/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18061307]

>His epistemology doesn't recognize the Nous and he thinks knowledge is fallible

[Anonymous No.18061324]

[Anonymous No.18061325]

>>18061307
Yes, pretty much.

[Anonymous No.18061357]

>>18061324
>Putting Martin "My farts scare away the devil" Luther on the same level as Gregory Palamas

[Anonymous No.18061422]

>>18061357
True, what does Palamas's farts scare away? A fly maybe, if even that. While Luther's pungent gas scares away the prince of darkness himself. You can't compare the two.

[Anonymous No.18061506]

>>18061357
One was an original thinker, the other was just a rip off of (fake) Dionysius the Areopagite who was a rip off of Neoplatonism

[Anonymous No.18061548]

>>18061307
>his entire philosophy is just a post-hoc justification of Christianity

[Anonymous No.18061556]

>>18061307
This guy unironically thinks that Noah's flood caused canyons on mars. Imagine following a literal retard like Jay Dyer.

[Anonymous No.18061563]

>>18061307
Jay Dyer isn't even Orthodox. Presuppositionalism is calvinistic and therefore not Orthodox.

[Anonymous No.18061572]

>>18061556
>This guy unironically thinks that Noah's flood caused canyons on mars
Prove it didn't

[Anonymous No.18061591]

>>18061307
what do you see as the nouse?

[Anonymous No.18061596]

>>18061556
That is what happens when you're only concerned with being internally consistent.
>IT FITS IN MY SYSTEM!

[Anonymous No.18061598]

>>18061591
The Nous is what you participate in to gain knowledge

[Anonymous No.18061609]

>>18061563
Huh? How does using presuppositionalism remove you from Orthodoxy?

[Anonymous No.18061616]

>>18061563
We need to go back to the days where people just dismissed not believing in God as retarded because there's no way to live consistently with the view that reality is fundamentally without purpose

[Anonymous No.18061630]

>>18061609
He shits on Orthodox Christians for using Thomism all the time because it's catholic. Also I think it's pretty obvious that presuppositionalism presupposes total depravity.

[Anonymous No.18061640]

I got banned from his server multiple times because Islamic theology made his look bad

[Anonymous No.18061646]

>>18061630
>presuppositionalism presupposes total depravity
How

[Anonymous No.18061651]

>>18061640
Has Dyer debated a Muslim?

[Anonymous No.18061657]

>>18061630
The funny thing is that the Orthodox actually loved Thomism back in the 18th Century and fully adopted the scholastic method before Palamas got dredged back up in the early 20th Century and was used as a weapon for anti-Catholic polemic by Lossky, Bulgakov and Meyendorff.

[Anonymous No.18061662]

>>18061651
Sure but only those unfamiliar with his theology. Being that I'm ex Orthodox I'm a little harder to confuse

[Anonymous No.18061670]

>>18061662
>Converting from Orthodoxy to Islam
Why? I see absolutely nothing in Islam that strikes me as being more consistent than Christianity. If you don't like the Trinity just become a Neoplatonist, don't burden yourself with Mohammads bullshit.

[Anonymous No.18061672]

>>18061651
Yes, he debated Dr Shabir Ally and Paul Williams, although the question was ‘Is Jesus God’ for both of them. It’s pretty unanimous that he won both. In a couple months he’s debating Shaykh Asrar Rashid on Christology vs Allah’s attributes iirc.

[Anonymous No.18061680]

>>18061640
Lol what argument did you use against him?

[Anonymous No.18061687]

>>18061572
>>This guy unironically thinks that Noah's flood caused canyons on mars
>Prove it didn't

[Anonymous No.18061691]

>>18061687
Oh no a brainlet wojak, I am defeated

[Anonymous No.18061698]

>>18061670
I researched Islam extensively as an Orthodox to convert Muslims, far more than Dyer did. Neoplatonism is definitely not Tawheed

>>18061680
I didn't even get to that point, their whole schtick was just that because Allah is said to not resemble creation Muslims can't know anything about him and Islam is therefore wrong. Then I said but Dionysius the Areopagite also says this and a guy called me an idiot and said so we both go to hell that doesn't defend Islam. So I explained as slowly as I could that existence in creation is spatial and temporaral and when something isn't we say it lacks existence, it's a figment (like Winnie the Pooh). But Allah we know exists but is not spatial or temporal, preceding spacetime, so obviously when we ascribe existence to Him it doesn't resemble existence as we use the term in creation but yet we know it. Then they tried to define existence as being (which Islamic theology often does) but I pointed out the distinction between hypostasis and ousia in Ortho Theology is the distinction between existence and being so this disproves the Trinity and they banned me

[Anonymous No.18061707]

>>18061646
Van Til and Bahnsen said that the non-Christians suppress the truth in unrighteousness because they are totally depraved, and since they are totally depraved they can not be convinced through rational argument but once the holy spirit monergistically regenerates them then they come to christ. I have no idea why an Orthodox Christian would try to import that apologetic but the judge Orthodox Christians who are more Thomistic when to me it seems way easier to “amputate” Aquinas from catholicism then it would be to “amputate” Van Til from calvinism. Van til and Bahnsen literally said that “our theology is our apologetic”.

[Anonymous No.18061709]

>>18061698
Based. Orthodogs btfo

[Anonymous No.18061730]

>>18061707
>since they are totally depraved they can not be convinced through rational argument
But isn’t presuppositional argumentation rational though? It’s not like Bahnsen and co just ‘witnessed’ to atheists in debate

[Anonymous No.18061758]

>>18061730
They did witness to atheists but there is a difference between evangelizing and doing apologetics.

[Anonymous No.18061769]

>>18061698
>I researched Islam extensively as an Orthodox to convert Muslims, far more than Dyer did.
What did you find compelling about Islam?

[Anonymous No.18061781]

>>18061769
The theology and the comprehensive narrative and morality. It's like the Bible was completely overhauled to be dynamic and consistent. Prophets in Islam actually have a very fundamental place, Noah and Abraham and Moses are serious role models whereas in Christianity they're really not and one is not sure what to make of a lot of what is said about them. Rather saints/fathers fill the void that prophets fill in Islam

[Anonymous No.18061786]

>>18061758
Wouldn’t a totally depraved atheist be completely impervious by any argument on Earth though? If van Til was consistent with his theology he wouldn’t have done debates right? I think I’m misunderstanding this desu. Also what do you think of Dyer’s TAG argument? His discussion with Dr Malpass seemed to be a stalemate.

[Anonymous No.18061799]

>>18061781
>It's like the Bible was completely overhauled to be dynamic and consistent
Interesting because I've read the Quran and found it anything but consistent. The only parts that make sense are the parts ripped from Christian scripture while the parts Mohammad added make very little sense or are him transparently abusing his status as "prophet" to gain special privileges. Add tot he fact that his followers immediately collapsed into warring tribes upon his death I find it very difficult to see anyone managing to sustain an argument that Islam is guided by providence.

[Anonymous No.18061827]

>>18061799
You should listen to lectures on the prophets first to understand the narrative (because remember the Qur'an itself was passed orally in the context of many surrounding teachings and stories provided)

His personal followers didn't collapse at all, actually it was the tribes that gave him allegiance due to his victories (most of Arabia) that said okay, we're done now that he's dead, we're still Muslims but we have our own leaders. Abu Bakr then led the original followers against heavy odds to defeat them all and keep the Muslims and integrated state

[Anonymous No.18061875]

>>18061786
Bahnsen said that the apologetics fulfills two functions. The first is a pastoral role (to help believers grow in the faith) and the second is to “shut the mouth of the unbeliever”.
Issues of total depravity aside I think the fact that Jay Dyer can just use presup with the church fathers demonstrates the extreme flexibility of presup and also I feel like Dyer is reading the fathers through a postkantian lenses.

[Anonymous No.18061877]

>>18061827
>His personal followers didn't collapse at all
Wasn't there a divide almost immeadietly Mohammed died? Between Ali, and other guy who's name I don't remember. They reconsiled, until old wound was reopened again, which started the divide between the shia and the sunni.

[Anonymous No.18061880]

>>18061307
Did he debate Jews?

[Anonymous No.18061939]

>>18061875
>reading the fathers through a postkantian lenses.
Wdym

[Anonymous No.18061963]

>>18061877
No, that's the Shia narrative but it's very weak. Ali publicly praised Abu Bakr and Umar and married his daughter to the latter. Shia agree but they say it was taqiyyah and really Ali hated them but they use extremely weak narrations from known liars arguing liars can tell the truth and only their mullahs know the esoteric truth so they have to accept any Hadith supporting it. Abu Bakr was much much older than Ali and Muhammad's ﷺ best friend since before Islam. The idea that a twenty something Ali would lead the whole Ummah is very ridiculous. Ali of course was considered a spectacular leader but he was made leader only when he was older

[Anonymous No.18061986]

>>18061963
Ali wasn't really a "spectacular leader" desu

[Anonymous No.18061988]

>>18061548

[Anonymous No.18062008]

>>18061986
He wasn't as good as Umar but he was also handed a much worse situation. His leadership abilities prior to his being Khalifah are very well attested to and he did much better than just about anyone else could with what he was given

[Anonymous No.18062274]

>>18061880
No. He probably would if any were willing to take up the challenge. Jews don't really debate though since they don't actively look to convince people to convert. Whether or not Judaism is the true faith its something you're born into anyway.