/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18141214]

Can somebody summarize what exactly was the conflict between these two? Does it just come down to Wagner's nationalism being too vulgar for Nietzsche? There is a lot of crossover between them, and Nietzsche obviously doesn't favor the democratic or liberal view (he also considered Tristan and Isolde the greatest work of art ever made without rival even after the split), so why the drama?

Noteworthy: Malwida von Meysenbug said to Nietzsche in a letter that she thought he was being too harsh to Wagner, and Nietzsche replied that she had misunderstood him. Was Nietzsche's attack not really an attack but something else?

[Anonymous No.18141313]

A really good summary of their relationship is the last chapter in the book "Wagner and Philosophy". I believe it's on libgen.

And no, it has nothing to do with that cancerous "X and Philosophy" series.

[Anonymous No.18141380]

>>18141313
http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=AE45601B35D7C4A3099A3877D9850068

[Anonymous No.18141398]

>>18141313
>>18141380
Will check it out, thanks

[Anonymous No.18141479]

>>18141214
It's certain that Nietzsche was fictionalising the voice in all his works, and personally he went between hating Wagner to loving him. But then for what intellectual reasons did he write what he did on Wagner? That is a question as large as Nietzsche's philosophy and personality.

>Famously, in his published writing Nietzsche sets up Bizet against Wagner, declares Carmen to be the greatest of all operas, and compares its music favourably with Wagner's in a certain amount of detail. But he does not believe this either. Privately, in a letter to a friend he writes: 'What I say about Bizet, you should not take seriously the way I am, Bizet does not matter at all to me. But as an ironic antithesis to Wagner, it has a strong effect' (27 December 1888). It does indeed, and has been quoted ever since. We begin to realise who, as between Nietzsche and Wagner, is the actor, the master of insincere effect. As for Wagner the man, although Nietzsche heaped almost incredible public abuse on his head ('Is Wagner a human being at all? Isn't he rather a sickness?' — this remark in The Wagner Case is representative of dozens such to be found in his writings) he never, in spite of himself, lost a vivid sense of Wagner's greatness. In the last year of his effective life he wrote to a friend: 'Wagner himself, as man, as animal, as God and artist, surpasses a thousand times the understanding and the incomprehension of our Germans. Whether it is the same with the French I do not know.' (26 February 1888).

Also is there anywhere I can see the Terry Gilliam Wagner-Nietzsche movie?

[Anonymous No.18141493]

>>18141214
>Famously, in his published writing Nietzsche sets up Bizet against Wagner, declares Carmen to be the greatest of all operas, and compares its music favourably with Wagner's in a certain amount of detail. But he does not believe this either. Privately, in a letter to a friend he writes: 'What I say about Bizet, you should not take seriously the way I am, Bizet does not matter at all to me. But as an ironic antithesis to Wagner, it has a strong effect' (27 December 1888). It does indeed, and has been quoted ever since. We begin to realise who, as between Nietzsche and Wagner, is the actor, the master of insincere effect. As for Wagner the man, although Nietzsche heaped almost incredible public abuse on his head ('Is Wagner a human being at all? Isn't he rather a sickness?' — this remark in The Wagner Case is representative of dozens such to be found in his writings) he never, in spite of himself, lost a vivid sense of Wagner's greatness. In the last year of his effective life he wrote to a friend: 'Wagner himself, as man, as animal, as God and artist, surpasses a thousand times the understanding and the incomprehension of our Germans. Whether it is the same with the French I do not know.' (26 February 1888).

Also is there anywhere I can see the Terry Gilliam Wagner-Nietzsche movie?

[Anonymous No.18141501]

Not too difficult. Nietzsche was a simp and bitched out when he figured out Wagner wasn't gay.

[Anonymous No.18141521]

>>18141214
Wagner wanted jannies, and actively tried to clip Fred’s wings socially, to the end of having a star academic in his rotation of stans
Nietzsch took exception to this, and Wagner spreading lurid chronic fapper gossip to his own physician; Romanticism in music, with its Christian ‘redeemed by love’ gloss over German paganism, was antithetical to the tragic worldview of antiquity that informed his work. Possibly dicking down Cosima Wagner may have complicated this.

[Anonymous No.18141703]

>>18141521
Literally all Jewish propaganda.

[Anonymous No.18141798]

Does Nietzsche have his own miniseries? I didn't think so.

>considered one of the few roles deserving of late Burton's talent
>various other great actors like
>John Gielgud
>Ralph Richardson
>Lawrence Olivier
>Vanessa Redgrave
>was shot by the master cinematographer Vittorio Storaro, who did the cinematography for Apocalypse Now and The Conformist
>everything shot where it historically took place
>more than enough biographical content from Cosima's diary to have an authentic base for the story
>considered a masterpiece by some, glowing reviews from everyone
>very funny
>all originally conducted by Solti
>over 8 hours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN1WLF8T_Oc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkQfTIa0MZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4x6OiHe3AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HyHkQ578rI
https://youtu.be/MX_gSNQafZw?t=44

[Anonymous No.18141946]

>>18141214
I am aware that in 'attempt at self criticism,' of Birth of Tragedy, Nietzsche recants his praise of Wagner and says he is just as bad as any other holistically-apollonian artist.

[Anonymous No.18141963]

>>18141313
>>18141380
>>18141398
So I speed-read the chapter. I'll read it more in-depth another time, as it's certainly an informative read.

But I find it a little one-sided, naturally, being that it's a book on Wagner and not Nietzsche or on a more neutral subject. There seems to be quite a bit more about the quarrel than is shown here. I also quickly checked out Oliver Hilmes' book on Cosima Wagner and found this passage which I couldn't find anything on in Magee's:

>When Nietzsche arrived in Bayreuth on 23 July 1876 for the preliminary rehearsals of the Ring, he was already ill. A series of severe migraines made it impossible for him to follow events in the theatre, with the result that he was forced to leave Bayreuth even before the final dress rehearsals. He fled to the spa town of Klingenbrunn in the Bavarian Forest, but returned to Bayreuth on 12 August and remained there for two whole weeks, albeit in a wretchedly poor state of health. His experiences during this time must have left him profoundly shocked, for he found himself in a town that had almost literally lost its reason. Everywhere there were members of the establishment that he so excoriated – financially powerful and influential individuals, aristocrats and politicians, industrialists and socialites, all of whom described themselves as ‘Wagnerians’ but whose ranks he refused to join. He felt a stranger in Bayreuth, not least because the Wagners, otherwise engaged, had no time to worry about their young friend. ‘I recognized nothing,’ Nietzsche sighed many years later. ‘I hardly recognized Wagner.... What had happened? – Wagner had been translated into German! The Wagnerian had become master of Wagner! – German art! The German master! German beer!’ Even today we may still be amused by Nietzsche’s mockery of the ‘hair-raising crowd’ of Wagnerians that he encountered in Bayreuth: ‘Not an abortion was missing, not even the anti-Semite! – Poor Wagner! To what a pass had he come! – Better for him to have gone among swine! But among Germans!’

1/2

[Anonymous No.18141968]

>>18141963
2/2

>Nietzsche had presumably travelled to Upper Franconia with unreasonably high hopes, expecting to see Wagner’s artistic vision in unadulterated form, whereas what he found there was an embarrassing fairground atmosphere, with swimming Rhinedaughters, shaggy-haired Indian chieftains and absurdly comical dragons. He felt repelled by it all. But it is significant that he was either unable or unwilling to see that the composer, too, was disappointed and depressed at what had been achieved. It seems as if he believed that Wagner had betrayed the cultural ideal that the two men had propounded only a few years earlier, when Nietzsche had described himself as the composer’s pupil. The 1876 Festival marked a turning point in their relationship, although the definitive breach did not come until Wagner had written the libretto of Parsifal. Nietzsche then felt personally insulted, regarding the composer’s work on the score of his final music drama as an act of humiliating prostration before the Cross and also before the established Church. But the truth of the matter is that Nietzsche’s repudiation of Wagner was also an act of liberation. One contemporary expressed incredulity: ‘For those who know Wahnfried, the problem about Wagner and Nietzsche is not why Nietzsche broke with Wagner but how he was able to tolerate such an association over such a long period of time.’

He then goes on to talk about Cosima's role in this, and how Nietzsche accused her of having corrupted Wagner. I'll be reading that one in-depth another time as well. Anyway, I appreciate the recommendation.

[Anonymous No.18142117]

>>18141380
Link doesn't work.

[Anonymous No.18142248]

>>18142117
Works on my machine. You can try searching the ISBN instead

978-0-14-192937-8

[Anonymous No.18142259]

>>18142117
Oh, libgen might be blocked in your country...

https://files.catbox.moe/o2pwle.epub

[Anonymous No.18142414]

Pure resentment as always with Nietzsche. He remained the provincial pastor's son until the end of his life. These days he would post online about how nobody gets him and everyone is a sheep. Wagner just did his thing against the odds and became a titan.

[Anonymous No.18142441]

>>18142248
>>18142259
I download it, but it just closes when I open it.

[Anonymous No.18143694]

>>18142441
Manually search for it and download it from there. I was able to and it worked through the first mirror.

[Anonymous No.18143760]

>>18141214

[Anonymous No.18143763]

>>18143760

[Anonymous No.18143770]

>>18143763

[Anonymous No.18143780]

>>18143760
>>18143763
>>18143770
Retarded Christcuck propaganda.

[Anonymous No.18143811]

>>18143780
What do you mean? Magee wasn't a Christian as far as I'm aware.

[Anonymous No.18143848]

>>18143811
Wagner was, and he wasn't willing to embrace the Greek ideal to the extent that Nietzsche was due to his Christianity, so he had to be petty and spread rumors.

[Anonymous No.18144187]

>>18142441
You have an epub reader?

[Anonymous No.18144200]

>>18143848
OK but he still did it and it helps explain the animosity.

[Anonymous No.18144256]

>>18144200
The split started before all that though, as early as the festival in 1876, while they were still on good terms.

[Anonymous No.18144746]

>>18143848
>Wagner was
What's your reason for believing this? I don't recall him ever claiming that he was Christian and no one who knew him seemed to have believed that he was one either (Nietzsche included).

[Anonymous No.18144822]

>>18144746
His appeal to the "Wagnerians" and to Cosima demonstrated that he was at least more Christian than Nietzsche.

[Anonymous No.18144896]

>>18141798
One of my favourite series either. Richard Burtom was a perfect cast, I don't think we will ever see a Wagner as convincing as his own

[Anonymous No.18145086]

>>18144896
Wait, is it actually good? I usually avoid films about composers (any artists really) because of the cringe.

[Anonymous No.18145661]

>>18145086
Shockingly, yes, it is that good. I usually avoid films and series about composers for the same reason, but in this case I had literally nothing to complain about. It is accurate, it is beautifully shot, it has some of the best performances I have ever seen, and it is extremely entertaining. I cannot find any fault with it (apart from the fact that there isn't more of it). Actually now that I thought about it I remembered a flaw: Burton plays Wagner as a 20 years old in the first act, and it is not believable at all. Still, everything else is so good that you'll quickly forget about it (and again, Burton is a PERFECT Wagner - having read a lot about him it is almost every how accurate Burton's portrayal feels like).
It is a shame that works like these are so rare. Every great composer deserves a series like this one.