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/lit/ - Literature

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18089659 No.18089659 [Reply] [Original]

I'm considering skipping the romans (except virgil for dante) and heading straight to christianity (i've read the greeks already)

convince me not to do this

>> No.18089667

>>18089659
jtdr

>> No.18089671

But you should do that

>> No.18089679

Dante uses Ovid a titanic amount, along with Lucan and various others, Ovid in general is one of the greatest poets this world has ever produced, being a primary favorite of Shakespeare even. There is also a ton of value in dudes like Horace which you need only read a short ode or two of to see if you’re interested.

>> No.18089683

>>18089659
Although Romans hardly had any philosophy of their own they expanded on many themes from Greek philosophy. As the extant fragments of the Atomists and Epicurus are very vague and scarce I'd argue that Lucretius' De Rerum Natura is actually a better source on ancient atomism/materialism and hedonism than both so I'd say you need to read Lucretius. If you're interested in Christianity you should also at the very least read some Roman stoics particularly Seneca and Marcus Aurelius. Throw some Cicero into the mix and there's nothing of value left in Roman philosophy

>> No.18089704

>>18089659
The Christians read a lot of Roman writers like Cicero and Roman-era Greeks like Sextus Empiricus and these things will also be important references later on.

>> No.18089714

>>18089683
>>18089679
>>18089704
alright fine. I actually lied, I've read virgil already (eclogues, georgics and the aeneid) i just find the romans to be weirdly alien to the type of sensibilities I've developed reading the greeks (and being essentially illiterate prior to this). are there any introductory texts I should read to understand them better or do I just go for it?

>> No.18089718

>>18089659
You have to read Ovid's The Metamorphoses.
It's one of the most important written works in history

>> No.18089729

>>18089659
I can do little to convince the coffee-adled zombies of this world such as yourself, but I will try. Compared to tea, it is not at all good for you, although the difference is lesser when referring to black coffee. Nonetheless, tea has less caffeine in it which means you won't become psychotic from sleep deprivation

>> No.18089744

>>18089659
Catullus, Horace, Ovid, Virgil, Caesar, Lucretius, Tacitus, Lucan, Juvenal, Seneca, Petronius, Apuleius, Marcus Aurelius are all worth reading. You can choose only the ones that interest you if you don't have time.

>>18089683
A lot of Roman philosophy did not survive. It was intrinsically Pagan and the Christians threw it away. But you're right, those 4 are the only actual philosophers we can read nowadays.

>> No.18089751

>>18089659
jt;dr

>> No.18089759

>>18089714
I’d just hop into the ones that interest you a long with reading the introduction essays on whatever you’re reading, more annotations the better also.

>> No.18089782

>>18089744
>A lot of Roman philosophy did not survive. It was intrinsically Pagan and the Christians threw it away.
Source?

>> No.18089806

>>18089782
Cicero for example, or De Civitate Dei.

>> No.18089831

>>18089744
I've read Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, and Marcus Aurelius. All of them very impressive. I was surprised by Caesar. He made it very clear to me that I either get my shit together or someone else will get it together for me

>> No.18089846

>>18089806
What do you mean ‘Cicero for example’? We have lots of his work. and in fact at least one of the works that was lost was highly esteemed by Christians (Augustine in particular, and I think also Boethius).

>> No.18089930

>>18089846
We know there were more philosophers for the simple reason that they are mentioned. They are mentioned by Cicero, Augustine, or in the historical accounts. The Scipionic Circle for example counted many names of thinkers and literates of which the works are vastly lost. It is quite obvious, after all, that Cicero and Seneca can't be the only philosophers in 1200 years of history.

Also, the ones we can read are five. There's Epictetus too, we almost forgot him.

>> No.18089974

>>18089659
Yes, Jezebel posters should get the rope

>> No.18089982

>>18089930
Yes of course many works were lost but it seems unjustified to attribute that primarily to Christians deliberately tossing them out

>> No.18089992

>>18089659
I would breed her like a farm animal

>> No.18090013

>>18089659
Why would you do that? I think you should read history of philosophy instead to understand how the line of intellectual thought expanded across centuries. You will see that there wouldn't be any Christian dogma without Romans.

>> No.18090016

>>18089982
What else could be then? Christians decided what had to be copied and preserved in libraries and what not.

>> No.18090037

>>18090016
>Christians decided what had to be copied and preserved in libraries and what not.
In an era of widespread socioeconomic decline. And texts got lost before Christianity as well. The ancient world was a rather precarious place for the replication and dissemination of texts.

>> No.18090045

>>18090016
I'm not him but it's possible that several works were simply lost or destroyed by accident. We know about several works by ancient Greek philosophers including Aristotle which are lost to time yet Christians didn't exist then.

>> No.18090086

>>18090016
That's not how book survival works, especially in times before printing
For one, books generally had a very short lifespan in general and even popular works often didn't outlive their own authors
Suetonius specifically talks about extant and non-extant works of people that lived within a century of his own lifetime, Martial likewise touches on the ephemeral nature of books
Secondly, interconnectedness of the western empire completely broke down, a lot of books were simply lost not because there was noone that wanted to copy but because there wasn't anyone to do it or who had the resources
Thirdly, how could Christians in good consciousness copy and commentate on fucking Aristophanes but think Cicero is too controversial. Why is Lucretius extant? Why is Zeus the Tragedian extant?
There's also a randomness to it, Silius Italicus, a very mediocre poet, for instance has left us a pretty big work that no-one really liked and only modern academics bored with their lives try to shill
The Dionysiad, a work the size of the Ramayana, survived despite being written by literally who in southern Egypt in Christian times

>> No.18090109

>>18090086
Very informative post anon, thank you

>> No.18090151

>>18089930
>Also, the ones we can read are five. There's Epictetus too, we almost forgot him.
Doesn't he count as a Greek?
But if he is counted as a Roman he should be read, certainly. He was a better philosopher than Marcus Aurelius (Marcus Aurelius would agree with this). He is just less famous because he wasn't a big historical figure.

>> No.18090172

>>18090086
>>18090045
>>18090037
I know how book survival worked. Mine was a rhetorical question. No matter how you word it, the point is that most Roman philosophy did not survive because Christians didn't know what to make of it. Greek philosophy was more fortunate because its metaphysical speculation laid the foundations for Christian dogmas and mystics. There may be other factors, of course, but they're trifling and it's ridiculous to speculate on how a scroll could have gone lost "by accident". Does it really matter? No, what matters is that the Christians at some point were the new ruling class and they decided what had to be copied and preserved and what not. You should not be puzzled or dubious about this, it's still literally the same nowadays. There are books from 50 or 60 years ago that are out of print and almost vanished because of some stupid publisher who didn't care to do anything for them.

>> No.18090220

>>18090172
Then why do so many works that heavily contradict Christian doctrine survive?
I fail to see how Lucretius or Lucian's Zeus the Tragedian lay the metaphysics of Greek philosophy

>> No.18090221

>>18089659
BOOBA I SAW

>> No.18090268

>>18090220
You can use the "accidentality" argument to explain the survival of works that weren't supposed to survive, but you can't use it the other way around. The lost works are so many that the Christian role has to be necessarily considered decisive. Following your argument, there is no explanation as to why so much Greek philosophy survived while the Roman thinkers are to be counted on one hand. The Law of Chance doesn't work like this.

>> No.18090272
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18090272

>>18089659

Why not dip into Juvenal?

>> No.18090280

>>18089659
Imagine how easy and pleasant the life would be if you looked like this

>> No.18090295

>>18090280
She has some bowel issues and uses a colostomy bag

>> No.18090296

>>18090172
>>18090268
What Roman philosophy are you talking about? All the major strands of philosophy represented in Cicero’s De Natura Deorum have works that have survived

>> No.18090299

>>18089974
>>18089992
>>18090221
>>18089751
>>18090280
It's ugly, stop being so weak.

>> No.18090314

>>18090295
I’m 31 and will never have sex

>> No.18090325

>>18090296
I don't know what you're talking about. We were discussing about why there are 4 experienceable philosophers in the whole history of pre-Christian Roman literature.

>> No.18090356

>>18090314
Not with that mindset

>> No.18090361

She looks like she has some demons and lacks good sleep but I’d murder that pussy.

>> No.18090377

>>18090361
no shit

>> No.18090541

>>18089659
>Skipping Ovid’s spare words on the Golden Age
>For a delirious death cult
Waste your life.

>> No.18090724
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18090724

>>18089659
Consider reading your brain on porn.
Seek help or ngmi
https://youtu.be/uhJ9j0w0prU
https://youtu.be/RuCDwgWna4o
https://youtu.be/xJaE77y-XjQ

>> No.18090869

>>18089982
Christians are the primary reason the Latin Classics survived. You must 18 to post here anon.

>> No.18091223

booba

>> No.18091385

>>18090299
She's not ugly; she'd fucking gorgeous.

>> No.18091477

>>18089659
I want to get my lusty hands on her

>> No.18091827

>>18089992
Based primal instincts haver