/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18131273]

>Cinema is the ultimate pervert art. It doesn't give you what you desire--it tells you how to desire.
what is the anti-pervert art?

[Anonymous No.18131277]

>>18131273
Poetry

[Anonymous No.18131278]

>>18131273
pornography/erotica

[Anonymous No.18131280]

>>18131273
Music

[Anonymous No.18131292]

>>18131273
Music, since you must give the meaning yourself

[Anonymous No.18131294]

>>18131273
Can someone translate this?

[Anonymous No.18131316]

>>18131294
modern entertainment is no longer made to cater to your desires. instead, it invents entirely new modes of desire for you to mimic.

[Anonymous No.18131324]

>>18131316
>modern entertainment is no longer made to cater to your desires.
meanwhile, the good guy wins in every movie ever made

[Anonymous No.18131372]

>>18131294
It had to do with Lacan's system and jargon. Perversion has to do with creating anxiety and invoking the death drive. Desire is a positive term, a creative benevolent drive.

I don't know what the sniffer has in mind though

[Anonymous No.18131524]

>>18131324
i’m not saying it isn’t desirable, i’m saying it creates new modes of desire to take control of you. “the good guy winning” is a useful part of the desire for order and shit.

[Anonymous No.18131533]

>>18131273
Buddhism

[Anonymous No.18131547]

>>18131524
I still don't know what the hell he meant. Does he only have Hollywood films in mind? Because there are many films from other places that I wouldn't really consider that much different from their source material (like novels, etc).

[Anonymous No.18131559]

>>18131524
>i’m saying it creates new modes of desire to take control of you
got any examples?

[Anonymous No.18131610]

>>18131559
not that anon, but the first things that comes into my mind is the aesthetic of the main character from the drive. I remember when incels started buying that scorpion jacket to look like him.

[Anonymous No.18131623]

>>18131610
incels weren't even a thing in 2011

[Anonymous No.18131629]

>>18131623
incels were a thing since the start of humanity

[Anonymous No.18131677]

>>18131273
>Listening to someone wearing a t-shirt

Better yourself, slob.

[Anonymous No.18131702]

>>18131629
no, it's a modern phenomenon. rape and whores existed back then (legally) and everyone satisfied their sexual needs. unlike now, where everything around sex is restricted.

[Anonymous No.18131735]

>>18131273
Who said this retarded shit?

[Anonymous No.18131873]

>>18131702
you are retarded there is nothing new under the sun

[Anonymous No.18131896]

>>18131873
it is true. also the term "incel" is an oxymoron as all celibacy is by definition voluntary.

[Anonymous No.18132178]

>>18131273
why should I read someone with that posture? serious question

[Anonymous No.18132241]

>>18131278
apparently correct but the object of mainstream porn is paradoxically to suspend the very goal of the act (sexual gratification) under layers of pseudo perversion to stimulate the desire, eg oedipal subgenres are evidently mainstream
I'd even go as far as to say it's supplanted hollywood in that regard as internet porn has extremely pervaded the average youth's sexual experience, almost an extricable part of their sexual development

[Anonymous No.18132264]

>>18131610
How do you know that wasn't what they desired, but until then were unable to articulate it, and the film simply gave then a way to better express their desire through mimicry

[Anonymous No.18132271]

>>18131559
jonh wick

[Anonymous No.18132302]

>>18132264
not that anon but I don't think innatism and symbolic mimicry are mutually exclusive
the scorpion jacket is just a textbook example of commodity fetishism
drive-goose embodies the introverted ideals, strong silent type, gets the girl etc and the jacket is a bridge to those ideals

[Anonymous No.18132318]

>>18132302
So how does that support the idea that cinema doesn't give people what they desire?

[Anonymous No.18132325]

>when you overanalyze movies

[Anonymous No.18132353]

>>18132318
>So how does that support the idea that cinema doesn't give people what they desire?
I haven't watch pervert's guide in years so I can't speak to what zizek meant but to answer the question in marxist terms re: commodity fetishism it only purports to give you what you desire, power, desirability etc
if the scorpion jacket was worn by a mook killed off by goose or any unattractive character it would lose its value immediately as a bridge to its marketed ideals

[Anonymous No.18132384]

Movies are integration propaganda. They give you the image of a global village inticing you to participate in it and adopt its lifestyle through the use of the myth, symbol, etc.

[Anonymous No.18132418]

>>18132353
>it only purports to give you what you desire, power, desirability etc
It's a movie. Only a slim psychotic fraction of the population believe that watching a movie about powerful desirable people will give the viewer power and desirability. Everyone else gets exactly what they desire from the commodity: entertainment.

[Anonymous No.18132424]

>>18132418
That would be true if you ignore the subconscious.

[Anonymous No.18132430]

>That would be true if you ignore the subconscious.

[Anonymous No.18132431]

>>18131547
I think there's something to be said about the way we fundamentally consume movies vis a vis books or novels. We're more critical when we're no bombarded with audio visual sensory experience, the linearity of it is inherently constrictive to your critical senses. It almost forces you to comply with its sensibilities, and its individual parts more often than not fail hilariously when isolated and taken apart.

[Anonymous No.18132437]

>>18132418
they don't think they're getting it but they get the fantasy of getting it. think about how much superhero movies play on creating "identifiable" characters, characters who people can see themselves as. so many movies straight up say "anyone can be a hero," which is obviously playing to the audience and telling them that they are empowered.

[Anonymous No.18132442]

>>18132418
>Only a slim psychotic fraction of the population believe that watching a movie about powerful desirable people will give the viewer power and desirability.
Well you just solved a multi billion dollar industry
marketing is entirely built on your subconscious interpretation of their symbols and translating them to commercial value
commercialism has entirely subsumed mainstream art and to try and debate that would, in my opinion, be gullible to say the least

[Anonymous No.18132443]

>>18132424
Presuming you mean the unconscious; yes. I ignore it just like everyone else does because by definition it is unconscious. Media producers and Freudo-Marxists know as much real usable information about the unconscious as plumber Joe. They're bullshit artists and sometimes they get lucky.

[Anonymous No.18132452]

>>18132431
I don't know, man. I'm critiquing a movie as I'm watching. If there are many faults at the end, I tend not to like it. You don't do that?

[Anonymous No.18132476]

>>18132443
>Media producers and Freudo-Marxists know as much real usable information about the unconscious as plumber Joe.
Complete hubris
you can empirically test and illicit an unconscious response in subjects and that's the entire basis for modern marketing
plumber Joe might think he's slick but he's just as easy to market to as your average tween browsing netflix and amazon

[Anonymous No.18132490]

>>18131273
>baby's first observation of mimetic desire

[Anonymous No.18132492]

>>18132437
>>18132442
Marketing is solely built upon the useful myth that it is effective. It is auto-referential and most of the time it does not work even at that. You are the gullible ones for buying into advertising's myth-making. Try talking to a real person about a movie sometime and see that facade of omnipotent unconscious manipulation crumble.

[Anonymous No.18132497]

>>18132476
>you can empirically test and illicit an unconscious response in subjects and that's the entire basis for modern marketing
And you think that's anything other than utter bullshit? They know it too.

[Anonymous No.18132501]

>>18132452
Everyone consumes, not everyone can critique. When you're watching a movie it's almost impossible to fully comprehend all its parts in a single viewing. You have to let yourself go, sort of unplug, in order to really "experience" the movie. Unless you go through scene by scene and constructing your own version of its screenplay you are consuming the movie on its own terms, in its own "words" so to speak.

[Anonymous No.18132503]

>>18132431
How can a man be so wrong?

[Anonymous No.18132506]

>>18131294
Our brains evolved to seek out new and novel things, this process is driven by the reward system in your brain using dopamine. Heightening your stresses, like anxiety, increase the effect of dopamine. Eventually your brain learns that you cannot watch the same thing over and over so the dopamine no longer effects you as much. Cinema hijacks this process to appeal to you instead of appealing to your prefrontal cortex which exerts your executive control. Cinema is mindless.

[Anonymous No.18132508]

>>18132497
ok, explain edward bernays' work then. was his marketing the most effective ever conceived just by sheer coincidence?

[Anonymous No.18132511]

>>18132503
>>18132241

[Anonymous No.18132526]

>>18132492
>>18132497
Marketing is one facet of it. Perception management is another. You're not only extremely gullible, but myopic in your denial of this sacrilegious trespass on the human mind. It's hubris.

[Anonymous No.18132532]

>>18132508
You think the people you are arguing with read non fiction? Please.

[Anonymous No.18132535]

>>18132506
But some studies have shown that humans love repetition, love familiarity, as opposed to loving novelty and innovation. That's why Hollyweird makes the same kind of movies all the time and most succeed.

[Anonymous No.18132545]

>>18132503
>>18132511
>effortless one liner reply
cringe
am I doing this right?

[Anonymous No.18132554]

>>18132535
I'm talking about exactly the same, like watching your favorite movie 10 times in a row and measuring how the dopamine effects you. There's also a chemical called CREB which is released to stop you from doing the same thing over and over again to achieve the same feeling which can also be abused. This isn't about love.

[Anonymous No.18132564]

>>18132545
>effortposting replies to bullshit statements
one needs to learn to pick one's battles

[Anonymous No.18132570]

>>18132564
haha yes I too win internet debates by simply calling out bullshit
no I don't need to elaborate on anything you're just retarded
deal with it

[Anonymous No.18132575]

>>18132508
Edward Bernays understood as much about the unconscious as the average /lit/ poster. This was patently obvious to anyone educated on the subject at the time and only after decades of self-mythologizing has his retarded scam been elevated by the people who stand to benefit from letting others believe the scam works. His success like that of all marketers and "perception managers" was wishful thinking and sheer coincidence.
>>18132526
>Perception management is another
Corporate buzzword that means nothing. Look at all this vague unscientific gibberish about manipulating and massaging the public and consider the basis of its thesis. Know who stands to benefit from the proliferation of that worldview? You gullible pseuds are just dejected technocrats.

[Anonymous No.18132585]

>>18132554
Is music mindless as well? There's very little difference between cinema and music. How does listening to music affect you?

[Anonymous No.18132600]

>>18132570
>every conversation is a debate
What's this, the Ben Shapiro syndrome? If you don't know how silly your points where without the need for another person, you are beyond hope.

[Anonymous No.18132602]

>>18132575
What exactly have you read on the topic?

[Anonymous No.18132628]

>>18132600
you cared enough to express contempt and rejection repeatedly when you could have articulated a more productive position
you're patently retarded and your reluctance to engage seriously speaks a lot about your position is all I'll say

[Anonymous No.18132636]

>>18132602
>this kills the /lit/ poster

[Anonymous No.18132648]

>>18132628
which one are you?

[Anonymous No.18132661]

>>18131273
>Cinema is the ultimate pervert art. It doesn't give you what you desire--it tells you how to desire
Dafuq kinda films are you watching?

[Anonymous No.18132671]

>>18132661
porno stuff

[Anonymous No.18132678]

>>18132585
I think cinema is unique in it's ability to influence people from presenting an artificial reality. Music is an extension of reality so whilst the dopamine reward system is applicable for novel and sameness, it doesn't take advantage of other evolutionary responses such as those that are benefiting groups and society - the social ones. Music is closer to objective for our minds to process.

[Anonymous No.18132696]

>>18132501
>When you're watching a movie it's almost impossible to fully comprehend all its parts in a single viewing. You have to let yourself go, sort of unplug, in order to really "experience" the movie.
I have never experienced this. I always know I'm watching a movie and my brain is constantly critiquing (and cringing) at what happens in them. If the "experience" has lots of faults, I can't let myself go and therefore I can't enjoy it.
>Unless you go through scene by scene and constructing your own version of its screenplay you are consuming the movie on its own terms, in its own "words" so to speak.
You could certainly watch a movie by parts. Pausing and continuing later on.

[Anonymous No.18132735]

>>18132678
How is music an extension of reality if it barely deals with one dimension (sound) while cinema deals with other dimensions (sound + images + language)? Cinema is closer to how we experience reality. Closer to objective than music, that's for sure. Even idiots dislike films, as opposed to being brainwashed or whatever like you say. Showing a particular point of view doesn't mean something is artific ial. Is your own personal experience artificial?

[Anonymous No.18132758]

>>18132735
You don't necessarily perceive through music you perceive of music, whilst cinema must be perceived through.

Music is not attempting to be closer to reality, whilst a movie is far from reality attempting to be reality.

I'm not talking about brainwashing, just influenced by. Influenced by the medium.

[Anonymous No.18132793]

>>18132661
superhero ones

[Anonymous No.18133011]

>>18132735
idk, does music try to create an alternate conception of reality? or does it make any real attempt to create a new image which dominates your image of reality? it might try to influence it or have "imagery" or something, but can it really make its own image?

[Anonymous No.18133456]

>>18133011
Yes. Especially for blind people.

[Anonymous No.18133568]

>>18133456
fair, but it seems like there's a clear distinction between narrative's ability to create a false image of reality and music's

[Anonymous No.18133666]

Cinema isnt art though.

[Anonymous No.18134136]

>>18132418
It's not about the individual viewers beliefs, it's about creating the collective knowledge of what a powerful and desirable person looks like. The viewer may not believe that that's what they are but they do learn how a personal like that looks, dresses and behaves. Together movies create the idea of what is normal, even if we individually don't believe it we know it's the common idea of society because it's the story we all see.

Rom-coms are bullshi but they ARE a romantic experience that is accessible to the all the public, thus becoming the common language. To reference real romance we would often say "it's not like in the movies"
Our personal reality is constantly in contrast to the public fantasy.

[Anonymous No.18134193]

>>18132585
>Is music mindless as well?
holy shit, no fucking way
>There's very little difference between cinema and music.
theres a whole lot of differences, you can make music easily, you can play with it, create it even in the most adverse situation and even if the industry doesnt know you or even hate you, you can put anything into that.
>How does listening to music affect you?
lymbic processess
dude, what the fuck, just read a little bit, your whole post is fucking ashaming

[Anonymous No.18134208]

>>18134193
>holy shit, no fucking way
So plastic radio pop is better than Bergman and Fellini? Music can definitely be mindless. Even more mindless than film because film at least requires some concentration.
>theres a whole lot of differences, you can make music easily, you can play with it, create it even in the most adverse situation and even if the industry doesnt know you or even hate you, you can put anything into that.
You can also do all of that in film.

[Anonymous No.18134531]

>>18131273
Does any art give you what you desire? Isn't the point of art to get you closer to the truth spiritually by any means possible? Quite often that is done by seeing things you don't want see and reading things you don't want to read.

[Anonymous No.18134928]

>>18132696
>I can pause and play movies
>therefore that is how they are normally consumed
>finding a movie cringe is the same as actively engaging its structure and visual prose
holy shit in a thread as embarrassing as this one this takes the cake

[Anonymous No.18135281]

>>18132178
>>>18131273 (OP)
>why should I read someone with that posture? serious question
This isn't the board for you, check out /tv/

[Anonymous No.18135313]

>>18132506
>>18132554
>There's also a chemical called CREB blah blah blah
bad neuroscience alert
Nigga you have less than a threshold dilettante's understanding of neuroscience. You have an incredibly broken misunderstanding of the role of dopamine in motivation and salience, as well as the relationship between reward and reinforcement. Stick to what you know.

By the way, you're thinking of ΔFosB. Pinning it on CREB is like pinning it on protein kinase A or cAMP itself.

[Anonymous No.18135382]

>>18131559
I knew a girl who was completely brainwashed by media. Movies and TV had utterly convinced her that she had to drink, do drugs, go to parties, and fuck dudes in high school or else she would be an incomplete human being or some shit. She didn't seem to want any of it for its own sake as much as she wanted to feel like she was living the fun and fulfilling life that media had romanticized.

[Anonymous No.18135403]

>>18132661
taxi driver: desire the death of degenerates

[Anonymous No.18135458]

>>18131273
Impressive that he manages to have the posture of a slug.