Stoicism

[Anonymous No.18150725]

How can a Stoic not be a Ascetic? Since virtue is one of the main principles of stoicism. How can he choose to be wealthy when others endure poverty. How can I have assets when other are suffering from lack of necessities? Everyday I see homeless people while going to work. They keep on increasing because of Covid. I try to donate as much as I can, but is $50 enough for a person without a home, job, food, clothing? I see little kids pretending to be adults and the sheer thought of them having to whore themselves out to survive, breaks me. I live in a 8.ft x 10.ft, which can easily fit a few more people. The amount of food I eat if rationed correctly can feed 2 more people. Since I wear only one set of clothes to work a day, my other clothes can be worn by those who lack them. If virtue is indeed one of the core principles of stoicism, what are a stoic's argument against asceticism?

[Anonymous No.18150815]

>>18150725
According to Epictetus, asceticism in the vein of Diogenes of Sinope is indeed the most virtuous way to live. But Epictetus recognised that almost nobody is virtuous enough to live that life. Stoicism was not too concerned about raising people out of poverty, if anything it taught that a stoic should accept whatever is his lot in life, whether rich or poor. I can't find the reference but in the Discourses, Epictetus even address economic injustice and his answer is that the undeserving rich suffer from their greed and avarice and aren't really better off.

It's probably the least tasteful aspect of stoicism for modern westerners. It relies on the assumption that everything is ordered by divine providence, so there isn't much room to be worried about income inequality. Personally I don't subscribe to that but it's the historical stoic view.

[Anonymous No.18150839]

>>18150725
Stoics never really defined what virtue is in a concrete manner. It's basically staying true to what you are.

[Anonymous No.18150849]

>>18150725
Truly a wojak take. The suffering of the homeless was decreed by nature and furthermore gives them merit, making them morally superior to you. Who are you to try to degrade them by pretending to help, when you are doing so only to assuage your own feelings of guilt?
You'll never make it as a stoic, christianity is more your speed.

[Anonymous No.18150867]

>>18150725
jesus christ can't you just pick and choose? can't you just think critically and take what works for you and leave what doesn't? you don't need to reconcile shit; you don't need to reject the parts at the expense of the whole. fuck.

[Anonymous No.18150878]

>>18150867
>jesus christ can't you just pick and choose?
Ngmi.

[Anonymous No.18150885]

>>18150725
Stoicism is a thin gruel phliosophy. There is a reason Christianity extinguished the neoplatonists or early Stoics. Stoics in their personal lifes were big hyprocrites. Seneca was a billionaire. Marcus Aurelius was a Roman emperor and persecuted Christians. He allowed his disgrace of a son to ascend to the purple.

Modern day stoicism are a kind of reaction to the absence of Christianity in daily modern life and a kind of sythesis with budhist though and rejection of materialism. The reality is people like to profess its precepts but dont like to follow it in their daily lives.

[Anonymous No.18150901]

>>18150885
>Marcus Aurelius was a Roman emperor and persecuted Christians.
Based.

[Anonymous No.18150908]

>>18150725
Lesson no 1. Don't concern yourself with things that you cannot change.

Will you ever be able to fix the problem of poverty and inequality? No? Don't worry about it.
- Collectivists hate this ONE trick!

[Anonymous No.18150926]

>>18150901
The persecution of Christians under his rein was heavily exaggerated by subsequent Christian writers who were hilariously biased but it was a based reaction to a subversive group regardless.

Remind you of any subsequent events?

[Anonymous No.18150940]

>>18150908
>Will you ever be able to fix the problem of poverty and inequality? No? Don't worry about it.
True. But if I'm eating steak tonight, and I can afford 6 loaves of bread at the same price of the steak. Thereby feeding 5 more people, aren't I being sinful by choosing to not do that?

[Anonymous No.18150963]

>>18150885
>Stoics in their personal lifes were big hyprocrites. Seneca was a billionaire. Marcus Aurelius was a Roman emperor and persecuted Christians. He allowed his disgrace of a son to ascend to the purple.
Hypocritical how? Stoics weren't communists. They didn't give a shit about wealth inequality.

[Anonymous No.18150966]

>>18150940
> sinful
Get out of here with this christfag terminology.
Excellence of character is its own reward. Stoics don't need to be manipulated into goodness by stories of hellfire and judgement.

To live one's life reasonably is the only demand of the Stoic God. The rest is up to you, because he gave you reason to freely use to the best of your ability. He's not the Abrahamic autist who dictates how long you have to cut your beard or when you can eat meat.

[Anonymous No.18150976]

>>18150966
Replace sinful with bad. You didn't refute my point.

[Anonymous No.18150984]

>>18150976
If you see a man starving, sure give him some food
But don't spend your life thinking of all the people out there that are also starving. Because you will never be able to change that.

[Anonymous No.18150998]

>>18150725
virtue is an inward state. your fortune means nothing in terms of stoicism. literally only brainlets can't comprehend this. Seneca was an extremely wealthy man with multiple estates but is considered to be a very influential stoic.
Pick up a book

[Anonymous No.18151012]

>>18150998
>seneca was an extremely wealthy man with multiple estates, who created a system of belief that justified his character as virtuous.

Wow gee, wonder why he did that

[Anonymous No.18151014]

>>18151012
>communist retards really believe everything everyone does revolves around wealth

[Anonymous No.18151022]

>>18150984
You see 5 starving men. You can give each 5 dollars, it'll feed them once a day. But if you could reduce your expenditure, you could afford to give them money that feeds them thrice a day and even warm clothes and shelter.

[Anonymous No.18151025]

>>18151012
>Seneca created a system of belief that justified his character as virtuous.
READ A BOOK, NOW

[Anonymous No.18151028]

>>18151022
And then you life becomes subsumed by something that will ultimately help no one.
These people become dependant on your help and you get trapped in a cycle.

Read the povery of philosophy by Oscar Wilde. It may change your views on charity.

[Anonymous No.18151034]

>>18151014
Wealth = Power.
All human civilization has been based on a quest for power - and have all ended when the justification for that power is seen as illegitimate.

[Anonymous No.18151036]

>>18150815
Seneca talks about material wellbeing very differently. it almost reminds me of Adam smith with a moral obligation to pursue profit for the collective wellbeing it brings.

[Anonymous No.18151041]

>>18151034
Power is power. Wealth is merely a symbol of it.

[Anonymous No.18151059]

>>18151041
No wealth can be a means to power but it's mostly a means to freedom.

[Anonymous No.18151088]

>>18150963
One of the fundamental tenets of Stoicism is rejection of attachment to material things. Being a emperor or literal billionaire is not consistent. Its like John Lennon saying imagine no possesions. Easy to do if you are rich.

[Anonymous No.18151092]

>>18151041
Nope, wealth generates power.
A man with wealth has a great amount of social and political influence.
The man with no wealth has none.

All those with social and political influence at this time either have money, or are good enough at pretending they have money to project power.

[Anonymous No.18151123]

>>18151092
You got it the wrong way around. Power attracts wealth. Its why Putin is a literal trillionaire or the Saudi Royal family are the same. Being in a powerful position allows you to accumalate wealth. Big corp's are wealthy because of the power their products give them in a market place.

They then use wealth to influence the power, via lobbying, advertising or other methods (funding foundations, sponsoring events, court cases etc)

[Anonymous No.18151143]

>>18151059
Unless you allow the things you own to end up owning you.

[Anonymous No.18151144]

>>18151123
Power attracts wealth but it does not necessarily make you wealthy. This exchange is seen as corruption.

Big coprs wealth comes from their products, appealing to the most people. Their power comes from the government in which they are able to influence. The moment they lose the publics interest they are done. That's why businesses, without government intervention, strive to appeal to the majority. Their position should be fickle that's what drives competition and innovation of products. The government, who they bribe, use their power to reduce the publics ability to choose alternatives and create monopiles for some businesses. Or they use peoples money to enshrine businesses that do not appeal to people (subsidies).

It's a double edge sword. If power attracts wealth, it's only possible because power has allowed it to.

[Anonymous No.18151148]

>>18151143
That's why wealth isn't power as much as wealth isn't freedom.

[Anonymous No.18151158]

>>18151143
>>18151148
I read a book on the persecution of heretics. One of the biggest tools of the church was the threat of seizure of property. Most heretics could easily flee to another part of Europe. But they didn't. All their wealth was tied up in land. Seizure of wealth or loss of wealth is a real status.

But its also hypocritical. Its easy to not care about wealth if you yourself, are wealthy.
If you go hungry or without comfort you quickly understand how important materialism is.

[Anonymous No.18151168]

>>18151088
It's not about rejection but being ultimately indifferent to those material things to the point you can accept to lose it all.

[Anonymous No.18151185]

>>18151158

You could say the opposite: It is easier for the poor to continue as such in misery but harder for the rich to lose their privileges and comfort.

[Anonymous No.18151214]

>>18151185
> It is easier for the poor to continue as such in misery
Very true. The poor stay poor is the general rule of thumb. Read up on any peasant rebellions in Europe and it has one outcome. The poor get richer by technological innovation or by land reform.

However once people get a taste of the good life its hard to switch things back. One of the reasons the Communists or post revolutionary France managed to stay stable was they confirmed the break up of the large estates and some of the rural poor got a real advance in wealth & living standards.

[Anonymous No.18151233]

>>18150725
Have sex.

[Anonymous No.18151257]

>>18151092
>A man with wealth has a great amount of social and political influence.
>The man with no wealth has none.
This is quite obviously untrue. Wealth, of course, can have its uses, but it does not guarantee power by any means, unless the possessor of this wealth is a naturally commanding and powerful person. This is where inherent power becomes necessary. Power is the fundamental source of wealth inequality. Some men are powerful, some aren't. Glory and wealth gravitates to the powerful like iron dust to a magnet.

[Anonymous No.18151277]

>>18150725
Have sex.

[Anonymous No.18151289]

>>18151257
Name one powerful man who is not wealthy

[Anonymous No.18151299]

>>18151289
I don't have to, because I just stated that power attracts wealth like a magnet. Naturally, this would mean most known powerful men would also be wealthy.
But even if you don't accept this, there are men like Lenin who commanded much power without even possessing much in the way of wealth.

[Anonymous No.18151356]

>>18151233
>>18151277
You have to be a really repulsive human being if that is your response.

[Anonymous No.18151404]

>>18151289
Power in proportion to wealth?

[Anonymous No.18151476]

>>18150725
Donating your clothes won't stop shitty or stupid people making themselves homeless with poor life choices. Donate excess food and old clothes to charity sure but don't go crazy.

> I live in a 8.ft x 10.ft, which can easily fit a few more people.

These people will kill you for your pocket change, don't be an idiot.

[Anonymous No.18151493]

>>18150725
Bro just don't suffer

[Anonymous No.18151528]

>>18151404
Not necessarily, I.e. the president of the US is arguably more powerful than the ceo of cisco

[Anonymous No.18151543]

>>18151168
What is the difference between indifference towards wealth and hoarding wealth?

[Anonymous No.18151608]

>all the brainlets itt

Wealth in stoicism is a preferred indifferent ; the Ideal Stoic prefers wealth virtuously gained but does not hanker over it or become internally distressed if he does not get it.

Seneca was wealthy, yes, but he did also criticize excessive wealth, usually on the grounds that its accumulation tends to consume one's life. If one becomes a slave to wealth, position, or any other worldly gain, one has surely lost the plot. However, having wealth is preferable on practical grounds. For a Stoic.

See : on the shortness of life, and, the letter on Vatio's villa

[Anonymous No.18151634]

>>18150725
>How can I have assets when other are suffering from lack of necessities?
I just inherited it. Can't see what's all the fuss about.

[Anonymous No.18151642]

>>18151289
Henry Kissinger

[Anonymous No.18151685]

>>18151608
Correction - The letter on Vatia's villa.

[Anonymous No.18151720]

>>18150725
Better for you to work with a church or leftist organization or nonprofit to care for the homeless than doing it on your own. Money given to the correct church/leftOrg/nonprofit will be far more useful and go a lot farther.

[Anonymous No.18151774]

>>18151720
>giving money to mouthbreathing leftoids
Yeah thank you but no thank you

[Anonymous No.18151809]

>>18150963
this. OP what are you on about?
>>18151088
>rejection of material things
um.. no? it's indifference, not rejection. Marcus Aurelius was made an emperor but he didn't indulge into the trivialities of partying and displays of wealth.

[Anonymous No.18151840]

Stoics can enjoy their wealth, just give to charity and sleep in your shed once a month so you don't become too soft.

Of course if you really want to make a difference buy land on the outskirts of towns and plant trees on it to prevent 'development'.

[Anonymous No.18152724]

>>18150725
Pain!

[Anonymous No.18152734]

>>18151774
At least they love their neighbors.

[Anonymous No.18152909]

>>18151774
One quick Google can demonstrate that all Americans are mouth breathers.