/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17863560]

>be famous priest in the 1600s, a celebrity in Rome
>write extremely popular book on interior prayer that kicked off the quietist movement, which could have lead to the Church developing in a more mystical direction
>jesuits get rustled because it makes their teachings look shit
>normies begin to misinterpret his ideas and do dumb shit like refusing to say prayers or confess
>Inquisition has him tortured and imprisoned, roman NPCs want him killed
>dies in jail
>Church knee-jerks away from mysticism from that point onward

The teachings of Molinos are the best example of why you need initiatory lineage for some teachings. If you give them to the normies they get misinterpreted and become harmful

[Anonymous No.17863578]

This is literally why the Church exists in the first place, it's so normal-ass people don't do stupid things with Scripture and Tradition. The Church exists to steer people correctly.

[Anonymous No.17863593]

>be priest
>rape little boys
>it’s okay because if caught, the Church will just give you a slap on the wrist, and transfer you to some other town with other little boys
>repeat second step endlessly

[Anonymous No.17863621]

>>17863593
>he hasn't taken the pederast pill
Pleb

[Anonymous No.17863661]

You realize we already have perfectly fine mystics, right?

[Anonymous No.17863714]

>>17863661
Yup, and they say largely the same thing as Molinos, albeit with a bit more caution/qualification

Difference was that their works never got as popular as his, as they were largely aimed at monks and nuns rather than lay people

[Anonymous No.17863719]

>>17863714
>albeit with a bit more caution/qualification

This is important, the caution is warranted. You have to be careful fucking around with mysticism, you can let things in that shouldn't be there. Quite frankly, this is why mysticism isn't for everyone. Not everyone can do it, which is why it is not part of essential Christian practice.

[Anonymous No.17863762]

>>17863719
By caution I mean they explained their teachings with more nuance (although you are correct that caution is needed to avoid prelest, this is why he recommends having a spiritual director)

Part of what fucked Molinos was that he would say things that were fine theologically but could be taken out of context by retards.

Good example is when he argues that the more advanced you are, the harder the Devil will try to tempt you, in which case you should respond with resignation and love rather than struggling against it. Retards took this to mean that it's fine if you commit sins but don't consent to it internally, basically

>Quite frankly, this is why mysticism isn't for everyone. Not everyone can do it, which is why it is not part of essential Christian practice.

Ironically this is exactly what he argues, meditation has its place for those who aren't suited to Contemplation, but this was taken out of context by normies to mean "if you're a special spiritual person you shouldn't bother with meditation, that's for plebs", so you get people refusing to say the rosary or whatever

So the main flaw here is that it induces prelest in normies, so it should be restricted to trained initiates. As you say, it's not for everyone- his main flaw was in trying to present it to the masses

[Anonymous No.17863787]

>>17863762
>Part of what fucked Molinos was that he would say things that were fine theologically but could be taken out of context by retards.
The same thing happened to Meister Eckhart.

[Anonymous No.17863798]

>>17863787
Strangely, Eckhart was given some vague condemnation but his work was never actually listed as heterodox, he's still in good standing with the Church

Molinos got labelled as this arch-heretic by comparison. Interestingly few enough of the charges against him apply to The Spiritual Guide, they're mostly alleged to have been in oral teachings or letters, but we can't verify it because the letters got destroyed when Rome was occupied by the French (I think) later on

[Anonymous No.17863865]

>>17863560
> initiatory lineage

Give me three explanations
1. For a high iq
2. For a midwif
3. Simplified

[Anonymous No.17863914]

>>17863865
Of an initiatory lineage?

>You get initiated into a tradition through a ceremony in person from a person in the tradition
>You are not in the tradition if you haven't had this. Esoterically it also affects you on a deeper level and begins a process of internal change, which the ceremony is designed to kickstart
>You learn from this person and become another link in the initiatory chain
>You repeat the process with a student

It's a good way of keeping teachings under control in an auditable line of masters and students, excluding untrained outsiders who don't know how to use them. It has its flaws and doesn't always work well but it's better than pearls before swine, which produces prelest

In theory baptism performed this function originally in Christianity but as it became the norm it became less effective as a gatekeeping mechanism (also arguably as a means of initiating on a deeper level if you believe Guenon).

Catholicism at one point had a strong tradition of spiritual direction (trusted third party who would audit your experience to prevent prelest), which Molinos strongly recommends, but this has vanished in the modern era

This is the theory at least, some people don't think it's necessary but imho I think a good initiatory tradition keeps out unstable/crazy/dumb people, keeps its teachings from getting lost or corrupted and helps talented initiates understand the teachings and evolve spiritually

[Anonymous No.17863945]

>>17863914
>a gatekeeping mechanism

Honestly this is the heart of all the objections, to me. There IS no gatekeeping in Christianity. It's antithetical to Christianity's core message, that Christ came to save all and died to redeem the sins of all. In theory, the end goal of Christianity involves every single person on Earth becoming Christian. It's not some mystery cult or esoteric thing. There is no hidden knowledge. The idea is that everything you need to be a good Christian is contained in the Bible and the Church's standard teachings, which are freely given away to all.

Obviously in practice there are going to be people who reject Christianity, as well as people who are better Christians than others. The idea of the saints is a direct aspect of this. But the core of Christianity is that salvation is given away to all who believe, no matter how smart or stupid, wise or foolish, skilled or unskilled, they may be. It simply isn't possible to turn Christianity into some kind of initiatory experience.

[Anonymous No.17864032]

>>17863945
I agree that

>the teachings of christ are sufficient to attain perfection (i.e. divine union)
>this perfection is available to all in the Church

However:

>There IS no gatekeeping in Christianity

Internally there's no gatekeeping but there is for externals. The necessity of Baptism implies that a distinction between initiates and profane, this is the origin of the Catechumens/Faithful split in the Mass, originally non-initiates would have to leave before the host was consecrated.

What I'm implying is that some minor additional gatekeeping might be beneficial in the case of advanced contemplative theology and practice.

>In theory, the end goal of Christianity involves every single person on Earth becoming Christian

No, converting everyone is a means to an end, simply being baptised and believing in the teachings of Christ does not imply that you have attained perfection of any sort.

> It's not some mystery cult or esoteric thing.

It is a mystery cult, that is not a bad thing. It makes use of both mysteries and esoteric teachings, but these are not hidden, and there is less division between exo/esotericism than other religions

>But the core of Christianity is that salvation is given away to all who believe, no matter how smart or stupid, wise or foolish, skilled or unskilled, they may be.

It is given, but not to just anyone who believes (sola fidei is heresy for a reason)

You're missing the point of why Christ said not to cast pearls before swine- to those who are spiritually immature, certain teachings about advanced mystical states can be harmful as they will misunderstand them, this is what happened with Molinos. As such some gatekeeping is beneficial to prevent prelest.

>It simply isn't possible to turn Christianity into some kind of initiatory experience

Baptism by definition is initiation. This is why RCIA stands for Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults.

[Anonymous No.17864057]

>>17863560
Molinos is gigabased, but he did make the mistake of divulging his knowledgr to the masses. People are not suited for complex theological inquiries, they have never been and will never be.
Even the Gita which is one of the most transparent and self-explanatory of the sacred texts was meant for a select group of initiates at it's conception.
It's why Jesus spoke in parables or why Sola Scriptura is a complete philosophical aberration, because people simply can't grasp the deeper meanings.

[Anonymous No.17864085]

Was she a fraud? Apparently they tested her and she was deemed to be of sound mind

[Anonymous No.17864393]

Seems the best Christian authors were the ones hounded by the Church.

[Anonymous No.17864767]

>>17863945
>In theory, the end goal of Christianity involves every single person on Earth becoming Christian.
Which is stupid and will never happen

>Obviously in practice there are going to be people who reject Christianity, as well as people who are better Christians than others.
Yep, and changes in doctrine, and non-Christians who will end up living more virtuously than Christians, which the Bible can’t explain

[Anonymous No.17864785]

>In spring 1687, Molinos was brought before a tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition and asked to explain his teaching, with 263 questionable propositions from his works at stake. Although initially defending them, by May 1687 his attitude had changed and he confessed his errors of conduct and teaching and waived his opportunity to present a defence.

[Anonymous No.17865135]

>>17864785
>Vigorously defended himself in multiple books and essays
>is arrested
>Shortly after confesses to absolutely everything

Wow I wonder what could have happened

[Anonymous No.17865136]

>>17863621
go read the symposium again

[Anonymous No.17865212]

>>17863798
Eckhart would have been killed if he hadn't died already

[Anonymous No.17865229]

>>17865136
Alcibiades literally throws a tantrum because no one fucks boys in the symposium.

[Anonymous No.17866255]

>>17863945
There is some very hard gatekeeping mentioned in the Bible, but most Christians ignore it. Jesus and the Apostles have said many times that you must forsake and hate the world, and love Him over your friends and family if you want to be saved. It also says in 1 Corinthians 10 that you shouldn't marry because caring for your spouse would be a worldly distraction. Yes, the baptism is by definition open to all, but Christianity is austere at its core, and very few are qualified to walk this path.

[Anonymous No.17866335]

>>17864767
>non-Christians who will end up living more virtuously than Christians

Define "virtue" in this context.

[Anonymous No.17866381]

>>17866255
>Jesus and the Apostles have said many times that you must forsake and hate the world, and love Him over your friends and family if you want to be saved. It also says in 1 Corinthians 10 that you shouldn't marry because caring for your spouse would be a worldly distraction.

There's a difference between having certain standards and actively trying to keep people out. Christianity does the former, but not the latter.

[Anonymous No.17866410]

>>17863762
>Retards took this to mean that it's fine if you commit sins but don't consent to it internally, basically
Now I have to find that sect that misinterpreted the problem of who to do charity to (charity to the good raises them up but charity to the wicked further damns them, so they thought the Christian thing to do would be to be dicks to everyone and thus save the wicked from further torment)

[Anonymous No.17866459]

>>17863914
>You get initiated into a tradition through a ceremony in person from a person in the tradition
>You are not in the tradition if you haven't had this. Esoterically it also affects you on a deeper level and begins a process of internal change, which the ceremony is designed to kickstart
>You learn from this person and become another link in the initiatory chain
>You repeat the process with a student
Isn’t this what the Catholic Church does already, going all the way back to Christ?
> 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

[Anonymous No.17866598]

>>17863578
This.

Even as early as the 4th-5th century church, mystics were often relegated to a group of monks who went out of their way to not be a part of city life.

It's doubtful Alebrto Gonzalez in Mexico is going to abandon his wife and 4 kids so he could LARP as a Christian-firendly wizard.