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/lit/ - Literature

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18273805 No.18273805 [Reply] [Original]

he ruined poetry forever bros...

>> No.18274089

>>18273805
ever since we call it poopetry

>> No.18274117

>>18273805
I’ve decided I’m only going to read the first thirty cantos this year (on XXII at the moment)
Might read the Pisan cantos next year
Trying to read the whole thing in one big chunk is too much

>> No.18274120

He's so lucky he lived before the internet, he'd have been a lolcow.

>> No.18274257

>>18274089
Kek

>> No.18274262

>>18273805
How did he ruin poetry?

>> No.18274285

>>18274262
Not OP but I assume by being so good at it that nothing else can ever compare again

>> No.18274356

>>18274120
this, complete trainwreck hack of a writer

>> No.18274437

>>18274356
>>18274120
You guys are retarded, without him T.S Eliot, Joyce, Hemingway, and Frost wouldn't have been published. He was a genius.

>> No.18274474

>>18274120
>>18274356
imagine being so scared of having radical ideas about art or radical ideas in politics that you apply the abstrusely modern idea of being a "lolcow" to avoid it, using one of the best avant garde writers and patrons of the entire modrenist movement and the man who rediscovered vivaldi and got T.S Eliot and Hemingway published a "lolcow"

>> No.18274576

>>18274437
>>18274474
I don't care about his publishing career, he was a dreadful poet and embarrassing person

>> No.18274588

>>18274576
If it wasn't enough Eliot, Hemingway and Joyce all thought he was a genius too, maybe you just got filtered by his poetry which is why you are malding, also he didn't have a "publishing" career unlike eliot, he literally just had enough literary authority at the time to get all of these niggas published, something which you will never be able to do yourself, I doubt you know anything about poetry

>> No.18274598

>>18274285
He was pretty good, but spawned a bunch of imitators that were no where near as talented

>> No.18274599

>>18274576
Cope, he was the GOAT poet and a based and redpilled MAN

>> No.18274617

>>18274588
They were being polite because he helped their careers, you naive fool

>> No.18274620

>>18274617
You're retarded, his literary genius was respected prior to him having patronized most of the civilized world

>> No.18274706

>>18274620
>people said some things about another man's work
Nice good for them, he's garbage and everyone can see that he fails on a pure aesthetic level, and if you feel compelled to look at his intellectual merit you realize it's non-existant. An embarassing career, at least Olga was hot.

>> No.18274745

>>18273805
He's like the Steve Albini of poetry/literature.
He's responsible for the success of many artists, and while his own work pales in comparison, there are camps of people who say it's the cream of the crop.

>> No.18274768

Suckered by Antheil, suckered by Mussolini, suckered by Fenollosa, suckered by Mullins, who else?

He was very dumb and credulous man. But less dumb and credulous than those he, the sucker, suckered.

>> No.18274778

>>18274706
im sorry that you got filtered anon

>> No.18274796

>>18274768
Prove to me that Mussolini, Antheil, Fenollosa or Mullins were bad for Pound

>> No.18274797

>>18274778
There's nothing to get filtered by, it's like saying I got filtered by a poet trying to write Euclid's Elements, or Eliot trying to write Wittgenstein, he was out of his element and should have stuck to publishing instead of sucking off Mussollini, regretting it, then spending 20-30 years in a mental hospital.

>> No.18274809

>>18274797
This is exactly what a filtered person would say, let me guess you read the first canto and thought it was too hard so you put it down? What, too many allusions to books you haven't read? Too much reference to languages you don't know? Meter that's too complex for you to do a scansion of? Which particular element filtered you?

>> No.18274846

>>18274809
I have not read a page of the Cantos, I was solely referring to his previously published collections and translatons, before he went 'insane.'
He spent 45 years writing the Cantos and it seems it was mostly for himself, so I don't feel compelled to judge that, when there's already a large amount of work available from him that established him as the poet he was during the time period.

>> No.18274851

>>18274797
also he only spent 10 years in a mental hospital, a place he willingly went to not unlike many other writers of his era like Hemingway

>> No.18274863

>>18274846
Ok so you haven't read any pound, you were just filtered by some basic bitch wikischolar biographical details cus u r a sissy

>> No.18274871

>>18273805
He wishes. He could never be capable of doing something so grand.

>> No.18274881

all the people in the thread malding at pound right now have been vaccinated

>> No.18274891

>>18274863
I've read every collection of Pound up until The Cantos, what is so hard to understand. Why would I embark on an 800 page odyssey, half of which is most likely incomprehensible, when I work 12 hours a day and am in law school. Jesus fucking Christ, have you ever read Pound even? He has zero form in his early work and it is garbage, not to mention the surface level allusions.

>> No.18274892
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18274892

>>18273805
He was the final boss of poetry. It's pretty much impossible to write in English after him unless you can outmatch him (pro-tip: you can't). We can still write in Spanish, French, Italian, etc. though, so go learn those languages instead.

>> No.18274894

>>18274796
Mussolini: Shilled for foreign leader who had zero time for him, got thrown in the loony bin for it.
Antheil: He wasn't bad for him, just proof that Pound buys into theories about topics he has little understanding of and repeats these theories like a pseud, he did this his entire life
Fenollosa: Bad for him in the sense of filling his head with false conceptions about Chinese, which hampered his attempts at translating in it, as well as the fact he didn't actually know it. There's a volume which collects his correspondence with Chinese writers, it's painful reading.
Mullins: See Antheil. Just more proof of credulity. I can't imagine what he'd fall for if he had internet access.

I don't think credulity and lack of real world sense is unique to Pound among poets by any means.

>> No.18274933

>>18274891
If you define good poetry by “form” you’re already doing something wrong, and I have zero faith in you to follow allusions. Do you have any specific poets that you think are better examples than pound as the exemplar of the 20th century? Because I don’t think you do with all your malding

>> No.18274945

>>18274933
William Carlos Williams
Hart Crane
WH Auden
Dylan Thomas
Heather McHugh

>> No.18274952

>>18274894
Pound personally met with Mussolini so the idea that he had little time for him is untrue, Antheil was at the foremost of the avant-garde in Paris and pounds interest and friendship with him led him to his friendships with Stravinsky Cocteau le six and Hindesmith basically every relevant 20th century musician
Fenollosa probably true ngl considering that fenollosa was a historian of the Japanese not the Chinese so there probably was some bias

>> No.18274957

>>18274945
0 of these people would be poets or even consider writing poetry without the influence of pound, so the fact that you compiled this list is amusing

>> No.18274962

>>18274957
They're all better than Pound

>> No.18274970

>>18274962
Yet all of them consider him better than themselves, maybe you should take a hint

>> No.18274979

>>18274970
No they don't, and you're wrong. You admit Pound sucks but influenced better poets, thanks.

>> No.18274990

>>18274891
Poetry in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s was stagnant. You also can’t expect an event like WWI to not have an impact on art. He was bold enough to push poetry to something new.

>> No.18274999

>>18274979
I never admitted that lol, you are just seething now, these people were mostly prodiges of pound or followers of pound thought him better than him and so also a qualified teacher, as eliot prefaced the wasteland in italian: “ the better craftsman” in reference to pound’s editing

>> No.18275009

>>18274999
>Eliot
>anti-semite
That's gonna be a nooo for me dawg

I said 5 poets who are all better and have made no reference to Pound.

>> No.18275011

>>18274979
William Carlos Williams was Pound’s roommate in uni and only started writing poetry because of him, Hart Crane only started writing poetry because pound took the time to read his poetry then gave him a rejection writer, Auden called homage to sextus propertius the best poem of the 20th century,

>> No.18275014

>>18273805
Poetry was never good once it detached from oral tradition. It's not that I can't into poetry, it is that I have no respect for vagueness. What others identify as profound comes off to me like an autist ill equipped to adequately express themselves. There is a 1000 times more meaning in embodied expressions of feeling like dance than all the worthless poetry in the world. At least lit makes a real effort to not tolerate obscurity. With exceptions like that embarrassment Finnegan's wake excluded. Prose obsessed fags are just poetry fags in disguise anyway.

>> No.18275020

>>18275009
Ok so you’re mad about poetry because you’re jewish? That logic doesn’t make sense bro you realize most of these people did art for arts sake(including the usura section of the cantos) and that they deliberately made their personal lives and beliefs separate from their art so it wouldn’t fall into sentimentality?

>> No.18275032

>>18275011
>I only started writing because my dad started writing
So anytime anyone inspires you they must be better? Silly, WCW surpassed pound.
Yes he's a publisher idk what to tell you, sounds like Pound rejecting his work influenced him not trying to emulate pound. Pound could have been a publishing troon in this case, irrelevant it was achtually Pound.
So Auden liked one Pound poem

>No mention of the other 2
I win

>> No.18275037

>>18275014
Pounds whole poetic project is to connect the oral tradition of Homer to the modern day so you don’t know what you’re talking about

>> No.18275040

>>18275020
I'm not Jewish, but I've dated Jewish guys in the past and anti-semitism is cringe honestly.
You can't seperate the art from the artist idiot, that's a logical fallacy I'm in law school idiot

>> No.18275046

>>18275032
You are a malding jew who is mad because Pound was the best poet of the 20th century and also an anti semite, I should have realized that when you said you were going to law school

>> No.18275049

>>18274957
>0 of these people would be poets or even consider writing poetry without the influence of pound
That's simply not so. There's not any evidence to suggest that Dylan Thomas was particularly influenced by Pound, and they have no recorded connections to one another.

>> No.18275054

>>18275046
I'm not Jewish and him being an anti-semite is honestly cringe and unforgivable, poetry is supposed to bring love and joy into the world not hate.

>> No.18275055

>>18275049
ok idc more than half of the list wouldn't have existed without pound either way

>> No.18275064

>>18275040
Ok so you are a gay Jew

>> No.18275075

>>18275064
Not gay and not Jewish

>> No.18275077

>>18275075
you are both pretending to be a woman and pretending to not be jewish, pathetic

>> No.18275102

>>18275077
I am not Jewish, anti-semitish is cringe.

I'm Trans

>> No.18275109

>>18275102
Yeah so you are both pretending to be a woman and pretending to not be jewish, again, you're just repeating yourself

>> No.18275116

>>18274262
He killed meter in English poetry. Of course, he disregarded metronomic meter in favor of a musical mode, but most of those who came after him and mimicked him/his movement did not have the talent for this musical mode and hardly considered meter at all, missing the point entirely. John Updike, Maya Angelou, and every shitty Instagram poet come to mind.

>> No.18275124

>>18275109
NGL I'm so turned on right now, got discord?

>> No.18275138

>>18275116
only good criticism i've seen of pound on here, this is coming from the nigga who's been acting as Senior Pound Defense Force for the past hour

>> No.18275151

>>18275116
>John Updike, Maya Angelou, and every shitty Instagram poet come to mind.
Ginsberg is more responsible for that than Pound

>> No.18275152
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18275152

>>18275055
>claims 0 of the authors would exist without Pound
>gets proven wrong
>yeah, well, everyone except that guy!

>> No.18275163

>>18275152
ok I was wrong about Dylan guy who ive never heard about and will never read because I dont care, I was still right about the vast majority of the actually relevant poets on the list

>> No.18275169

>>18275116
Walt Whitman is arguably more responsible for 'killing meter' as he did it about 30-40 years before Pound. I fail to see how Pound is responsible for the writers you mention. Plus John Updike was a great author, he's hardly an example of a decline.

>> No.18275178

>>18275169
>>18275116

less so i think the original statement was less about killing meter and responsibility as a whole. then the amount of successors who rejected pound's belief in musicality

>> No.18275181

>>18275163
>who I've never heard about
Christ, anon. If you don't know who Dylan Thomas is you should really consider leaving this board.

>> No.18275188

>>18275181
some boring welsh nigga who you will never find in any poetry textbook ok idc

>> No.18275245

>>18275188
do you even enjoy Pound or do you just like larping as an intellectual

>> No.18275280

>>18273805
>fascist
Dropped like a tonne of bricks. No support for those who wish to divide us. Solidarity with workers movements worldwide.

>> No.18275285

>>18275245
both

>> No.18275289

>>18275280
Fascism helps workers more than communism

>> No.18275299

>>18275289
Christianity helps more than both

>> No.18275325

>>18275299
tradcuck

>> No.18275373

>>18275299
>Christianity
Opiate of the people.
>>18275289
>fascism
Capitalism in decline.

>> No.18275453

If I had two bullets and was in a rom with Mr. Pound and Hitler I'd shoot Mr. Pound twice. I have not read any of Mr. Pound's work.

>> No.18275462

>>18275373
Communism is a opiate for useless intellectuals

>> No.18275477

>>18275453
i'd shoot myself twice

>> No.18275553

>>18275102
Cringe or not there are much worse things than being antisemitic probably the only thing that would cause me to dislike an author for reasons other than bad writing would be if he was a pedophile (the Greeks get a pass though because the Greeks c'mon man)

>> No.18275561

>>18275553
>if he was a pedophile
projection?

>> No.18275589

>>18275561
>projection?
On to who? I didn't say anyone was just that that's probably the only time I wouldn't separate the art from the artist otherwise personal life/views don't matter

>> No.18275698

>>18274437
what does him helping other actually great authors get published have to do with the quality of his own poetry?

>> No.18275719

>>18275698
nothing, and Hemingway and Frost aren't great.

>> No.18275819

>>18275054
I think you’re confusing poetry with Santa Claus

>> No.18275851

>>18275553
>>18275589
Agreed. However, in Pound's case, some of his art is literally about how much he hates Jews. So in those cases it's a little tough to separate art from artist.
Not saying I hate Pound btw, I'm just cognizant of what a miserable person he could be.

>> No.18276047

>>18274588
maybe you should state your own opinion about his work instead of just parroting the opinions of other great men. You think your appeal to authority will work here?

>> No.18276052

>>18275819
Why?

>> No.18276062

>>18276047
Also, Hemingway and Joyce mean nothing to me. Hemingway is dull, and Joyce has moments of brillance and other moments is outright dull. Eliot is also friends with Pound, so obviously he'll praise him.

>> No.18276111

>>18274745
Atmozier by Big Black (Steves own music) is the best album he was involved with

>> No.18276115

>>18274745
I meant atomizer

>> No.18276155
File: 718 KB, 1284x1830, C79765D3-F5A1-49E8-8980-236E43A6D4FA.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18276155

Just got this
What am i in for?

>> No.18276246

>>18275040
Good bait anon

>> No.18276468

>>18275011
>Hart Crane only started writing poetry because pound took the time to read his poetry
that statment makes no sense

>> No.18276779
File: 72 KB, 850x400, 1558496771401.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18276779

>>18274745
>Steve Albini

>> No.18276797

>>18276779
This isn’t even true anymore sadly

>> No.18276983

>>18273805
Once again Pound is found to attract the amateurish readers of poetry. It happens every time, that the worshipers of Pound have read and understood all of poetry through his eyes. He was a failed poet. He was a literary sideshow attraction. Better poets were working before and after him.

>> No.18277037

>>18276797
It still is true. A loaf of bread, a pound of roast beef and a pound of swiss will run you 15-17 bucks and will last you lunches for the week. Buying a Big Mac everyday for lunch will be 28-30.

>> No.18277080

>>18274797
>instead of sucking off Mussollini,
It is very obvious that this is why you're mad at him and actually because of his poetry lol

>> No.18277097

the beautiful thing about Pound is that his work doesn't give a shit if you understand it or not.
it is what it is
he was what he was
bitch harder next time and maybe an archive will remember you

>> No.18277127

>>18277080
Poets bring beauty into the world fascism is the ugliest thing in existence. Pound is out the door chud.

>> No.18277146

>>18277127
I care more about art than politics so I don't care what artists say politically. I in fact expect most people to have stupid political opinions

>> No.18277167

>>18277146
All art is political if you're not with me you're against me. I don't read nazis simple enough chud.

>> No.18277184

>>18277167
Perhaps if you care more about politics than art and view art through a political lens you should go to /pol/

>> No.18277201

>>18276983
a man who is able to spend a fortune he made off poetry on a literal castle in italy is not a "failed" poet

>> No.18277205

>>18276468
Hart Crane says it himself that if he was never read by Pound he wouldn't have continued writing, even if it was a rejection notice he used it as his symbol of being a poet that he had correspondence with pound at one point

>> No.18277215

>>18277167
yeah im against u tranny

>> No.18277227

>>18276983
Pound was one of the most effective critics against dilettantism in the 20th century, do you have proof of him being one besides your seething?

>> No.18277238

>>18277184
Yeah okay nazi people like me make the world a better place and keep you chuds on target.

>>18277215
Too bad chud we're strong in numbers and you have a containment board back to /pol/

>> No.18277248

Fuck Pound. Long live Bertrand Russell and Harold Bloom

>> No.18277633
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18277633

>>18277167
Yikes, the bait from early was better,
now you're just making a fool of yourself.

>> No.18277860

>>18277238
Unwarranted sense of self importance. Seethe cope dilate, you will never be a real woman. Etc etc etc

>> No.18277877

Poetry has always been and always will be for poofs. Fuck all of it.

>> No.18277907

Wait OP this isn't John Milton, what gives?

>> No.18277921

>>18277633
You just can’t handle the truth

>>18277860
It’s obvious I’m a good person and you’re an incel. Easy enough

>> No.18278043

>>18277907
Holy based. Imagine ruining poetry for 200 years.

>> No.18278736

>>18277127
>>18277167
Fascism was about turning modern politics from boring and gay into a work of art

>> No.18278880

>>18275116
He didn't disregard anything and even in the Cantos he still has passages in traditional meter.
What he did was to throw away baDUMbaDUMbaDUMbaDUM "poetry", i.e., poetry of no rhythmic originality whatsoever, which is arguably even worse than free (actually "free", i.e., ignorant of any rules) verse.

And it was Whiyman who started free verse (not actually free, but still) in English, not Pound. In fact, Pound is way more restrained than Whitman because he puts so much emphasis on musicality.

You are only revealing your ignorance here.
Blaming Pound for Angelou is like blaming the Lumiere brothers (or, rather, Eisenstein - given that the Lumières would be Whitman) for TikTok videos.

>> No.18278884

>>18275116
Also, Updike is good. I don't know about his poetry, but his prose at least is good, quite good in fact. No idea why you put him alongside Angelou.

>> No.18279314

>>18277167
Anti-Pound morons exposed. EXPOSED.

>> No.18280525

>>18279314
I’m right polturd. All of my goodreads community would laugh at you, art is for leftists.

>> No.18281433

>>18274474
you might be right about this but pound would have been absolutely fried if he'd had internet access, even the radio seems like it was too much for him.

>>18274952
yeah mussolini met with him but the only thing il duce ever got out of the poetry was 'lol he imitates a yiddish accent', i feel like pound might have got the idea that the boss was gonna appreciate him as an artist and that never happened

>> No.18281994

>>18278736
art is beautiful fascism is ugly

>> No.18282109

>>18281433
that was not the only thing that happened at the meeting with Mussolini, you forget that access to speak in the radio station was only allowed to high up fascists so an american being able to is startling and proof of Pound's importance to the fascist party as a propagandist

>> No.18282126

>>18274745
>Steve Albini of poetry/literature
Interesting comparison, makes more sense the more I think about it. Both of them certainly had a respect for minimalism and did a lot of cutting out and erasing unnecessary parts when producing for someone else

>> No.18282299

>>18277201
we are not talking about how much it sold, you fucking imbecile. Get the fuck out of here and go read Harry Potter, since it also made author a millionaire

>> No.18282854

If you support fascism or Pound you're anti-art. Art is beautiufl

>> No.18282900

>>18273805
why you don't like T. S. Eliot?

>> No.18283110

>>18282854
Fascism is based as long as its power is directed at your enemies

>> No.18283114

>>18273805
Fucking fascists, man...

>> No.18283124

>>18283110
Nope it's ugly and evil