/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18211875]

Is it just me, or are large sections incomprehensible?

I got a perfect score on the verbal section of the GRE, and have never had too hard a time getting an essential idea of the meaning behind Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Nietzsche, and Decartes (the only philosophers I've read the primary works on). I've also made it through plenty of theology texts, including graduate level texbooks. However, this is on another level.

Some sentences have really great insights, and I feel like I'm following the main thread of what he is saying, but then whole pages and incomprehensible pile ups of clauses.

Are you basically supposed to move from island to island of insight and not worry too much about the in between? Guided I read seem to be overly simplifying what Hegel is saying to a greater degree than I've seen before, so I don't want to rely on them.

[Anonymous No.18211885]

>>18211875
FILTERED

[Anonymous No.18211905]

>>18211875
I scored 99.5th percentile of MCAT reading section and thsi book makes me feel retarded. I can’t follow it

[Anonymous No.18211911]

>>18211875
>I got a perfect score on the verbal section of the GRE

[Anonymous No.18211930]

Everything is important because it's a unity made up of distinct moments. You recognize some moments of which you have a preexisting notion of but others are completely alien to you. You can still get something out of the book by reading this way but you can only understand the whole by understanding the individual parts and their place in relation to everything else.

[Anonymous No.18211933]

>>18211875
>translation
yikes

[Anonymous No.18211939]

>>18211911
OP is just struggling with autism kek

[Anonymous No.18211960]

>>18211933
A lot of Germans read Hegel in English because the German combines more words and uses fewer sentences, making it even more incomprehensible.

Let's not pretend the PoS is well written. Hegel said it was a mess. The dude was basically forced to write it by hand in a week. I don't know why people start with it.

[Anonymous No.18211966]

>>18211933
German version is misleading because of how much the words changed meaning

[Anonymous No.18211974]

just power through, no one reads it to understand it, they read it just so they can say they did

[Anonymous No.18212020]

>>18211875
You have encountered a book above your level for the first time. Read pic related if you haven't already. A text like PS requires an analytical reading. That means reading it more than once and taking extensive notes.
>>18211930
Good advice. Read Hegel like a Hegelian.

[Anonymous No.18212078]

>>18212020
Hegel is a fucking sorcerer, that shit is not going to help.

Just accept that your trip will be as difficult as reading Hermetic esoterica or the Kabbalah.

[Anonymous No.18212423]

>>18211875
I haven't read this in a while but Hegel's main point is the thing itself and for itself and that motion of self-teological recursion is necessary for the whole thing. He does it in the first couple of pages and then builds off of it for the whole book

[Anonymous No.18212424]

>>18212078
>Hegel is a fucking sorcerer
You dumb stupid nigger. Go back to /x/ you faggot. A hermeticist or a thinker that aligns with the hermetic tradition is not a sorcerer.
You're even dumber than OP.

[Anonymous No.18212584]

>>18212424
But nonetheless, Hegel is a sorcerer, charting the paths of meaning and semiotics underlying the Absolute.

[Anonymous No.18212675]

>>18212424
It's a meme you dip

[Anonymous No.18213674]

>>18211966
kek no.
thats just anglo cope.
Hegel is the best for relying mainly on german origin words and not excessively using latin like Kant.

[Anonymous No.18213694]

1600 on the SAT here, it's a tough read

[Anonymous No.18213725]

>ITT retards thinking high standardized test scores means the ability to read Hegel
If you haven't familiarized yourself with Absolute Idealism pre-Hegel and the Post-Kantian developments in Ontology and Epistemology, you will not understand Hegel; even if you score perfectly on the SAT. This isn't a reading exercise, it is a very complex philosophy developed out of a decade of rigorous thinking by Germany's most intelligent and creative individuals.

[Anonymous No.18213787]

>>18213725
What books do you recommend reading before Hegel?

[Anonymous No.18213989]

>>18211875
For me this book condenses the text so as to explain each point as short and precise as possible, but then leaving the comprehension stat empty. If this book was written like Kant it would be around 10 times the size. So what is my recommendation? Read very VERY slowly and then have a reading companion: Sadler's half hour Hegel doesn't go that deep, but it helps with basic comprehension.
t. anon who read a couple of chapters and started getting a grip on it (getting the rhythm of the text).

[Anonymous No.18213995]

>>18212424
I just want to point out that hermetic hegel is a controversial claim and some salt is needed preferably a gram

[Anonymous No.18214005]

>>18212020
This is an extremely dumb post

[Anonymous No.18214010]

>>18211875
Read this OP

[Anonymous No.18214017]

>>18211875
Hegel’a kinda famous for being incomprehensible

[Anonymous No.18214060]

>>18213725
this, anglos and americans always amaze me how culturally naive they are. They approach different traditions trough their own worldview, get filtered and then seethe how incomprehensible it is. You cant just approach different traditions like a nigger ready to salvage whatever suits you.

[Anonymous No.18214062]

>>18211875
Do you think this is better?
https://voca.ro/12V6nkUFew6w

[Anonymous No.18214172]

>>18211875
see picrel 1/3. hes a very hard philosopher, and the preface especially is really hard to understand unless you already understand the rest. I suggest starting with the introduction and going from there, reading plenty of secondary literature and occasionally going back to read parts of the preface. also for the love of god do not use how many good boy points you scored on your tests as a measure for how good you are supposed to be in philosophy.

[Anonymous No.18214180]

>>18214172

[Anonymous No.18214185]

>>18214180

[Anonymous No.18214186]

the preface isn't meant to be easily comprehensible, but regarding everything after that, yes every sentence and word chosen should make sense

[Anonymous No.18214213]

>>18211930
tl;dr: it's over OP. You are out.

[Anonymous No.18214240]

>>18212584
At one point, if you go back in time, all this shit goes back to the absolute. Lao tzu tao te ching, the hermetic philosophy (Hermes Trismegistus), Heraclitus and Parmenides, and finally Hegel.
The way was lost for centuries, and it appears that incels, on an obscure board on the far end of the internet, as well as some isolated thinkers, found the way back.

[Anonymous No.18214395]

>>18214172
>>18214180
>>18214185

At that point you might as well just rely on the quotes in the secondary sources, since you're no longer reading and interrpreting Hegel, but just using his work as a supplement to other writers.

Fukayama famously totally messed up his version of Hegel, because he appears to have relied on much later secondary sources to understand him.

[Anonymous No.18214412]

>>18211875
>>18211875
its a book for retards. hegel was a pseud and claiming to understand him is the pseud's trademark. just ignore hegel, he's not relevant much less coherent.

read Aquinas. questions of perception, mind, body, etc are answered coherently and capably by Catholic philosophers.

[Anonymous No.18214419]

Why do people feel like they HAVE to read big fat philosophical works? POS is not something you decide to read while scratching your balls one day. You have to work trough german idealism and be motivated to seek further answers to the problem of phenomena and noumenon.

[Anonymous No.18214430]

>>18214419
i like you anon. stick around, /lit/ needs people who ask those kinds of questions.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.18214456]

Honestly you’re approaching this wrong, here’s the reading list you need if you want to actually fully understand hegel.

Heraclitus -> Parmenides -> Aristotle -> Plotinus -> St. Augustine -> Scotus -> Spinoza -> Kant -> Fichte (if you want) -> Schelling -> Hegel

And if you want to understand the core hermetic ontological aspect, you also should read some of boehme directly prior to hegel+Hegel’s essay on boehme.

Then when you read hegel you begin his early theological and philosophical writings, his philosophy of spirit, his lectures on the history of Philosophy, then his science of logic (where he breaks down in harsh detail his ontology, which people ignore for some reason but is the actual key to understanding the phenomenology.) then you can read the phenomenology.

[Anonymous No.18214460]

>"his science of logic"
how can a man have an opinion on a science of logic. he's either right or he's not. theories are not useful if they don't produce results and not just more speculation.

>inb4 "maybe philosophy isn't for you kiddo"

[Anonymous No.18214567]

>>18212675
>It's a meme you dip
refer to >>18214010 you faggot

[Anonymous No.18214674]

>>18214460
maybe philosophy isn't for you kiddo

[Anonymous No.18214711]

>>18214460
I won't say "maybe philosophy isn't for you kiddo". I'll outright state that philosophy isn't for you, faggot.

[Anonymous No.18214740]

>>18214456
What is your opinion on Karl Marx?

[Anonymous No.18214825]

>>18214674
>>18214711
I relish the seething of /lit/ards.

[Anonymous No.18214830]

>>18214456
No Eckhart? Normally I see him on the lists with Boehme.

[Anonymous No.18214855]

Hegel was so high IQ he wrapped back around into severe retardation.

[Anonymous No.18214864]

>>18214456
I am way out of my league here but you seem like you know what you're talking about. Wasn't Hegal also inspired by the Hatian slave revolution?

[Anonymous No.18214938]

>>18214855
Plato
>"Wow, deep. Interesting points framed in an engaging dialogue."
Aristotle
>"A bit dry, but makes sense."
Bacon
>"Wow, very cogent. I finally get how and why science works."
Kant
>"Very dry, but he is making excellent points."
Hegel
>"Noooo! WTF are you doing to the fabric of reality you dumb old fuck. I am being reduced to ideas, I am substance! Help, the Absolute is coming and becoming!

[Anonymous No.18214962]

>>18214395
people are gonna have a dumbass reading of Hegel even if they only stick to primary texts.
hes very hard to read and very easy to misinterpret. secondary sources can help but should never replace the primary texts of course.

[Anonymous No.18215104]

>>18212020
If you don't know how to read a book, how are you supposed to read How to Read a Book?

[Anonymous No.18215167]

You have to study in Germany with German professors who specialize in German idealism to understand Hegel. French misunderstood Hegel, British discarded Hegel and Americans are retarded. It’s not something you can read it alone.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.18215220]

>>18214740
Not very high since there’s major flaws in his view of history, which are demonstrated by how much capital changed, I’m also by no means a materialist. There’s better works in marxists after Marx if you’re interested in Marxism.

>>18214830
This is just a bare-minimum of reading really, boehme is the core of his thought. You can obviously read more if you want, but the above would give you all of the context you need in terms of philosophical strands.

>>18214864
Theres claims that his master-slave stuff was based off of his contemplations relating to it but no hard evidence, he does reference Haiti but I doubt it actually had any impact on his thought other than an example of his thought concerning the movements of history.

>>18215167
Or at least read secondary material and read his influences, yeah.

[Anonymous No.18215233]

>>18214938
More like
>Bacon
Mmmm yummmy

[Anonymous No.18215592]

I'll copy paste what I said to another anon in another thread:

>How do I get into Hegel?
The more philosophy I read, the less I know how to answer to questions like these. Lately I have started reading lots of Meister Eckhart and lots of Renaissance philosophy (mostly Cusanus, Bruno, Boehme, Pico della Mirandola and Ficino) and now I am fully convinced that without these authors large swathes of Hegel's system are unintelligible. I had the same experience in the past, when I first got familiar with post-Kantian minor philosophers (Reinhold, Herder, Schiller, Jacobi, Humboldt, etc), when I got more familiar with Schellingian philosophy of nature, and when I got more familiar with medio- and neo-platonism. I wonder if it'll happen again when I'll get more familiar with scholastic philosophy. I'm getting the impression that to have a good grasp of Hegel's two major works (PoS and SoL) one has to have an EXCELLENT grasp on most of the history of philosophy, and that Hegel wrote those books expecting his readers to be already knowledgeable on these regards. Basically, those are books written for erudites.
>Should I start with his lectures, are those easier?
Definitely. Those are the books that made Hegel famous. They're surprisingly accessible, some of them can even be read by bright high schoolers. The easier ones are by far the Lectures on Aesthetics, on the Philosophy of History, and on the History of Philosophy, in this order (avoid for now the lectures on Philosophy of Religion and on Philosophy of Right). The prefaces and introductions are usually the hardest sections (since they concern methodology, and other very abstract philosophical issues), so don't get too discouraged if you're having trouble deciphering them: as soon as Hegel will start talking about concrete examples I'm sure you'll be able to follow him, and you'll probably find his various takes interesting and witty (or at least, this was the average reception of his lectures).

[Anonymous No.18216109]

>>18215220
>This is just a bare-minimum of reading really, boehme is the core of his thought. You can obviously read more if you want, but the above would give you all of the context you need in terms of philosophical strands
Have you read him? If so, is it an easy read? I've been told that there are many alchemic and esoteric references in his books, and I know nothing about that stuff

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.18216121]

>>18216109
Yes, he’s manageable if you read him in the proper order.

Clavis, Threefold Life, The Aurora, Questions Concerning the Soul, Theosophical Theses, Mysterium Magnum In that order, however just Clavis and threefold life will explain the basis of alchemy to you largely.

[Anonymous No.18216159]

>>18216121
Thank you a lot, I'll start reading these as soon as I'll be done with Cusanus and Meister Eckhart

[Anonymous No.18216164]

>>18214460
it's not an opinion on a science of logic, it is itself a science of logic.
>it is mere speculation
yes.
philosophy is by its nature not useful. it is what overcomes us. it is untimely and viral.

[Anonymous No.18216437]

>>18211875
OP, its time to come to terms with the fact you've been filtered

[Anonymous No.18216512]

>>18212020
Retarded
>>18211875
Use a dictionary, you got institutionalized by something that isn't real. Probably why your score is so high, it's inversely proportional to your skill as a philosopher

[Anonymous No.18216517]

>>18214017
This is brainlet Anglo cope
If you are autistic he isn't hard to read
see >>18213674

[Anonymous No.18216539]

>>18215592
>some of them can even be read by bright high schoolers.
>muh brain gets bigger the older I get cope

[Anonymous No.18216585]

Why read Hegel though? What do I gain from it? Is his thought really that significant?

[Anonymous No.18216590]

>>18211875
>Is it just me, or are large sections incomprehensible?
The translation is atrocious. You can't understand Hegel through translation. Learn German. But also don't learn German. Learn French and read more poetry, less philos*phy.

[Anonymous No.18216603]

>>18214938
more like yummm plato, I love dough

[Anonymous No.18217992]

Daily reminder that the Phenomenology is the only hard and obscure book written by Hegel. Daily reminder that the Science of Logic is not hard at all (it's just long)

[Anonymous No.18218301]

See Schopenhauer's criticisms of Hagel

[Anonymous No.18218326]

Hegel was a retarded G*rmoid nigger.
>inb4 filtered

[Anonymous No.18218329]

I'm fairly new to philosophy and I randomly encountered this book on the internet and decided to buy it. What the fuck was I thinking?
English isn't even my native language. This book makes my brain melt.

[Anonymous No.18218394]

>>18218329
just start fresh and buy grube's 5 platonic dialogues

[Anonymous No.18219024]

>>18214456
>>18215592
>actual advice instead of needless shit flinging and ego stroking
God bless, anons.

[Anonymous No.18219138]

bump

[Anonymous No.18219145]

I once got an A+++ in penmanship in the first grade. That's right cunts, triple pluses.

[Anonymous No.18219349]

>>18211875
Honestly speaking, books that are hard to follow should be drowned or forgotten once replaced by a superior summarization. Concepts should flow simply and clearly for those new to them.

I don't understand the humanities obsession with primary texts, you know how often primary texts in the field of math and physics get dropped? All the time. For good reason, the scientist or mathematician who came up with something is remembered, but they are almost always dogshit at explaining their thoughts. It's why textbooks exist and have always existed. Hell one of the earliest and most foundational texts in mathematics, Euclid's Elements, is literally a math textbook that explained things up to that point so well, that the Greeks burned and threw out everything before it.

Anyway, I guess my point is that Hegel is probably a dogshit writer with great thoughts. Read a text on his work by someone with a more concise flow.

[Anonymous No.18219350]

>>18214938
Dude recreated fucking logic because what we usually use as logic isn't based on the correct views of reality. It truly is the language of gods.

>>18215233
kek

[Anonymous No.18219389]

I'm a licenced attorney. My entire job is dependent upon reading archaic clause based texts, and even I have to basically watch half hour hegel to understand what the fuck is going on.

It's not an issue of comprehension, it's an issue of context. Most people haven't read all the works before him that make it make more sense.

[Anonymous No.18219448]

>>18211875

You actually have to change how you are reading in order to understand Hegel. Many have no sense of the dialectic, but unfortunately this cannot be taught, it must be learned by throwing yourself against the text.

[Anonymous No.18219490]

>>18219448>>18218329
>>18215592
>>18215167

>>18219389
The problem is that those thinkers are pure product of the secular humanism, hyped only by atheists, like the subhumans Hegel, Kant, Heidegger, Adorno, Habermas, Arendt, Husserl, Popper, Strauss, Weisse, Carnap, Engels, marx,Feuerbach, Frege, Fitche, [all germans, weird huh? germans can't think, they suck at wars so they fell back on ''''''''''philosophy'''''' who travestied the greek philosophy which was lived, and they turned it into mental masturbation in sterile universities, in order to get a cushy life like a generic girl gets one from her orbiters]. Germans thinkers are vaginas who think they think.

[Anonymous No.18219584]

>>18219490
And not a single argument is made.

[Anonymous No.18219600]

>>18219448
Wait, how do I learn it?

[Anonymous No.18219601]

>>18213694
i got a perfect score on my Mad Math Minute yesterday, it wasn’t that bad

[Anonymous No.18219626]

>>18219601
I got 108 iq score from an online test that gave me a virus. I understood it perfectly

[Anonymous No.18219634]

>>18219601
I filled out a madlib once and Hegel makes perfect sense.

[Anonymous No.18219661]

>>18214674
>>18214711
dumb retards who don't know the definition of "science" or "logic"

[Anonymous No.18219675]

>>18219349
to be really quite perfectly honest with you anon, Hegel deserves to be forgotten. he is not useful. he is a protestant heretic and his ideas appeal mostly to intellectual vanity.

read scripture, read Catholic philosophers, and avoid the obfuscatory nonsense of pr*testants.

[Anonymous No.18219686]

>>18219675
Ironic considering thinkers like Hegel could rescue Western religion from its irrelevance. I don't know why you think believing in secularism + sexual interdiction is better than actually lifting the spirit.

[Anonymous No.18219705]

>>18219686
>irrelevance
anon i dont know who you mean by "Western religion" but you certainly must be referring to pr*testants and their state-cults. church of england, church of sweden and the like. they are not an actual church, and have no authority.

[Anonymous No.18219714]

>>18219705
oh you're a larper nevermind

[Anonymous No.18219719]

>>18219714
could you elaborate on what you claimed about Hegel, or were you only pretending at wisdom.

[Anonymous No.18219739]

>>18219714
Why are you so shocked? Everyone here is larping. Even you. /lit/ is the board of larping.

[Anonymous No.18219767]

>>18219719
I've read thinkers that many Western Christians claim to despise and been surprised that they have developed Christian thought with much better utility and insight than the relative navel gazing of church authorities (this includes Catholicism). I'm thinking specifically of Benjamin's Language of Man, Derrida's Gift of Death, and of course Phenomenology of the Spirit, along with other heterodox movements like Antinomianism. Why is this? Why am I reading genuinely insightful explications of Christian thought from Jews and Idealists who are considered crypto (if not outright, in Benjamin's case) Marxists? The contradiction I feel exists with Christianity is that it has frozen itself at a point of intellectual development for its congregation where they remain in a state of laity and obedience to authority despite the fact that religion ought to give tools of education and edification that makes that authority redundant. Ideally the man who passes through the Church would be saved, and saved in such a way that he is master of himself and not just a flagellate hoping that something outside of his corporeal life will be worthwhile. The great irony right now for the Western Christian is he is attached to tradition and hates secularism, not realizing what he worships is secularism and has all its supposed virtues: security, dignity of the individual, comity, concern for one's neighbor, redemption for the dissolute, enfranchisement of the weak and needy, etc. It should come as no surprise then that secular humanism holds sway over traditional Christianity, as it too professes (at the very least) those virtues but without the reliance on sexual psychosis or strict hierarchy. Ideally religion would produce heroes from its adherents, and if one's goal were to proselytize one would only need to display mastery over the parts of himself that lead to his own suffering (sin), and his example would win over the hearts and minds of his fellow man. But it doesn't, the most devout Christians are not the most heroic or virtuous; they are the most fearful, the most sanitized, and the most Millenarian. Were Christianity to justify its appurtenances, and break with tradition to tailor its prescriptions to utility and focus on collective good and justifiable abstemiousness I think it could be very successful, and I think the only people who push that conception where it needs to go are thinkers like Hegel. Were the church remedied of its chief virtues being protection from harm (which it cannot guarantee) and blind obedience (for which the secularly educated feel personal disdain) nothing would stop the religious champion from leading his fellow man out of the cave.

[Anonymous No.18219773]

>>18219767
tldr

[Anonymous No.18219780]

>>18219767
okay tldr was a joke and at least i laughed at it but having read your post now i recognize that you're a retard who's high off sniffing his own asshole. you don't actually believe in God, or you wouldn't be slanging this "man can save himself" and "collective good (social justice) is the only justice was can have" nonsense garbage. kys.

[Anonymous No.18219784]

>>18219780
This is why you ought to read Hegel. He takes the concept of God very seriously.

[Anonymous No.18219788]

okay tldr was a joke and at least i laughed at it but having read your post now i recognize that you're a retard who's high off sniffing his own asshole. you don't actually believe in God, or you wouldn't be slanging this "man can save himself" and vague "collective good (social justice) is the only justice was can have" nonsense garbage. dont kys my man but desu stop pretending at being a theologian. if you actually believed in God you would know stupid things like human-conceived justice are folly. retard.

[Anonymous No.18219793]

>>18219784
>>18219784
>he doesn't deny not believing in God
filtered. enjoy the fires my man.

[Anonymous No.18219943]

>>18219661
maybe philosophy isn't for you kiddo

[Anonymous No.18219965]

>>18219490
u mad bro

[Anonymous No.18219972]

>>18211875
Read Kojeve

[Anonymous No.18220092]

>>18219972
>all that hegel
>just to say that we're going to turn into two seperate races—inhuman demigods ruling animalistic coomers

Don't read Kojeve for an understanding of Hegel.

[Anonymous No.18220094]

>>18211875
read Schopenhauer instead

[Anonymous No.18220149]

>>18220092
is that really what kojeve says

why are philosophers such mundane, obvious, fucking retard materialist brainlets

[Anonymous No.18220309]

>>18220149
He uses Hegel to build off of Nikolai Fedorov, so yeah, kinda

[Anonymous No.18220363]

>>18217992
I don't disagree here. Hegel is a generally reasonable writer outside of the PoS, but it's just so fucking ridiculous to read that it taints my views of everything else he's done.

[Anonymous No.18220413]

>I got a perfect score on the verbal section of the GRE
bait

[Anonymous No.18220646]

>>18211875
I think it's just a nightmare to translate, I'm german and it's not all that confusing compared to for example Heidegger or Leibniz, but I would have no idea how to translate a lot of it. If you have a decent grasp on Plato, Spinoza and Kant but still have a hard time reading it than it's for sure down to the translation

[Anonymous No.18221884]

>>18211875
It's a really badly written book. Like, Hegel literally was pumping out pages the night they were due to the printer. There's a reason that there have been several foundational translations: it's not very coherent and needs to be pieced together by scholars of the work.

[Anonymous No.18222465]

>>18218394
Thanks for the recommendation, just ordered it.