/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18104024]

fiction books are just as worthless as vidya
i cant bring myself to read a fiction book because i feel im wasting my time.
do you have a different opinion? why?

[Anonymous No.18104031]

All reading is just entertainment anyways so it doesn't matter

[Anonymous No.18104034]

Fictional books are useful because they depict life in practice and teach you empathy. Self-help or philosophy or whatever is hypothetical most of the time.

[Anonymous No.18104085]

>>18104024
It depends what fiction you’re reading. If it’s the Harry Potter books or other YA garbage or other fantasy then yeah. But equating all fiction to video-games is very retarded. There’s a reason that quite a few readers play games, but hardly any gamers read

[Anonymous No.18104113]

Everything is garbage

[Anonymous No.18104132]

>>18104031
not sure if based or just retarded
>>18104034
do you consider books a superior mean to express these things? I've watched movies that deeply affected me, if only for a while, and take 10% of the time compared to a book or game.
>>18104085
nah, I'm talking about dostoyevsky, books like the dune(that are obnoxiously long) and things like that
how can you justify so much time over something that's so meaningless?

[Anonymous No.18104142]

I went through some periods of time where I felt that way. But something clicked and I like reading fiction again. However I can only bring myself to read "classics" or highly praised, legitimately good modern books because like >>18104085 basically said, if you're reading trash you may as well just pick a different medium of art/entertainment. Reading novels that have been cultural touchstones throughout the centuries feels like I'm doing something at least somewhat worthwhile, productive, even if it is a fictitious work of art. Also great novels are often strongly influenced by important historical events and reflect the times, ideas and places they were written, so they almost serve as historical documents themselves

[Anonymous No.18104145]

>>18104132
adding to the "meaningless", I mean it as something unproductive. Games also fall at that category while hobbies don't because you're actually learning things, which you don't do with fictional stories (and if you do learn, there would be many better ways to learn it better/faster).

[Anonymous No.18104152]

I don't care, I just like reading. That's it, no justification required.

[Anonymous No.18104157]

>>18104145
Reading fiction keeps your mind sharper and learning more than many other forms of entertainment and hobbies, depending on the quality of fiction and what other hobbies

[Anonymous No.18104171]

>>18104132
>>18104145
>how can you justify so much time over something that's so meaningless?
>adding to the "meaningless", I mean it as something unproductive
Life is not meant to be optimized. Anything that you enjoy doing is not "meaningless."

[Anonymous No.18104181]

>>18104132
>how can you justify so much time over something that's so meaningless?
I think they're about as meaningless as everything else I do in life

[Anonymous No.18104203]

>>18104132
>do you consider books a superior mean to express these things?
Fictions gets your imagination working. It allows you to paint a picture in your head and it's interesting to observe your approach. It involves you in ways that films and viyda never do. Vidya can give you as much "lifepath" choices or multiple endings as it wants, it'll never be more powerful than your own imagination.

[Anonymous No.18104287]

>>18104171
>>18104181
I don't intend to say everything we do is meaningless/worthless or that we have to optimize everything. But many people here (I guess you can see on >>18104085) consider books (fiction) some sort of sacred high art.
I know they're the resident autists but there's a spec of truth in it, many people DO consider books that. That's why I created this thread, am I just wrong and fictional/fun books CAN teach me more than a game/movie/short or not?
>>18104142
The fact you read only highly praised works wouldn't mean you're doing it just for other people's approval? As in a way to prove (to you or others) that you're intellectually more valuable than other people?
>>18104157
I'm struggling with imagining a hobby that fits your criteria, unless your hobby is raging masturbation. Anything using your hands/body (fitness, woodworking, metalworking, etc) gives you a tangible and many times useful "reward" for your time. As about the mind, movies serve the same purpose.
Even music, if you learn how to appreciate it, WILL work out your brain.
>>18104203
In my experience, it only goes as far as imagining scenarios and people, I don't find that a "deep exercise of the mind".

Honestly, this thread is just a fun thought that I had since I really enjoy discussing things and I don't expect my mind to be changed but I'll try to keep my mind open to different things.
Reiterating my points,
>The payoff of a fictional book is lower than other hobbies or forms of art because of the usual time investment required (1000 pages vs 2 hours, etc)
>It's not superior as a way to exercise your mind because there are many other hobbies who will do the same, and if your goal is to make your mind sharp, you'd be reading something non-fictional/philosophical.
>There's no need to have a payoff over everything we do in life or to be 100% optimized (I lift and I'm currently eating my cheat meal), my question originated over the fact some people find fictional books way superior than other forms of art, which is hard for me to understand given the prior points mentioned.
Fictional books WERE the best option to entertain yourself in the past. Now it feels like just a niche for people with peculiar interests (or in the case of most people of this board, flex your pseudo high IQ).

[Anonymous No.18104355]

>>18104287
>The fact you read only highly praised works wouldn't mean you're doing it just for other people's approval? As in a way to prove (to you or others) that you're intellectually more valuable than other people

I mean, you can put it that way if you want and in a sense I guess you'd be slightly correct, but it's not that simple and it's not only that. I just don't have the time or energy to root through everything written to find hidden gems. Most of what's considered masterpieces of literature are actually very good even if my personal enjoyment isn't always directly proportional to the general acclaim of the novel. I read the ones that have subject matter and themes that interest me the most, not the ones I think would give me the most literary cred. And it's more about connecting with history and other people who read these books than it really is getting their approval, although I'd be lying if I said a piece of me wasn't hoping people are impressed if they do find out I'm "well read", but I don't go around advertising it IRL. And I should clarify that not everything I read is a classic or critics darling, I like science fiction too and dice deeper into that genre past the very top of the pyramid

[Anonymous No.18104409]

>>18104024
Many things are too complex to convey unless your reader has spent a lifetime studying it. Fiction exploits empathy and sympathy to convey these things to those who can not dedicate a lifetime to study.

[Anonymous No.18104479]

>>18104355
>not having time
fair enough, I also relate to that while watching movies. Unless someone recommended it to me I usually end up searching only high rated ones.
Also, what's your usual process when finding new books to read? Do you just search for acclaimed works in a general subject (like "best ww2 books") or you actually read the synopsis?
>>18104409
Could you mention some famous examples and what they allude to? That's an interesting opinion but I don't see how it could works in the real world.
For example, philosophical texts (which is what I think you're mainly talking about) can be somewhat dense but there are countless resources that help you figuring out what the intention of the writer was. And I do think they'd be far more enriching than simply having a basic and oversimplified "moral of the story" in a fictional piece.
I hope you can cite some books that do what you mentioned, I'll try to read some of them.

[Anonymous No.18104520]

>>18104479
There's this site called thegreatestbooks.com or something like that which pulls from dozens of different greatest books lists, which cover things like "greatest books of all time", "greatest books of the 20th century" or "best British novels" and so on and so forth, then combines all these lists into one big list where books that appeared on more lists score higher and different lists having more value than others. I went through pages and pages of that, hundreds of books and just picked the ones that sounded interesting to me and left the ones that sounded boring. I don't think this list is objectively correct or anything, but as a rough guide it seemed good and I figured if the book already appeals to me because of subject matter/themes/origin or what, and it's well regarded, then odds are pretty high I'll like it. Plus, that site was pulling from many different sources, which makes bias less of an issue

You could always do what you suggested too and search by subject, country of origin, style of writing and so on

[Anonymous No.18104533]

>>18104520
That website doesn't seem to exist anymore (unless I typed it wrong) and it's, in fact, for sale. Someone should buy it and do what you said.

[Anonymous No.18104538]

>>18104533
Nah, just searched it and it's https://www.thegreatestbooks.org/
I'm reading it rn, seems interesting.
Thank you.

[Anonymous No.18104547]

>>18104533
Yeah it was .org not .com my bad

https://thegreatestbooks.org/

[Anonymous No.18104578]

>>18104024
There's theoretical reading and practical reading. Reading to learn about an ancient culture, philosophy, learning a skill,etc. These are all examples of practical reading. I quit video games because I grew out of them and the market is stale and hates it's consumers. There's still plenty of great works of fiction, enough to read over several life times so I don't have to worry about them infesting this pool of media.

[Anonymous No.18104585]

>>18104479
>Could you mention some famous examples
No idea as to what is famous. If someone from London, or New York, or Berlin wanted to understand the lives of people in rural India or Africa they would have to study a great deal about their society, their life, their hisitory and the society around them. Fiction acknowledges that on a base level people are all pretty much the same and draws on those commonalities to evoke empathy, provide the background, provide the common situations and let the reader connect what is common to see how it is different for people in different situation, through sympathy we learn empathy.

Personally I would say philosophy is understanding the situation without the emotion, well done fiction gives the situation and evokes the emotion. Neither are better than the other, just different, one about idea, one about emotion and the line between is very blurry.

As too books which do this well, it is different for every person, empathy is not an exact science after all. Some that did it well for me; Germinal, Growth of the Soil, The Pale King, So The Wind Wont Blow it All Away, Mr. Palomar. Once you find a sort of fiction which does it for you, you will likely find it easier to find worth in other fiction, empathy needs to be exercised just as much as muscle.

[Anonymous No.18105228]

>>18104287
You're more concerned with how others perceive fiction than in what fiction has to offer, concerned how others would perceive you if you gave yourself fully to reading fiction than actually reading fiction

[Anonymous No.18105243]

>>18104024
This is the shit I have been struggling with. Its hard to get motivated to read fiction when it is worthless in most ways.

[Anonymous No.18105324]

>>18105228
not even close, that doesn't even make sense because in almost every social circle reading books trump over all other hobbies or forms of art.
did you ever get mocked or given weird stares for having read homer or dostoyevsky?
i say i prefer movies over fictional books because they're more compact and serve the same exact purpose which is to entertain. investing time (which you objectively are) into a 1200 page fiction book while you could've read multiple books that could enrich your mind or taught a new skill seems like a bad investment. and that's why I made this thread, to see some opinions that differ from mine, not to receive anonymous approval of what i spend my time with.

[Anonymous No.18105351]

>>18105324
reiterating for the third time, you don't have to efficiently allocate 100% of the time. That's outside the scope of this discussion.
the main point is that you can have the same reward, entertainment, through faster(and in my subjective opinion, better) means. ending up in a lot of ""wasted"" time which you could've used to either entertain yourself more or improve in some way.

[Anonymous No.18105519]

>>18104132
productivity for productivity's sake is bugmen tier

[Anonymous No.18105544]

>>18105519
incredible argument and powerful reasoning

[Anonymous No.18105612]

>>18104024
You're more or less thinking like Plato there. He claimed art has no share of truth, and is therefore inferior to philosophy. But I don't know, art has a hierarchy. No one would claim the Teletubbies is worth just the same as Dostoevsky. High quality art points to something deep about humanity or reality or both that lesser art does not. This knowledge does not appear valueless to me, but that leads to the issue of what has value and what doesn't.

[Anonymous No.18106500]

>>18105612
It's an interesting view but I wouldn't assume it doesn't have a share of truth in it. Honestly I find it hard for anyone to claim that.
While I believe it is inferior to philosophy, it's only inferior when related to LEARNING philosophy (which is kinda obvious but still) it may have some (or maybe even a lot) of philosophical questions and within the context of the novel it may even be easier to convey their meaning when compared to the original works they were derived from but the price you pay is time. It's just not a good ratio.
Movies can also "teach while entertaining" almost as much within a much smaller period, that's why I find it hard to justify investing in long fictional stories since they're not great at anything.
If I want to entertain myself, I'd watch a movie/play a game/listen to a song. If I wanted to learn, I'd read a book about the subject I'm interested in.
>high quality art
well indeed, but no one would claim that Diary of a Wimpy Kid is worth just the same as Citizen Kane.
>value
it is indeed subjective, but tell me, did you ever acquire any valuable knowledge from a fictional novel you couldn't acquire faster/more with the original work(s)?

[Anonymous No.18106507]

>>18104024
You found the time to type this post, my guess is your time isn't as valuable as you think.

[Anonymous No.18106509]

>>18104024
>I'm posting on /lit about fiction being a waste of time. I'm so fucking edgy.

[Anonymous No.18106514]

>>18106507
>>18106509
seems we're at the cringy kids hours
check the entire thread and see if anyone's trolling, this is a simple discussion over a subject i'm interested in.

[Anonymous No.18106533]

>>18104024
You are fucking dead inside


good video games and books are purest form of escapism and adventure unless you're rich and can paly Indiana Jones IRL or know how to astral travel

t. 36 yo married man and father of two

[Anonymous No.18106537]

>>18106514
We get it, you want to circlejerk about your illusion of a productive self, you're like a kid who just watched Wolf of Wall Street and thinks he's hot shit.
Did you get past the introduction of the "productive book" you're reading yet or did you stop mid-way to come shitpost on /lit/? Go find your adolescent moment of truth on /b/ or /pol/.

[Anonymous No.18106556]

>>18106537
read the thread
this is the last (you) i'll give you. you should work harder on your bait.
>>18106533
Escapism is a good reason, and it probably gets even better when you have a long book since you know you can live in that space for a long time. You're the first one mentioning it.
I'm not that dead inside, I just have this opinion and wanted to see if other people felt the same.

[Anonymous No.18106564]

>>18104024
Mod needs to start banning these underaged Twitter tourists, otherwise we'll soon go down the same zoomer shithole as /tv/, /v/ or /mu/.

[Anonymous No.18106587]

Fiction is the only truth

[Anonymous No.18106629]

>>18106514

>I need people to tell me literature isn't just escapism because I can't tell the difference between Jane Austin and Danielle Steele
>Video games are a waste of time because every waking moment can be spent woodworking while listening to Death Grips
>I think "all reading is just entertainment so it doesn't matter" is an interesting point (because taxing your brain reading Heidegger is on the same level as reading a BuzzFeed article about which Disney Prince you match up with most)

In all seriousness though, I'll give you a tip. Usually when someone is condescending towards something--it's because they suck at it. Take sports. A lot of nerds will act like they're meaningless and a waste of time...but that's really because they've never been good at one and hide behind intellectual pride. Lame platitudes go well with poor attitudes.

And I never said you were trolling...you're just an idiot.

[Anonymous No.18106641]

>>18106629
>Lame platitudes go well with poor attitudes.
Sweet, I'm stealing that.

[Anonymous No.18106643]

>i feel im wasting my time
You have been brainwashed by people who want to steal the joy of life away from you and make you into an unfeeling worker. Your life should not center around productivity for the sake of productivity.

[Anonymous No.18106685]

>>18106629
you're clearly misunderstanding the whole point of the thread.
ill be a good guy and help you out buddy, even though you act like an asshole.
>literature is an escapism
never said literature was only that as a whole, but it's a great part of fiction books.
>video games
same level as fiction books, their main goal is to remove you from your current life and transport you to somewhere different even if it is for just a while.
>all reading is just entertainment
where did i ever say that?
maybe youre stupid enough that you cant tell people apart by the way they write, do you want me to namefag so it's easier for you to understand?
>heidegger
this proves my assumption, you didn't even bother to read the thread. you cite a philosopher when I'm solely talking about fiction books.
actually you didn't even bother to read my last post before saying shit.

maybe yeah, you came in here blind and started acting condescending towards me. proves your point.
lame platitudes do go well with poor attitudes, jerk.

[Anonymous No.18106691]

>>18104024
then kill yourself, why do you need to be born to hate shit

[Anonymous No.18106694]

>>18104024
they are worthless time wasters if you don't intend on becoming a writer (or an academic that studies literature)

[Anonymous No.18106699]

>>18104132
just end your life sheesh, who even gives a fuck about your life anyway, if you can't have fun, what's the worth of living it anyways,

>>18104024
just make sure OP to film yourself while you point you shotgun on your pathetic mouth on rekt threads, see you there on >>gif

[Anonymous No.18106700]

now i know the time the kids on lit show up to derail perfectly good threads.
nice

[Anonymous No.18106707]

>>18106700
Europe is waking up.

[Anonymous No.18106727]

>>18106700
>goodthreads.jpg
>>stupidtopic.jpg
since when stupid questions make good threads, wew

[Anonymous No.18106728]

reminder to kys if you assign external utilitarian values to the only good thing in life, pure aesthetic pleasure

[Anonymous No.18106742]

>>18106685
>you're clearly misunderstanding the whole point of the thread
No, I'm making fun of how stupid the thread is...you're basically asking people to tell you what to think alongside making a dumbass bait comment.
>never said literature was only that as a whole
Never said you did. It's just a good point to make to underscore the low-level bullshit you're encouraging.
>where did i ever say that?
"Not sure if based or just retarded" (Even though everyone on here is named Anon, pretty sure that was you. Oh, I just realized something...you're too much of a moron to extrapolate; probably why you don't realize you're a retard)
>heidegger
I was referring to your confusion as to whether "all reading is just entertainment anyways" is a based/retarded comment

But yes, I am 100% being condescending towards you. I'll be even more condescending by asking you to look up "platitude" because you just used it incorrectly. I'm a firm believer in (pic related).

[Anonymous No.18106744]

The escape you need is the barrel of a shotgun my guy, don't forget to upload it on rekt threads, we want to see your pathetic life in full action, so that I can remind myself not to be pathetic as your life right now, damn,

[Anonymous No.18106752]

>>18106685
>>18106742
>Usually when someone is condescending towards something--it's because they suck at it

P.S. I wanted to add I'm being condescending towards being retarded. Wrap your head around that zinger.

[Anonymous No.18106763]

>>18106514
OP: "check the entire thread and see if anyone's trolling"

>half of the comments after that are calling OP a retard or asking him to kill himself

[Anonymous No.18106772]

>>18106763
yep, that's a single guy.
he probably just woke up and decided to flame the first thread he saw.

[Anonymous No.18106792]

>>18106691
>>18106699
>>18106707
>>18106727
>>18106744

Not me.

>>18106742
>>18106752
>>18106763

Me. How did you ever figure that one out Poirot? Oh, maybe I'm replying in a chain? To comments directed at my other comments? Wow! Please, explain to us the differences between video games and literature (and also why it's acceptable to sometimes waste time on ?frivolous? pursuits.

[Anonymous No.18106894]

>>18104024
For me personally, fiction books seem to be the only form of media that consistently provides the feeling of somewhat understanding the human condition. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that we create these perceptions of the characters and scenery in our heads which makes it personally compelling. Video games and Films fill in those gaps of perception which can take away from the individual's experience.

The type of fiction that you pick up is also important where quality > quantity. It's not like I pick up new books to chase that feeling of knowing how hilarious, beautiful sad the different aspects of our lives can be, but when it comes to me, it's like a burst of inspiration for my paintings.

It seems like you are trying to gain something from reading. I can confirm that it is worthwhile and that you definitely can if you are the creative type. Otherwise, just read for fun.

Oh yeah and one last thing, you sound fucking insufferable. Stop trying to find meaning in everything you do. You do realize you're allowed to enjoy things for what they are right?

[Anonymous No.18107638]

>>18104024
I agree. Once you take the nonfictionpill you can't go back

[Anonymous No.18107696]

>>18104024
Reading DUH CLASSICS may be fiction but they were the way SMART people who inluenced RICH people to waste their time. It's also why I play golf with my boomer Dad even though there's no chance of me being able to afford it on my own or when Im his age given the world is literally collapsing around me.
Just makes you better in conversation and I need that famitchi

[Anonymous No.18107704]

>>18107638
This. I learned how to fix plumbing, electronics, program time savings, trade commodities, fuck bitches, get money, practice romantic chastity with effective Chad Dad skills because of Nonfiction. Fiction just made me feel good for a short while like a pleasant conversation with people who are going to be useless to me anyway

[Anonymous No.18107707]

>>18104024
Why do you think entertainment is worthless? Should one only do things that are productive towards a goal? What is wrong with leisure?

You sound like a lazy person who is becoming aware of how much time they have wasted.

[Anonymous No.18107717]

>>18106629
I bet you scored high on your verbal SAT. I scored low on verbal and high on Math. Because of Math I read the Bell Curve and other statistical polemics and got the data on psychometrics in the expected quantities as best can be sampled to anticipate what you could with verbal IQ. I don't have heritage, cultural canon, any old ancestral wisdom. I just have raw chink in a vaccum processing power that can churn numbers on floating chalkboards. I wish I could read Duh CLASSICS without anxiety but the world around me, Clown World can only be scared off with Math torches. I can never articulate well but I can plan and execute.

[Redberry pie c: No.18108402]

I like thinking Stephen King is teaching me how to survive.

[Anonymous No.18108486]

>>18105243
Do you take no pleasure from reading?

[Anonymous No.18108775]

>>18106500
> did you ever acquire any valuable knowledge from a fictional novel you couldn't acquire faster/more with the original work(s)?

Yeah, I'm not sure what original work if any, maps to Moby Dick or The Brother's Karamazov, and I don't think there's any movie or game that covers the same ground either, and that's just two novels.

[Anonymous No.18108787]

>>18108402
Joke's on you, he's teaching you how to be a spiteful pedophile.

[Anonymous No.18108790]

>>18104024
Anything that doesnt improve your statua or financial well being or isnt a direct enjoyment of fruits from increase in said categories is a waste of time. Everything else is pure cope.

[Anonymous No.18109157]

ITT:
People who have not read a great enjoyable novel to just sit down and read.

Ya niggas don't know how to get lost in a good work anymore. Thinking too much, prolly scratching yourself every 2 minutes because so focused on every little sensation and feel. Can't even get transported to other worlds no mo', damn, bruhs.

[Anonymous No.18109561]

>>18107717
I majored in math and made fun of engineers who panicked because they couldn't write essays.

[Anonymous No.18109598]

>>18104024
Congratulations you cracked the code

[Anonymous No.18109601]

>>18104287
>But many people here (I guess you can see on >>18104085 #) consider books (fiction) some sort of sacred high art.
No one had said that and stop moving the goalpost.

[Anonymous No.18109607]

>>18104132
Gravity's Rainbow taught me calculus

[Anonymous No.18109670]

>>18107717