesser and greater key of Solomon. Don’t recommend it though, not worth it.

[Anonymous No.18359992]

>>18359951
Why?

[Anonymous No.18360052]

>>18359992
You’ll get backlash, or as you may put it karma, and it’s not good for your soul or sanity

[Anonymous No.18360064]

>>18360052
>>18359992
And if you really insist, it’s really recommend you work with divine and angelic forces before you work with darkness

[Anonymous No.18360433]

>>18359143
OTO is trash

A.'.A.'. was his superior contribution but even that's on the way out. At the end of the day it's just him putting a more explicit structure on the Path, and providing some tools he thought would be helpful on it, it's far from the only way to get it done

[Anonymous No.18360490]

>>18359143
Have sex

[Anonymous No.18360559]

>>18359143
>hmmm regular christianity is boring so I will pick this esoteric niche thing instead
my god...

[Anonymous No.18360594]

Thelema is 95% larp, Ars Goetia is 85% larp

The Kybalion and Hermetica aren't larp because they're just a system of applying and interpreting information. They develop a very larpy fanbase though; the works of Jung are the same way.

[Anonymous No.18360634]

>>18359143
>Christian hermeticism
So gnosticism?

[Anonymous No.18361005]

>>18360594
>Thelema is 95% larp
I know, but I still think the stuff that Crowley sprouted it would be an interesting and aesthetic read for the sake of it. Maybe I can find something that could be useful for those not interested in Thelema, one must adapt from every truth they can find.
>>18360433
The matter in this thread is mostly just about aesthetics, and isn’t A.A just personal mentor shit? Can’t really glean as much aesthetics to something like that as opposed to something centred around group magic like oto. One would think that if one were really a follower of his system, they should join both for the different benefits they bring.

Though, I am jealous that Crowley-fags have access to two very much alive evolving and organised orders with more direct lineage and with full access to the system without anything being lost to time. In a way, Crowley did succeed in making a living Thelemite succession into the Golden Dawn. The main options I am looking at for an order, is mostly Martinism, which is great and all but the theurgical Elus Coen aspect has to be revived and slowly rediscovered after being cobbled back together by one guy - which comes from the fact that the tradition dates from the 17th century. Next I have the fraternity of inner light, which is a legitimate option I am considering, which is an evolving living one order with everything intact and direct lineage to Dion Fortune (great), and is also an explicitly Christian order; but the people involved in that order seem to incorporate paganism into esoteric Christianity way too much for me to be comfortable, and one article journal of that order congratulates paganism’s presence in Glastonbury, and I am afraid of the Wiccan middle aged mums who might join and taint the order because of Dion Fortune’s influence on that stuff. It’s not exactly what I am looking for, though I don’t know the material of that order to say anything certain about it and it’s material. If I find the type of people in an order to be annoying, specifically Wiccan mums, then that’s not great to work within it with. Golden Dawn revival groups are a whole mess within of itself, but aside from the problems with the Golden Dawn system and the people involved, all of the Golden Dawn system is easily available and there is even a book on self-initiation, and all of the Orders will effectively be zombies without any evolution in the system basing everything they do off effectively one book by Isreal Regardie.

[Anonymous No.18361012]

>>18361005
Meant to post this image

[Anonymous No.18361024]

>>18360559
yea this is why mystical theology is a thing
we don't need "esotericists" and "occultists", we already have St. Teresa of Avila, St. Bonaventure, St. Hildegard, Dionysius the Areopagite etc.,

[Anonymous No.18361033]

>>18360634
Nah many of the Church Fathers liked Hermes.
St. Cyril and the Alexandrian fathers quote the Corpus Hermeticum quite favourably.
St. Albert the Great and Marsilio Ficino were also Hermetic.
None of them could at all be argued to have been gnostic.

[Anonymous No.18361044]

>>18361024
>yea this is why mystical theology is a thing
>we don't need "esotericists" and "occultists", we already have St. Teresa of Avila, St. Bonaventure, St. Hildegard, Dionysius the Areopagite etc.,
Both these things need to be utilised together, since they fulfil different esoteric purposes.

[Anonymous No.18361068]

>>18359143
http://parareligion.ch

[Anonymous No.18361117]

>>18361068
That’s exactly what Brazilian Rosicrucian gnostic Christians dress like

[Anonymous No.18361124]

>>18361117
Compare

[Anonymous No.18361133]

>>18361044
Not really.
Like what does a Dion Fortune or a Guenon have to actually offer that's worthwhile that doesn't exist in a far better and more coherent framework with the Mediaeval?
If anything, modern occultism will lead you astray, while St. Albert literally achieved the philosophers stone

[Anonymous No.18361164]

>>18361133
Communication with your Guardian Angel is a pretty massive thing that occultism offers.

[Anonymous No.18361169]

>>18361164
But as I said, these things aren’t meant to be practiced exclusively, occultism includes a lot of influence from the old mystics in the practice and meditation is a must. They are most helpful when practices together.

[Anonymous No.18361235]

>>18361005
>isn’t A.A just personal mentor shit?

No, it was initially Crowley's effort to rework the GD system from a group ritual system into a guru-chela/master-student structure. He then greatly expanded on it. The point of it is to achieve two tasks
>Knowledge & Conversation of HGA
>Crossing the Abyss
It's the same path as exists for everyone in every tradition, presented differently.

Here's a good explanation of what A.'.A.'. is aiming towards:
https://web.archive.org/web/20101006203948/http://www.thebaptistshead.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=134&Itemid=28

>The main options I am looking at for an order, is mostly Martinism, which is great and all but the theurgical Elus Coen aspect has to be revived and slowly rediscovered after being cobbled back together by one guy

You mean Ravignat? He's not the only guy but he had a go at producing rituals from what's available. Stewart Clelland's book producing some of the MSS is coming out soon but it's not exhaustive.

Review of the Ravignat book here:
https://banyan.substack.com/p/thoughts-on-the-original-high-degrees

I would say though that the EC can't be 'revived', as the lineage is dead, nor should it be. They had very interesting material, it should be reworked for the modern era where essentially wealthy monasticism isn't as much an option (nor is 15 years training). Plenty of Martinist orders around if you're looking for that, but bear in mind Martinism != Elu-Coen, they get stuck together because Ambelain did it, but they're totally separate things

>Golden Dawn revival groups are a whole mess within of itself

Yes, GD is basically dead as a tradition, there's no major benefit to joining that imo. Chic and Tabatha seem to have performed necromancy on it with Regardie but it hasn't produced anything good.

>Inner Light

Don't know much about them other than Fortune's involvement

The point should be to get to the end goal, find a group or teacher that can get you there. Doing it yourself is a quick way to fall into prelest imo but doesn't mean you can't start on your own and get a teacher along the way

[Anonymous No.18361257]

>>18361235
Oh wait you mean Ambelain rather than Ravignat

Ambelain did his best but ultimately only had a fraction of the material so he filled in the gaps with a lot of irrelevant stuff. Qabalah never appears in the EC system, for example.

We're in a much better place to put it back together now, but given that it was so ephemeral as an order and is (now) so at odds with realistic ways to live (in the same way people can't do Abramelin properly as they need to work), I'm not sure how much value there is in just reproducing it. Better to take the material and rework it imo.

[Anonymous No.18361380]

>>18361235
>>18361257
On the subject on Martinism, do you think I should end up going with this order considering all you said (https://martinism.net/)? Do you think there is another order which is preferable?

[Anonymous No.18361429]

>>18361380
They seem to have a lot of material and resources so they're worth reaching out to at least. They wrote a (scathing) review of the previous Clelland edition of the Algier MSS because of all the stuff he left out:

https://www.academia.edu/43937505/A_Review_of_the_Hellfire_Club_Books_publication_A_Treasury_of_Co%C3%ABns_Texts_

Which suggests they at least have access to the original texts

Contact them and see, get more info on their system and what they aim for candidates to achieve (HGA? Abyss? Elu-Coen should lead to HGA before Reaux-Croix). You also want to feel them out to see if they are
>larpers
>weirdos
>scammers

I don't know much about Martinist orders so you'll have to shop around. If you're a Mason you have the Rectified Scottish Rite and the Hermetic Order of Martinists so there's that as well. RSR is the closest there is to a legit Elu-Coen lineage, their Profes grades used to be EC teaching and Ravignat recommends their lower grades in place of the EC lower grades that he couldn't reconstruct

[Anonymous No.18361570]

>>18361429
>Rectified Scottish Rite
I heard that's a rite that's really hard to get into, I am not a mason yet either though I am planning to become one

[Anonymous No.18361572]

EAT DA POO POO

[Anonymous No.18361582]

Somebody give me a QRD on Opis Dei. Why do the Jesuits hate them so much?

[Anonymous No.18361589]

>>18361582
>Opis
I'm retarded.

[Anonymous No.18361590]

>>18361570
I also don't think they actually do the Profes grade anymore but you could ask them I guess

>really hard to get into

The masons are more stuck for members than ever so I think you'll manage

[Anonymous No.18361593]

>>18361235
All this decor and rituals for purely psychological states attainable directly by meditation
As soon as you are asked for an objective magic you stutter

[Anonymous No.18361604]

>>18361590
says they do in the case of the united lodge of England, it's going to take a while before I get there though, so I think possibly joining OMS in the meanwhile is a good idea

[Anonymous No.18361609]

>>18359143
Nay. Smoke the hookah at the Guenon pub.

[Anonymous No.18361617]

>>18361429
>You also want to feel them out to see if they are
>>larpers
Why do you say that when all modern esotericism is one big LARP? Even in the A.'.A.'. and elsewhere, it's been a long time since all the rituals and magic are seen as psychological tools for personal development, it's just superfluous around the states that meditation allows to reach, all pretensions to an objective magic that would act directly on the world have been abandoned

[Anonymous No.18361629]

>>18361617
nobody tell him about Enochian

[Anonymous No.18361659]

>>18361629
>>>/x/28731771

[Anonymous No.18361663]

>>18361604
Well inquire and see what they actually mean when they say they do Profes in that case - I think the EC teaching they included was mostly oral.

At worst you'll be initiated, possibly given the necessary words, hieroglyphs etc to work on the EC material on your own anyway. All the MSS are available (more complete in French) so in theory you could cobble together something that works, but you'd need a good bit of experience to make it work.

It'd be nice to see some operative magicians enter the RSR, take the initiations, then make a Reaux-Croix appendant body teaching the operative EC material, only open to Profes initiates or something

[Anonymous No.18361675]

>>18361663
>It'd be nice to see some operative magicians enter the RSR, take the initiations, then make a Reaux-Croix appendant body teaching the operative EC material, only open to Profes initiates or something
huh, maybe I'll be able to achieve this in the years time it takes me to get there.

[Anonymous No.18361735]

>>18361675
Well if you do, contact Stewart Clelland any anyone else involved in that Treasury of Elu-Coen texts. They seem to be in RSR (I think) and know about EC stuff but I don't think they actually practice magic, they just view it as an obscure manuscript tradition. Someone like that might be up for doing it I'd bet, or know people who would

[Anonymous No.18361747]

>>18361735
thanks

[Anonymous No.18361816]

>>18359143
https://iao131.com/2013/03/24/thelemic-mysticism-part-2-mysticism-in-theory/

[Anonymous No.18361975]

>>18361235
>Here's a good explanation of what A.'.A.'. is aiming towards:
>https://web.archive.org/web/20101006203948/http://www.thebaptistshead.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=134&Itemid=28
Ah, the S.S. isn't exclusive to Thelemites or students of Crowley, so does practicing Elus Coen or any other sound material could lead someone to membership within the S.S.?

[Anonymous No.18362006]

>>18361975
Yeah it stands outside any system. The temporal A.'.A.'. has its own methods, literature, structure etc but in practice the S.'.S.'. that it actually aims towards can be accomlished by other means.

Crowley was trying to create a framework for attainment, but the point was that there are other ways of doing it too. So in the A.'.A.'. they make you read a lot of different books on attainment systems (Christian mysticism, daoism, yoga etc), partly to dissuade you of the idea that there's only one way of doing things

The experiences of different grades have parallels in other traditions, for example the 1=10 Vision of the HGA is equated with Samadhi in eastern traditions.

With regards to EC specifically, Pasqually's system gets you to the equivalent of K&C (5=6 task) in the A.'.A.'. system, after which you take the Reaux-Croix degree, which is a sort of spiritual priesthood/knighthood.

The idea in A.'.A.'. is that your teacher stands in for your HGA until you've got Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA, then the HGA teaches you from there. This is implied in the EC system but nothing beyond Reaux-Croix is really mapped out. What Chapman is saying in that article is that once you get HGA, you're basically drawn intractably towards Task 2 (crossing the abyss) regardless

[Anonymous No.18362030]

>>18362006
Ok, thanks

[Anonymous No.18362065]

>>18361164
Absolutely do not need occultism for that lmao
Furthest from Mediaeval mysticism id need to maybe go is Iamblichus lmao
>>18361169
Meditation? yea St. Teresa of Avila and Dionysius the Areopagite probably can't be topped in this category

[Anonymous No.18362253]

>>18362065
different guy here

>Absolutely do not need occultism for that lmao

That does not mean what you think it does. It's not just praying to it, it's a specific spiritual experience roughly equivalent to Infused Contemplation in Catholicism, so an advanced spiritual state.

Crowley picked Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel as the term to describe it partly because that's how Abramelin describes it, but also as a pseud filter (literally) for people who thought it didn't sound mystical or lofty enough. HGA is roughly equivalent to the Higher Self or Augoeides.

Technically no, you do not need to involve yourself in the modern occult to achieve this, Catholicism has methods for achieving this state, but you essentially need to be a monk or ascetic to get it done using that method. It can be done though, of course.

>Iamblichus

Was a theurgist, which is essentially what the modern occult tradition is. If you want do progress via Neoplatonic Theurgy then go for it but without a teacher who has progressed along that path before you are going to fall into prelest

>Meditation? yea St. Teresa of Avila and Dionysius the Areopagite probably can't be topped in this category

Dionysius does not teach Christian meditation (i.e. discursive meditation or inner prayer) that I am aware of. Teresa is a good (and orthodox) source on it though.

Miguel de Molinos is a very in-depth source on the subject but is nominally heterodox (though the condemnations apply to his private teachings, not The Spiritual Guide which was enthusiastically received at the time)

Thomas Keating is probably the best modern proponent of interior prayer, he's a good place to start, though it's worth reading Benedict's veiled critique of his stuff to get clarity on potential theological errors you could fall into (not that Keating is heterodox, it's just that what he's teaching can lead people to jump to false conclusions without proper theological formation. This is kind of what happened with Molinos too)

Again, get a teacher. Read up on prelest to see how easy it is to fall into delusion or error without an objective third party auditing your experiences

[Anonymous No.18364206]

>>18359143
Allowing yourself to be materially oriented is Satanic. God sees what's in a person, not appearances. The same principle applies to essentially everything. Also everything Crowley is literally homosexual ritual and Satanic.

[Anonymous No.18365077]

>>18364206
God, just reading doesn't mean anything

[Anonymous No.18365114]

>>18360064
Any works to get into the Right Hand path?

[Anonymous No.18365438]

>>18365114
https://mega.nz/folder/jlEwhYyJ#iK4mVC4y5iwk_cr3eIpX4g
beginners section you will find Israel Regardie's tree of life and the corpus hermeticum, recommend you begin with those and then move on to Regardie's middle pillar. If you are interested in the GD system, read his Golden Dawn book
https://www.bmosite.org/reading-martinism
Dion Fortune’s The Mystical Qabalah, The Cosmic Doctrine, Practical Occultism in Daily Life, Sane Occultism, Esoteric Orders and Their Work, and The Training and Work of an Initiate.

[Anonymous No.18365488]

>>18365438
Thank you very much friend.