/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18014914]

For someone who just wants to rekindle his relationship with the church, what can I do to make it happen without turning into a walking pathetic meme like some people of my age are?

[Anonymous No.18014920]

You sound insufferable

[Anonymous No.18014924]

>>18014914
Actually read scripture and theology. That puts you in the top 99%.

[Anonymous No.18014927]

>>18014914
Get a KJV Bible and start preaching on college campuses.

[Anonymous No.18014941]

>>18014924
For recommendations of good places to start:
The Bible (obviously)
The Summa
An Exorcist Tells His Story
Mere Christianity

These aren't any eclectic high brow picks, but just widely read and praised Christian works.

[Anonymous No.18014944]

>>18014914
>rekindle his relationship with the church
Don't. Do >>18014924 instead. Develop spiritually and intellectualy instead of getting involved with the rotten institution. What do you even want from church? Socializing and getting le pure tradwife? All the church girls above 16 were fucked by high school chads already.

[Anonymous No.18014956]

>>18014914

Attend church without being too self-conscious about it. Try to immerse yourself in the practice in a non-ironic way, and read the great works of theology (with faithful commentators if need be) to supplement the intellectual side of things, if you need it. Faith is a living thing, and you need to grasp it and swim in it as much as abstractly understand it.

[insufferable op No.18014970]

>>18014920
Sometimes I am. Sorry for the inconvenience.

>>18014924
>>18014941
I heard there are many versions of the Bible and not all include what the church considers canon. Any leads? Also, thanks for the works you listed.

>>18014944
An institution can be reformed. Quality over quantity. And concerning the girls you mentioned, I'm not really interested in the moment in sex or marriage.

[insufferable op No.18014984]

>>18014956
Seems like good advice, anon.

[Anonymous No.18015184]

>>18014970
Many consider the KJV to be the standard for English, and it's a decent translation. It does lack some of the deuterocanonical books commonly associated with Catholic and Orthodox traditions, but often times you can find editions that include them as "Apocrypha". Alternatively, learn Koine Greek and/or Ecclesiastic Latin as you see fit and go from there.

[Anonymous No.18015199]

>>18014944
I disagree. While, as I said, reading is essential, finding a Church is also critical to growth in faith. There is a great deal to be gained through fellowship, which we are called to partake in.

[Anonymous No.18015204]

Go to mass every Sunday and holy day of obligation.
Go to confession and receive communion frequently.
Follow the precepts of the Church.
Read scripture, theology, and lives of the saints.

[Anonymous No.18015215]

>>18014944
You don't understand what a Catholic mass is. It's not a social gathering, it's the greatest prayer and act of worship available.

[Anonymous No.18015223]

>>18014914
Christianity teaches weakness and slave morality.
Pontius Pilate had the right idea.

[Anonymous No.18015228]

>>18015215
If God cares about quantity rather than quality, he's a vain desert demon and deserves no worship. True spirituality is within you to discover and develop, not in some exploitative organized gathering.

[Anonymous No.18015243]

Also op if an FSSP or ICKSP church is near you, I would go to it. This isn't even a tradcath meme, the latin mass is significantly better in all respects to the novus ordo.

[Anonymous No.18015259]

>>18015228
>If God cares about quantity rather than quality,
Except the mass is the central act of worship precisely because it has the most quality.

>True spirituality is within you to discover and develop
And the mass is the best time to do this, as the core tenants of the faith and the body and the Eucharist which Christ said for us to eat, "Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you...." are available to us at mass.

[Anonymous No.18015537]

>>18014944
Scripture makes very clear that the church is extremely important

[Anonymous No.18015551]

Theology and philosophy can be a stumbling. I often find myself trying to read more philosophy and intellectually understand God as a substitute for true faith and spiritual experience. Just be sure to read scripture and pray as a number one absolutely vital thing

[Anonymous No.18015574]

>>18014914
Go to an orthodox church
See if there are any English liturgies if you're an Anglo

[Anonymous No.18015611]

This thread is strange to me, because I just had a dream last night that I was in church and receiving the eucharist. I was dressed in a weird gown unlike anything I had ever worn before and the female priest reached out to give me the eucharist, and then threw it on the floor. It rolled under the first pew and I had to go fetch it. The congregation watched as I went after it and "dusted it off" on my gown and then ate it.

[Anonymous No.18015628]

>>18014914
1. Don't be american
2. Don't be on the internet

[Anonymous No.18015642]

>>18014914
Christianity was already a larp by the end of the XIXth century, read Léon Bloy and weep about being born in the wrong time

[Anonymous No.18015712]

>>18014914
You can’t. Christianity is itself a meme, as is monotheism. Polytheism is an option, but you would need to rebuild and reevaluate much of it

[Anonymous No.18015748]

>>18014914
read intro to christianity by Ratzinger. you can be a christian without being a christcuck crusader, live religion in your own and personal way.

[Anonymous No.18015812]

>>18014970
If you're Catholic, DRA is probably the best option

[Anonymous No.18015821]

>>18015223
>Pontius Pilate had the right idea
You haven't read the part of the Bible where Jesus gets crucified have you

[Anonymous No.18015826]

>>18014970
>I heard there are many versions of the Bible and not all include what the church considers canon.
Yes many protestant bibles leave out the 7 deuterocanonical books. Get New American Bible (NABRE) or Douay Rheims. KJV is rejected by the Catholic Church

[Anonymous No.18015835]

>>18015821
You mean the coping part?

[Anonymous No.18015836]

>>18015748
>live religion in your own and personal way.
What exactly do you mean by this. Sounds like religious indifferentism to me.

[Anonymous No.18015840]

>>18015835
I don't know about that, but you make it sound like Pilate personally decided to capture and crucify Jesus

[Anonymous No.18015853]

Go to a Protestant church if you wish to worship God. Go to a Catholic or Orthodox church if you wish to worship Satan through having your prayers diverted to allegedly Mary and other humans that died and are claimed to be saints.

[Anonymous No.18015868]

>>18015840
No, Jesus was probably too insignificant to have ever met Pontius Pilate, and the Jews were probably too busy with Passover to give a shit either. The Gospels are just four major copes for the fact that your faith healer died, nothing happened and nobody gave a shit

[Anonymous No.18015887]

>>18015853
>Go to a Protestant church if you wish to worship God.
>Go to a barn or a converted Wallmart/McDonalds to listen to mediocre rock and shove money up the butt of a televangelist

The true American experience

[Anonymous No.18015891]

>>18015853
>through having your prayers diverted to allegedly Mary and other humans that died and are claimed to be saints.
Why are you guys so against asking for intercession?

[Anonymous No.18015897]

>>18015748
>Ratzinger
Yeah listen to the man who went against the church theology by allying with atheists, jewish pederasts and faux-conservatives because neo-scholastics like Lagrange refused their political pandering.
Look up all the people Ratzinger worked with to overthrow the church, most of them aren't even allowed to act as priests anymore.

[Anonymous No.18015904]

>>18015868
Then why'd you say Pilate had the right idea lol

[Anonymous No.18015914]

>>18015868
Meanwhile in reality phariseeism reformed almost solely to seethe about christ and christians from the middle ages to the present day.

[Anonymous No.18015915]

>>18015904
I didn’t

[Anonymous No.18015923]

>>18015915
Are you not this >>18015223 guy then

[Anonymous No.18015929]

>>18015923
No

[Anonymous No.18015933]

>>18015929
Then I have no clue what we were arguing about lol

[Anonymous No.18015954]

>>18015887
>barn
Where did God choose for Jesus to be born manifest unto and among us?

[Anonymous No.18015977]

>>18015954
That would make sense if the rituals in those barns weren’t literal orgies of idiocy and grifting. Pic very related

[Anonymous No.18015979]

>>18015954
Mass can be done anywhere but if possible, the liturgical act of worship should look to give the most reverence to God. This is the fundamental difference between protestant service and catholic "service" (mass). The real presence of God is in the tabernacle.

[Anonymous No.18016018]

>>18015954
Jesus was born in a manger precisely because no one welcomed the Holy Family in the Inn. We as Christians now have that opportunity to welcome him in the inn, not the barn.

[Anonymous No.18016147]

>>18015977
>some people in some places do this so all places are this bad
Do *all* Catholic churches feature molestation?
>>18015979
>God didn't go to Moses and Jacob out in the wilderness
Jesus gathered people to preach to them on mountain sides and lake banks.
>>18016018
Pray to God directly, not "Mary" or "saints", and ask would he prefer you put all that money into fancy places to worship him, or into barns and inns to welcome people into who have no places to go? Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that the time was coming and now here that worshiping God in Spirit and Truth were what he wanted rather than all that previous concern with where is the proper physical building or place.

[Anonymous No.18016392]

>>18016147
>Jesus gathered people to preach to them on mountain sides and lake banks.
Like I said mass can be said anywhere but if possible it should give the most reverence available to God. This reverence is reflected in the Church that we worship God in. Would you welcome Jesus in a manger or would you welcome him in something nice? You have the choice. God also stresses the importance of liturgical practice in Exodus and Leviticus.

>Pray to God directly, not "Mary" or "saints",
James 5:16

>Jesus told the Samaritan woman
The passage was dealing specifically with gentiles and their salvation not liturgical practice.
"You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth"

[Anonymous No.18016448]

>>18016392
Not that guy, but frankly I'd welcome him anywhere.

[Anonymous No.18016457]

>>18016392
>if possible it should give the most reverence available to God
>God's own created Earth and Universe aren't as good as this building we made

[Anonymous No.18016470]

>>18016448
You wouldn't clean up your house before inviting Him in?

[Anonymous No.18016491]

>>18014970
Get RSV-2CE

[Anonymous No.18016498]

>>18016457
Oh come on anon. It's obvious that there are some things more respectable on this earth than others. Matter is innately good but the way we conform matter and work with it matters as well. The beauty of the church reflects the reverence that people have towards their worship just as Cain did not give up a good enough sacrifice as Able did.

[Anonymous No.18016511]

>>18015887
Can you still not deny the theory instead of the trappings?

Oh no, there are ungainly protestants, is the idea of giving oneself unto god, not unto those that are godly not have weight?

[Anonymous No.18016516]

>>18014944
holy shit... the 200 IQ christian take...

[Anonymous No.18016533]

>>18016498
Yet, what Jesus talked about keeping personal needs to a minimum and using overflow to benefit others who have less than the minimum. Anyone truly serious about "worshiping him", making him happy, doing what pleases him, that's where the focus is going to be. The fancy buildings are a waste. We have no time. At any moment like a thief in the night he could return, all the while people suffering, craving relief.

[Anonymous No.18016559]

>>18016533
Church's are usually beautiful because the congregation donates to the church itself. People are donating there money away from their self-enrichment so that their place of worship glorifies God better. I want my sacrifice to be Abel's not Cain's.

[Anonymous No.18016612]

>>18016559
The money donated to the church should go towards serving those in need, not the building beyond the bare minimum. Nothing glorifies God "better" than providing food to the hungry, clothing to the naked, love for the sad and lonely, peace to the afraid, etc.

[Anonymous No.18016655]

>>18016612
refuted by Jesus himself:
John 12:3-8
>3 Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of right spikenard, of great price, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

>4 Then one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, he that was about to betray him, said:

>5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

>6 Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein.

>7 Jesus therefore said: Let her alone, that she may keep it against the day of my burial.

>8 For the poor you have always with you; but me you have not always.

[Anonymous No.18016709]

>>18016655
And Matthew
>But when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? 9 For this ointment might have been sold for a large sum, and given to the poor.” 10 But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me. 12 In pouring this ointment on my body she has done it to prepare me for burial. 13 Truly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her.”

[Anonymous No.18016831]

>>18016655
>>18016709
>just before Jesus incarnated as a human in our direct presence was about to be crucified, sure, sacrifice a box and some oil, compared to spending hundreds of thousands and millions, collective billions, on buildings that require constant expensive upkeep

[Anonymous No.18016841]

>>18016831
It shows how we should treat Him. Jesus' real body and blood is in the Church.

[Anonymous No.18016851]

>>18014914
Show up late and leave early

[Anonymous No.18017099]

>>18016841
>It shows how we should treat Him

31 i“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, jthen he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him kwill be gathered lall the nations, and mhe will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates nthe sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then othe King will say to pthose on his right, ‘Come, you qwho are blessed by my Father, rinherit sthe kingdom tprepared for you ufrom the foundation of the world. 35 For vI was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you wgave me drink, xI was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 vI was naked and you clothed me, yI was sick and you zvisited me, aI was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And bthe King will answer them, c‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these dmy brothers,6 you did it to me.’

Imagine capitalizing "Him" while using Scripture to lawyer for spending incredible sums of money on fancy buildings while He starves, freezes, rots away lonely, afraid, abused in prisons, gets no health care, etc.

[Anonymous No.18017129]

>>18016470
Sure, but that's a false equivalence. Not having my home be a mess is very different than having my home be Buckingham Palace.

[Anonymous No.18017355]

>>18017099
You say it like the Church isn't the biggest charity organization in the planet. Shut up your pharisee mouth and praise Jesus.

[Anonymous No.18017510]

>>18017129
We should do the best we can(key word) to make the house of God beautiful. That's all I was saying. God calls us to do as Abel did, not Cain.

[Anonymous No.18017566]

>>18017099
Making God's house beautiful, which again, comes from donations, is a spiritual act just as giving to the poor is. We can do both and the Church does.

Exodus 28:2-4
>[2] And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. [3] And you shall speak to all who have ability, whom I have endowed with an able mind, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him for my priesthood. [4] These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a coat of checker work, a turban, and a girdle; they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons to serve me as priests.

Isaiah 60:5-6
>5 Then shalt thou see, and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the. strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.

>6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Madian and Epha: all they from Saba shall come, bringing gold and frankincense: and shewing forth praise to the Lord.

[Anonymous No.18017720]

>>18014924
Don't read the Bible if you are a catholic, that's what the priest is for. Just go to mass and do what the priest says, you haven't been trained to interpret the bible properly so don't read it or you'll turn into a protestant.

[Anonymous No.18017745]

>>18015215
cringe

[Anonymous No.18017746]

>>18014924
>top 99%
So only above 1% of Christians?

[Anonymous No.18017810]

>>18017355
>charity
Nice, a modern word for indulgences. I guess old habits really do die hard eh?

[Anonymous No.18017811]

>>18015897
I am pretty sure Ratzinger himself has repudiated much of the bad parts of what he did, including when he was Pope. I mean, he did issue Summorum Pontificum.

[Anonymous No.18017824]

>>18017720
We read the gospel every Sunday during mass...

>>18017745
The last supper is cringe?

[Anonymous No.18017863]

>>18017810
There is nothing wrong with indulgences and it's completely biblical. Also most prots don't understand what purgatory is anyways.

[Anonymous No.18017886]

>>18017863
>There is nothing wrong with indulgences
Oddly enough, in a Biblical context, there actually isn’t. Morally of course there is, but if your goal is obedience and a nihilistic will to power, then I guess making heaven pay to play fits pretty well

[Anonymous No.18017888]

>>18015223
Then why is Christianity thriving while Nietzche is dead?

[Anonymous No.18017902]

>>18017888
Churches emptying is ‘thriving’, according to you? Having pretty much only the dimmest of the dim left in due time is a great future to you? It’s not very hard to see which way this is going

[Anonymous No.18017928]

>>18017902
The Catholic Church alone has 1.3 billion members on all seven continents.

[Anonymous No.18017936]

>>18016392
>James 5:16
We're supposed to confess to one another and pray for one another, which doesn't sound at all like prayer to Mary or to saints or others confirmed to be in heaven. I thought that saint and Mary worship stood entirely on Tradition and didn't really need scriptural reinforcement?

[Anonymous No.18017937]

>>18017886
>Oddly enough, in a Biblical context, there actually isn’t.
Matthew 16:19. This gets into apostolic succession discussion and patristics.

[Anonymous No.18017938]

>>18017928
Rapidly aging ones, in a church that I’m sure many of you tradtards think is ‘degenerate’ now

[Anonymous No.18017956]

>>18017936
If you read further it says, "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."
We ask for their prayers (intercession). There are also numerous examples of intercession in the old testament, pic related. Oh and angels as intercessors was in that one book you threw out.

> I thought that saint and Mary worship stood entirely on Tradition and didn't really need scriptural reinforcement?
Nice strawman, it's veneration not worship. And the veneration of Mary is biblical. (Luke 1:28-30) (Luke 1:40-42)

[Anonymous No.18017957]

>>18017355
That's not very charitable.

[Anonymous No.18017959]

Why are you guys even arguing? The whole thread is sophistry and one bad faith argument after another. You all have more important things to do anons I am sure of it.

[Anonymous No.18017967]

>>18017746
Please be patient I have autism

[Anonymous No.18017986]

>>18017959
I am actually quite serious about my Catholic faith, and as such, I like to try and share it, as well as steer interested Anons in the right direction. So that's why I, at least, am here.

Also, OP, if you want a really good, not-cringe thing to read about Catholicism, look up the "Jesus of Nazareth" book series. We've talked about Ratzinger a bit in this thread. He wrote these books, and they're really excellent. They are a Catholic guide to the Gospels, a look at what the Church thinks about Jesus Himself relative to the Gospels that tell His story. I found them remarkable to read. It's kind of like reading the Church Fathers, because it's prayer, Scriptural examination, and theology all mingled together in a very readable way.

[Anonymous No.18018284]

>>18014914
>rekindle his relationship with the church
Don't look to the past. Instead, stand up to the trials of your time and build something new.

[Anonymous No.18018295]

[Anonymous No.18018306]

>>18015228
>he's a vain desert demon and deserves no worship.
henlo :DDD

[Anonymous No.18018361]

>>18014914
Find a good, orthodox priest and have a chat? Go to confession if you haven’t been in a while? Maybe take up the rosary?

[Anonymous No.18018396]

>>18014914
>By their fruits you will know them
Just find a church where the people are not cringe larpers. Then you won't become a cringe larper.

[Anonymous No.18018831]

>>18014914
Drop any desire to rejoin the Church because you see it as some sort of quasi desire to join something you feel is aligned with your political beliefs. Putting the institution of the Church before your relationship with Christ is putting the horse before the carriage.

>>18014941
Recommending the Summa to a guy who's just getting back into Catholicism is like recommending a guy who wants to go hiking to climb Mt Everest. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable and even I would probably be filtered by the Summa without being completely handheld through it.

The most intense thing I would recommend to someone like OP would be the Confessions; anything beyond that is probably more dense than that it's worth.

[Anonymous No.18018943]

>>18014914
>Read scripture and theology
>Become a member of your community irl
>Don't discuss it on the internet

That's it

[Anonymous No.18019070]

>>18014914
Obligatory "talk to clergy of your chosen denomination"
Regardless of denomination, go to church regularly. This means every Sunday at the least (unless you're Eastern Orthodox and it'd be an hour-long drive each way and you can't afford that every Sunday due to gas prices or some shit), and then consider going to church during the week as well; that could be Baptists and their Wednesday night services, this could be the Orthodox and any of the Office being celebrated regularly, or the Catholics with daily Mass.
You also want to pray daily. Make it something short; if you're just starting out, five minutes or so is fine. Five in the morning and five at night would be better, but if you can't do that yet, just five at either one works, or during the middle of the day, dependent upon your schedule. You need to start small to make it a habit and work your way up as well. Short spontaneous prayers during the day is good too.
You can also read theologians, especially those relevant to your interests, but being a good Christian isn't about being smarter than the person next to you.
To avoid becoming a meme LARPer, there's a few simple tricks:
>don't shitpost about it online
>please don't talk about Christianity in one breath and then in the next call someone a nigger (or any other strong insult, frankly)
>avoid trying to start fights online, this one is especially true because I've found many people online go out of their way to hunt down people they disagree with and fight online, especially to just call people fags or ask if they're in a state of sin
That should be a decent start, because then you'll have substance (by regularly attending church and praying often) and you won't be ruining the appearance of Christianity or be using it as a political/argumentative weapon.

And just a heads up, this means that much of 4chan's religious discussions are to be avoided.
>>18018943
Fugg I was beaten to the punch, but I already wrote this

[Anonymous No.18020159]

>>18015853
Go to a protestant church if you want to contribute to the thricefold heretical legacy that ruined the west
Go to a Catholic church if you want to contribute to the initial grand heresy that started it all
Go to an Orthodox church if you wish to have a healthy community with a strong intellectual and mystical foundation
It's also the only Christian denomination to ever reassert itself as a majority after getting suppressed

[Anonymous No.18020191]

>>18020159
>strong intellectual and mystical foundation
>mental conceptualization masturbations
Weird how of the many times I've seen churches out actually feeding the hungry and that kind of thing, it's always been Protestants. The local food banks and clothing banks, all Protestant. But hey, there the Orthodox are, sitting around thinking and imagining the "right things"!

[Anonymous No.18020198]

>>18020159
>heresy
>Catholicism
oh no no ortholarper reporting in...

[Anonymous No.18020222]

>>18020191
The Orthodox are a tiny minority. They do charity, you don't see it.
Imagine making such a flawed argument right after criticizing someone else's intellectual chops

[Anonymous No.18020226]

>>18020198
> unironic oh no no no poster

[Anonymous No.18020254]

>>18020226
oh no no using protestant bullshit to deny something that all orthodogs accepted before becoming orthodogs...

[Anonymous No.18020338]

>>18020222
I personally know quite a many Orthodox, married into them. Where the rubber meets the road, feeding poor hungry, they are certainly not doing here in either open or secret. When there is a food giveaway in a parking lot, it's Protestant. When there is a food bank in an actual building, it's Protestant. When there is a clothing drop off and give away place, it's Protestant. If they are feeding people in secret here, then they are keeping it secret from the people they are feeding as well, so I'm not sure how that is supposed to work.

[Anonymous No.18020362]

>>18020338
I personally know quite a many Orthodox seeing as I live in a place with a relatively high population of them. They do all of this as well.

[Anonymous No.18020399]

>>18020362
So what, Protestantism is still better and Orthodox are not as good, they don't even read Revelation in church

[Anonymous No.18020421]

To protestants: where was Christianity for 1500 or however many years after Christ? Also where was it directly after Christ (isn't the Catholic and Orthodox Church apostolic???)?

[Anonymous No.18020532]

>>18020421
>Also where was it directly after Christ
Yes, there's your best question, do the Catholic or Orthodox churches resemble the church of the Book of Acts? Nope. Does the Book of Acts deify Mary? Nope. In the Book of Acts did they pray to anyone but God? Nope. In the Book of Acts was there any sort of "Divine Liturgy"? Nope. In Paul's letters, was there some trouble with people going in and eating more than their share of the Lord's Supper and getting drunk from the wine? Yes, which would be impossible with tiny wafers or broken off bread bits, or single cups with shared little sips. Face it, all of the Catholic and Orthodox ways are just made up stuff that they merely *claim* to be handed directly from Jesus and the Apostles.

[Anonymous No.18020568]

>>18020532
That's pretty unconvincing. Where did the bible include sola scriptura or the validity of any and all (like yours, for example) private interpretation?

[Anonymous No.18020596]

>>18020568
>Acts actually describes many aspects of the earliest church with the actual Apostles, none of which resembles Catholicism or Orthodoxy
>unconvincing

[Anonymous No.18020609]

>>18014914
Too late you have to ask

[Anonymous No.18020612]

I have a copy of The Scriptures, a Septuagint, and NT coming

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18020620]

>>18014914
>How can I turn into a pathetic walking meme without turning into a pathetic walking meme.

By never posting here again. Get your off topic bs out of here

[Anonymous No.18020624]

>>18020612
>Septuagint
That's something I would like to get ahold of. I have considered just going ahead on an Orthodox Study Bible.

[Anonymous No.18020648]

>>18020620
Yikes

[Anonymous No.18020650]

Why do anons who claim to be religious get so mad when other people claim to be religious? Jealousy?

[Anonymous No.18020654]

>>18020596
Don't feel like getting into a pointless back and forth. You ignored too many of my questions and the one you did address was not done so in a remotely complete or even genuine manner. I can already pick two holes in it. Then instead of answering my follow up questions you just greentexted me. So there it is, I can't have a productive discussion with you.

[Anonymous No.18020677]

>>18020620
>calls other pathetic walking meme
>is a "famous" tripfag
Please, take your own advice.

[Anonymous No.18021052]

>>18020159
>the only Christian denomination to ever reassert itself as a majority after getting suppressed
>what is post-Revolutionary France
>what is post-Communist Poland

[Anonymous No.18021115]

>>18020254
> out of context citations, with fake context added via uppercase to fit agenda
Always a classic when dealing with Latins.
I remember this thread. The OP posted this garbled mess then launched ad hominems and refused to consider any counterexamples even from the cited Fathers themselves. Such a person is not to be taken as an authority by any standard. Also a sad reactionary response from a sect which is a shell of its former self, through its own lazy apologia and secularizing pragmatic approach.
Before continuing, I should point out that the Orthodox tradition holds that Rome was given primacy, but not supremacy, nor pragmatic jurisdictional authority, nor infallibility. This tradition neatly explains the reality of the first-millenium Church and relations between Rome and the other churches, which are on a far more even footing than Papist revisionists would suggest.

>Irenaeus
Irenaeus' main opponents were Gnostics. Against them, he argued that the apostolic tradition was maintained in all the successor churches, which clearly runs counter to supremacist interpretations. Refer to Against Heresies, Book Four, Chapter 33:8
More obviously, Irenaeus refuted Pope Victor when he attempted to exert authority over the other bishops over a liturgical matter:
>Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops. And they besought him to consider the things of peace, and of neighborly unity and love. Words of theirs are extant, sharply rebuking Victor. Among them was Irenæus, who, sending letters in the name of the brethren in Gaul over whom he presided, maintained that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be observed only on the Lord's day. He fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom.
>- Eusebius, The History of the Church – Book V, xxiv
Lastly, Irenaeus is simply wrong when he states that Rome was the greatest and most ancient church, as we know that other churches preceded Rome and were more numerous and influential in the Christian communion at this time, such as Antioch. And Antioch again offers an example of a see established by Peter after he had been given primacy... the history is simply mistaken here.

[Anonymous No.18021120]

>>18021115
>citing Cyprian's condemnation of Novatianism, i.e. the schism of laity and lay clergy from the legitimate Church, in the case of different Patriarchs i.e. archbishops i.e. equals excommunicating each other
Compare to Cyprian, referring to Pope Stephen when this bishop first began to exalt his position as a seat of authority over others:
>“but this these men are now doing who divide the church, and, as rebels against the peace and unity of Christ, attempt to establish a throne for themselves, and to assume the primacy … How can they complete what they do, or obtain anything by lawless endeavours from God … And, moreover, that it may be better understood what is the divine judgment against audacity of the like kind, we find that in such wickedness, not only the leaders and originators, but also the partakers, are destined to punishment , unless they have separated themselves from the communion of the wicked … That is to be wondered at, yea, rather to be indignant and aggrieved at, that Christians should support antichrists; and that prevaricators of the faith, and betrayers of the church, should stand within the church itself.”
>-The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle LXXV
And another one:
"For neither did Peter, whom first the Lord chose, when Paul disputed with him afterwards about the circumcision, claim anything to himself insolently, nor arrogantly assume anything, so as to say that he held primacy, and that he ought to be obeyed to novices and those lately come." Epistle LXX concerning the baptism of Heretics
And moreover, what happens when the Pope deserts the Chair of Peter?

>Optatus
Sure, Optatus was strongly pro-Roman, but it should be noted that Optatus is also not exactly aware of Rome's history considering his book's succession of Bishops of Rome is blatantly incorrect.
And furthermore Theodoret who was active in the East and involved in more theological controversies than Optatis, referred to other sees as the Chairs of Peter equally to Rome. Again, there is Antioch.

>Dionysus
Refer to primacy vs supremacy arguments.
It is also plain that charges against a bishop must logically be leveled to other bishops. The ultimate form of this is an ecumenical council, and each of the first five councils were either called to confirm a papal opinion, against Rome's wishes, or even with presiding bishops who were outright not in communion with Rome. They were not called by the Pope either, the secular and religious authorities in Constantinople were responsible. In all cases the need for councils would not be present if Rome was an institutional authority, no?

[Anonymous No.18021126]

>>18021120
>Second Ecumenical Council
Antioch presiding, then not in communion with Rome. Pretty obvious.

>Siricius
>Boniface I
Literally popes, and not especially good ones either, disregarded.

>Ambrose
This quote speaks to the creed held by the Roman church. It does not give the Roman church the authority to bring common decisions, again, the actual historical form of the Councils contradicts it plainly.

>Jerome
Jerome was the best of the pro-Latin fathers, and I will concede that. Regardless the role of consensus still applies.

>Augustine
Augustine nicely refutes hardline reading of his work in another epistle of his:
>"Well, let us suppose that those bishops who decided the case at Rome were not good judges; there still remained a plenary Council of the universal Church, in which these judges themselves might be put on their defence; so that, if they were convicted of mistake, their decisions might be reversed." Augustine Letter 43
>- To Glorius, Eleusius, the Two Felixes, Grammaticus, and All Others to Whom This May Be Acceptable, My Lords Most Beloved and Worthy of Praise, Augustine Sends Greeting. Chapter. VII.19
So clearly the bishops at Rome can be bad judges? Doesn't this undermine the supremacist view?

>Tertullian
Tertullian was indeed strongly pro-Roman. He also literally fell into heresy and quoting him is like quoting Origen. The difference, to a Catholic, would be that Jerome himself greatly respected Origen and translated many of his works despite disagreeing with a subset of his doctrines, and said he possessed "immortal genius", while he considered Tertullian an envious man. Refer to Jerome, "On Famous Men".
Jerome also notes that Cyprian was Tertullian's foremost disciple, and Cyprian clearly had a nuanced view of the Papacy as we see above.

[Anonymous No.18021137]

>>18021126
In conclusion, here was a custom for Rome to act as a mediator, but this does not prove supremacy, nor infallibility, nor does it mean Rome cannot fall into heresy. The patristic sources indicate great respect for Rome, nevertheless, the strongest pro-Roman voices come from popes, from future heresiarchs, and from those like Jerome and Augustine whose doctrines would later lead to heresy and harm the Church. Meanwhile the circumstances and protocols of the Councils, the greatest authorities for doctrine even in Roman Catholicism, make it clear that the early church did not bow to the Bishop of Rome.
These supremacist delusions are probably why the Papacy feels justified in doing whatever it pleases. Maybe that's why you lost the West, and not through conquest or anything of the sort, but falling apart from within.

I will not be replying further, pseuds have wasted enough of my time. Enjoy your creeping heresy loser, but at least you have """"unity""""

[Anonymous No.18021150]

>>18021052
>what is post-Revolutionary France
a poor cope seeing as the Church in France would only keep declining after this fact
>what is post-Communist Poland
Got me there, but the Church never lost popularity in Poland and they had all the resources of the larger Church to persist. But even they are declining right now, though slowest of all first-world Catholic churches.
Meanwhile Russia nominally went from 20% to 80% and their attendance keeps rising.

[Anonymous No.18021155]

>>18017811
>Yes, I do trust a man who looks to be the physical embodiment of the weight of sin to be my spiritual leader

[Anonymous No.18021164]

>>18017824
There's a difference between parroting structure and actually trying to read and understand the Bible yourself.

[Anonymous No.18021262]

>>18017986
>I am actually quite serious about my Catholic faith
You’re posting here, so clearly you’re not

[Anonymous No.18021363]

>>18021150
>a poor cope seeing as the Church in France would only keep declining after this fact
The 19th century saw Therese Lisieiux, Catherine Laboure, and the Lourdes apparitions and miracles amongst others. And that's only in terms of religiosity, in more practical matters it had both the Bourbon Restoration as well as Napoleon.

The 1800s was actually something of a rebirth of French Catholicism and it wasn't until around the end of the century when the more secular factions of the Third Republic started imposing ">muh laicite" as some arbitrary standard of French culture.

[Anonymous No.18021380]

>>18016533
Jesus also refused to condemn the anointing of his feet with valuable oil, and God commanded the temple be built. The act of reverence in providing a place to house Him is not wasted.
>>18014914
Pray as much as you read the theology or apologetical works- both with the Church community and on your own. Don't let it be the memed tradcath intellectual thing, but love. The apologetics is good, but many- myself included- find that autistic doctrinal knoedge easier than holiness.