/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17887095]

What are the pros and cons of secularism, I feel like most bodies of work support it and I haven't seen much work or books talking about it's negatives. Kinda convinced it's the way to go now.

[Anonymous No.17887137]

I can’t think of one, Abrahamists are just pissed at it because it doesn’t allow them to take over whole societies and impose their retarded ideas onto them.

It’s despised for the same reason as freedom of speech is, by the same people: petty control freaks who aim the rage of their failed lives outwards, to some Other they don’t happen to like

[Anonymous No.17887249]

>>17887137
Is there any actual philosophical arguments against it honestly? secularism also doesn't seem to be pro or anti authoritarian

[Anonymous No.17887269]

>>17887137
>I can’t think of one, Abrahamists are just pissed at it because it doesn’t allow them to take over whole societies and impose their retarded ideas onto them.
You're still getting retarded ideas imposed on you it's just coming from a different group. Big win for you there.

[Anonymous No.17887280]

>>17887269
Most of those immigrants are another group of Abrahamists, and freedom of speech is not exactly in favor of retarded leftists, so what’s your point?

[Anonymous No.17887281]

>>17887249
It privileges certain ideological views above others. Under secularism you can't teach that God exists in public schools but you can teach that a man snipping his dick off makes him a woman. Obviously there is a certain group who very much likes this idea of being able to restrict cultural mores from being taught in schools because they're religious in nature while at the same time pushing certain progressive ideas in the same school system.

[Anonymous No.17887290]

>>17887280
>and freedom of speech is not exactly in favor of retarded leftists
That's pretty much why you don't actually have free speech in any western country though. Even in America they've found a work around by placing discussion on private platforms then simply banning people for wrongthink. What you have a problem with that, free speech cuck? Private property, go suck eggs. Libertarian retard.

[Anonymous No.17887307]

>>17887290
Gee it’s almost like companies only being beholden to their shareholders was a bad idea or something.

Yet righttards like you keep insisting on muh capitalism. Way to dig your own grave

[Anonymous No.17887316]

religion helps keep people functioning properly, and helps keep a population united
see: the absolute state of clown world

[Anonymous No.17887328]

>>17887316
Religion is the very thing that led to clown world in the first place. If you have extreme insistence on sexual purity, the response to that will be the very opposite. It apparently never occurred to anyone that neither of these are preferable

[Anonymous No.17887339]

>>17887281
hmm so you would argue the secularism is kinda not consistent? For example it may separate the state from religious beliefs but the state can still be influenced by other forms of beliefs for example how state, companies and schools push a progressive belief.

Are progressives beliefs the natural symptom of secularism or is it artificially pushed?

[Anonymous No.17887348]

>>17887339
Modern progressivism is basically religious belief that attempts to immanetize the eschaton through science. It gets a free reign to propagate itself through public channels while religion, the traditional worldview of the western nations is restricted. And people wonder why the west lost its cultural identity

[Anonymous No.17887349]

>>17887281
>It privileges certain ideological views above others.
Which religion did in the centuries before.
I guess it’s not oppression when you do it

[Anonymous No.17887358]

>>17887328
>If you have extreme insistence on sexual purity, the response to that will be the very opposite
Freud was a hack and his sexual repression theory has been thoroughly debunked. People giving in to their worst impulses has not made them mentally healthier at all.

[Anonymous No.17887365]

>>17887349
Secularism does so under the pretense that it's "neutral" however and gives a space for all. It's the favorite motte and bailey of secularists to pretend that you're free to have any religious belief...as long as it's fundamentally private and doesn't conflict with progressive dogma.

[Anonymous No.17887373]

>>17887328
It depends on the religion idk about Christianity, but most religion say sex is good as long as you're married. Sex economy is real and an open market sex would just lead to less sex overall, in ancient Egypt 17 women : 1 men. That's crazy

[Anonymous No.17887378]

>>17887348
Holy fuck, do you even read your post after you’ve typed it down? Everything in this post is a fucking mess dude
>leftism is a religion guys
>also, religion is actually good and the lack of religion is the reason why we’re losing the western cultural identity
>also, the western cultural identity just so happens to be the religion I subscribe to, which is the traditional point of view and can therefore never be changed
>even though the religion I’m referring to is Christianity, which at some point in western history did the very things the left is doing right now

Right wing philosophy is such a fucking mess, and probably correlated with schizophrenia

[Anonymous No.17887385]

>>17887358
>People giving in to their worst impulses has not made them mentally healthier at all.
Which wasn’t even my point to begin with. Can you even read?

[Anonymous No.17887396]

>>17887378
leftism isn't a religion, progressivism definitely is. leftism can act like it but it's obvious that progressivism and wokism is one of the most dominant beliefs atm.

[Anonymous No.17887403]

>>17887378
>leftism is a religion guys
Yes

>also, religion is actually good and the lack of religion is the reason why we’re losing the western cultural identity
Christianity specifically. You've created a strawman by trying to argue that I believe all religions are equivalent, which is retarded. Of course I don't believe that society would be better off if everyone was a scientologist. Leftism as a religion is even less connected with actual reality than scientology, which is what makes it destructive and subversive. The fact that it CLAIMS not to be a religion is what allows it to propagate itself so effectively while traditional Christianity cannot counter its claims within the public sphere.

>also, the western cultural identity just so happens to be the religion I subscribe to
The fuck is this supposed to mean? There's no "just so happens" about it. Christianity IS the cultural identity of the west. This is objective historical fact.

>which at some point in western history did the very things the left is doing right now
Truth is not relative. Christianity is truth therefore it gets rights that falsehood (leftism) does not. Sorry if that makes you upset.

[Anonymous No.17887411]

>>17887365
>Secularism does so under the pretense that it's "neutral" however and gives a space for all.
And Christianity exercises its power under the pretense that Jesus came to save everyone, so what’s your point? Christianity has the same slimyness you project onto secularism, namely that you can have free will, just that God or his representatives will punish you the moment you use it. Neither the left nor the right wants freedom, both sides just want to impose their ideals onto others by force, because their ideas suck and have failed completely to attract anyone in this day and age, so that leaves just force as the tool of making people accept these ideas. You’re just angry at your similarities with the left, not your differences

[Anonymous No.17887415]

>>17887411
Man libertarians are fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.17887418]

>>17887403
>You've created a strawman by trying to argue that I believe all religions are equivalent, which is retarded.
You’re right, buddhism never approves of slavery and genocide as far as I can tell, so it’s definitely less retarded than Christianity

[Anonymous No.17887422]

>>17887418
Epic post my fellow fedora tipper

[Anonymous No.17887428]

>>17887328
>repression theory

[Anonymous No.17887430]

>>17887418
>Christianity approved of slavery and genocide
Based. Should I become Christian?

[Anonymous No.17887438]

>>17887403
>Christianity IS the cultural identity of the west. This is objective historical fact.
>who were Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, what was the Roman empire and virtually every kingdom before Christianity and what religion did they subscribe to

>Christianity is truth therefore it gets rights that falsehood (leftism) does not.
>claims an apocalypse will arrive in the time of the apostles, despite that every single one of them died before anything happened

Historically and intellectually illiterate, but that is to be expected from a Christian

[Anonymous No.17887442]

>>17887430
If you want to be mentally enslaved by a rich fat priest who sees you as his walking wallet, sure

[Anonymous No.17887446]

>>17887328
>degeneracy increases precisely as religion loses influence
>this is the fault of having religion!
>why yes i believe that steering people to have sex after marriage directly leads to men dressing up as women and shoving massive objects in their anuses

[Anonymous No.17887461]

>>17887438
>Historically and intellectually illiterate
Isn't that you considering that you think "The West" can be applied before the actual split of the Roman Empire into the western Latin church and the Eastern Greek church? There was no "west" before Christianity because "The West" only exists in contradistinction to "The East" which is the Byzantines you drooling retard.

[Anonymous No.17887464]

>>17887446
>>why yes i believe that steering people to have sex after marriage directly leads to men dressing up as women and shoving massive objects in their anuses
It kind of does, because that’s completely unrealistic, and considering the Christian divorce rate, not really effective.

Then again, you probably think that abstinence only helps against teen pregnancy, which it demonstrably doesn’t. And these are the utter failures of Christianity that stuff like SJWism is born out of. People get something imposed onto them, they find out that it’s completely retarded and then they do the very opposite

[Anonymous No.17887469]

The problem i think is that the western world has a sort of strong hand on the culture. If people split and formed their own states in the western world, which states would be the most successful?

Would a state of only woke people be able to preform better than a state of Christian or Islamic theology? I always wonder this.

[Anonymous No.17887470]

>>17887438
This guy is 100% a Protestant kid who got upset Mommy dragged him to Church. Probably never a read a single page of Augustine or Maximos the Confessor in his life. Sad!

[Anonymous No.17887479]

>>17887418
The world has too many people right now. If Christians go genocidal then I will absolutely support them

[Anonymous No.17887482]

>>17887461
No because much of what’s known as ‘the West’ today is based on its cultural heritage, which includes freedom of speech, democracy and secularism, values that stem from non-Christian sources and are directly opposed to it, and I’m afraid that you trying to turn this into a game of etymology makes you the drooling retard

[Anonymous No.17887485]

>>17887464
Yes there was a lot of SJWism going on in the 16th Century wasn't there. Hm, hold on there seems to be a hole in your theory that restrictive Christian morals make people go have gay tranny sex.

[Anonymous No.17887489]

>>17887470
I never have, and I never will be. You on the other hand sound like a stereotypical tradcath larper

[Anonymous No.17887492]

>>17887482

are those things kinda based off Christian values except with all the restrictions on fun stuff?

[Anonymous No.17887494]

>>17887479
Okay, but then don’t cry persecution when they genocide you back. That excuse won’t fly anymore

[Anonymous No.17887497]

>>17887482
>He believes the enlightenment propaganda
lmao. Those fedora tippers literally destroyed the greatest civilization on the planet because of their dumb grudge against the church. The rotten fruit of those retards has poisoned the west to the point it cannot be saved.

[Anonymous No.17887502]

>Yet another politics thread on /lit/ where everyone's conception of the world is centered entirely on sex

[Anonymous No.17887504]

>>17887464
I'm from India and grew up in a really conservative Hindu town. By your logic that place would have the greatest amount of ass-eating, heroin injecting, tranny swingers in the world

[Anonymous No.17887505]

>>17887485
The 16th century didn’t have much of the technological advances so that everyone on the planet can see just how retarded fundamentalists are. I guess that’s progress

[Anonymous No.17887506]

>>17887464
what an overall embarassing post
>considering the Christian divorce rate, not really effective.
modern divorce rates are directly related to secularism leading to relaxing laws around divorce and a decline in cultural values that emphasis the sanctity of marriage. the divorce rates are up everywhere
>Then again, you probably think
wow an epic strawman incoming, why would i even read past this point?

[Anonymous No.17887508]

>>17887502
we threw off the chains of repressive christian morality for the right to put our dicks in another mans ass and things have never been better

[Anonymous No.17887510]

>>17887504
You just have a gang-rape problem instead

[Anonymous No.17887511]

>>17887378
You'll never get out of religion, schniff, you just need a good one. Mammonism surely isn't the solution.

[Anonymous No.17887512]

>>17887505
So...technology makes people have gay tranny sex now?

[Anonymous No.17887515]

>>17887095
Secularism makes society way too malleable to everything. It's basically the equivalent of pulling your pants down and waiting to be raped by whatever attacker happens to be there. It's metaphysical suicide.

[Anonymous No.17887517]

>>17887464
>It kind of does, because that’s completely unrealistic, and considering the Christian divorce rate, not really effective.
That’s what a good portion of the population did before birth control. Trying to be “moderate” about sex doesn’t work either, the more sexual partners someone has, especially women, the more their ability to pairbond is inhibited

[Anonymous No.17887520]

>>17887510
Nope, we have a relatively low rape rate (this is in the South)

[Anonymous No.17887521]

>>17887492
No, they directly contradict it. Freedom of speech directly contradicts the First Commandment, and democracy and secularism are directly contradicted by God’s dominion over everyone. Christians can go ‘Render unto Caesar’ all they want, but that doesn’t change that God insists throughout the whole Bible on absolute rule over everyone, and being allowed to vote, speak and live your life in the way you see fit directly contradicts this, despite that those three are absolute hallmarks of the western cultural identity

[Anonymous No.17887525]

>>17887520
uh huh

[Anonymous No.17887529]

>>17887497
Yes, their dumb grudge caused by a corrupt fucktarded theocracy accountable to no one, which can chose over life and death without anyone being able to challenge its power. What a benevolent thing to opposed, and what a strange occurrence that it was successful

[Anonymous No.17887540]

>>17887506
>modern divorce rates are directly related to secularism leading to relaxing laws around divorce and a decline in cultural values that emphasis the sanctity of marriage.
You’d think that your perfect doctrine would be able to deal with that. Then again, this transfer of blame onto everything but your own incredibly flawed ideas is probably a much better candidate why your religion declined. You just can’t accept the idea that it’s ever wrong on anything, and thus it must wither away

[Anonymous No.17887548]

>>17887512
No, your exaggerated strawmen of modern life gives you the impression it does. Probably because you never leave your house

[Anonymous No.17887552]

>>17887494
>don't cry persecution
I don't give a shit. If there's a genocide it will make me the happiest man in the world, even if I'm taken out

[Anonymous No.17887553]

>>17887316
Wholesome comic

[Anonymous No.17887554]

>>17887506
The trad argumentative strategy
>Say that we should just ban thing I don't like
>Claim fiat
>????
>profit

[Anonymous No.17887555]

If secularism is so good why do redditors love it so much?

[Anonymous No.17887557]

>>17887529
>what a strange occurrence that it was successful
French Revolution led to some of the worst bloodshed in the history of the country and thousands of innocents being executed. That's not really "successful" by any measure.

[Anonymous No.17887560]

>>17887517
>That’s what a good portion of the population did before birth control.
Well, the upper classes, who could afford it, although many of them had affairs. In fact, the Anglican church was born out of exactly this, almost as if the past wasn’t the utopian paradise you think it is

[Anonymous No.17887567]

>>17887552
You sound like the most naive and sheltered person ever, and all of this just makes you look like someone with absolutely no life experience. I can guarantee that when the shit really hits the fan, types like you are the first ones who start to cry and piss themselves

[Anonymous No.17887569]

>Late modern society is principally concerned with purchasing things, in ever greater abundance and variety, and so has to strive to fabricate an ever greater number of desires to gratify, and to abolish as many limits and prohibitions upon desire as it can. Such a society is already implicitly atheist and so must slowly but relentlessly apply itself to the dissolution of transcendent values. It cannot allow ultimate goods to distract us for proximate goods. Our sacred writ is advertising, our piety is shopping, our highest devotion is private choice. God and the soul too often hinder the purely acquisitive longings upon which the market depends, and confront us with values that stand in stark rivalry to the one truly substantial value at the center of our social universe: the price tag. So it really was only a matter of time before atheism slipped out of the enclosed gardens of academe and down from the vertiginous eyries of high cosmopolitan fashion and began expressing itself in crassly vulgar form. It was equally inevitable that, rather than boldly challenging the orthodoxies of its age, it would prove to be just one more anodyne item on sale in the shops, and would be enthusiastically feted by a vapid media culture not especially averse to the idea that there are no ultimate values, but only final prices. In a sense, the triviality of the movement is its chief virtue. It is a diverting alternative to thinking deeply. It is a narcotic. In our time, to strike a lapidary phrase, irreligion is the opiate of the bourgeoisie, the sigh of the oppressed ego, the heart of a world filled with tentalizing toys.

[Anonymous No.17887570]

>>17887555
Because it gives them free licence to CONSOOOM

[Anonymous No.17887575]

>>17887557
Then why did France never return to its divinely approved absolute monarchy? Are you aware that France is a secular republic nowadays?

[Anonymous No.17887579]

>>17887316
Not seeing a problem here. Why do you care if someone wears a flacid cock strap on?

[Anonymous No.17887583]

>>17887569
David Bentley Hart is a literal socialist.

[Anonymous No.17887585]

Could secularism function without capitalism?

[Anonymous No.17887588]

>>17887569
Based DBH

[Anonymous No.17887591]

>>17887328
Serious question why would an atheist be anti-lgbt? I see some anti-lgbt people atheists on /pol/ and it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Anonymous No.17887604]

>>17887569
Don't write like this

[Anonymous No.17887605]

>>17887575
>Are you aware that France is a secular republic nowadays?
Yeah, I'm also aware it's a total shithole. This supposed to be a W for you big guy? Your secular republic is turning into little Mozambique, filled with niggers and Muslims. Is this good? The triumph of secularism?

[Anonymous No.17887606]

>>17887567
On the contrary, I've had a pretty full life. In my teens I became homeless on two occasions and tramped my way across several countries. If I sound blackpilled it's because the only thing I love is nature, I work in forestry and it makes me sick how humans have shat on the natural world

[Anonymous No.17887609]

>>17887540
>You’d think that your perfect doctrine would be able to deal with that.
what exactly do you expect it to do in a secular society exactly? the christian doctrine literally does have ways of dealing with it, but we live in a secular society so the christian doctrine is not being used to decide laws... good lord your head is so far up your own ass its amazing you can breathe

I love how youre the one getting butthurt because you believe that the principle of faithful relationships leading to trannies and such is something so obvious people are crazy because they "just cant accept it", all while you outright refuse to even consider the possibility that cultural norms might effect peoples behavior, and the removal of those cultural norms might have the opposite effect as their establishment, which makes infinitely more sense than your retarded crackpot theory.

[Anonymous No.17887615]

>>17887605
Muslims aren't secular you retard. ISIS is unironically closer to you religiously and politically.

[Anonymous No.17887617]

>>17887560
>almost as if the past wasn’t the utopian paradise you think it is
I didn’t say it was, but it wasn’t the absolute shitshow it is now

[Anonymous No.17887620]

>>17887615
>Muslims aren't secular you retard
No shit, hence why're outbreeding and replacing the pathetic atheist population practically begging to be replaced.

Again is this supposed to be a W for you? You're arguing FOR secularism aren't you? Why are you making it look so fucking bad if you think it's a good thing?

[Anonymous No.17887626]

>>17887428
Why is she so great bros?

[Anonymous No.17887649]

>>17887620
Muslims > Christians. At least Muhammed was a based pedo imperialist slave owner. Jesus was just some hippie socialist faggot who died on a cross.

[Anonymous No.17887660]

>>17887095
>What are the pros and cons of secularism
Let's see, aside from people not being burned at the stake for being heretics, and Secularism ending a couple of Centuries of chaos and bloodshed, there couldn't possibly be any positives, could there?
Just kidding. We tolerate all you religious scumbags instead of putting you into re-education camps like the Commies, and you would still rather live in the Dark Ages.

[Anonymous No.17887687]

>>17887269
Based Eritreans making racists seethe

[Anonymous No.17887701]

>>17887660
>Secularism ending a couple of Centuries of chaos and bloodshed
The bloodiest period of time was the 20st century, and it was secular governments shedding the blood IIRC.

[Anonymous No.17887780]

Holy shit the people in the replies are so delusional. Imagine only believing in Christianity because you want to be racist lmao. We are never going to go back to the religious society. Secularism is the future whether it's good or bad is debatable but don't pretend that your larpy Catholic/Orthodox Christendom is going to catch on.

A secular society isn't a society that simply rejects the bible. A secular society would be one where religious artifacts no longer "belong" to their respective religious groups. There are pagans who read Homer for religious reasons but no one thinks that Pagans have an "ownership" of the works of Homer that is unique to them because we are a post-pagan society and we can't go back to paganism either. Individuals can embrace paganism but society can't. This is what will happen to the Bible. It's pointless to argue whether secularism is good or bad when it's an unstoppable force of nature. Every other belief about secularism is a cope. The new trinity is Capitalism (the father), Secularism (the son) and Sodomy (the holy spirit). Get fucked larpers

[Anonymous No.17887786]

>>17887780
>Secularism is the future
Europe is going to be Muslim by 2050. As the other guy pointed out, Muslims are not secularists.

[Anonymous No.17887797]

Secularism doesn't exist and is just a manifestation of a contingent political principle which is abandoned at convenience.

[Anonymous No.17887799]

Secular society doesn't have the vitality to keep itself alive for extended periods. Every secular country we've seen in an advanced stage seeks to import a replacement population because they've gotten tired of existing. It seems strange to say that secularism is an "unstoppable force of nature" while secular nations commit mass cultural suicide and leave their legacies in the hands of imported religious cultures.

[Anonymous No.17887825]

>>17887780
>It's pointless to argue whether secularism is good or bad when it's an unstoppable force of nature.
holy brainlet, even if you are correct, its not "pointless"

[Anonymous No.17887838]

>>17887780
lol, secular societies are going to wither and die and be replaced by outside religious people who will reform society in their image. are you living under a rock or something?

[Anonymous No.17887852]

>>17887838
Imagine looking at modern day Sweden or Germany and thinking "Yeah that's a society that will last another 100 years" lmao

[Anonymous No.17888950]

>>17887852
......yes? Those aren’t unstable societies anon. Of course they are going to last 100 years and not only that but they will last at least 10,000 more years. Your far right millenarian psuedo-scientific bullshit is false.

[Anonymous No.17888956]

>>17887838
>your brain on /pol/