/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18342345]

Just finished the Fagles translation of the Iliad, anyone care to discuss? I loved it for the most part although books 11-15 dragged a little for me. Everyone says Hector is this awesome dude but after book 7 he seemed like a faggot to me, the amount of times he'd run away and leave his men or when he stabbed Patroclus in the back after he'd already been cucked by Apollo and wounded by someone else then bragged about it like he killed him in one on one combat, sure he was better than most of the Acheans but no-one pretends they are morally great people.

Anyway that aside, I found the relationship between Thetis and Achilles really touching, I felt bad for her since she knew he would die soon and spend the rest of his time in the world of the living miserable

[Anonymous No.18342483]

>>18342345
>Hector was a faggot
Hector was an absolute monster of a man doing the best he could in an impossible situation. He never forsook his dumbfuck brother, only scolded him. He had a wife and child and his interaction before leaving, knowing he might die, is still one of the most touching things I've read. This man didn't rely at all on the divine, only what he could do, going so far to scold a prophet.
>Bird signs! Protect your country - that is the only omen one needs
All his work, all his love for country and fellow man gone with Troy's burning. all future hope for his offspring gone when odysseus throws his newborn off the walls
His tragedy is that through no fault of his own, he watched thousands of his men die, die himself to a force he could not equal, and have the women and children of Troy sold into slavery.
Thetis was a hot mommy, I enjoyed those parts too

[Anonymous No.18342501]

>>18342483
This. Hector was a mortal man, up against the demigod Achilles. He was outgunned by fate, but met his duty head on and acted as honorably and decisively as was possible. Definitely admirable.

[Anonymous No.18342507]

>>18342345
Was surprised how much of a dick Odysseus is, he seems like a proper cunt for some reason. But I guess it makes sense and he gets his reward in the Odyssey.

[Anonymous No.18342514]

>>18342507
>odysseus was a dick
How so?

[Anonymous No.18342522]

One of my favorite passages

[Anonymous No.18342526]

>>18342514
I think I thought so because all the children's versions of the Illiad and the Odyssey just make him out to be this witty nice guy, so it came as a shock. Also in all the Greek plays (specifically Ajax and Philoctetes) he just comes off as a cynical manipulative cunt, but I guess he is for the sake of victory

[Anonymous No.18342552]

>>18342483
Indeed, Hector was unfathomably brave. He brought out the best man had to offer - unwavering and brutally shrewd. What I also enjoyed his Hector the family man. The affectionate and thoughtful moments with his wife and child really made me tear up, at moments...

[Anonymous No.18342556]

>>18342552
I don't think he was brave, he ran, alot. He abandoned his men so he didn't have to face Ajax again

[Anonymous No.18342558]

is fagles the way to go for the iliad, bros?

[Anonymous No.18342588]

>>18342558
From the research I found his is the most accurate/faithful of the ones that are easier to read

[Anonymous No.18342621]

>>18342556
There is a difference in being brave and being stupid.
Morale is finnicky, and despite the focus on the leaders, its won by the men. A wounded but alive leader is better than a dead one. A dead leader means a dead fighting spirit for the men. That's just what happens in war. Soldiers look to their leaders as gods in times of great stress.
Its not cowardice, but practical decision making. When Hector had to fight, he did fight, like in the duel, and when he stormed the ships.

[Anonymous No.18342748]

>>18342558
Yeah, don't listen to the fags on this board

[Anonymous No.18342851]

[Anonymous No.18342891]

>>18342558
Absolutely

[Anonymous No.18342930]

fagles is good except for all the parts where hector's helmet is "flashing".

[Anonymous No.18343068]

I finished Iliad a little while ago.
I loved the night operations chapter where Diomedes and Odysseus sneak around at night. Patroclus was also a brilliant fighter but based Hector tore him to shreds. Achilles's human-ness was quite touching, even as such a physically strong character - essentially a super-man, emotionally and physically speaking.
Some of the combat scenes in my edition were extremely detailed and gruesome and a pleasure to read.
The snap backs to the citizens of Troy and their panic as Hector was killed and even throughout the poem were illuminating and showed that the humanity and brutality of war resonates all the way home as friends and family wait in terror for their loved ones to return.
Favourite character is by far Diomedes, though. The guy literally injured a God.

[Anonymous No.18343086]

>>18343068
diomedes fights the god is the most badass chapter in literature

[Anonymous No.18343089]

>>18342345
>Watch Fast and Furious
>laught at how they talk to each other driving cars in the midst of a combat
>read The Iliad
>they just talk in the battle after every blow
So is Avengers movie Americas Iliad?

[Anonymous No.18343109]

>>18342588
which ones are harder to read?

[Anonymous No.18343290]

>>18342930
SHINING
FLASHING

[Anonymous No.18343298]

>>18343068
>based hector tore him to shreds
literally stabbed him in the back while he was being fucked with by apollo and already had a stab wound

[Anonymous No.18343305]

>>18343109
Pope

[Anonymous No.18343487]

>>18342345
Hector's "brag" is different from the others. He curses Achilles for sending Patroclus to die. Moreover Patroclus denies his sole glory with "you are only my third slayer" [paraphrasing]

[Anonymous No.18343526]

>>18343487
yeah. the point is that hector usually has his wits about him because his entire motive for fighting is preserving the life of the city; he is triumphal even after a group-kill on patroclus because they're right at the city gates, which is reflected in the first thing he says - "I bet you were expecting to take the city and seize the women, but you didn't account for me defending them". he thinks to deny patroclus troy before exalting himself.

[Anonymous No.18343643]

>>18343089
>they just talk in the battle after every blow
Great, now I cant get Paul Walker as Hector saying, "Dude, I almost had you!" to Achilles.

[Anonymous No.18343730]

Do you think the original version of iliad was more steamy with gay sex? And just homer redacted it later on

[Anonymous No.18343756]

>>18342345
God you faggot never fail to get filtered by every book you read

[Anonymous No.18343783]

I thought it was funny how all these heroes would risk their lives to loot their enemy's armor in the middle of fighting. Reminds me of this one friend I play PUBG with who always starts looting the kills while the fight is still going.

[Anonymous No.18343789]

>>18343756
everyone else is having a nice conversation

[Anonymous No.18344054]

I have the Iliad and the Odyssey is Virgils Aenid worth reading?

[Anonymous No.18344097]

>>18344054
Yeah. But I find that while Homer's good in most of the extant translations, Virgil comes out poorly without a translation poetically meritorious in itself. Would suggest Dryden.

[Anonymous No.18344642]

>>18342345
My favorite part of the Iliad is during the games in honor of Patroklos, when Odysseus says a prayer to Athena so that he can beat Aias in the race. Aias then slips in cow dung near the grounds where cattle had been slaughtered and "his mouth and nose were filled with the cow dung, so that Odysseus the great and much enduring took off the mixing-bowl, seeing he had passed him and come in first".

During what seems like an award ceremony, Aias gave a speech, still covered in cow dung: "Ah, now! That goddess made me slip on my feet, who has always stood over Odysseus like a mother, and taken good care of him." He spoke, and all the rest of them laughed happily at him.

You can just imagine a shit covered Aias cracking jokes about how lucky Odysseus always gets what he wants from the Gods. I was laughing out loud when I read this chapter.
>>18344054
>>18344097

I'm on book 10/12 of Dryden's Aeneid. I listen to classical literature audibooks so that I can keep up with classical /lit/ while I'm on the go. The Librivox recording of the Aeneid has some good narrators:
https://archive.org/details/aeneid_0810_librivox1/aeneid_01_vergil.mp3


The Aeneid is interesting, it geographically jumps around much more than the Iliad so it's a little harder to keep track of without using reference materials. I'm fairly well versed in the classical world but I have a hard time keeping track of where things are in the story at times. I will probably revisit another translation later and listen more carefully.

The chapter on Queen Dido really struck me as literary genius. The Aeneid reads much more mythology than the Iliad IMO. I feel like it's very likely that the Iliad is a compilation of various oral histories into a poetic form. I think the Aeneid is probably similar, but I think the distance between the Author and the events is much greater than the distance between Homer and the Siege of Troy. So naturally, the Aeneid seems much more like "storytelling" than the Iliad which feels like it could be at least semi-historical with poetic frills attached.

Good material, should be required reading for public schools.

[Anonymous No.18344731]

why the fuck did Achilles ghost demand Polyxena be sacrificed on his tomb? It seems extremely out of character, was it just fanfiction by Euripedes? I've enjoyed his other works

[Anonymous No.18345743]

bump

[Anonymous No.18345750]

>>18342345
I read it for the sake of understanding the myriad references to it in other works. Good enough for those purposes, but honestly I didnt find it to be a very good story or worth reading on its own. Sorry classicsbros.

[Anonymous No.18345941]

GREAT ACHILLES
MIGHTY ACHILLES
BRILLIANT ACHILLES

[Anonymous No.18346054]

What was everyone's favourite book? I think mind was the Shield of Achilles, book 18

[Anonymous No.18346076]

>>18342483
This. Hector was the hero, all be it a tragic one, of the book. Human, father, husband, brother and went down fighting a demigod.

[Anonymous No.18346092]

>>18346054
Hector seeing his family for the last time immediately before his duel with ajax

[Anonymous No.18346093]

>>18345941
Two thirds of the book a bitch, Achilles.

[Anonymous No.18346124]

>>18346093
t. agamemenon

[Anonymous No.18346137]

>>18346124
Did Homer write it for us to feel sorry for the Trojans because I thought most of the Greeks were dicks.

[Anonymous No.18346172]

>>18346137
Some say that it is an anti-war polemic. It shows the tragic loss of war, and how at the end of it nobody really wins. The story climaxes with Achilles allowing Priam to take Hector's body to be buried according to civilized rites. This act shatters the dialectic of friend/foe, and paints a very humanistic and international portrait.

It also shows that even people like Hector who fulfill their duty can be unfairly struck down by the Gods, while disloyal and egotistical soldiers like Achilles can get drunk on the beach while his countrymen die to the enemy, then come in at the last moment to take the victory and all the glory for himself.

The Illiad is definitely a cautionary tale about the damages that can be incurred through war, and the generally unpredictable nature of the Gods during wartime.

[Anonymous No.18346183]

>>18346172
Very Good points.

[Anonymous No.18346287]

>>18346172
>>18346183

Also worth noting that Homer was likely writing during the Greek Dark Ages. Many classical authors write about this period as an age of piracy and lawlessness. If Homer lived during this time, he likely bore witness to plundered city-states and all of the evils that come from war. The pirates of that age would have devastated local economies, likely living in their ships going from city to city, invading any poorly defended population centers all the while raping and pillaging, until they moved onto their next target and repeated the cycle. This accounts for much of the lack of literature regarding this period, everything was subject to plunder and destruction.

The general instability of this time may have been part of Homer's inspiration for the Iliad. The final virtue of the story is that it is important to be decent and humane, even during wartime against your enemies.

[Anonymous No.18346551]

one of my favorite passages:

Now with the squadrons marshaled, captains leading each,
the Trojans came with cries and the din of war like wildfowl
when the long hoarse cries of cranes sweep on against the sky
and the great formations flee from winter's grim ungodly storms,
flying in force, shrieking south to the Ocean gulfs, speeding
blood and death to the Pygmy warriors, launching at daybreak
savage battle down upon their heads. But Achaea's armies
came on strong in silence, breathing combat-fury,
hearts ablaze to defend each other to the death.

[Anonymous No.18347122]

>>18343298
Oh, for sure. I just loved how in your face he was after, wearing the armour and being an overall cocky bastard.

[Anonymous No.18347475]

>>18342558
Butler

[Anonymous No.18347492]

>>18346137
>Did Homer write it for us to feel sorry for the Trojans because I thought most of the Greeks were dicks.
>>18346172
>Some say that it is an anti-war polemic. It shows the tragic loss of war, and how at the end of it nobody really wins. The story climaxes with Achilles allowing Priam to take Hector's body to be buried according to civilized rites. This act shatters the dialectic of friend/foe, and paints a very humanistic and international portrait.

Science of Mythology.; Essay's
>By Carl Jung & Karl Kerenyi

The Paradox of the Mythological Idea, pg. 145
>(The Gods) They can be best understood as Eternal Forms, the greaat World-Realities.
>The cause of the mightiness of these figures lies in their truths.
>As psychologists we may stress the fact that this truth. as indeed all truths, changes with time...
>the formula...catches a clear picture of the balance of Cosmic Forces.;...through a Border-Situation and presents it to the Minds as though the least disturbance of that balance would bring about a universal collapse.
>Apollo: Sublime Clarity // Darkness of Death; face one another.
>Dionysious; Life // Death
>Zeuz; Might // Right

>In relation to the Cosmos as a whole, these divinities are aspects of it; in themselves they are Wholes; "Worlds" which have aspects in their turn and constradictory aspects for the very reason that their structure combines contradictions in perfect equilibrium.
>Artemis : Wilderness - Terrors of Birth // Motherhood - Maidenhood ; Joie de Vivre // Lust for Murder; Fecund // Animality

>It is a Paradox; the revelation that is dark in comparison with the idea, but ideal in comparison with blind feeling - the revelation of something still unopened, like a bud.
>All Mythological ideas are buds of this sort; above all: the idea of Generis and Origin - an idea which every living thing experiences in its own genesis and to that extenet, realizes in Fact.

[Anonymous No.18347575]

>>18346287
Any book recommendations about this time period? Sounds interesting.

[Anonymous No.18347601]

Really didn't appreciate all the needless gratuitous violence. Some of it was just way too graphic and it really wasn't necessary. It just seemed like Homer was too lazy to articulate the brutality of war so he resorted to lazy graphic fight scenes.

[Anonymous No.18347602]

>>18346287
>Homer
>writing

[Anonymous No.18347698]

>>18347601
>way too graphic
>not brutal enough
Make up your mind faggot.

[Anonymous No.18347982]

>>18347575
Really no literature about it, just brief anecdotes. Read up on the Bronze Age Collapse if you're interested. Very likely that whatever caused the Bronze Age Collapsed triggered the Greek Dark Ages as well.

>>18347602
Right, more accurate to say composing. It was recited before it was written down.

[Anonymous No.18348151]

>>18347982
Ty

[Anonymous No.18348805]

achilles

[Anonymous No.18349768]

Our class in private school read this, should I revisit it now as a 25 year old man? Feel like 16 yo me didn’t grasp it fully. We read the fagle

[Anonymous No.18350295]

>>18342345
>calls Hector a faggot
>finds Achilles and thetis touching
If ever there was a high school tier take this would be it

[Anonymous No.18350805]

>>18350295
thinking hector is the main hero is the biggest high school take there is

[Anonymous No.18350823]

>>18350805
I mean it's literally how I read it in high school

[Anonymous No.18350954]

>>18349768
I've heard that the Lattimore version is better, but I've never read Fagle. Charlton Griffin has a very good recording of the Lattimore's Iliad available on audible.

[Anonymous No.18351495]

>>18350954
>I've heard that the Lattimore version is better
I've actually heard its worse

[Anonymous No.18352119]

>>18342483
>>18342501

Don't forget that Hector broke. Even the 'best of man' ran from his fate in the end.

[Anonymous No.18352245]

>>18343089
Watch Heat next. Iliad and Odyssey tropes are fucking everywhere.

[Anonymous No.18352261]

>>18342507
I'm only on book 5. What does he do to end up being a dick? So far he has shown himself to be the most competent leader who is also able to stand up to Agammemnom's autism without breaking down and begging mom to kill all his own soldiers.

[Anonymous No.18352465]

>>18352261
not him but nothing that I can recall in the Iliad itself

[Anonymous No.18352474]

>>18352261
to be fair Achilles would have just killed him if it wasn't for Athena

[Anonymous No.18352552]

>>18352474
B...b...based