/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18242927]

How or why is this not seen as idolatry?

[Anonymous No.18242937]

>>18242927
idolatry means that the actual trinket is god.

[Anonymous No.18242939]

I think the thing is that they see that God saw fit to use Jesus' body as a vessel. It was fine for God to be represented by Jesus. I think that's what christians think.

[Anonymous No.18242940]

>>18242927
It is!

I've the very same lacknace bought on amazon for like 10$

[Anonymous No.18242949]

>>18242937
no graven image kind of goes against this reasoning

[Anonymous No.18242952]

>>18242937
this. it’s not that difficult to understand.

[Anonymous No.18242955]

>>18242949
>Unironically trusting the KJB "translation"

Kill yourself. In every other Bible translation it's translated as "idols of other gods"

[Anonymous No.18242981]

>>18242955
I read it from the Jewsih Study Bible but it was a long time ago. According to my memory the authors agreed with the KJV version but I'm too much of a lazy bum to get out of bed and double check now

[Anonymous No.18242993]

>>18242955
>Although no single biblical passage contains a complete definition of idolatry, the subject is addressed in numerous passages, so that idolatry may be summarized as the worship of idols or images; the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols or images; the worship of created things (trees, rocks, animals, astronomical bodies, or another human being); and the use of idols in the worship of God (YHWH Elohim, the God of Israel)

[Anonymous No.18243005]

>>18242927
>It's not idolatry when we do it!

[Anonymous No.18243010]

>>18242993
This

[Anonymous No.18243025]

>>18242927
Idolatry is when you worship something that is not God as if it were God. Jesus is godly therefore it is not idolatrous to view his crucifixion as a symbol of the divine

[Anonymous No.18243026]

nobody worships their fucking jewelry you midwit fedorafucks

[Anonymous No.18243035]

John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

[Anonymous No.18243036]

>>18242927
Tell me, let's say you have a cherished picture of your family. Now answer this question, do you care about the photo itself, as in it's physical self, or do you care about what it represents, in this case your family? Sure you might hold some esteem to the picture itself, but it is vastly overshadowed by your love and appreciation of your family
And beyond that, like a previous anon said, idolatry means that your believe the thing IS God or have some explicit rules like how muslims prohibit ALL graphic images

[Anonymous No.18243039]

>>18242981
Here a take few know: the hebrew translations we have about the OT are actually much, much earlier than the greeks one

Catholic and Orthodx OT comes from the Septuaginta, a greek translation made by 70 Alexandrine jewish sages at the order of the Ptolemaic Pharaon. Hebrew was already a dead spoken tounge by that time, so the Jews who translated it in greek were greek-speaking themselves

The protestant and modern jewish OT instead are based on a medieval translation of the greek septuaginta version by medieval Rabbis who not only didnt knew greek well, but likely had a worse grasp of the ancient hebrew languange compared to the hellenic sages
Jusaism also developed a lof of "heterodox" beliefs in the long centuries between the two versions, and injected some of these in their translations of some passages (ancient kikes werent so against images as medieval kikes, their temples had human-animals hybrids statues for fuck sake)

It's basically if a text originally in english was translated in italian by bilingual experts, and then centuries later it's re-translated from italian to english by non native english /italian speakers. Whick version would you trust more?

[Anonymous No.18243041]

>Physically graven image that is a representation of your sacrificial God vessel

You bet your ass it's fucking idolatry you lying deluded Christcucks.

[Anonymous No.18243044]

>>18243026
Now THIS is idolatry something earthly and corrupt (soda) is used to embody the divine and thereby tarnishes it.

[Anonymous No.18243049]

>>18243025
>it isn't idol worship because my idol is real!
tell that to the muslims or the jews, who both consider you insane to view someone who ate and slept as "godly"

[Anonymous No.18243051]

>>18242993
>>18243010
The ancient temples of the Hebrew faith had litterally golden statues of angels and other animal-men creatures. Try again judaized proties

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDY/Ar.iI No.18243052]

>>18242927


HOW, AND/OR WHY, DO YOU MAKE THIS THREAD, AND NOT RECOGNIZE HOW DUMB YOU ARE?

[Anonymous No.18243060]

>>18243044
This is just garish and vapid
Blasphemous perhaps but not idolatry

[Anonymous No.18243073]

>>18243051
>Proties

Catholicism is the poster child of Christian idolatry you fucking faggot

[Anonymous No.18243088]

>>18243073
Say the kikes workshipper. Go die in the name of your "older brothers", like the evangelicals like to preach

[Anonymous No.18243091]

>>18243051
I can't imagine anyone worshiped any of them. the difference is saying that it is God

[Anonymous No.18243110]

>>18243091
He knows that, he is just saying that having a image of Jesus on a cross like how Catholics and Orthodox do is not idolatry

Funnily enough, copts, caths and orthos (the oldest dominations) all agree it is okay but protestants for some reason have a stick up their arse because of that

[Anonymous No.18243114]

>>18243026
What about saints' relics?

[Anonymous No.18243165]

Iconoclasm is not a personality.

[Anonymous No.18243170]

It’s a human thing, proddies wouldn’t understand it.

[Anonymous No.18243177]

>>18243114
Saints are intercessors
The way it works is how, for example, some people ask other's to pray for them or on their behalf. Catholics and orthodox believe that because saints are well, saints, they can and probably will pray for you even in death.
Relics are believed to help one get a better "material" connection to the saint and can also help a person in other non-christian related ways like relaxing or bringing hope

And beyond that, caths/orthos do not believe that relics have power by themselves. Instead they merely work as a vessel through God (not the saint himself) power can be manifested in some way

[Anonymous No.18243184]

>>18243114
Based positive valuation of hallowed people.

[Anonymous No.18243186]

>>18242927
It's based on Thor's hammer necklaces, christianity is more pagan than it likes to admit

[Anonymous No.18243193]

icons good
idols bad
simple as

[Anonymous No.18243210]

>>18243186
>That religion that was been historically extremely mediterranean-centric and came much before actually stole muh deep whyte master race religion!!! Those darn kike-workshippers stealing my grorious goat-fucking viking shit hut farmers traditional Thor (Disney trademark) neckless, uhhhhhhh makes me soooooooo mad >:(((((((((((((

[Anonymous No.18243223]

>>18242927
Because most Christians believe in feels over reals.
For me the biggest issue is it is blatant Nestorianism because these images are only capable of depicting one of Christ's natures.

[Anonymous No.18243279]

>>18243223
Most people believe in feels over reals

[Anonymous No.18243370]

>>18243049
I'm an atheist, I consider them all insane. I was just playing devil's or rather angel's advocate. And I would imagine that it's up to God to decide what attributes he confers to his temporal avatar (Jesus). There's a mainstream school of Christian theology that views Jesus as a "Hypostatic union" of both Man and the Divine, combining both as one. Because God wished to breathe humanity into Christ as a way to bridge the gap between regular humans and the divinely inspired. Christ's human needs and capacity of suffering are required of him to serve as the redeemer of mankind. He needed to know what it was to be human to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

[Anonymous No.18243389]

>>18243049
>tell that to...
A man being the word of God is insane but a book being the word of God is ok and so is a burning bush, got it. Great /lit/ thread, what book are we discussing?

[Anonymous No.18244507]

>>18242927
Read the Bible.

[Anonymous No.18244577]

>>18242937
>>18242952
No it doesn't.
1. That's clearly not what idolatry means outside of revisionism.
2. No one thinks a material item itself is a god in any religion, this is nonsense. Why define it in terms of something that doesn't exist and never did?

[Anonymous No.18244603]

>>18243389
He's the Word of God or the kalimatullah in the fact that Allah said a word (kalima) "Be!" and he was. It's simply an honorific like Abraham being the khalilulah "Friend of Allah".

"Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he was." 3:49

[Anonymous No.18244608]

>>18243005
You just had to read the first post, retard

[Anonymous No.18244616]

>>18243177
Thank you anon, really appreciate this response. Peace be with you friend.

[Anonymous No.18244628]

>>18243223
*tip*

[Anonymous No.18244651]

>>18244628
Is this supposed to imply that I am an atheist?

[Anonymous No.18244660]

>>18243049
Jesus is God, cuck

[Anonymous No.18244665]

>>18242927
Jesus was incarnate on earth and became a living icon, therefore he is a graven image allowed because he became an image on earth himself.

[Anonymous No.18244668]

>>18244577
The ancient Greeks and Romans believed that there was divine power inherent to the statues and that this was idolatry. Hence them leaving offerings out for statues. The idea was that the statues themselves had power.

Christians believe that the statues are representations only, and have no inherent power. They might occasionally be the vessel of some miracle, as when statues of saints and angels will be made to weep. But this power does not have anything to do with the statue itself.

[Anonymous No.18244670]

>>18244616
Not him but also if you're interested, look up Latria. Latria is the actual worship due for God and God only. This is different from dulia and hyperdulia, which is the veneration (not worship) that we give towards Mary, saints, etc. At least for us Catholics

[Anonymous No.18244689]

How is this not idolatry?

[Anonymous No.18244693]

>be god
>let puny humans crucify you
>mysterious_ways.exe

[Anonymous No.18244701]

>protestants don't realize this was already answered in the early middle ages

[Anonymous No.18244714]

>>18244668
So there should be no problem with using a cross as a dildo?

[Anonymous No.18244735]

>>18244714
Would you spit on the true cross anon? The Ark of the covenant? If they are just meaningless images maybe. They are not God itself, but they should be respected/venerated because they are objects/images that God has selected in his plan.

[Anonymous No.18244738]

>>18244670
Thanks anon.

[Anonymous No.18244752]

>>18244701
It never occurs to any fucking Millennial or Zoomer that their ideas aren't original. They were taught all their lives that they are "gifted," that they are "special," that they are "unique." It never dawns on any of them that, maybe, the questions they have about Christianity are questions people had decades, centuries, even millennia ago, and that those questions have been debated and answered before their father's father's father's father's father's father's father was born.

[Anonymous No.18244773]

>>18244752
Exactly. The hubris of "via moderna" has corrupted us away from "via antiqua."

[Anonymous No.18244961]

Idolatry is something of the old testament. There are only two rules to follow. Stop making Christianity so complicated.

[Anonymous No.18244972]

>>18244961
God didn't change His mind on what He does and doesn't "like". Being more or less "permitted" to do something in the sense that it's not an immediately damnable offense or such doesn't make it totally fine and great.

[Anonymous No.18244995]

If you actually care and aren't just being a retard look into the Iconoclasm in Byzantium in 726AD. A good book is "On the Holy Icons" they even had an Ecumenical council on it to tell people like you to go fuck yourself.

[Anonymous No.18245008]

>>18244972
It was considered graven in the old testament because God had not yet revealed himself,
Deuteronomy 4:15–18:
>“[S]ince you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.”

God became man. It is no longer considered graven to make images of him.

Catholics don't worship statues.
Council of Trent identifies idolatry as: “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

Examples in the bible of making statues or other images showing how it isn't intrinsically wrong:
>Ezekiel 41:17–18
>1 Chr. 28:18–19
>Ex. 25:18–20
>Numbers 21:8-9

[Anonymous No.18245011]

>>18244995
>700 years later
>they had a council
So what year was it that Paul warned that as soon as he was gone, Satan would be coming to mislead the sheep

[Anonymous No.18245019]

>>18242927
Who cares

[Anonymous No.18245026]

>>18245011
anon, the Nicene Creed wasn't made until 300 years later. Arianism wasn't officially condemned 300 years later. Your point?

[Anonymous No.18245051]

>>18245026
My point is that you are a pagan

[Anonymous No.18245064]

>>18243223
>is it is blatant Nestorianism because these images are only capable of depicting one of Christ's natures
Agreed. This was the position of some of the Reformers and is a truth that is conveniently ignored by most Christians.

[Anonymous No.18245090]

>>18245051
Elaborate.

>The intercession and veneration of the saints?
Pic related

>Mariology?
Mary is not a god nor is she worshiped. She is our mother (John 19:25-27) just as Jesus said and blessed among women just as the Holy Spirit has said (Luke 1:40-42).

>"Pagan" Philosophy?
Perennial, and John makes reference to Greek philosophy in literally the first chapter of John.

Clement of Alexandria (150-215)
>There is only one way of truth, but different paths from different places join it, just like tributaries flowing into a perennial river. Solomon adds that there are plenty of righteous people and plenty of routes for them. He explains this as follows: “The paths of the righteous shine like light.”

[Anonymous No.18245152]

>>18245090
>John 19:25-27
>our mother
>this applied to everyone
>and not just John

[Anonymous No.18245181]

>>18245011
Yeah you're probably right I'm sure you have the answer.

[Anonymous No.18245183]

>>18245152
>Theotokos - Mother of God (a denial of this is basically Nestorianism btw)
>not our mother

[Anonymous No.18245196]

I'm Protestant but I agree with the people who practice Marian devotions. It's a good thing to ask Mary to pray for you, and to honor her as the Queen Mother of Christ's Kingdom.

[Anonymous No.18245202]

>>18245196
you're alright

[Anonymous No.18245677]

>>18245196
Finally some protie with good sense

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18245691]

>>18242927
Early Catholic priests couldn’t read very well.

[Pepe G. !UtuTZM4MHU No.18245692]

>>18243052
I AM NOT OP, BUT, ASKING QUESTIONS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PERSON ASKING IS STUPID.

CONSIDER THE WIDE CULTURE/BACKGROUND DIFFERENCES? THE QUESTION COMES OFF GENUINE THEREFORE IT IS VALID.

STUPIDITY IS BEING OVERLY CERTAIN, THIS IS BASIC SOCRATIC THOUGHT, SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW BY NOW.

[Anonymous No.18245697]

>>18244735
I like you Anon

[Anonymous No.18245702]

>>18242937
Don't even waste your time...
>>18242927
LIT -LITERATURE.

[Anonymous No.18245737]

>>18245692
>THE QUESTION COMES OFF GENUINE

No, it doesn’t. He clearly made this thread for the shitstorm. What is genuine though is his inability to understand how it isn’t idolatry.

[Pepe G. !UtuTZM4MHU No.18245765]

>>18245737
If he made it strictly for a shitstorm then he would not have worded the question in a manner that encourages an answer.

>how or why

You’re saying: “His question is to create a shitstorm and because he wants the answer.”

And I am saying he is probably - firstly curious.

[Anonymous No.18245787]

>>18244972
>God didn't change His mind on what He does and doesn't "like".
Jesus was telling some porky pies if that's the case.

[Anonymous No.18245801]

>>18243210
Sit down and breathe, son.
The cross as in the OP didn't originate in the mediterranean.