/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18284867]

What are some works critical of Marxism by former Marxists?

[Anonymous No.18284879]

basic economics but its been debunked

[Anonymous No.18284883]

>>18284867
Main Currents of Marxism

[Anonymous No.18284892]

>former marxists
You mean shills and people who got killed? Just read the Koch bros substack to get your epic capitalist content.

[Anonymous No.18284907]

>>18284867
Baudrillard

[Anonymous No.18284935]

>>18284867
Kolakowski
>>18284892
>anti-Marxist = captialist
teenager detected

[Anonymous No.18284938]

>>18284892
Marxism isn't infallible.

[Anonymous No.18284939]

>>18284883
please elaborate. Isn’t this just a historical account of marxism and its variants?

[Anonymous No.18284952]

>>18284939
Yes and it's the best book of it's kind. Kolakowski is an ex-Marxist

[Anonymous No.18284955]

>>18284867
Former Marxists are some of my favorite writers. I recommend Christoph Lasch, Jacques Ellul, and Alasdair MacIntyre in particular.

[Anonymous No.18285028]

Any books by jacques ellul

[Anonymous No.18285040]

>>18284952
yea but it’s critical of Marxism?

[Anonymous No.18285048]

>>18284879
imagine thinking Sowell has been debunked lmao

[Anonymous No.18285056]

>>18284867
Thomas sowell comes to mind

[Anonymous No.18285071]

>>18285040
More so it shows how Stalinism and its terror had a foundation in Marx and was not some random distortion.

[Anonymous No.18285080]

>>18285071
Why are you pretending to read a book you haven't read, can't fucking stand you pseuds.

[Anonymous No.18285259]

Camatte

[Anonymous No.18285272]

>>18284867
All of Sowell. He became anti Marxist after working in the government.

[Anonymous No.18285309]

F.A Hayek - The fatal conceit

[Anonymous No.18285349]

Arthur Koestler's stuff

[Anonymous No.18285428]

>>18285080
Seethe. The third book is named The Breakdown, you bet it's critical of Marxism. The only mistake it makes is thinking that Marxism's shambling zombie was dead.
Every butthurt lefty is an endorsement.

[Anonymous No.18286137]

>>18284867
Eugene Genovese

Read his history for kino southern traditionalism, and read the essay "The Question"

I love that dago

[Anonymous No.18287858]

b

[Anonymous No.18287884]

>>18285309
>Hayek
They guy who hated Keynes and accused him of commie tendencies, even though he single-handedly saved capitalism?

[Anonymous No.18287886]

>>18285272
>He became anti Marxist after working in the government

[Anonymous No.18287988]

I feel like if right wing retards bothered to read anything they’d probably agree with Marx than they disagree. Instead they think Marx wrote black magic. Even his critique of religion is gently done with tact and care. He was an atheist but he wasn’t a violent new atheist nigger. I feel like the Marxist conception of history isn’t even that controversial. Of course material conditions and the relation of production influences our culture and spirituality that in turn affects how we engage with our material conditions. People need to daily drink, eat, and perform bodily functions and are bound by material forces.

Also Marx was homophobic, racist, engaged in duels, and was quite harsh toward Jewish people despite being ethnically Jewish himself. He denigrated fellow communists who believed were homosexuals in private correspondences. He didn’t say anything about Black Lives Matter, being transgender, or whatever else you misattribute to him.

Start here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=chIYUl_RDEQ&list=PLKM7BlTpOo4ku4CGTcQ0GgGif7irwGPUS&index=1

[Anonymous No.18288052]

>>18287988
>I feel like if right wing retards bothered to read anything they’d probably agree with Marx than they disagree. Instead they think Marx wrote black magic.
The problem you lefties don't understand about why righties dislike Marx is because what he wrote about the human condition is not based in reality but pulled out of his ass. His historical materialism is extremely short sighted and has only very limited practical applicability, yet marxists use it as eschatology. You may disagree, but your post makes it clear you don't understand where righties are coming from. Sure, his criticism of capitalism is decent enough and many rightiest disregard that, I'll agree.
>Even his critique of religion is gently done with tact and care. He was an atheist but he wasn’t a violent new atheist nigger.
It stems from ressentiment. Like many other atheists before and after him he didn't understand the spiritual need religion fulfills, and he had no solution for tthis, because he didn't understand it.
>I feel like the Marxist conception of history isn’t even that controversial. Of course material conditions and the relation of production influences our culture and spirituality that in turn affects how we engage with our material conditions. People need to daily drink, eat, and perform bodily functions and are bound by material forces.
And you don't unerstand either. It's very controversial. There's a reason commies are never truly happy or fulfilled. Go to India for example and you'll find poor but content people, yet atheists are rich but never satisfied. Material aspects are less important than spiritual ones.
>Also Marx was homophobic, racist, engaged in duels, and was quite harsh toward Jewish people despite being ethnically Jewish himself.
He was a selfhating jew but still behaved like one. He still worshipped mammon and materialism. Marx is the perfect example of the point that jews are still jews even without judaism.
>He denigrated fellow communists who believed were homosexuals in private correspondences.
Okay.
>He didn’t say anything about Black Lives Matter, being transgender, or whatever else you misattribute to him.
But he paved the way for it, which is the point you're missing.
>Start here:
No, fuck off.

[Anonymous No.18288088]

>>18288052
tl;dr but I’m almos certain it was stupid as fuck as all RW critiques of Marx invariably are

[Anonymous No.18288096]

>>18284955
I love these three too. Also adding Mussolini and Gentile's The Doctrine of Fascism.

[Anonymous No.18288127]

>>18287988
>He was an atheist but he wasn’t a violent new atheist nigger
He's even worse than the new atheists. New atheists are philosophically incompetent retards but they're bourgeois liberals and thus relatively harmless. As much as they hate religion they need religion to remain afloat and popular. They enjoy making fun of religion whilst acknowledging that everyone has the right to his own vagarities and is entitled to believe in whatever he wants so long as he doesn't harm others. Marx was worse than that - he didn't want freedom of religion but freedom from religion. He thought that the religious mindset was a form of ideological self-reflection of a society ripe with material contradictions and class struggle.
> I feel like the Marxist conception of history isn’t even that controversial. Of course material conditions and the relation of production influences our culture and spirituality that in turn affects how we engage with our material conditions.
that's like saying incel blackpill theory is uncontroversial because everyone knows that attractive people lead better lives. Marx maintained that material conditions are dominant influence and not just one factor among many equally influential factors
>People need to daily drink, eat, and perform bodily functions and are bound by material forces.
this is trivialy true but it doesn't follow that material conditions are dominant because they're the most basic.
>Also Marx was homophobic, racist
so what? his philosophy is inherently pro-LGBT and anti-racist so it doesn't matter
>engaged in duels
he literally chickened out of a duel with a fellow communist
>Start here:
I've read German Ideology and it's definitely not a good place to start. it's full of references to Young Hegelian philosophers some of which are literally whos forgotten even by Marxists themselves. start with something lighter like Anti-Duhring

[Anonymous No.18288205]

>>18288127
>He's even worse than the new atheists. New atheists are philosophically incompetent retards but they're bourgeois liberals and thus relatively harmless. As much as they hate religion they need religion to remain afloat and popular. They enjoy making fun of religion whilst acknowledging that everyone has the right to his own vagarities and is entitled to believe in whatever he wants so long as he doesn't harm others. Marx was worse than that - he didn't want freedom of religion but freedom from religion. He thought that the religious mindset was a form of ideological self-reflection of a society ripe with material contradictions and class struggle.

And it isn’t?

> Marx maintained that material conditions are dominant influence and not just one factor among many equally influential factors

What are you saying here? I don’t understand. Of course the superstructure is built on top of the base but people aren’t economically deterministic automata. Marx and Engels attested to this. I’m trying hard to understand what the fuck you’re saying here unless I’m critically misunderstanding

> that's like saying incel blackpill theory is uncontroversial because everyone knows that attractive people lead better lives

Uhhhh... I mean... yeah?

> this is trivialy true but it doesn't follow that material conditions are dominant because they're the most basic.

They’re not the most basic - they’re the most essential. Try not drinking water for two days lol.

[Anonymous No.18288216]

>>18288088
The tl;dr was that lefties don't understand rightist critique of Marx because they can only view things from their own perspective and don't bother trying to understand the other side.
So thanks for proving my point, retarded pedo commie

[Anonymous No.18288228]

>>18284938
>my religion is fallible
Yeah, right, buddy. What're you going to say next? That Marx isn't God? Get a grip.

[Anonymous No.18288230]

>>18288216
Let me guess something something Marx was a Jew something something Adolf Hitler. Wow excellent rebuttal man!

[Anonymous No.18288234]

>>18288216
>Rightoids reading Marx (or anything longer than a Sargon video)
citation needed

[Anonymous No.18288238]

>>18288205
how do you make the leap from "you can't go two days without drinking water" to "economic conditions are the most essential determining factor of social change"? especially given that at current level of economic development in Western countries material improvement means more superfluous consumer goods as opposed to more essentials like water and food?

[Anonymous No.18288240]

>>18288127
>Marx was worse than that - he didn't want freedom of religion but freedom from religion.
Marxists will seethe, but their repression of religion doomed their movement, at least in America. If they had allowed freedom of religion, I guarantee you the American South would be a Marxist stronghold. But nope, they had to sperg out everytime they've come to power across the world, and give their opponents free PR.

[Anonymous No.18288248]

>>18288230
Again, thanks for proving my point that retarded commies don't understand the other side and its criticism of marx. You can read my post here >>18288052 but I understand reading is not something commies like to do
>>18288234
Your buddy here just proved lefties are the one that don't read, retard. Sargon is a centrist, not a right winger. I hope this is bait.

[Anonymous No.18288250]

>>18284938
Marx wasn’t creating “Marxism”. He was just a sociologist who wrote about history and tried to create a deterministic model for predicting history. Engels tried to post hoc synthesis all of his beliefs into a coherent political system after he died. Mao, Lenin, Castro, and Stalin didn’t open up a manual giving them directions to kill a bunch of innocent people and run a criminal gangster state lol.

You read Marx, agree with his assertions, disagree with others, if you so choose and then either reject or incorporate them into your own system of values. Do you like Aristotle or Plato? Did Shakespeare write something you found to be insightful or profound? It’s the same fucking thing. For some reason people only treat Marx this way. I don’t get it.

[Anonymous No.18288252]

unironically Foucault lol

[Anonymous No.18288257]

>>18288216
>thanks for proving my point, retarded pedo commie

[Anonymous No.18288258]

>>18288250
>For some reason people only treat Marx this way. I don’t get it.
Did you forget about Christ and Christianity? Did you forget about Platonism?

[Anonymous No.18288260]

>>18285259
This.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/camatte/capcom/on-org.htm

[Anonymous No.18288261]

>>18284867
There is none they all starved to death

[Anonymous No.18288262]

>>18285272
thats hella sus no kizzy

[Anonymous No.18288265]

>>18288257
He did prove my point, retard. And Shapiro is a filthy grifter.

[Anonymous No.18288271]

>>18284892
>The opposite of Marxism is Capitalism
Just fucking lol

[Anonymous No.18288272]

>>18288248
>Your buddy here just proved lefties are the one that don't read, retard.
What Marxist literature have you read? I thought so, FAGGOT

[Anonymous No.18288283]

>>18288272
anyone who got a degree has read the communist manifesto and probably some lenin excerpts. by acting like no one has read marx you just reveal that you are uneducated which might be why you've fallen for a bunch of 19th century economic fallacies

[Anonymous No.18288287]

>>18284867
Orwell was kind of a reformed Marxist (he fought for the POUM militia in Spain though he was never a full blown commie). His takedowns of the far left and far right are some of the best. For a non-former Marxists, there is Raymond Aron who wrote Opiate of the Intellectuals, which captures the naivety and whataboutism of Western defenders of Stalinism.

[Anonymous No.18288301]

>>18288272
Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Adorno. Some more which I don't know if they would qualify as Marxist for you purity spiraling retard such as Kropotkin and Bakunin.
What right wing literature have you read? I thought so, FAGGOT

[Anonymous No.18288320]

>>18284892
Based

[Anonymous No.18288334]

>>18287988
Also based

[Anonymous No.18288337]

>>18284867
Currently reading Oriental Despotism by Karl Wittfogel, who was an ex-commie anti-communist.
Severely criticizes Marx on the question of the Asiatic mode of production, among other things in the book.

[Anonymous No.18288345]

>>18288283
>anyone who got a degree has read the communist manifesto and probably some lenin excerpts.
In other words, you haven't actually read anything about Marxism except some scraps necessary to get your degree.

[Anonymous No.18288353]

>>18288345
Are you retarded? You've again proven that commies can't read since that's not what was implied at all

[Anonymous No.18288354]

Reading Rousseau made me a Marxist. I’m convinced ancient Sparta was Marxist.

[Anonymous No.18288364]

>>18288353
So you haven't even read the commie manifesto? You are not only illiterate but you lack a spine as well, which is usually the one of the few redeeming qualities rightoids have.

[Anonymous No.18288382]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D305KHykOnM

it's not a book but you should check out the 1975 movie "the human factor" by edward dmytryk. he was blacklisted from hollywood for being a communist in the 40s, but by the 70s he knew communism was bunk and came out with this anti-communist revenge flic. quite comfy.

[Anonymous No.18288388]

>>18288364
This is me >>18288301 retard
Yes, of course I've read the commie manifesto.
And again you prove that commies can't read since that's not what was implied at all

[Anonymous No.18288391]

>>18284867
>former Marxists?
No such thing.
"""Former""" Marxists become fascists or anarchists. Most of the books written by former Marxists are shillcore.

[Anonymous No.18288401]

Raymond Aron

[Anonymous No.18288403]

>>18288301
Ay I would like to know your opinion on what i see as marx materialism and if to fix (if so) would that "validate" neomarxist or another ideology?

[Anonymous No.18288438]

Kolakowski because he actually knew what he was talking about.

Also that Polish mercenary worked for the Saudis in Yemen. The worst people in the world. I'll pick the other side

https://youtu.be/sv13s5JmvS4

>>18288287
Ehh Orwell was never really a Marxist

[Anonymous No.18288458]

>>18288388
Stop weaseling around like a retarded nigger. Have you actually read anything about Marx besides the Communist Manifesto?

[Anonymous No.18288480]

Ay I would like to know your opinion on what i see as marx materialism and if to fix (if so) would that "validate" neomarxist or another ideology?

[Anonymous No.18288493]

>>18288403
I'm not sure if I'm the right person to ask since I am opposed to materialism (I'm neither marxist nor capitalist). Yes marxism is extremely materialistic, I do think neomarxism corrected some flaws of marxism since it addressed more than just the economic part of life, but since they were all also built from a materialist worldview they can never fully escape the "matrix". It's still very life-denying and neurotic. Fascism came closer to fixing the materialist problems but was also flawed of course through flirting with modernism and futurism. Not sure if that was what you were looking for.

[Anonymous No.18288507]

>>18288458
instead of carrying on this absurd strawman just make your fucking point about marx already if you even have one

[Anonymous No.18288512]

>>18288458
I'm not weaseling around you pedo, I gave you the authors I've read. I used to consider myself a leftie, I was heavy into the anarcho shit. The manifesto was the first thing I've read many years ago, I've also read Das Kapital and several works by Lenin.
Now answer me you absolute faggot, what right wing literature have you read?

[Anonymous No.18288541]

On the Jews and Their Lies
Mein Kampf

[Anonymous No.18288562]

>>18288512
>I'm not weaseling around you pedo, I gave you the authors I've read. I used to consider myself a leftie, I was heavy into the anarcho shit.
And how did your brain go to shit then. Was it a traffic accident?
>Now answer me you absolute faggot, what right wing literature have you read?
I don't remember ever saying that I read garbage.

[Anonymous No.18288565]

>>18288493
Thanks one of the issues I thought marx had was that most of his economical views where built around making material things which I believe we have moved on from
>same flaw fraud had a too "limited sample" that make the theory only apply to a very specific thing, like single parent household I frauds case

[Anonymous No.18288576]

>>18288565 me
Edit for gold
single parent household is what breaks frauds theory

[Anonymous No.18288587]

>>18288250
>Marx wasn’t creating “Marxism”
What's the communist manifesto then?

[Anonymous No.18288635]

>>18288587
Let it go they to mentally retarded to understand prefixes like proto neo and post. It's like Christians calling themself jews

[Anonymous No.18288653]

>>18284955
>Jacques Ellul
Absolutely can recommend,most people now just read him because he inspired Ted K,but he had some very interesting ideas,I don't think it's neccesary to have read Marx beforehand either,altough I'm sure you might go ''aaaahh'' every now and then,especially when he talks about alienation,I feel like he develops a lot of concepts better than Marx does.
His solution,which is ''technoskeptic Christian anarchism (mutualism)'',and I'm saying this as someone who has actually bothered reading some Proudhon,isn't that ''well developed'',it's more ''autistically developed'',you'll understand after you start reading him
Also, ''Propaganda'' is a schizo book,be prepared,I'm pretty sure normie anarchists and communists still enjoy it however,despite not agreeing with Ellul's other works,pretty sure butters even posted it in some retarded context.
His Christian marxist works I didn't read,not exactly planning to either.
Overall,I don't really think ''Capitalism'' is THE problem,and I find conversation with people who think Capitalism is THE problem to be very boring now.
>>18287988
>Also Marx was homophobic, racist,harsh towards jews
Low IQ retard,you sound like a leftypol user,disgusting.
>>18284892
Works critical of Marxism don't have to be ''right wing'',I genuinely hope this is bait.
No fucking way even the ''based lefties'' are this dumb,go larp on /his/.
>>18288250
Good post
>>18288127
>start with something lighter like Anti-Duhring
Unironically good suggestion here

[Anonymous No.18288654]

>>18288052
>Marx is because what he wrote about the human condition is not based in reality but pulled out of his ass
how exactely?
> has only very limited practical applicability
again, what does that mean? What practical applications can theory of history even have?
>It stems from ressentiment.
No. Stop misusing the word.
>Material aspects are less important than spiritual ones.
Missing the point. Material development in third world in general has drastically changed their spirituality in the past few decades. The wealthier a country became (more material changes), the more had the religion changed.
>He still worshipped mammon
How? Goal of his philosophy was abolishment of currency.
>But he paved the way for it
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.18288657]

>>18288562
>And how did your brain go to shit then. Was it a traffic accident?
How old are you? 12? No, I broadened my horizons, was turned off by how retarded marxists/commies/leftists are in real life. I read more than just left wing schizo babble and saw how narrow minded it actually was. You should try it.
>I don't remember ever saying that I read garbage.
So you've never read any capitalist literature? Fascist? Monarchist? Theist? Traditionalist?
You prove my point that leftists don't read. Reading to affirm the beliefs you already have does nothing, it's like a christian saying he's well read when all he reads is the bible.
Faggots like yourself are one of the reasons I concluded that leftism equals brain rot.

[Anonymous No.18288688]

Marxism is better bait then Christianity kek

[Anonymous No.18288696]

>>18288238
>"you can't go two days without drinking water" to "economic conditions are the most essential determining factor of social change"?
By looking at how much time and effort we spent on pursuing and spending money.

>especially given that at current level of economic development in Western countries material improvement means more superfluous consumer goods as opposed to more essentials like water and food?
Jesus, its not about improvements. Sometimes shit even changes for worst. But it still changes a lot, more so than ever before. Do you even realize how much social change was brought about by internet becoming widespread? Incorporation of Chinese labour into global market? Deindustrialization of West? Mobile phones? Industrial pollution? Common availability of cars? Domination of office labour? Sugarification of diet? Plastics? Or just the fucking chinese shivers, those are also mere materia.

[Anonymous No.18288703]

It's bizarre that you all believe any of your "learned" opinions matter or that what you say achieves anything but personal cope, irony intended. You spend days to years wanking yourselves over reading and digging into dead men who accomplished more in their twenties than you your entire lives and yet you do nothing but turn to dust while you sit on this shitheap posting about how marxism is good or bad, fascism good or bad, incel incest posting and etc. What exactly do you guys derive from this mediocre loop and why aren't you aware enough that you don't matter nor your gay opinions? This problem stems back even a decade ago on here, perhaps more, and it's always been this way seemingly across the board on the internet in general, but specifically 4chan. Why exactly are you still here pretending your posts elicit anything but furthering the cycle of failure between yourselves?

t. tourist from /sci/.

[Anonymous No.18288710]

>>18288127
>his philosophy is inherently pro-LGBT and anti-racist
what the fuck?

[Anonymous No.18288711]

Sowell completely BTFOd Cuckism

[Anonymous No.18288718]

>>18288654
>how exactely?
I explained it. It takes one aspect of the human condition, namely materialistic, and disregards all others. He then tries to artificially project all other aspects of life into that narrow frame. Don't get me wrong, capitalism does the exact same but to another end.
>again, what does that mean? What practical applications can theory of history even have?
That you cannot build a world view out of it, yet that is exactly what has been tried with disastrous consequences. Marxism's eschatology of the end of the human condition is based on its view of history, and if the premiss is wrong, so will be the conclusion. As has been proven.
>No. Stop misusing the word.
Yes. Marx was a jealous cunt that hated the working class but hated the ruling class even more. Read his personal letters.
>Missing the point. Material development in third world in general has drastically changed their spirituality in the past few decades. The wealthier a country became (more material changes), the more had the religion changed.
No, you're missing the point. You're not wrong but that is exactly the problem. People are enticed by short term material gains to give up or radically alter their spirituality and lose sight of long term goals.
Man needs spirituality more than material wealth, even if he does not realize this himself. See my example of a poor but content man in India contrasted with a rich but unfulfilled man in the west. Marxism won't change that since it is just as materialistic as our current capitalist/neoliberal system. It disregards spiritual needs.
>How? Goal of his philosophy was abolishment of currency.
If you want to play semantic games then sure. But what I meant was the same as above, he worshipped material wealth above all else. Communism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin. Mammon means the material over the spiritual. Being fed and surviving makes you no different than an animal.
>Wrong.
No, correct. Just like how Hobbes paved the way for neoliberalism.

[Anonymous No.18288728]

>>18288703
You were a chad untile the /sci/ part
That's when you turnet into a retard
Reading AND studying is a waste of time when you could be having S E X ,and BOOKCELS can't have SEX hence why they read so many BOOKS

[Anonymous No.18288738]

>>18288657
>How old are you? 12? No, I broadened my horizons, was turned off by how retarded marxists/commies/leftists are in real life. I read more than just left wing schizo babble and saw how narrow minded it actually was. You should try it.
"I broadened my horizons". Right. I doubt you ever read any Left wing literature. At most you may watch richard spencer videos on YT.
>So you've never read any capitalist literature? Fascist? Monarchist? Theist? Traditionalist?
Didn't you call Sargon a Centrist faggot, why did you put libs on the Right now.
The only good "Monarchist" or close to it political theory is Hegel. Fascists don't have any good political literature. None.

[Anonymous No.18288739]

>>18288728
>inb4 gramarr
Dont care bookcel

[Anonymous No.18288744]

>>18288728
Don't care I'm interested in biology and chemistry so I'm into /sci/. Sounds like you're coping about being a materialet, dreaming of sex but never securing it. Sex comes when you don't care about it due to the female inability to be an adjusted human being. Give me a real answer already.

[Anonymous No.18288756]

>>18288728

[Anonymous No.18288777]

>>18288744
Haha no BUDDY
I come on /lit/ to laugh at all the bookcels,I don't need to ''dream of sex'',that just sounds like a bookcels cope

[Anonymous No.18288780]

>>18288703
Fuck science
Go back your shitehole

[Anonymous No.18288781]

>>18288240
This is absolutely a thing that weakened them in the long run. In Eastern Europe, where the majority of the lower classes lived in rural regions until quite recently, and were quite religious the constant chimping out against religion never did the communists any good. It wasn't until after WW2 that they could install themselves in a top-down scheme by the soviets.

[Anonymous No.18288787]

>>18288777
Checked but don't care. The fact that you have those images saved says everything I need to know about you. Good luck on tinder though. :)

[Anonymous No.18288790]

>>18285428
>The third book is named The Breakdown, you bet it's critical of Marxism.
you mean "i bet"

[Anonymous No.18288814]

>>18288718
>He then tries to artificially project all other aspects of life into that narrow frame
Thats not pulling things from your ass. Thats just standard social theory, which simplifies human condition so that it can be studied.
>Don't get me wrong, capitalism does the exact same but to another end.
No and it is very stupid to say so, because capitalism is not a way to study human history.
>yet that is exactly what has been tried with disastrous consequences
Seriously doubt that. Russians have very fond memories of SSSR and Chinese development was a great success, compared to lets say the spiritualist india you mentioned.
>You're not wrong but that is exactly the problem
Then I am correct and you are missing the point by shifting to the normative plane. Materialism in our context is descriptive, it tries to provide general theory about human development. If you dont like the way human culture developed, then fine but its whole another topic.
> See my example of a poor but content man in India contrasted with a rich but unfulfilled man in the west.
How about we compare migration between poor religious countries and rich atheist countries? You better go preach to all those refugee barges in mediterranean.
>But what I meant was the same as above, he worshipped material wealth above all else.
No, as can be demonstrated by his poor living condition.
>No, correct.
You are supposed to argue why. Burden of evidence and shit.

[Anonymous No.18288818]

>>18288777
They even have "stack threads" but know nothing about tes and working out, they just sit there lifting a stacks of harry potter books fucking bookcels

[Anonymous No.18288824]

>>18288787
I have just one picture that I keep using,problem bookcel?
Trips of truth btw,it was a cope
You can suck my dick (pic related),I angled the picture for you,bookcel

[Anonymous No.18288840]

>>18288738
>"I broadened my horizons". Right. I doubt you ever read any Left wing literature. At most you may watch richard spencer videos on YT.
I just have you a list of things I read. What else do you want? Do you want an essay? Fuck off, retard. Like I said, faggots like yourself are the reason why leftism equals brain rot. You have an insanely narrow view of life. Is it really so hard to imagine that I was a raised in a socialist household, got pulled toward anarchism in uni, and turned away from leftism after I decided to read more broadly and had lived together with people from all walks of life? You absolute faggot.
>Didn't you call Sargon a Centrist faggot, why did you put libs on the Right now.
Yes Sargon is a centrist. Where did I talk about libs? i mentioned capitalism since lefties always consider it right wing. Therefore I mentioned multiple ideologies which I have read and you haven't, dipshit.
>The only good "Monarchist" or close to it political theory is Hegel.
You have no idea what you're talking about. What monarchist literature have you read?
>Fascists don't have any good political literature. None.
How can you know if you've never read it? At most you may watch Vaush videos on YT.

[Anonymous No.18288846]

>>18288240
>Marxists will seethe, but their repression of religion doomed their movement, at least in America.
South America maybe. USA not, because first Marx heavily shat on american leftists for focusing on shit like "free love" (tendency which we only saw increasing) which prevented them from focusing on economical topics. Second is simply because it was so rich and working man could really make better living for himself than in other part of the globe.

[Anonymous No.18288860]

>>18288814
>>18288718
>>18288657
>>18288654
This is unironically /b/ tier political discussion,and does not belong on /lit/
China,or the USSR being efficient is not a ''great succes'' btw

[Anonymous No.18288867]

>>18288860
>China,or the USSR being efficient is not a ''great succes''
4U

[Anonymous No.18288877]

>>18288867
For anyone except for the ruling elite

[Anonymous No.18288879]

>>18288860
>Copyright Reuters
AAAAAAHHHHHH WHY THE FUCK THEY DON"T MENTION PHOTOGRAPHER"S NAME

[Anonymous No.18288882]

>>18288860
Its not about find a truth but who can limp writs slap the other the hardest and about who gets to play on the switch while their polywife's boyfriend Tyrone sexually satisfy her

[Anonymous No.18288896]

>>18288882
tbqh that color scheme makes me think more spiderman than mario

[Anonymous No.18288900]

>>18288238
>especially given that at current level of economic development in Western countries material improvement means more superfluous consumer goods as opposed to more essentials like water and food?
that's actually one of the myriad of points Marx makes. capitalism means accumulation of capital for its own sake, or production for production's sake and not for the sake of satisfying human need. because of that, superfluous things get produced and artificial desires created so that those products can be consumed, all the while there's still a growing (in absolute terms) number of people who don't have their basic needs satisfied. the latter group is a necessary product of capital and it will keep coming into conflict with capital until it abolishes it.
so even the little tidbit you posted only proves the materialist understanding of history.

>>18288718
what you describe to yourself as a lack of "spirituality" is in reality a lack of social humanity, which some of your poor people in India indeed have in so far as they still live in rural communities that haven't been completely subsumed by capital and retain traces of the communities of asiatic communal production. and this social humanity is exactly what communism re-establishes, except in a form adequate to the modern development of the means of human metabolism with nature.

[Anonymous No.18288926]

>>18288900
>what you describe to yourself as a lack of "spirituality" is in reality a lack of social humanity, which some of your poor people in India indeed have in so far as they still live in rural communities that haven't been completely subsumed by capital and retain traces of the communities of asiatic communal production. and this social humanity is exactly what communism re-establishes, except in a form adequate to the modern development of the means of human metabolism with nature.
No, you have no idea what you're talking about. Those communities are held together by common spiritual practice, not by communal production which is only the result of that. Marxism has none of that. Social humanity is a materialist cope for the lack of true higher values. So long as you don't understand how metaphysics of spiritual practices work, you'll never understand why marxism and capitalism (both materialism) will never be anything more than an empty shell.

[Anonymous No.18288934]

>>18284867
Alasdair Macintyre's ouvre

[Anonymous No.18288935]

>>18288896
Same, but the sad thing is that's just a bonus for the 21th century cucked manchild
Spiderman x bing bing woaauuhh

[Anonymous No.18288966]

>>18288877
And the common people.

I dont think you even realize how much spiritual degradation did fall of sssr brought forth. Where working people were exalted, they suddenly became scum under the heels of oligarhcs. Where manual labour was considered noble and socially important, it now means you are "unsuccesful". Where prostitution was largely unthinkable, it suddenly became a common phenomenom. Where people believed in better tommorows, they are now happy when they have another today. Where people dreamed of grand ventures of space exploration, they now dream of mundane purchases of chinese electronics. Fall of communism brought spiritual degradation, irregardless of Putin clamping down wild capitalism or rehabilitating the church and heavily shilling for it.

[Anonymous No.18288984]

>>18288926
>will never be anything more than an empty shell.
Sadly, those empty shells have pretty good historical record of crushing down your spiritual way of life. How do you deal with the question of survival? Do you just accept martyrdom?

[Anonymous No.18289017]

>>18284867
Walter E. Wiiliams and Sowell are both former marxists.

[Anonymous No.18289097]

>>18284955
Also Thomas Sowell

[Anonymous No.18289334]

>>18288966
>dont think you even realize how much spiritual degradation did fall of sssr brought forth
>spiritual degradation
>fall brought forth
lel

[Anonymous No.18289744]

>>18288088
>tl;dr but I’m almos certain it was stupid as fuck as all RW critiques of Marx invariably are
This post right here is a fantastic critique of Marxism (or Marxists). No matter how many things Marx got right (he wasn't ALWAYS wrong, historical materialism is stupid but the alienation of labor is pretty accurate), Marxists are so fucking brainwashed that even getting them to acknowledge the existence of a legitimate criticism of Marx is completely out of the question. Same with >>18288562
>I don't remember ever saying that I read garbage.
How do you know it's garbage?
>it disagrees with Marx
Such brainwashed people couldn't make the best ideology in the world succeed, and Marxism certainly isn't that.

[Anonymous No.18289780]

>>18284892
Retard.

[Anonymous No.18290041]

>>18287988
so what is exactly is being a marxist since being a communist isn't being marxist? acknowledging the relationships between class? how is that an identity?

[Anonymous No.18290216]

>>18284867
>Those communities are held together by common spiritual practice, not by communal production which is only the result of that.
their communal production didn't derive from spiritual practice but from the material fact that the evolutionary strategy of humans was to live in close-knit and extensive families.

their communal production was preserved throughout centuries because the subcontinent is too vast and the number of the communities too large for any invaders to be able to install themselves in any other way than by just leaving the communities alone and simply extracting tribute in kind from them. and the communities were ready to agree to this without resisting too much and risking self-destruction, because they actually needed a state for grand works such as irrigation, which was due to geographic reasons.

and finally, their communal production was undermined because of the superior efficiency of capitalist manufacture and agriculture and the demand for proletarians in the cities to power the rising industry

at every step the development was dictated by material facts. and in so far as religion helped to preserve the communal form, it was in a practical way, by making the individuals maintain in the established way all the relations that needed to be in place for the community to reproduce itself in tact.

communism does away with the need for that, because at this time of history conscious control over nature and over our own relations is possible due to the development of productive forces, including science. this control doesn't have to be mystified in religions forms and indeed it can't be, because the exactness of understanding required when a worldwide advanced society manages its affairs is much, much higher than in small communities that were able to get by using rough heuristics codified as rituals and religious beliefs

[Anonymous No.18290321]

>>18288653
>Also, ''Propaganda'' is a schizo book,be prepared,I'm pretty sure normie anarchists and communists still enjoy it however,despite not agreeing with Ellul's other works,pretty sure butters even posted it in some retarded context.
What do you mean?

[Anonymous No.18290412]

>>18285272
>He became anti Marxist after working in the government.

[Anonymous No.18290429]

>>18284867
Sowell is a former Marxist who’s published academic papers on Marxist thought. His criticisms are fairly standard but correct nonetheless.

[Anonymous No.18290436]

>>18284867
I'd imagine Mussolini was very critical of Marxism.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18290622]

>>18290429
>Sowell is a former Marxist
Evidently not.

[Anonymous No.18290750]

>>18284867
Read Main Currents of Marxism, then this one.

[Anonymous No.18290853]

>>18290622
Wym? He was a Marxist during his 20s and wrote papers in support of it, then he stopped being one. That's what "former marxist" means.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18290867]

>>18290853
Who did he study Marxism under? What party did he join? Trotskists?

[Anonymous No.18290874]

>>18290853
ideologues don't like admitting their religions can be departed from

[Anonymous No.18290899]

>>18287884
How? By extending the depression?

[Anonymous No.18290945]

>>18290867
Are you really trying to deny basic biographical facts about his life? lol. I don’t know if he joined a party, he simply read the complete works of Marx, Engels, and some others.

[Anonymous No.18290989]

>>18290874
This.
>show me an example of x
>here's x
>no, that doesn't count
>repeat ad infinitum
It's all so tiresome.

[Anonymous No.18290997]

>>18288710
communism has the most gay adherents of any ideology

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18291016]

>>18290997
Because it stands to let them alone. But there are quite a lot of homosexual fascists too. They’re just masochistic that way.

>>18290945
Ah. So he wasn’t a Marxist. He just bought liberalism, or rather liberalism bought him off, like everybody else.

[Anonymous No.18291037]

>>18291016
>Ah. So he wasn’t a Marxist.
>>18290989

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18291072]

>>18291037
I’m not a Marxist. Sowell wasn’t either. Maybe in his youth he wanted to solve the problems of his impoverished community, but liberal economics lured him to make money by deluded people with cheap books. The result, Oprah, Barkley, Obama and all the other bourgeois blacks of the world.
He was always an empty head waiting to be manipulated.

[Anonymous No.18291216]

>>18290867
>>18291016
Thinking that you can only be a marxist if you study under a marxist is the most bougie shit I've ever heard.

Unironically.
With the most sincerity.
Not shitposting in the least.
The world would be better off without you.

[Anonymous No.18291242]

>>18291216
Don't chew on the tripfag bait too hard, it's not going anywhere and you'll just hurt your teeth.

[ReleaseMeFromThisMask-LikeForm !!HraTM3Vvtb/ No.18291247]

>>18291072
I haven’t yet had a chance to read the book, but I plan to. Sowell was one of those guys who, like so many other liberals, taught African Americans that all the problems they had were caused by slavery, and in a few minutes could teach you how to break it all down.

[Anonymous No.18291252]

>>18291216
>>18291242
Ignore the retarded butterfly.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18291530]

>>18291247
And that slavery continues today under a new deal.

>>18291216
Look at the preeminent Marxists of today. How many of them are millionaires now? Meh, Sow-ear was an edgy Marxists, and wrote a book on it? Only after dropping it for liberalism. I get it already, I just don’t think he’s a deep enough thinker to get what he’s writing about. But maybe that’s just the optimist in me. Maybe he is evil.

[Anonymous No.18291719]

>>18285071
that is literally obvious to anyone who has read magyar struggle and foundations of leninism on the national question and put 2 and 2 together given that in foundations says that marx supported such and such in the forties of the last century.

[Anonymous No.18293086]

>>18284867
Stalinist works.

[Anonymous No.18293123]

>>18288096
Came here to post this, and to add on de Rivera and Mosely.

[Anonymous No.18293129]

Where were you when you realized Marxists and all social critics were Nietzsche's "grunting pigs" or Zarathustra's Ape?

[Anonymous No.18293131]

>>18284867

The Rebel - Camus

[Anonymous No.18293502]

>>18288703
>A fucking retard from /sci/ appears to drop his hot little take!

[Anonymous No.18293693]

>>18289744
>How do you know it's garbage?
Zero influence on any serious philosopher. Which is why Fascists always try to appropriate Nietzsche, Sorel or whomever. Their own political theory is shit.

[Anonymous No.18293824]

>>18288260
Based and good read.

[Anonymous No.18294244]

>>18284867
Peter Hitchens

[Anonymous No.18294558]

>>18287988
Is that you Halim Alrah? Reply to my comment on your political compass video you faggot nigger.

[Anonymous No.18294996]

>>18284867
>le fake quote /pol/ man

[Anonymous No.18295898]

marxism isn't a religion, it isn't all or nothing, you can take marxist critiques or marxist analysis and it use it alongside whatever you'd like, baring its coherent.