Is the Holocaust Unique?

[Anonymous No.18159098]

Anyone has read this book? I am fascinated on the majority of the perspectives here, both positvely and negative. I really recommend it, to see many positions.

[Anonymous No.18159152]

My position is that it is unique in being the only fake genocide whose cultural status has been so elevated you cannot even touch it. It's a sacred cow.
Feel free to question the minutiae of Native American genocide, Holodomor, etc, but the Shoah? No-ah way, dude!

[Anonymous No.18159168]

>>18159098
>>18159152
https://archive.org/details/ThomasDaltonDebatingTheHolocaust

[Anonymous No.18159176]

>>18159152
But you can question the minutiae of the Holocaust. Most Holocaust denial I've seen though is just uninformed bad faith arguments that are easily dispensed with.

[Anonymous No.18159179]

>>18159152
>the minutiae of Native American genocide,
You get cancelled for doing that.

[Anonymous No.18159189]

>>18159176
>it's not happening
>but it's happening and you're a bad person for noticing that it's happening
>and it's happening and you're a bad person for not wanting it to happen
It's all so tiresome.

[Anonymous No.18159200]

>>18159176
>But you can question the minutiae of the Holocaust.
You may want to read this >>18159168

[Anonymous No.18159202]

>>18159176
>Most Holocaust denial I've seen though is just uninformed bad faith arguments that are easily dispensed with.
but we can at least agree their heart is in the right place, right?

[Anonymous No.18159204]

>>18159189
>seriously suggesting that people shouldn't be jailed for Holocaust Denial
Go back to /pol/.

[Anonymous No.18159205]

>>18159189
Faggot. I don't like anti-Holocaust denial laws any more than you do, and I hate the moralising liberal taboos surrounding it. Doesn't change the fact that Holocaust denial is at the intellectual bottom of the barrel, not because of anything intrinsic about the idea of denying a Jewish genocide, but just because their arguments are flawed and their methods of arguing plainly sophistic. Holocaust deniers are, ironically, very Jewish

[Anonymous No.18159216]

>>18159204
But who decides what denial is? Tyrannical retard.
>>18159205
Read this >>18159168. The arguments are much better than most think.

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18159231]

>>18159098
It’s unique for having its own name and that seems weird to me. Why does it get a different name?

>>18159152
>Cuz it’s a sacred cow it’s fake!!
The idea that it never happened (and that it should have, is what the deniers always say) is the problem. Numbers have been monkeyed with since more than jews were killed in it, but to question that it happened or not is ridiculous

[Anonymous No.18159258]

>>18159152
This is incorrect. Even at a liberal university, the Germanic studies professor who teaches the course on the Holocaust will talk with me about the number of dead, the timeline, etc. The only thing he has a red line on is total denial.

[Anonymous No.18159264]

>>18159231
>Why does it get a different name?
Because jews
>to question that it happened or not is ridiculous
The issue is that even when you argue about details you get branded a denier and the conversation is stifled.

[Anonymous No.18159266]

>>18159231
>Numbers have been monkeyed with since more than jews were killed in it
This is incorrect, the "5 million gentiles" number is an intentional fiction created to give gentiles a reason to support Jewish Power, but not enough to actually overshadow the "Jewish" angle of Jewish Power.

[Anonymous No.18159269]

>>18159258
What would he think of the arguments in this book? >>18159168

[Anonymous No.18159287]

>>18159176
>Most Holocaust denial I've seen though is just uninformed bad faith arguments
Everything you don't like is a bad faith argument. That's why they're so easy for you to uncover. Midwit.
>>18159179
For discussing the details of it? Not really. I've had good discussions on the scope & intent of it. You cannot do that with the H*locaust.

[Anonymous No.18159292]

>>18159098
>>18159152
does the book mention the jewish genocide of christians in armenia and russia?

[Anonymous No.18159302]

>>18159231
“Nazism [was] a form of colonization of the
white man by the white man, a ‘shock in return’ to
the European colonizers”

Europe had never experienced what it did all over the world. That is why it receives a different name.

[Anonymous No.18159310]

>>18159202
>>18159204
can someone please explain to me what is a citation of Deuteronomy 25:17-19 doing on a holocaust monumen in europe?
https://denhaag.com/en/jewish-monument-the-hague

[Anonymous No.18159317]

>>18159302
That makes no sense. If you follow that logic, Europe has more often "colonized" Europe than any other part of the world.
Second, you conflate the people with the governments. Disingenuous retard.

[Anonymous No.18159318]

>>18159231
>but to question that it happened or not is ridiculous
It didn't happen insofar as it was an intentional plan to eradicate the Jews. What DID happen was that a handful of Jews died in internment camps from disease or starvation (in the latter half of the war due to supply disruption). To this day, nobody has produced a Fuhrer letter indicating anything close to what we know as the 'Holocaust'.

[Anonymous No.18159336]

>>18159317
Hey, I didn't write it. But colonialism as it is understood, was never practiced in Europe as it had been in the Third World, except for Nazism. I don't think the European empires came even close to approximating colonial practices in North America, Africa, and Asia, with the exception of Nazism.

[Anonymous No.18159359]

>>18159336
Again, that makes no sense. How is nazism more similar to colonialism than any of the old empires were? Or Napoleon? That's just very selective, subjective reasoning.
Throughout all of its history, European peoples have "colonized" other European peoples more than any other peoples.

[Anonymous No.18159371]

>>18159168
>>18159216
Personally I agree in a Norman Finkelstein, non-conspiratorial sense that a "Holocaust industry" exists which benefits mainly Jewish interests, but I find it odd in this preface that, despite trying to portray himself as objective and impartial academic who is looking at a historical debate, he can't help but talk about Holocaust education in this way:
>'This is not by accident. It is a deliberate plan, to make sure we "never forget."
Isn't this just bad optics? It makes every normie and establishment reader switch off immediately. Even as someone who isn't superstitious about far-right or anti-Semitic rhetoric, it makes me roll my eyes. There is of course a bit of a double standard in that people writing within the traditions of acceptable belief systems are permitted to indulge in insinuation like this. But when you're presenting something extremely taboo and heterodox, it seems like the mark of an undisciplined mind to not be able to restrain yourself even for a second from sounding like you're on Stormfront.
>But as the masked man once said, ideas are bulletproof
Fucking hell lol. I just want one Holocaust denial book that seems like it was written by a serious scholar. Why are they all fucking weird and amateur. Anyway, I know I'm indulging in a fallacy (I'm not looking at the arguments of the book -- too big of a task right now but something I might do later -- but making bigoted judgements based on the tone of its preface). But I do feel second hand embarrassment. I would hate to be using this text to defend my worldview. Isn't there something less shitty? Perhaps the French revisionist writers are better. At least their credentials are more impressive: like one of them being an actual Holocaust survivor himself.
>>18159318
>To this day, nobody has produced a Fuhrer letter indicating anything close to what we know as the 'Holocaust'.
What does this prove? That Hitler perhaps wasn't aware of what the rest of his state apparatus was doing, or that he didn't approve of it? This is perhaps possible, but it is a hard argument to make, and it doesn't disprove the Holocaust. Doesn't Goebbels make reference to Hitler's intentions in his diaries? These are the sort of extreme and specific standards of evidence that are not applied to most historical events but which Holocaust deniers insist MUST apply to the Holocaust or else it is 100% a fabrication.

[Anonymous No.18159388]

>>18159371
>
Isn't this just bad optics? It makes every normie and establishment reader switch off immediately. Even as someone who isn't superstitious about far-right or anti-Semitic rhetoric, it makes me roll my eyes.
That's on you. It just shows the brainwashing has worked. Read the arguments instead of going "oh the style doesn't tickle my fancy."
>I just want one Holocaust denial book that seems like it was written by a serious scholar.
This is. These are serious scholars.
>Anyway, I know I'm indulging in a fallacy (I'm not looking at the arguments of the book -- too big of a task right now but something I might do later -- but making bigoted judgements based on the tone of its preface).
There you go. The fact that you're more concerned with the form than the substance should tell you more than enough.

[Anonymous No.18159392]

>>18159168
>>18159216
>The figure of 'six million' has little basis in fact. This number, which theoretically could only have been known after the war, actually traces back three decades before.
Hmmm...

[Anonymous No.18159394]

>>18159371
Imagine me saying "Oh this mainstream Holocaust scholar again warns about nazi practices and moralizes against the evil European, therefore I won't take the arguments seriously." Really?

[Anonymous No.18159399]

>>18159359
There is a vast difference between a feudal relationship and a metropole-colony relationship. Napoleon may have conquered Europe, but was he enslaving Europeans? Did he decimate the German population and fill the Holy Roman Empire with French people? No, they're still Germans, and no Europeans were enslaved. Do you see now how imperialism on continental Europe was vastly different from colonialism?

[Anonymous No.18159408]

>>18159392
>unreadable pol infographic
>there's less references therefore it's meaningless
Are you retarded or just a shill?

[Anonymous No.18159417]

>>18159392
take your meds schizo

[Anonymous No.18159419]

>>18159399
No, you still haven't made any point. If we follow your line of reasoning than communism was an even greater colonizing force than nazism.
>There is a vast difference between a feudal relationship and a metropole-colony relationship.
That depends where you draw the line which seems to be arbitrary.
>was he enslaving Europeans?
>no Europeans were enslaved.
You really need to read up on your European history before making such wild claims buddy.
>Do you see now how imperialism on continental Europe was vastly different from colonialism?
No.

[Anonymous No.18159422]

>>18159371
>That Hitler perhaps wasn't aware of what the rest of his state apparatus was doing, or that he didn't approve of it?
What the fuck does that even mean? There was no state apparatus nor state-approved mass killings. There’s no evidence for you to claim otherwise.

[Anonymous No.18159430]

>>18159388
>>18159394
It just annoys me that the author's political beliefs are so naked and obvious in the text (despite the fact that he's trying to give off an image of respectable impartiality) that it almost makes me want to become a Holocaust denier just so I can write a decent defence of it. I think your standards are low if you think that all heterodox or taboo arguments have to sound like low IQ slop. It's like handing someone one of those horrid American Protestant pop apologetic texts to convince them God exists. Of course they're gonna be like "fuck, this looks like garbage." Where is the Aquinas of Holocaust denial?
>>18159422
Wasn't that Irving's argument for a while? That the Holocaust happened but Hitler wasn't aware of it.

[Anonymous No.18159433]

>>18159302
>Nazism [was] a form of colonization of the white man by the white man, a ‘shock in return’ to the European colonizers
top kek who comes up with this shit

[Anonymous No.18159437]

>>18159310
Deuteronomy 25:17-19
King James Version

17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.
19 Therefore it shall be, when the Lord thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

[Anonymous No.18159448]

>>18159430
Yet you still haven't responded to any of the arguments but continue to cry over the fact that you don't like the form.
>it almost makes me want to become a Holocaust denier just so I can write a decent defence of it
Please, go right ahead. You may think I agree with everything the author says, I really don't agree with most of his alternative takes. I just think he points out many fallacies in the mainstream narrative and shows that instead of being able to have a normal debate, they are silenced or even locked up.

[Anonymous No.18159451]

>>18159430
>Wasn't that Irving's argument for a while? That the Holocaust happened but Hitler wasn't aware of it.
I haven’t read Irving’s books. All I know is that nobody can produce evidence of a state-approved holocaust; it’s always he said she said and appealing to emotions.

[Anonymous No.18159454]

>>18159430
>It just annoys me that the author's political beliefs are so naked and obvious in the text (despite the fact that he's trying to give off an image of respectable impartiality) t
Also like I said here >>18159394 that goes both ways. I don't think I've read anything impartial on the subject yet.

[Anonymous No.18159461]

>>18159419
Communism actually proves my point. The quote talks about colonization of whites by whites. Do you think white (Anglo-Saxon Protestant) Europe gives a shit about dirty old Slavs? If you open any history book, you'd know that Eastern Europe was seen as the "Oriental" side of Europe, if even European at all. Why do you think Stalin isn't nearly as hated as Hitler? Every communist larper in university still wishes they could suck Stalin's cock.

>That depends where you draw the line which seems to be arbitrary.
Let me be more clear. Nazism was the first instance of settler colonialism and genocide in modern Europe. Thus it was seen as particularly revolting. However, the same practices, if not worse practices, were done all over the Third World. I'm not an expert on Napoleon, but are you saying he practiced settler colonialism?

[Anonymous No.18159481]

The holocaust happened, but was accidental. What really occurred was Jews had to do physical labor for the first time since Exodus, this resulted in 7 million deaths.

[Anonymous No.18159488]

>>18159448
>Yet you still haven't responded to any of the arguments
That would require me to read an entire book. This is like me posting an archive.org link to some Holocaust history book and asking someone on an anonymous image board to debunk it. I'm more despairing about the quality of the publication. It doesn't bode well for the content of the book. It reminds me of shitty apologetics that seem almost designed to PUT PEOPLE OFF Christianity. But then of course there are thoughtful, disciplined, intelligent writers in that tradition too. I am wondering if that is the case for Holocaust revisionism. There's some faggy anon who keeps posting an archive.org link to a book by some far-right Greek politician denying the existence of homosexuality in Greece, which might seem compelling if you had never read or studied the era at all. It just seems like the same type of thing. This is the kind of snap judgement people will make in this imageboard setting. Think of it as more of a PR criticism than anything else. Holocaust revisionists need better optics...
>>18159394
>>18159454
That is a fair point but my main problem is not with the comments themselves (I even said in my original post that there is hypocrisy here, and that I agree with some of his comments). The problem is with the author's lack of discipline that he can't restrain himself from putting people off his own arguments by signalling his political affiliations, presumably involuntarily (since he supposedly also wants to be taken as impartial).

[Anonymous No.18159490]

>>18159371
>These are the sort of extreme and specific standards of evidence that are not applied to most historical events but which Holocaust deniers insist MUST apply to the Holocaust or else it is 100% a fabrication.
We have period German documents about things as meaningless as the Tiger I's seat color. How is it that people can simultaneously recognize the fastidiousness of German bookkeeping and then say that the so-called 'Holocaust' happened naturally and with essentially zero top-level documentation? Boggles the mind.

[Anonymous No.18159496]

>>18159461
>If you open any history book, you'd know that Eastern Europe was seen as the "Oriental" side of Europe, if even European at all.
What are some history books like this?

[Anonymous No.18159504]

>>18159461
Honestly where do you get these outlandish ideas? This is some next level gobbledygook and your argument makes no sense.
>The quote talks about colonization of whites by whites.
Which has been done throughout the entirety of Europe from the second millenium BC right up until modern times.
> Do you think white (Anglo-Saxon Protestant) Europe gives a shit about dirty old Slavs? If you open any history book, you'd know that Eastern Europe was seen as the "Oriental" side of Europe, if even European at all.
Sure, that's western bias. But I'm fairly certain a similar line of thought goes the other way round. That proves nothing.
>Why do you think Stalin isn't nearly as hated as Hitler? Every communist larper in university still wishes they could suck Stalin's cock.
Because of who writes the history books.
>Nazism was the first instance of settler colonialism and genocide in modern Europe. Thus it was seen as particularly revolting.
If you only go by modern Europe perhaps (even then I beg to differ given what happened with the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Ottoman Empire), but that dismisses the entire rest of Europe's history.
>I'm not an expert on Napoleon, but are you saying he practiced settler colonialism?
No, but you didn't specify it as such before. Like I said, where you draw the line is very arbitrary and you just want to justify your particular frame.

[Anonymous No.18159512]

The greatest Holocaust ever is the Holocaust of souls, which has been occurring endlessly since the creation of the Internet.

[Anonymous No.18159517]

>>18159490
What is the Wannsee conference? Why has no top ranking Nazi ever denied the Holocaust?

[Anonymous No.18159537]

>>18159488
>Think of it as more of a PR criticism than anything else. Holocaust revisionists need better optics...
Fair enough, although given the subject I don't think good optics can ever be achieved. From what I've read the authors don't seem to be nefarious, just convinced of their own side like anyone. I imagine they'd be quite bitter for being repeatedly locked up and losing their livelyhoods for simply expressing an opinion. I don't blame them.
>The problem is with the author's lack of discipline that he can't restrain himself from putting people off his own arguments by signalling his political affiliations, presumably involuntarily (since he supposedly also wants to be taken as impartial).
And as I said the same happens the other way round except that that side is the one that's publicly accepted and entrenched in academia/education. This is not worse than most of what the other side does, so I really don't think it's fair to go at it like this.

[Anonymous No.18159547]

I don't care about the veracity of the Holocaust's legitimacy. However, I am forever worried about anyone facing imprisonment over questioning it.

[Anonymous No.18159553]

>>18159517
Only a handful have actually confirmed it, and those were not top ranking, and the ones that did was tortured. You're standing on shaky ground right there.

[Anonymous No.18159555]

>>18159537
Yeah fair enough. Also I don't wanna embarrass you anon but do you post about anime on reddit

[Anonymous No.18159565]

>>18159204
bad bait

[Anonymous No.18159566]

>>18159555
What?

[Anonymous No.18159573]

>>18159566
I was looking into the book and found this guy posting it on reddit. he's online right now.
https://www.reddit.com/user/WiseInvesting19/

[Anonymous No.18159594]

>>18159573
Lmao no, arguing about topics such as these on reddit would be like tilting against windmills. You do understand there's quite a sizeable audience for these books right? I'm sure there's a few nutjobs among them.

[Anonymous No.18159604]

>>18159504
Ottoman empire was certainly an example of settler colonialism, but please don't try to say they were Europeans. They ruled Europeans, yes, but they could never be Europeans.

>If you only go by modern Europe perhaps (even then I beg to differ given what happened with the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Ottoman Empire), but that dismisses the entire rest of Europe's history.
We're talking about white on white colonialism, so it makes some sense to talk about modern Europe. If you go too far back, you see that the "white" identity hasn't been constructed yet. People didn't even have a sense of nationality until well into the early modern period.

>Like I said, where you draw the line is very arbitrary and you just want to justify your particular frame.
How is it arbitrary? If there are instances of colonialism in modern Europe on the same level of Spain in the New World or Britain and France in North America, that somehow didn't get the same reaction as Hitler, then I am certainly wrong.

[Anonymous No.18159614]

>>18159594
I was just checking ;)

[Anonymous No.18159620]

>>18159496
Books on early modern Europe. They were culturally distinct, Orthodox Christian, associated with "Tatars," etc

[Anonymous No.18159643]

>>18159604
>Ottoman empire was certainly an example of settler colonialism, but please don't try to say they were Europeans. They ruled Europeans, yes, but they could never be Europeans.
Ottomans are overwhelmingly genetically indistinguishable from Greeks. Unless you mean because of the religion, then by that measure Albanians and Bosnians aren't European either. What is wrong with you?
And you forget that the AH Empire and HRE and Russians and Prussians did not much different compared to the Ottomans.
>If you go too far back, you see that the "white" identity hasn't been constructed yet. People didn't even have a sense of nationality until well into the early modern period.
I hate this disingenuous argument. The people had white skins, therefore they were white, and they enslaved eachother.
In that case your argument collapses entirely since nazi Germans saw themselves as Germans/Aryans, not whites.
>How is it arbitrary?
Who decides where the line is drawn? The only difference is that most of the rest of Europe was mostly on the same level of cultural and material development as the "colonizers" otherwise the exact same would have happened as in the New World.
>didn't get the same reaction as Hitler
The reaction says nothing. You clearly disregard how it is manufactured.
> I am certainly wrong.
You certainly are.

[Anonymous No.18159649]

>>18159517
>What is the Wannsee conference?
deboonked.

[Anonymous No.18159654]

>>18159168
What do you think of these refutations anon?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2009/05/old-herrings-in-new-can-thomas-daltons.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2009/05/discussion-with-michael-santomauro-and.html

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=163598

[Anonymous No.18159655]

>>18159614
Great, now check out the arguments put forth in the book. I don't expect you to agree but I'm sure you'll see how the current status quo is not nearly correct either.

[Anonymous No.18159677]

>>18159654
I'll read it in depth later but from what I glanced it seems like mostly ad homs and semantic arguments instead of going into the actual evidence put forth, but I could be wrong.

[Anonymous No.18159681]

>>18159643
>Who decides where the line is drawn?
Nobody is drawing the lines, the lines exist. These practices were done outside of Europe, and then done in Europe by Hitler. You still haven't given another example of settler colonialism happening in modern Europe.

In any case, your arguments are getting emotional, so think whatever you want.

[Anonymous No.18159690]

>>18159677
As someone who is not holocaust denier I too find the tone annoying but there do seem to be serious arguments there.

[Anonymous No.18159705]

colonialism is a meme

[Anonymous No.18159709]

>>18159681
>Nobody is drawing the lines, the lines exist.
Disingenuous.
>These practices were done outside of Europe, and then done in Europe by Hitler.
And before that they were done inside Europe. And after Hitler too. You have no argument.
> You still haven't given another example of settler colonialism happening in modern Europe.
1. The discussion started about colonialism, you later added the modifier settler in front of it.
2. I have, can you read? HRE, Austria-Hungary, Russian Empire, Ottoman Empire.
>In any case, your arguments are getting emotional, so think whatever you want.
Great way of not responding to my refutations of your weak claims, faggot.

[Anonymous No.18159738]

>>18159690
Alright I'll have a look tonight. And just to make it clear I'm not a holocaust denier, you could call me a skepticist. I don't accept many of the alternative hypotheses put forth by Dalton & co but I agree with their overall assessment of the mainstream narrative standing on very shaky ground.

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18159949]

>>18159264
End capitalism.

>>18159266
Disingenuous post.

>>18159302
Nonsense.

>>18159318
Planed or not is irrelevant, a “handful”? Another dip response.

[Anonymous No.18160104]

>>18159949
peepee poopoo

[Anonymous No.18160157]

>>18159681
>You still haven't given another example of settler colonialism happening in modern Europe
Isn't this literally what is happening in Ukraine/Crimea?

[Anonymous No.18160196]

>>18160157
>russians moving to russia
yep definitely that's the same thing

[Anonymous No.18160207]

>>18160196
>Germans moving into Eastern Germany
>Europeans moving into New Europe
Oh I get it

[Anonymous No.18160275]

>>18160196
The pied noirs are not settlers because Algeria is an integral department of France

[Anonymous No.18160297]

>>18159231
>Why does it get a different name?
Most genocides really have their own name, is just that whites don't care.

[Anonymous No.18160400]

>>18160157
It doesn't involves mass murder, yet. Is a territorial war rather that a race war.

[Anonymous No.18160442]

>>18159408
>>18159417
>missing the point

[Anonymous No.18160445]

>>18160400
Israel has settler colonialism without mass murder

[Anonymous No.18160452]

>>18160445
Not Modern Europe, anon.

[Anonymous No.18160456]

>>18160452
The other guy was arguing that since there was no mass murder in crimea that there was not settler colonialism going on

[Anonymous No.18160461]

Of course, it's company policy always to imply hierarchy on the topic of holocaust. We have to use the indefinite article, "the holocaust", never ... a holocaust.

[Anonymous No.18160474]

i'm a jew and im certain americans have a warped unhealthy views of the holocaust. turning it into a fucking shitshow and a display of virtue signalling
im not sure about the numbers and wont blow my ass out figuring out how many millions exactly was it, still a tragedy that should be treated like any other, no more no less
whats it with burgergoyim's obsession with jews?

[Anonymous No.18160480]

>>18159098
Alright larpers obssess more about the holocaust than jews do.
>t. jew

[Anonymous No.18160491]

>>18159512
:(

[Anonymous No.18160509]

>>18160474
Lies
Gaslighting
Thousands of years of abrahamic manipulation into self denial, only to wake up to the fact

Yeah not a monolith, but when threat is perceived, those whom wave the banner...

[Anonymous No.18160513]

>>18159318
what is ironic is that there is better proof of intention to exterminate those of "polish derivation and language" than there is of jews. The only people who attempt to dispute this is Turkey because one version of the transcript mentions Armenians and even then they are only disputing that specific part since it differs from the other version which still mention poles and none of them mention jews.

[Anonymous No.18160526]

>>18160474
>whats it with burgergoyim's obsession with jews?
Eh, not a /pol/ack (I'm a Soc Dem), but I personally think is a species of "Pilar of Modern Western Liberalism", where the Holocaust serves the Ultimate Cautionary Tale about the Ultimate Evil.
I'm torn about that because in one side, we need a Unifying Narrative, but in the other, this come off as insulting to the peoples whose opression was not related to WW2 Affairs (ie. Native Americans outside USA and Canada, Africans, victims of Communism, victims of British Imperialism, etc).
Like, a lot of those "Holocaust was Unique" takes tend to be very dismissive about Soviet Racism, treating stuff as the soviets killing 1/3 of entire ethnic groups and putting the rest on jail for two decades as "Look, they were racist, but they did not say they were racist, so its very different":
...Its wacky.

[Anonymous No.18160530]

>>18160513
It's not ironic, it's sad, and some sort of weird theft of pain and tragedy from the polish people

[Anonymous No.18160538]

>>18160474
in grade school at the age of 8 a caravan of heebs arrive to tell us fairy tales about jews being made into soap. it sticks with you.

[Anonymous No.18160549]

>>18160513
>what is ironic is that there is better proof of intention to exterminate those of "polish derivation and language" than there is of jews.
Sure, but that's a result of the war that the Poles foist upon the Germans. People are reading 'The Forced War: When Peaceful Revision Failed' by Prof. David L. Hoggan.

[Anonymous No.18160553]

>>18160530
I honestly can't say I like Mous for its choice to frame the Poles as some sort of "secondary villain".
Like...c'mon, are we meant to believe that every Jewish Pole thought their Jewish identity was oposite to their Polish one?
At the risk of sounding like /pol/ack, I feel this narrative of "Jewish victims,, not Polish victims" exist because a lot of the modern Jews prefer to treat Jewish identity as a Global and Urbanite identity (bizarrely and ironically embracing the Hilterite narrative)

[Anonymous No.18160557]

>>18160526
The entire western mythos is now centered around shame, misery, pain, death
It's all demoralization
People didn't even en masse show up to help the black community until GF was killed.
It's draining and uninspiring
And so long as our motivation is based on this shame and pain, the holocaust lurks in the background as one of the largest cultural identifiers.
Plenty to be gained from that narrative.

[Anonymous No.18160577]

>>18160538
It's shit like this
The age of information is here and addressing all these lies will surface
There's no accountability in sight and people who question this manipulation are silenced through not only social shaming practices but literal institutional force.

[Anonymous No.18160580]

>>18160553
Cont.
Well, obviously Zionists reject the idea of Jewish Poles considering themselves Polish too. But this is the thing, BOTH major political jewish worldviews about the identity of European Jews see it as mutually exclusive.
Either the Polish Jews saw themselves as Jews because they were brave zionists or the Polish Jews were always rejected as Polish for the evil Poles.

[Anonymous No.18160590]

>>18160553
Yeah well unabashedly id just say that the narrative is a powerful tool

[Anonymous No.18160591]

>>18160442
Can't miss it if there is none

[Anonymous No.18160602]

>>18160526
>>18160557
Correct
>>18160590
If it's used in such a way and opposing narratives are silenced then yes

[Anonymous No.18160639]

>>18160549
Look even if Poland started the war what Germany did to Poland afterwards was genocidal war crimes. That the expulsion of the germans from eastern european was because of a "war that the Germans foist upon the Soviets" does not change that the Soviets commited the largest campaign of ethnic cleansing in history against them, and the fact that the Soviet Union was already ethnically cleansing Germans BEFORE the invasion of even Poland also does not discount the fact that Germany objectively started the war with the Soviets. The reality is a lot more complicated but it really isn't possible to claim that Germany did not attempt a genocide that qualifies as war crimes against Poland during WW2, and in fact unlike with the Soviet Union which was not a signatory of the First Geneva Convention, and thus Germany had no reason to expect any amount of leniency from the Soviets explaining the discrenpancy between treatments of prisoners of war on the western and eastern fronts, both Poland and Germany were signatories of the 1929 Geneva convention, and the ratification occurred in 1934 so this even happened under NSDAP authority. There really is no excuse for what there is definite proof that the Nazis did to Poles.

[Anonymous No.18160648]

>>18160639
What the fuck, are you a nuanced person? In 4chan?

[Anonymous No.18160682]

>>18160553
>At the risk of sounding like /pol/ack, I feel this narrative of "Jewish victims,, not Polish victims" exist because a lot of the modern Jews prefer to treat Jewish identity as a Global and Urbanite identity (bizarrely and ironically embracing the Hilterite narrative)
The /pol/ack identity is ironically similar in that they identify as the Jewish narrative of Hitler rather than anything the Nazis actually were.

[Anonymous No.18160694]

>>18160682
Which is?

[Anonymous No.18160713]

>>18160694
Imma guess, but the idea that the Nazis had a clear "White" identity and brotherhood rather that also seething at anglos, constantly being contemptuous to meds and obviously genocidal at Slavs.
Neo Nazis simply think that because they have no melanin, Hitler would like them

[Anonymous No.18160734]

this thread is a holocaust of time, energy, effort, brain cells

[Anonymous No.18160739]

>>18160713
Pol ideologically follow the former and will openly trash Der Untermensch. In fact they pretty strictly follow what you outlined.
That said, there's no Ubermensch on pol

[Anonymous No.18160763]

>>18160474
>whats it with burgergoyim's obsession with jews?

they don´t want to blame their own philosophical and moral virtues so they resort to a scapegoat, there´s a reason the eternal anglo is a funnier meme, because at least it has a basis on reality, pic related

[Anonymous No.18160774]

>>18160763
anglos just did what the bank of england told them to

their retardation makes perfect sense if you understand that

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18160809]

>>18160297
The Dacian, Armenian, and Native American genocides have different names?

[Anonymous No.18160814]

>>18160763
>no it's not the jews it's the anglos
Why always this deflection, hasbara?

[Anonymous No.18160847]

>>18160774
>>18160814

their foundational moral values relies upon happiness as a data metric and "civilizational enforcers" a.k.a the white man´s burden, but since the latter became taboo, they had to change some things but the core is the same, if you don´t accept our values, you´re just a reactionary dumbfuck who will accept our values by force, this is what happened in both world wars, an international community led by the U.S and Britain inspired by figures like Cecil Rhodes among others

now in the XXIst century they demand that the whole western world should worship minorities and give free money and racism and sexism are the dangers of civilization, how laughable

[Anonymous No.18160848]

>>18160809
>, Armenian
Medz Yeghern
All your other examples are from pre modern eras (and in the case of native, so wildly different groups), so obviously we keep no names.

[Anonymous No.18160853]

>>18160847
>if you don´t accept our values, you´re just a reactionary dumbfuck who will accept our values by force, this is what happened in both world wars, an international community led by the U.S and Britain inspired by figures like Cecil Rhodes among others
I find ironic how Rhodes is hated for Progressives that genuinely agree with him, its so absurd

[Anonymous No.18160864]

>>18160853
key word is inspired, i didn´t say they copied his ideas

[Anonymous No.18160866]

>>18160847
You didn't address the fact that it was all financed by jews

[Anonymous No.18160881]

>>18160866
financed by elite anglos

[Anonymous No.18160898]

>>18160881
*executed by elite anglos, financed by elite jews

[Anonymous No.18160906]

>>18160898

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18160908]

>>18160814
Because it’s the English!

[Anonymous No.18160914]

>>18160906
Still hiding behind the golem i see

[Anonymous No.18160915]

>>18160906
No more brother wars, schlomo

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18160918]

>>18160906
That pic looks more like a Cardasian from Star Trek

[Anonymous No.18160922]

>>18160908
Financed by elite jews since the middle ages

[Anonymous No.18160953]

Anyone knows good books about the topic?

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18160960]

>>18160922
>All of England was financed by de judes
Crazy conspiracies

[Anonymous No.18160972]

>>18160960
Not really

[Anonymous No.18160989]

>>18160960
The original comment was about holocaust numbers and gaslighting narrative for power. Lies we've been told and manipulated with.
And now you've made it about England

I dream of the era when we are post language

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18161014]

>>18160989
LaRouche makes it about England. I know it’s just the systems and not some ethnicity. You people are nuts

[Anonymous No.18161046]

>>18161014
Sure, but the character mask gets slipped on to play the part to milk the rewards.
>victim blaming
Becoming cognizant of so many cultural lies and identity gaslighting causes contempt. Whodathunk.

Systems house, conjure, and foster identity, especially during those eras of high nationality.
And I'm not about to play this ethnicity/ideology game with you.

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18161248]

>>18161046
Just pull that accumulative currency linchpin and watch it all go away.

[Anonymous No.18161274]

>>18161248
I'm more fixated on language, narrative, lies

[Anonymous No.18161316]

>>18159433
Aimé Césaire

[Anonymous No.18161341]

>>18159399
>but was he enslaving Europeans?
Was Hitler?
Have you read many accounts from the French during Nazi occupation?

[Anonymous No.18161417]

>>18159949
>End capitalism
Do you keep defaulting to finances to avoid sins of their fathers? Thinking if you can satiate the wave of ferocity currently aimed at capitalism then it's all clear?
Still can't let the golden goose of ww2 go?
Still aren't willing to address manipulative practices through social engineering?

I'm all for change but let's get a bit more serious here.

[Anonymous No.18161879]

Why the Holocaust is unique?

[None !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18161983]

>>18161417
I’m quite serious. You however seem to be quite unhinged

[Anonymous No.18162047]

>>18161879
It showed that the new political system: Fascism. Was a complete and utter failure, and it's needed today to remind everyone why European right-wing extremist are the most dangerous, destructive, and evil type of ideology there is.

[Anonymous No.18162113]

>>18159205
If they are it's because they're a byproduct of their environment. Also prove it.

[Anonymous No.18162142]

>>18159517
What is torture and false confession? Can never produce physical evidence.

[Anonymous No.18162149]

>>18159681
>only the natzees practiced colonialism in Europe
debunked, time to move goalposts
>only the natzees practiced SETTLER colonialism in Europe
debunked, time to move goalposts
>only the natzees practiced WHITE ON WHITE settler colonialism in MODERN europe
I wonder where this is going next

[Anonymous No.18162150]

>>18159604
There is no 'white' in Europe you fucking idiot.

[Anonymous No.18162158]

>>18159681
Poland after treaty of Versailles

[Anonymous No.18162164]

>>18159098
the holocaust was real and absolutely justified.

[Anonymous No.18162173]

>>18160297
What's the genocide of Europeans called?

[Anonymous No.18162179]

>>18160445
Holy shit are you joking? Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed since Israels inception, you're just too young/stupid to know.

[Anonymous No.18162194]

>>18162179
I'm not talking about pre-1948 British Mandate illegal immigration, I'm talking about the state of Israel's settler colonialism in the territories it captured in 1967.

[Anonymous No.18162207]

>>18160474
Probably because the Holocaust is used to brow beat people and that it doesn't need to be proved. Nothing else holds Europeans back more than the fear of offending Jews.

[Anonymous No.18162215]

It's uniquely fake

[Anonymous No.18162225]

>>18160639
What war crimes, what genocide are you referring to? What treatment and what specific events?

[Anonymous No.18162245]

>>18162194
Yes so am I.

[Anonymous No.18162290]

>>18162225
Okay so like my point is that the functionalism vs intentionalism debate is only really raging for the genocide of european jews. Nobody has disputed the transcript where the fuhrer's olzberg speech where he openly says that their war goals against poland are not reaching certain lines but rather like that of Genghis Khan where it is the complete destruction of people of polish derivation and language. Since intent is the key factor behind whether something can be classes as genocide, this transcript, which as I have stated nobody except turkey has even partially denied, proves intent. This intent contextualizes the specific events which nobody denies occurs. The functionalism vs intentionalism debate for the jews which relies on the absence of a proof of intent on the fuhrer's part DOES NOT deny any of the events of what is called the holocaust, nor does it deny that the people carrying out those events intended to destroy jews as a group, it merely disputes if those events against jews were "top down" from the fuhrer, or "bottom up" where the lower ranks organized it spontaneously (ie a functional genocide rather than an intentional genocide that was policy). The acts against the poles were an official policy of genocide that noboby denies, while it is still possible to deny academically that what is called the holocaust was official policy from the top due to this absence. The same CANNOT be said for the poles. This might simply be the fact that the genocide of the poles is so ignored that people don't even bother denying it though.

[Anonymous No.18162308]

>>18159098
I found this meme and couldn't resist posting it.

[Anonymous No.18162311]

>>18162245
I don't know of any mass murders by the israelis beyond the events of 1948

[Anonymous No.18162333]

>>18162047
Based answer

[Anonymous No.18162343]

>>18162173
The Great Replacement. You guys gave it a name.

[Anonymous No.18162413]

>>18162290
>This might simply be the fact that the genocide of the poles is so ignored that people don't even bother denying it though.
Summary of the situation

[Anonymous No.18162432]

>>18162047
>>18162333
these days it's impossible to tell whether people are just baiting sam hyde style or whether they're genuinely retarded.

[Anonymous No.18162509]

>>18162413
If a genocide happens in the forest and nobody is around to demand reparations, does anybody really deny it?

[Anonymous No.18162695]

>>18162509
>nobody is around to demand reparations
Poland absolutely got their reparations from Germany tho

[Anonymous No.18162936]

>>18162695
That's what Germany get's for losing WWII and still having Germans left. They still have to pay reparations for WWI on top of WWII.

[Anonymous No.18162955]

>>18159681
this U-shape is perhaps the most fought over stretch of land in the world

[Anonymous No.18162958]

>>18162936
Based.

[Anonymous No.18162959]

The Holocaust happened but I just don't see why anybody cares. Like obviously I know that the Jews just milk it since they have all of the power in our society, but realistically it was not unique in the grand arch of history nor even merely within the 20th century.

[Anonymous No.18162971]

>>18162290
It's not just that there was no top down intent, it's that the bottom up genocide also doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.18162974]

>>18162955
nuke it

[Anonymous No.18162983]

>>18162955
>this U-shape is perhaps the most fought over stretch of land in the world
there is literally nothing of importance there, if anything it is the great barbarian buffer that has kept Europe (the good part) from other barbarians.

[Anonymous No.18163001]

>>18162311
This should catch you up

Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler-Colonial Conquest and Resistance, 1917-2017

[Anonymous No.18163024]

>>18162959
If they're going to milk it, I damn sure what to know what actually happened. Anyone capable of approaching a subject honestly will not come to the conclusion that it simply happened.

[Anonymous No.18163030]

>>18162971
He notes that in his post. All of these camps were realistically just run as fiefdoms. So you're running this work camp for Jews but the guy in charge of the city down the railway from you keeps sending you more Jews in train cars and half of them are old or sick and are just going to be a drain on resources and there's nowhere for you to send them because you're the end of the line. So you pick out the losers on arrival and shoot them because what the fuck else are you going to do with them? And even if this is happening on a mass scale it's not an intentional genocide, there is not intent from anyone in the system to destroy the Jews even if that's functionally what will end up happening. Everyone is just trying to keep the gears turning.

[Anonymous No.18163033]

>>18162955
The eternal Anglo never wanted a continental European superpower. Most external actors have worked to divide and conqueror the European people. The reason why it's so often fought over is because unity is strength and diversity is weakness. When brothers stop fighting and work together, those that have exploited division are found out and often the subject of the next devastating war.

[Anonymous No.18163035]

>>18162971
you are free to think that but I am merely relaying the academic debates which are currently occurring and stating that there are no equivalent academic debates about the evidence for a direct policy of extermination of the polish people which is not denied by anyone even partially except for turkey and even then its a quibble about the specifics related to Armenians rather than the overall evidence

[Anonymous No.18163036]

>>18163024
Giving a platform to holocaust deniers is like giving one to flat-earthers. It's a waste of time and doesn't progress the discussion anywhere.

[Anonymous No.18163062]

>>18163024
Arguing over what exactly happened just seems like a moot point to me at this point. It was like 100 years ago, the collective opinion of it has swung entirely in one direction and any primary evidence to the contrary is either buried or destroyed. It doesn't seem like a hill worth dying on because if you take a stand over it you will definitely die for it, so to speak.

[Anonymous No.18163075]

>>18163036
This is by far the most insidious rationalization for not addressing criticism. Straight out of the propaganda playbook.

Flat earthers make more sense than round earthers because one has observed their immediate reality and tried to explain it, the other has taken what seems unintuitive as gospel without understanding why. If you perhaps addressed the obvious missing gaps in knowledge you would have a more informed people. Flat earthers are probably smarter than the average round earther.

[Anonymous No.18163081]

>>18163062
Then don't comment on it, your opinions are entirely irrelevant and your assertion that it happened makes you look like a fucking idiot after you start back pedaling. It might not be your hill, but it's someone's hill.

[Anonymous No.18163091]

>>18163075
>this entire post
And I rest my case. Holocaust denial is a crime for reason.

[Anonymous No.18163092]

>>18163030
Germans actively tried to keep their prisoners' alive. They moved them from east to west where there were better supplies. A lot of movement from poland to germany was conducted to keep prisoners alive. The fact you simply accept that they were killing people unremorsefully is ludicrous.

[Anonymous No.18163097]

>4 million
>6 million
>7 million

[Anonymous No.18163099]

>>18163081
Acknowledging that tons of Jews died is not backpedaling within my argument you braindead retard. 6 million Jews dying is not a historically significant event in any context.

[Anonymous No.18163103]

>>18163099
>It happened
>Arguing over what exactly happened just seems like a moot point

[Anonymous No.18163130]

>>18163103
>you said that you don't see any point in arguing over what happened and I am now surprised that you have conceded that point and moved on to something else

[Anonymous No.18163164]

>>18163130
So you are arguing over what exactly happened?

[Anonymous No.18163167]

>>18163075
The type of person this begins to create is alarming
I sincerely wonder the bedrock effects of being lied to but never coming to realize it

People are not taught to be sincere skeptics enough
Especially in our untrustworthy environment

[Anonymous No.18163187]

>>18163164
No, when I'm faced with someone who's going on and on about the Holocaust instead of trying to argue that it didn't happen or was just a POW situation gone wrong I argue that even as a genocide there is nothing significant about it and that the attention that person is giving it is unwarranted.

[Anonymous No.18163194]

>>18163167
I agree, very alarming. Another thing to be weary of is when the person who has been lied to enough no longer believes anything, or is irrationally skeptic to the point of paranoia. It fractures people so profoundly when you take the high trust in lies people and break that trust.

[Anonymous No.18163201]

>>18163187
To be able to claim it was a genocide you must first find the genocide. Your point reinforces that it occurred but it's entirely normal in history, the actual point is, that it didn't occur so that there is nothing for it to be compared to in history.

[Anonymous No.18163207]

>>18163091
They're talking about the mass of people who accept whatever face value information is spoonfed to them vs people to challenge these standards
The latter if obviously on a sincere path of intellectualism by coming up with ways to verify, while also applying their own creativity

Nasa is another prime example of lies. I work in video and I can see plenty of fakes and lies they've produced in their videos.
I'm not claiming whether we've gone to space. Im not a flat earther
But people are not skeptical and would rather appease to conformity/authority for good-people-points rather than question and challenge the world around them.

They enable the web of abuse from these institutions and narratives and you're basically vIcTiM bLaMiNg since these liars are the ones abusing people and maintaining illusion for control, power, money, etc.
You become just as bad or worse because you're probably somewhat intellectually competent but not willing to be skeptical of the deemed holy untouchables. You defend these things without any investigative rigor or curiosity yourself.

[Anonymous No.18163217]

>>18159176
No you can't. Generally you can't even dispute myths that academically are agreed to be false. It's because the point isn't truthfulness, it's 'only an antisemite nazi would dare question anything related to it'. Mere intention is taken as damnation, as with so many other things in our time. It is anti-intellectual, cultish behaviour.

[Anonymous No.18163233]

>>18163217
Criticizing something doesn't default put you in the prestablished bin of antithesis. That and those words are part of a process which allows any power structure to immediate squash any curious inquiry

I don't like being lied to. I don't care who's doing it.

[Anonymous No.18163287]

>>18163201
It's a losing fight. The entire academic machinery of Western Civilization has been turned against you in justifying that a genocide of some sort did occur, so you've lost ethos. And it should go without saying that public opinion on the subject is overwhelmingly against you, the second you start disputing the Holocaust narrative people will kneejerk view you as a crank so you're not going to win pathos either. You can make the most logical argument you want and you're not going to persuade anyone. I guess you can have your own the libtard moment but at that point why even go through the trouble of arguing, just call them a retarded kike and move on with your day. Broaching the Holocaust with someone you've been talking to for awhile is definitely worthwhile but if you're just in a one-off conversation the second you start trying to tangle with the Holocaust narrative you're going to destroy the credibility of absolutely anything and everything else you've said. And eventually you're going to run into one of the numerous kikes who's spent his life earning his livelihood in the Holocaust apologetics grift machine and he's going to trip you up just by the sheer quantity of shit there is to throw at you.

Focusing on the unearned significance it gets maneuvers around emotional trigger that comes with trying to dispute the event while still attacking the power that they get from it. Professional Holocaust grifters will still try to claim you're practicing "Holocaust Denial" but this sounds much more ridiculous to people because you've never actually denied the Holocaust. Like yeah, if someone starts talking about Holocosters with loop-d-loops that threw people into lampshade factories maybe you've got some room to work with but if you start trying to get into the minutiae of the nature of camps and how many people were killed you're just going to get written off as a cartoon character.

[Anonymous No.18163322]

>>18159098
Uniquely undocumented by notoriously autistic Teutons, ‘memoirs’ of Auschwitz extracted under ball busting torture to obfuscate Holodomor, Katyn, et. al. notwithstanding, to say nothing of the ‘occulted’ meme of six-gorillion appearing innumerable in publications pre-1939 world wide

[Anonymous No.18164079]

Why we can't just compare it to other genocides rather that discussing if it happened or not

[Anonymous No.18164249]

>>18164079
Because the other genocides have proof they happened and don't stop people investigating them.

[Anonymous No.18164786]

>>18159555
>>18159573
>>18159614
retard

[Anonymous No.18164872]

>>18159287
>Everything you don't like is a bad faith argument. That's why they're so easy for you to uncover. Midwit.
Another bad faith argument.

[Anonymous No.18165091]

>>18159152
Absolute denial is stupid but there's something so putrid that can't be tell and that's why can't be touched
Not going full /pol/ but the numbers sound ridiculous also the methods (as put people inside freezers)but probably the more you cry the big the reparations.
But
Personally I suspect that places like Auschwitz were a scam running by jewish and corrupt officers,because is funny the big number of people who escaped from it to the actual Israel, probably were people with rich guilty parents/relatives
You want to extract your cousin schlomo and his wife from a war-torn continent,pay.

[Anonymous No.18165502]

>>18159176
oh, but of course! I'll just go to jail for it!

[Anonymous No.18165510]

>>18159176
post it so we can see

[Anonymous No.18165515]

>>18159179
they regularly deny american on american genocides before european contact (not that I'm necessarily saying it happened)

[Anonymous No.18165532]

>>18165091
>the methods (as put people inside freezers)
these things are from self-published scam crap not actual history books

[Anonymous No.18165707]

>>18163097
The reasons why height hundred millions were lost are interesting - communists doubling the number in the camps freed by them, in order to look more heroic for winning the 41-45 War, communists hiding the fact that many were survivors who were deported and died in Russia, the press lumping every gay and gypsy dead as a jew for shock value, etc.
Deniers however are making this worse, by denying it even happened they make people think that my willingness to discuss the exact numbers make me a disguised nazi or something.

[Anonymous No.18165750]

>>18165515
Rape didn't exist prior to european contact

[Anonymous No.18165775]

>>18165091
You know, that's an interesting angle. I wonder if contractors were scamming the Reich.

[Anonymous No.18167179]

>>18165515
Eh, that is not the same.

[Anonymous No.18168459]

>>18165707
Why exactly did this happen?

[Anonymous No.18168482]

>>18159098
The holocaust is unique in the way it is used as a tool of propaganda.

[Anonymous No.18169334]

>>18168482
Why?

[Anonymous No.18169342]

>>18169334
The entire modern world relies on it.

[Anonymous No.18169361]

>>18169342
That is...true.
How would the world be if the Cultural Core was any other topic?

[Anonymous No.18169420]

>>18165707
Denying the Holocaust does not mean denying Jewish persecution, Jewish death or death in camps.

[Anonymous No.18169423]

>>18169361
The constant message of shame, guilt would not be as effective. Jews would be seen more and their over representation in positions of influence and power would be questioned.

[Anonymous No.18169428]

>>18159176
Tell that to Ursula Haverbeck lmao

[Anonymous No.18169444]

>>18159098
Test