/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18284981]

Why do people call Calvinism crypto-muslim?

[Anonymous No.18285046]

>>18284981
>Both iconoclastic
>Both teach predestination
That's about it.

[Anonymous No.18285098]

>>18284981
I've never heard that particular claim, but, there is overlap between the two:
>absolute simplicity in God
>sola scriptura (with the exception of Islamic hadiths, but the same conundrum applies to hadiths - disputed canonicity, disputed interpretations)
>>18285046
this guy is also right
but idk about Islam teaching predestination, never heard that before, maybe some schools of Islam do but idk

[Anonymous No.18285146]

>>18285098
I was being slightly simplistic, the divisions and debates about predestination (Qadar) are varied, and much Sunni thought may be considered slightly compatibilist, and Shia thought even more so - but it's broadly more like what Christians consider predestination than not

[Anonymous No.18286208]

>>18284981

Islam is more Christian than Catholicism.

[Anonymous No.18286211]

>>18286208
Imagine being this brainlet.

Anon, Protestants aren't Christian. (Christ's Church is what they are "protesting" in the first place.)

[Anonymous No.18286213]

you can't believe in an omnipotent deity and not be a determinist
it's philosophically impossible

[Anonymous No.18286214]

One of the major schools of Islam argues thar there is no free will and that everything happens by Allah's will, hence they affirm a form of Double Predestination. Aka both are crypto-Gnosticism.

[Anonymous No.18286221]

>>18286213
How ironic that it was philosophically solved 1500 years ago, and by Plato 2500 years ago.

[Anonymous No.18286228]

>>18286211
The only true Christians are militant terrorist "anabaptists." Calvinists are as satanically imperial as the catholics or orthodox.

[Anonymous No.18286235]

>>18286221
Cope, christcuck.

[Anonymous No.18286239]

>>18286221
Imagine actually believing this. How was it solved those two times?

[Anonymous No.18286318]

>>18286214

The true free will extends "backward", irrespective of extending "forward", and does not mix with the world, irrespective of being able to do so. Free will being given to Man so that he might affect the world in the vulgar Catholic sense would be tremendously insulting to both God and Man in that Man being given "free will" after the fact, after being created in this way and not in that and, indeed, after being created at all is an absurd abomination: implicitly burdening the "free will" with that which it did not will, both in content and in form, mere predestination is both more just and more dignifying. Similarly, freedom of will and freedom of action being one and the same, as Catholics maintain they are in the "ideal" state of their world, would make the freedom of such a will Epistemologically indistinguishable from a will totally subordinate to an autonomous Phenomenal, mere predestination is both more just and more dignifying. Moreover, I maintain that "mere" predestination is actually THE true will itself: a will so free that it has implicitly chosen and concluded everything, implicitly unburdened and unburdening itself even of what itself wanted to choose, before one is even "created", let alone born, so that one is then not ironically free but truly free, even from choice, to passively observe the technicality of one's Phenomenal life excreting itself away.

Previously, in a strictly Protestant sense:

>>>/lit/?task=search&ghost=yes&search_text=%22lest+he+defiles+it%22
>The idea that free will precedes one's birth, that one precedes one's birth, is at least implicit if not explicit in most of Christianity, excluding Catholicism, which is not Christian at all. The Protestant obsession with determinism goes far enough to Dialectically reach absolute free will, i.e. life is so determined that even one's (ostensible) experience of determinism could be Epistemologically indistinguishable from one's false experience of free will relative to God's true determinism, that God actually determined this when one thinks he determined that, his determinism ever imploding lest the determined defiles it by knowing, its Epistemological retreat indistinguishable from an Ontological one, lest he defiles it by being.

[Anonymous No.18286322]

>>18284981
Because people are ignorant.

[Anonymous No.18286353]

The true free will extends "backward", irrespective of extending "forward", and does not mix with the world, irrespective of being able to do so. Free will being given to Man so that he might affect the world in the vulgar Catholic sense would be tremendously insulting to both God and Man in that Man being given "free will" after the fact, after being created in this way and not in that and, indeed, after being created at all is an absurd abomination: implicitly burdening the "free will" with that which it did not will, both in content and in form, mere predestination is both more just and more dignifying. Similarly, freedom of will and freedom of action being one and the same, as Catholics maintain they are in the "ideal" state of their world, would make the freedom of such a will Epistemologically indistinguishable from a will totally subordinate to an autonomous Phenomenal, mere predestination is both more just and more dignifying. Moreover, I maintain that "mere" predestination is actually THE true will itself: a will so free that it has implicitly chosen and concluded everything, implicitly unburdened and unburdening itself even of what itself wanted to choose, before one is even "created", let alone born, so that one is then not ironically free but truly free, even from choice, to passively observe the technicality of one's Phenomenal life excreting itself away.

Previously, in a strictly Protestant sense:

>>>/lit/thread/S17731637#p17735398
>The idea that free will precedes one's birth, that one precedes one's birth, is at least implicit if not explicit in most of Christianity, excluding Catholicism, which is not Christian at all. The Protestant obsession with determinism goes far enough to Dialectically reach absolute free will, i.e. life is so determined that even one's (ostensible) experience of determinism could be Epistemologically indistinguishable from one's false experience of free will relative to God's true determinism, that God actually determined this when one thinks he determined that, his determinism ever imploding lest the determined defiles it by knowing, its Epistemological retreat indistinguishable from an Ontological one, lest he defiles it by being.

[Anonymous No.18286380]

>>18286213
This. Calvinism is the most consistent form if Christianity.

[Anonymous No.18286469]

>>18286214
Double predestination does not mean a complete lack of choice or a totally deterministic universe. It has more to do with the concept of total depravity and the absolute necessity of the holy spirit's presence in any holy act, in other words man cannot freely choose to be holy of their own will. Calvin believed that man had free will.

[Anonymous No.18286490]

>>18286213
Determinism is actually contrary to God's omnipotence, try again redditor.

[Anonymous No.18286498]

>>18286213
>what is free will
and no God's foreknowledge does not preclude the possibility of free will
knowing what people are going to choose with their free will, is not the same as infringing upon their free will
assuming that God would be biased and abusive in such a manner because a human would be, is a form of anthropomorphizing God

[Anonymous No.18286605]

>>18286469
Which of course is contrary to what sane Christian denominations think. That we do not have free will without the holy spirit since nature without it is ruled by determinism. But through personal and existential experience with the divine in baptism and confirmation and the sacred liturgy we by tasting immortality can transcend the deterministic confines of nature and will a synergy between our wills and that of the Father, which is theosis.

[Anonymous No.18286832]

>>18286239
>>18286214
>>18286235
Christcuckery (Orthodoxy and Catholicism) is just double predestination with extra steps.
Plato, Iamblichus, Proclus, and Damascius' theory if the changing self/soul.
>>18286469
No but it does in Islam, they claim that there isn't even cause and effect but that Allah causes ALL movement, since he is sole cause of LITERALLY 100% everything. According to that school which is the dominant view of the "Ummah". I'm not Muslim.

[Anonymous No.18286853]

>>18286490
Retard

>>18286498
Yes it does, idiot

>>18286605
>sane
All christcucks believe God is a wafer. That’s the opposite of sane.

[Anonymous No.18286854]

Europeans have always believed that Islam teaches a doctrine of fatalism.

[Anonymous No.18286956]

>>18286853
>Retard
>Yes it does, idiot
>muh appeal to personal incredulity
Gentleman, we are dealing with a world-class intellect here.

[Anonymous No.18286969]

>>18286956
Keep coping christshit, maybe one day you'll transcend immortality or whatever vomit you believe.

[Anonymous No.18286999]

>>18286969
>I don't even know what you believe, but I'm certain that it's wrong, whatever it is
world class intellect

[Anonymous No.18287011]

>>18286213
>>18286853
>>18286969
You seem really angry and lost anon. I will pray to God for you so you find your way

[Anonymous No.18287035]

>>18286999
If you're not muslim you're wrong
Simple as :^)

>>18287011
Already did, thanks

[Anonymous No.18287053]

>>18286969
Seethe, cope, etc., et al.

[Anonymous No.18287068]

>>18287053
No need you already do that for me

[Anonymous No.18287074]

>>18284981
Both are shit cults.

[Anonymous No.18287092]

>>18287074
There is a word for it: orientalism.

[Anonymous No.18287104]

>>18286228
>revealed religion
>true
LOL

[Anonymous No.18287113]

>>18286228
>revealed religion
>orthodox
LOL

[Anonymous No.18287121]

>>18284981
I’ve never heard anyone say this.

[Anonymous No.18287122]

>>18287092
What do the Chinese have to do with this?

[Anonymous No.18287123]

>>18287104
If the idea of divine revelation is a joke, then what axiom do you ground your worldview in? What is your ultimate reference point?

[Anonymous No.18287139]

>>18287122
Go drink your camel piss you stinky carpet dealer.

[Anonymous No.18287146]

>>18287123
>divine
>revelation
Pick one, retard.

[Anonymous No.18287615]

>>18286353

Reply, cowards.

[Anonymous No.18287676]

>>18284981
>>18285046
>>18285098
The Problem here is that Catholics also teach predestination. What makes Calvinism distinct is the doctrine of double predestination. The only real difference is that in most varieties of Christianity, God only predestines some people to eternal life. In Calvinism, God has also predestined people to damnation as well.

But the problem here is not a question of God's sovereignty; everyone agrees that God is capable of foreknowledge. The reason why the Calvinistic version of double predestination is loathed by many a theologian is simply because it implies that God has direct knowledge of evil. If you get this doctrine wrong therefore, you end up taking what is traditionally regarded as the "wrong" side of the problem of evil, which is that God knows about evil and wills it to happen. The right side of the problem of evil is always that God simply "allows the privation of good."

Catholic theologians essentially refuse to admit that evil has a real existence, so they argue that God predestines people, but only to eternal life. As for the rest, God simply says "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23).

So this is effectively nothing more than semantics; everybody believes in predestination. Aquinas even writes that he believes in predestination in the Summa Theologiae, here's the link:

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

[Anonymous No.18287767]

>>18287676

More to the point that Socionics is Theology, the quadras describing the Christian branches almost better than they describe themselves: Gamma-Gnostic, Delta-Orthodox, Alpha-Catholic, Beta-Protestant. That Catholics accuse Protestants of being Gnostic is not surprising considering they share the same perceiving functions.

[Anonymous No.18287815]

>>18284981
I've never heard this, it's often called crypto-judaism

[Anonymous No.18289653]

>>18286353
>>18287615
>mfw no one dares reply to this even with the "excreting" at the end

[Anonymous No.18289791]

This thread was moved to >>>/his/11172080