/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17839799]

Dune is just mediocre YA. Why do so many people like it?

[Anonymous No.17839801]

Filtered

[Anonymous No.17839803]

>>17839799
i have the same quesiton.i think it has to do with progressive politics, but i guess i'd have to read it to really say

[Anonymous No.17839805]

>>17839799
It predated YA, so it can't be YA. It's plain sci-fi for the general audience.

[Anonymous No.17839810]

>>17839803
also imo (i only read one chapter of each), this is in par with Blood Meridian, just a different genre

[Anonymous No.17839818]

>>17839805
>It predated YA, so it can't be YA.
That's not how it really works. Plus it was only published a couple years before The Outsiders, which is definitely YA.

[Anonymous No.17839853]

First because is LotR condensed into one book. The payoff being a trilogy that tries to explore a plot that spans thousands of years.

The reason why the series is considered interesting is how it tries to explore the concept of the "universal constant" through spice. It's important to consider the idea of a product that can transform you into a navigator (getting utterly booted up and experiencing the 4th dimension) but also seems to have some widespread commercial appeal in the Dune universe.

Paul's downfall is meant to encompass the difficulties of being a prophet, that being that others don't see what he see's, so language falls short of what he wants to describe to salvage the jihad. This was another very popular discussion in the 60s, was the idea of language being on equal terms with all creative mediums, and it's limitations in fully expressing ourselves.

FR constantly reiterated that the books were fiction, and not attainable goals, the parallel to Jared's regime being fascist regime in our reality.

[Anonymous No.17839873]

Lawrence of Arabia crossed with a teen boy coming of age story in space with big worms and melange eating navigators.......what's not to like?

[Anonymous No.17839879]

>>17839818
>That's not how it really works.
That's exactly how it works, man. It can't be something that didn't exist yet.

[Anonymous No.17839897]

>>17839879
But... The Outsiders...

[Anonymous No.17840364]

>>17839803
Why would you admit to not having read a book then give an opinion on it?

Dune is definitely not YA, the last two books were close though. Books 1-4 were all very interesting to read, I enjoyed them a lot. Books 1&2 covered the experience of knowing your own future, book 3 covered knowing your past through ancestral memories, and book 4 covered knowing both and becoming god-like through omniscience. 5 and 6 were just frank herbet writing sexual fan-fiction tier garbage set in his own universe

[Anonymous No.17840483]

>>17839799
How can you say that, anon, when the ending is so iconic?
>and it turned out, le woman was the one in chawge the whole time

[Anonymous No.17840867]

>>17839801
>Filtered

[Anonymous No.17841215]

>>17839799
They don't.

[Anonymous No.17841279]

>>17839799
SF/fantasy YA and its cliches as they're currently understood didn't coalesce until decades after the publication of Dune. Thousands of garbage YA books have since ripped off aspects of it and other older SF books, so a reader now reading Dune after having their mind polluted by YA might find it reminiscent of YA.

[Anonymous No.17841331]

>>17839799
It is mediocre, but it's not YA.

[Anonymous No.17841983]

>>17839799
I read this last year. I thought I liked while reading it but after I finished I realized I was deluding myself the whole time.
Don't understand why people are saying it's not YA. The prose is simple, some of the themes border on the complex but really are just novel. Paul is the chosen one, meets a girl, becomes a man, becomes the king.
To be quite honest it should be classified as a children's book. Remember the days when Count of Monte Cristo was considered as such? I member.

[Anonymous No.17842291]

>>17839799
The style is YA-level, but the ideas are not. And sci-fi is (or should be) all about ideas.
The basic problem with sci-fi writers is their lack of imagination. They just keep re-heating the same old cliches. Dune is admired because it's a rare case of genuinely imaginative sci-fi.

[Anonymous No.17842460]

>>17839873
This

[Anonymous No.17843967]

>>17841331
What's good?

[Anonymous No.17843982]

homosexual manchild boomers

[Anonymous No.17843991]

>>17839853
Why did Herbert have to use words like jihad? Honestly just makes it sound like a larp.

[Anonymous No.17844032]

>>17840867
no argument tranny

[Anonymous No.17844044]

A lot if mediocre yound adults desu

[Anonymous No.17844047]

>>17841215
they do

[Anonymous No.17844057]

>>17839799
Just because you have subhuman shit taste doesn't mean everyone else does OP.

[Anonymous No.17844062]

>>17840483
t. retard

[Anonymous No.17844069]

>>17841983
You clearly missed the whole point of the book. Imagine being this retarded.

[Anonymous No.17844582]

>Gary Stu teenage character is the chosen one with a secret power but also some inner demons. He has to break away from his life of comfort and his family to pursue his own path.
Yep sounds like YA to me.

[Anonymous No.17844600]

>>17839799
So many people like it exactly because it is mediocre and YA.

[Anonymous No.17844645]

>bog standard hero's journey story with substandard prose
>takes place in a desert

[Anonymous No.17844654]

>>17839799
>>17844600
/sffg/ subhumans aside, luckily I've seen people on here agreeing that Dune is garbage more often than not.

[Anonymous No.17844663]

>>17844645
what's the appeal of those fucking plastic figures?

[Anonymous No.17845418]

>>17844582
>Gary Stu
tranny exposed himself.
>>17844600
it's the best sci-fi subhuman.
>>17844645
ywnbaw
>>17844654
only subhumans don't like Dune. Keep coping troon.

[Anonymous No.17845433]

>>17839799
It's best sci-fi book faggot OP

[Anonymous No.17845467]

>>17839799
I was thinking exactly this as I was reading it today.
>Why do so many people like it?
My guess would be because it touches on a few philosophical and theological concepts that must have been quite novel for scifi at the time of publication. The problem is, aside from presenting these concepts and treating them with a kind of faux reverence and mysticism, the author doesn't really have much to say about them.

[Anonymous No.17845472]

No point in responding to this thread because OP will never substantiate what he means by "mediocre" and won't provide any points that can be argued with so it's basically just him sitting on a throne shaking his finger saying no while the rest of you faggots try to suck him off. Just don't engage. Dune is great and I've never seen a cogent argument AGAINST it being one of the best sci-fi books ever.

Only thing approaching an argument I've seen is this: >>17844645

>>17844654
Cringy appeal to popularity, and stupid irrelevant argument implying Dune lacks literary merit because it's sci-fi.

[Anonymous No.17845477]

>>17845467
but he does. Don't speedread next time dipshit.

[Anonymous No.17845581]

>>17845477
He really doesn't... at least, not with any real depth. Dune to me appears to be a work of aesthetics primarily. The desert, the worms, the asceticism, the hyper psychology and precognition... it all felt as if the author was trying to grasp at ideas he had no real intention of exploring. Take the fremen as an example: they exist as nomads, and we are immediately expected as readers to recognise this nomadism as good and holy in contrast to the Houses because... because asceticism is its own virtue? Nomadism is indeed superior, but this book never once reveals why. It's a little like someone took Jesus, made him into a tribe, deprived Him of all His wondrous sayings and ethics, and just expected us to be happy with the idea of following this through a desert for three hundred or so pages. It smacks of Orientalism. That other poster is right - there's no real reason for Herbert to use words like "Jihad" and "O.C. Bible." Together with almost every other concept presented in this book, they serve purely as window dressing to draw the reader in with the promise of epistemological depth. Only, when you've actually arrived, you realise the dressing is all there is. I haven't finished the book yet; I am on the last chunk or so. Perhaps in the final fifty pages it gets really good and everything clicks. But these are my thoughts thus far.

[Anonymous No.17845640]

>>17845581
>nomadism as good
he never says that retard. All he showed was how stagnant empire was. Fremen were well trained because that's all they did in their desert, while empire set on their ass satisfied with mediocrity. Herbert never said that nomadism was good. All he showed was that nomads were easily manipulated retards whose basic religious tenets are specifically created to control them.
>It smacks of Orientalism
only faggots use that word.
>there's no real reason for Herbert to use words like "Jihad" and "O.C. Bible."
But there is retard-kun. Jihad because Lawrence of Arabia parallel and O.C bible because in this future every religion is merged together.

[Anonymous No.17845670]

>>17845640
>set on their ass

[Anonymous No.17845674]

>>17845670
I accept your concession

[Anonymous No.17845709]

>>17845640
>All he showed was how stagnant empire was. Fremen were well trained because that's all they did in their desert, while empire set on their ass satisfied with mediocrity. Herbert never said that nomadism was good. All he showed was that nomads were easily manipulated retards whose basic religious tenets are specifically created to control them.
Yeah, this just functions as a clumsy description of what's written. It does nothing to remedy my criticism.
>in this future every religion is merged together.
Which is especially disappointing because its a vapid attempt at Hegelian unity of opposites. Yet - and again I repeat myself - the author never once tries to explore this concept. He smashes terms together and leaves it at that.

[Anonymous No.17845732]

>>17845709
>It does nothing to remedy my criticism.
it does subhuman, especially because your criticism is dogshit and unfounded.
>a vapid attempt at Hegelian unity of opposites.
no it's not and your headcanon is worthless.
> the author never once tries to explore this concept
why should he that was not point of his books.
Any better arguments retard-kun?

[Anonymous No.17845767]

>>17845640
>were easily manipulated retards
This is your interpretation. There's a heavy implication of sanctity around the Fremens' way of life that the reader is enjoined to respect.
>whose basic religious tenets are specifically created to control them.
Again though, this isn't actually depicted as a bad thing given the author's fairly obvious approval of perennialism: the sisterhood are manipulators even of theology, yes, but the fruits of this manipulation are presented in an excessively positive light if anything.

[Anonymous No.17845775]

>>17845732
>it does subhuman, especially because your criticism is dogshit and unfounded.
ad hom ad hom ad hom... I accept your concession, my friend. See >>17845767 for more of me dunking on your ill formed opinions.

[Anonymous No.17845786]

>>17845732
>no it's not and your headcanon is worthless.
If you think belief systems like "Zen Sufism" and "Orange Catholic" aren't obvious references to the Hegelian dialectic, I have a bridge to sell you.

[Anonymous No.17845801]

>>17845767
>This is your interpretation.
You are absolutely retarded. Their faith is created by BG and only reason they think Paul is mahdi is because of that speedreading retard.
>but the fruits of this manipulation are presented in an excessively positive light if anything.
But they are not subhuman. Because he literally warns people against charismatic leaders. Especially when they cause galactic jihad.
>>17845775
You still have not given good argument. I literally dismantled your pseud low IQ posts faggot.
>>17845786
no they are not. He just used synchretic religions as a backdrop. Keep coping.

[Anonymous No.17845820]

>>17839879
>atoms didn't exist until the concept of them was invented

[Anonymous No.17845823]

>>17845820
retarded analogy. Kill yourself drooling moron.

[Anonymous No.17845850]

>>17845801
>You are absolutely retarded. Their faith is created by BG and only reason they think Paul is mahdi is because of that speedreading retard.
I meant its your interpretation that it's a wholly bad thing. Why am I not surprised that your reading comprehension is lousy?
>Because he literally warns people against charismatic leaders.
In the first book? Paul is presented as reluctant due to the great misery he feels he is destined to bring about, but there's little about the work of the Sisterhood being an objectively bad thing. Paul is still the hero, after all. And his very existence is the result of continued manipulation.
>I literally dismantled your pseud low IQ posts faggot.
You have done nothing but reveal your own insecurity through ad hom after ad hom. Take a chill pill, bud. Or develop a better vocabulary.
>as a backdrop.
Yes. They simply act as window dressing and little else; thank you for repeating one of my earlier points back to me.

[Anonymous No.17845898]

>>17845850
>its your interpretation that it's a wholly bad thing.
it's not brainlet, especially when herbert himself says this. Especially when Paul know about this dark foreboding future that he is desperately trying to avoid.
>work of the Sisterhood being an objectively bad thing.
It's shown that it's bad thing from the beginning when Jessica literally disobeys their order and later when they lose control over Paul.
>You have done nothing
amusing considering you still have not given a good argument.
>They simply act as window dressing
yes that's the point of this particular aspec of world building dumbfuck. Not everything needs to have a explanation. That was not a point of books.

[Anonymous No.17846010]

>>17845898
>it's not brainlet, especially when herbert himself says this. Especially when Paul know about this dark foreboding future that he is desperately trying to avoid.
>the author explains it this way that means its good and conveyed as intended
lol
>they lose control over Paul
Your point was that their manipulations are presented as a wholly negative thing; my point is that the hero could not have come into existence without them so clearly the BG and their actions are a little more complex than you have gleaned. Keep up.
>amusing considering you still have not given a good argument.
>y- you have no good argument
Aw, you think this qualifies as a rebuttal?
>Not everything needs to have a explanation.
No it doesn't. But it does need to have some compelling relevance to the wider plot. If your work is replete with arcane and mystic terms that don't actually lead anywhere or get explored, it's going to be pretty shallow.

[Anonymous No.17846038]

>lol
I accept your surrender brainlet.
>my point is that the hero could not have come into existence without them
but he literally came into existence without them dipshit. You really are a speedreader.
>Aw, you think this qualifies as a rebuttal?
yes it does troon.
>But it does need to have some compelling relevance to the wider plot.
no it does not my low IQ friend. Especially when it does not affect original intention of the author.
Keep coping

[Anonymous No.17846047]

>>17846038
here>>17846010

[Anonymous No.17846071]

>>17846038
>but he literally came into existence without them dipshit.
What? Paul is born as a result of centuries of eugenic husbandry on their part.
>ad hom ad hom ad hom
If your intention is to come across as someone with a head injury, please continue.
>no it does not
Compelling argument. Terminology with no wider meaning functions as nothing more than padding and unfulfilled promise on the part of the author. I am so sorry this obvious point went over your head. Do try to jump next time and maybe you'll finally get it.

[Anonymous No.17846080]

>>17844032
>>17845418
>calling people tranny while defending your manchild desert space worm book

[Anonymous No.17846087]

>>17840364
i've read the first chapter, skimmed through it, and have talked about it with people who have read it.

[Anonymous No.17846091]

>>17845472
Not him but I have never read a book that so vehemently downplays the reader's intelligence like Dune. The author can't resist detailing the characters' thoughts at ANY given moment, it's fucking egregious.

[Anonymous No.17846104]

>>17846071
>Paul is born as a result of centuries of eugenic husbandry
he was born because his mother disobeyed the order, otherwise he would be some random girl speedreader.
>If your intention is to come across
my intention is btfoing your retarded points.
>Compelling argument.
Yes it it, thanks. I love how you dodge my point though you pathetic weasel.
> unfulfilled promise
there was no promise dumbfuck. You post like a retarded GURM with his tax policy question. Keep coping.
>>17846080
no argument troon.
>>17846091
you got filtered low IQ vermin.

[Anonymous No.17846106]

>this retard defending Dune with the same talking points as a weeaboo defending a VN rather than applying actual literary criticisms

[Anonymous No.17846113]

>>17846106
still btfoing retarded arguments and you can do nothing about it except cowardly avoid direclty responding to me like a seething woman.

[Anonymous No.17846122]

>>17846080
>wojakposter ledditor thinks he is not a tranny.

[Anonymous No.17846142]

>>17846104
>you got filtered low IQ vermin.
On the contrary, I would argue this only displays the author's clumsiness and lack of skill in characterization or narration. Characters should be analyzed through their actions and dialogue, not through the author directly commuting to us.

[Anonymous No.17846149]

>>17846104
>he was born because his mother disobeyed the order, otherwise he would be some random girl speedreader.
You call me a "speedreader" yet the fact that Paul is who he is precisely because a large portion of the BG's eugenic husbandry did in fact take somehow went over your head? Paul with all the abilities that make him Paul would not exist without the BG. And Paul is the hero of the first book in large part thanks to those abilities. Simple as.
>my intention is btfoing your retarded points.
Judging by the way multiple anons keep dunking on you post after post, you're doing a pretty bad job.
>Yes it is!
OK. Keep affirming the validity of your own arguments to yourself in the absence of any real recognition from others and see how far that gets you.
>there was no promise dumbfuck
...anon. I wasn't talking about a literal promise. Come on now. You can't be this dull.

[Anonymous No.17846181]

>>17846142
characters don't think like usual people because they are autistic future royalty that can read people by expression. That's why they overanalyze reactions. Nothing lazy here.
>Paul is who he is precisely because a large portion of the BG's
that's surface level reading dumbfuck. The point is that he was not perfect chosen one. He was not manipulated and created his own path despite eugenics.
>multiple anons
multiple retards and wojakposters, nice company there champ. If we are gonna talk about popular support you are outnumbered by much better critics subhuman.
>recognition from others
see above
>I wasn't talking about a literal promise
I was not either speedreading retard.

[Anonymous No.17846195]

>>17846149
for you
>>17846181

[Anonymous No.17846221]

>>17846080
you will never be a woman

[Anonymous No.17846229]

>>17846091
AYRT, that's fair I guess.

[Anonymous No.17846234]

Based Dunefag btfoing pseudoretards kek.

[Anonymous No.17846235]

>>17846104
>>17846122
>>17846221
meds, take them.

[Anonymous No.17846246]

>>17846235
he thinks everyone who disagrees with him is the same person. May be you are the one who needs meds.

[Anonymous No.17846247]

>>17846181
>characters don't think like usual people
>uh... yeah... I mostly tell rather than show because my... hmm... my-my characters... my characters are from the future
:DDDDD
>that's surface level reading dumbfuck.
No it isn't. It's a pertinent point which is exactly why you're now moving the goalposts away from them being somewhat of a positive influence (my original contention) to this idea that they must have been "bad" because Paul *wasn't* exactly what they had planned (he was however 90% of what they had planned).
>and wojakposters
One person has posted a wojack in this thread and it wasn't even to you. Calm down.
>I was not either
I believe you. Millions wouldn't.

[Anonymous No.17846250]

>>17844654
/sffg/ chad here, I fucking hate Dune

[Anonymous No.17846254]

>>17846246
see >>17846235

[Anonymous No.17846267]

>17846247
>:DDDDD
I accept your surrender.
>you're now moving the goalposts
no I am not dipshit. 90% is not enough retard. That's the whole point.
>One person
irrelevant keep coping.
>>17846250
keep dilating
>>17846254
see>>17846235

[Anonymous No.17846282]

>>17846267
>>17846247

[Anonymous No.17846288]

>>17846267
>so mad he can't even bring himself to quote the reply properly
loving every laugh XD

[Anonymous No.17846295]

>>17846288
>to quote the reply properly
but I did newfag

[Anonymous No.17846377]

>>17846267
>these people who are directly responsible for selecting 90% of the protagonist's positive moral traits - traits which they themselves embody to the nth degree - are somehow actually 100% evil according to my reading of the text
l e l
e l
l

I cannot believe there are still people circa 2021 who are getting filtered by the "manipulations" of the "evil" bene gesserit. The WHOLE point of their order within the narrative is to act as a kind of false flag to the reader, reminiscent of the austere and potentially sadistic aspect of a nunnery. We're supposed to suspect them at first, yet gradually come round to accepting at least part of what they do and hope for the universe. Ergo, their "manipulations" of other cultures are not presented in a light that is definitively negative. To the contrary, these manipulations are actually required for the great work overall to succeed! Yes. Paul was not a perfect representation of their plans. But he was exceedingly close, and he did succeed.

[Anonymous No.17846399]

>>17846377
no one said they were pure evil. I said Herbert never put their and fremen way of life as an absolute perfect system. Especially fremen.

[Anonymous No.17846458]

>>17846399
No one claimed that the fremen were presented as being "absolutely perfect."

[Anonymous No.17846479]

>>17846458
but you did claim that Herbert was associating Fremen life to something holy and superior to Imperial life. When it's the opposite.

[Anonymous No.17846620]

>>17839799
It's a very simple story, basically Lawrence of Arabia in space. Back when it was written most people didn't know much about the Arab world annd so copying them felt alienand exotic. Paul also doesn't pudge an inch from his Atreidis morals and upbringing, even though he lives amongst a strange people.
He doesn't even really acquire the purely technical skills of desert survival of them, since his preknowledge of the suit shows that he already knows these things.
So Dune doesn't challenge western morals at all.

Plus the book is covered in mysticism, that boils down to plot wank. Which obfuscates the symplistic nature of the story.

[Anonymous No.17846638]

>>17846479
Yes but that's a fair claim on my part. The Fremen way of life is very obviously presented as being superior to the corrupt Houses in the first book.

[Anonymous No.17846654]

>>17846638
but it's not. Only superior to Harkonens. Who were degenerate child rapists. If nomad life was superior paul would have dismantled an empire. Instead he took over. Fremen culture will vanish.

[Anonymous No.17846689]

>>17846654
Howard made the same point better.

[Anonymous No.17846694]

>>17846689
Howard has never made any point except the one in his head.

[Anonymous No.17846714]

>>17846654
>If nomad life was superior
It is presented as being morally superior.

[Anonymous No.17846722]

>>17846714
repeating same thing won't make your argument sound. You still have not addresses my post btw. Nice surface level reading.

[Anonymous No.17846746]

>>17846694
Robert E Howard. This cycle of barbarian conquerors and weak civilized men is better made in his writing.

[Anonymous No.17846773]

>>17846746
>This cycle of barbarian conquerors and weak civilized men
good because that was not the theme of Dune. Paul was civilized man. Who used his civilized methods and civilized order's prophecies to control brainless barbarians in accomplishing his mission, meanwhile killing barbarian culture. Hell Paul and his mother literally teach fremen better civilized way of fighting.

[Anonymous No.17846777]

>>17839799
I love how everytime something is mediocre its 'YA'.
As if anything young adult is trash (which, if you are not a teenager, it is)

[Anonymous No.17846778]

>>17846722
Mate, as others have already pointed out, it's a simplstic tale of boy joins tribe, tribe shows boy the way, boy meets tribe girl, boy becomes leader, boy becomes king. The Fremen are obviously presented as superior because they are the ultimate instrument of Paul's will, just as the Navi are the instrument of Jake's will, and the Apache are the instrument of the protagonist's will in Dances with Wolves. The "savage" is always the superior one morally in these stories and it's precisely this superior morality that causes them to overcome in the end. Now, things go a little off the railes in the second book, but we're not talking about the second book.

[Anonymous No.17846791]

>>17846778
>others have already pointed out
retards don't count. Again if you want to talk about others, better critics have said that it's the best the genre has to offer. Quit hiding under other's opinions.
>The "savage" is always the superior one morally
but it's not the case her. Because Paul does not choose savage way of life. Only uses them as a fodder.

[Anonymous No.17846796]

>>17846777
Yes. But it's a question of degree and of how we delude ourselves in order to maintain prior popularities. Some of the Horus Heresy novels appear to me to be better written than the first Dune book, but you will never have to hear people harp on about them the way they feel they need to about Dune whenver it's brought up. Makes me wonder about which philosophers are actually quite vapid.

[Anonymous No.17846806]

>>17846796
>Some of the Horus Heresy novels appear to me to be better written than the first Dune book
ok now I know you are absolute drooling retard. That's all I needed to know.

[Anonymous No.17846816]

>>17839799
Dune is a good book OP you're just being a massive contrarian faggot who probably
A. doesn't even fucking read
B. if he does read reads literal garbage (e.g. anything written after 1987 WILL be burned during the intifada)

[Anonymous No.17846834]

>>17846791
>other people
And? We're in this thread right here right now and you've been consistently btfo'd. Know when to admit you're wrong. You've put forward insult after insult and have succeeded only in making yourself look like a fool.
>Because Paul does not choose savage way of life.
That's highly debatable. He certainly takes on a huge number of their cultural and religious trappings and centres his empire upon their planet. That's "choosing the savage way of life" in most people's books, anon.

[Anonymous No.17846849]

>>17846806
>this YA novel is CRINGE
>this YA novel is BASED
thanks for continuing to prove my point

[Anonymous No.17846861]

>>17846773
The book literally ends with Paul making it so that Fremen culture remains and does not go soft and gets civilized.

[Anonymous No.17846872]

>>17846834
>you've been consistently btfo'd
other way around troon. You have not refute anything. I really enjoy embarrassing you.
>>17846834
>That's highly debatable.
it's not. Keep coping. That's not savage way of life if he is not a nomad dipshit. He uses planet because it has spice.
>>17846849
But Dune is not YA 40k fag.
>>17846861
But that's literally opposite of what happens speedreader.

[Anonymous No.17846900]

>>17846791
Not that Anon, but if you don't see how the Fremen were depicted as morally superiour to the old not-Persian empire, you need to go for easier books.

Example, the remarkable self discipline of the Fremen that allowed them to amass huge quantities of water.

[Anonymous No.17846910]

>>17846872
>Dune is not YA
lol

[Anonymous No.17846919]

>>17846872
It's one of the points Paul makes to the emperor, after his total victory. The book even points out that conversely, the prison world of the Sardaucar will be turned into a paradise. Go for easier books.

[Anonymous No.17846926]

YA novels are kino because the themes are always great. Adult "serious business fiction" is usually pretensious boring garbage.

[Anonymous No.17846933]

>>17846900
>remarkable self discipline of the Fremen that allowed them to amass huge quantities of water.
how is that point towards their superiority. That's literally all they can do to survive and not go extinct. Imperials don't have any need for this.
They are literally fodder and battle hardened that's it. That don't contribute anything except being a fodder for Paul's ascension.
>>17846910
I accept your surrender.
>>17846919
but it's literally opposite of what happens dipshit. And your point about paradise is proof of that.

[Anonymous No.17846953]

Every Dune book after the first one is garbage fanfic tier trash. The first book was fantastic, groundbreaking, etc. The rest can be burned on a pyre.

[Anonymous No.17846955]

>>17846933
>I accept your surrender.
>he said for the eighth consecutive time after being thoroughly rinsed by everyone else in this thread
Who do you think you're kidding besides yourself? You've already shown you've got the ego of a gnat.

[Anonymous No.17846970]

>>17846953
Messiah is better than Dune. Children is below average. GE is best. Other two - have no clue.
>>17846955
more like btfoing multiple lowIQ vermin. You stil have not made a point. Explain how Dune is YA.

[Anonymous No.17846987]

>>17846970
>You stil have not made a point
Yeah, you keep saying this despite the fact that multiple people have gone to great lengths to try and help you with paragraphs worth of painstaking explanation. Could it be that the problm is with you?

[Anonymous No.17846996]

>>17846987
I refute and dunked on all those retards. you still have not made any point.
>multiple people
stop hiding behind others' opinions npc. Now answer my question.

[Anonymous No.17847010]

>>17846996
>and dunked on
Resorting to using the terminology of your opponents is an obvious sign of intellectual insecurity on your part, matey

[Anonymous No.17847017]

>>17843967
what's REAL good nyukka?

[Anonymous No.17847018]

>>17847010
>terminology of your opponents
they didn't come up with that expression. Now answer my question vermin.

[Anonymous No.17847027]

>>17847010
thanks meme police
lmfao fucking faggot

[Anonymous No.17847041]

>>17847018
>>17847027
Samefag who is clearly spilling his spaghetti LOL

[Anonymous No.17847052]

>>17847041
I am not samefagging insecure retard. It's funny how I have never accused anyone of samefagging but the moment you got any opposition now everyone has to be samefagging. Who has the ego now. But were is the answer though.

[Anonymous No.17847091]

>>17847041
I would've paid attention to this post but it appears you've made the error of posting an out of date meme. Heh, tough break, better luck next time pal.

[Anonymous No.17847236]

Herbert really drives home the message that without genetic engineering driven by computational technology, cultural, racial and sexual differences are baked into us at a fundamental level and have a disproportionate influence on our collective worldview.

Unlike some schmucks, he manages to do this without resorting to racism or sexism. The sexes, races and cultures are extremely different. Left to their own devices for too long and provided with enough technology to make their isolation semi-sustainable, existing qualities that we choose to ignore or that are comically overstated by bigots are grow into near universal forces.

Seems pretty unique to me, as this isn't a topic most can touch without taking it in some ethnocentric or bigoted direction.

[Anonymous No.17847659]

dude i'm a worm lmao

[Anonymous No.17847661]

>>17845709
>a vapid attempt at Hegelian unity of opposites
you don't understand hegel if you think he's about unity whatsoever

[Anonymous No.17847675]

>>17845786
There is hegelianism in the book but it has nothing to do with synthesized religions you moron
What's hegelian is what makes the book good ie the quotations of muad'dib "science of discontents" and all that

[Anonymous No.17847986]

>>17846104
You misunderstood a major point of the book.

The bg had been breeding for Paul's ability to see the future, the only issue was that Jessica birthed him even though he was male. If he was female, as intended, he would have had the same powers but would have been raised bg and not allowed access to spice until the trial to become a reverend mother. The bg would have owned the kh and controlled the future instead of letting Paul control them.

[Anonymous No.17848016]

ITT: pseuds thoroughly misunderstand a fantastic series and reduce it to a story about one kid because they couldn't grasp the actual topic

[Anonymous No.17848220]

I am very unimpressed by your understanding of dune, /lit/. I will write a plot/theme synopsis of mine. I read the series once last year so I might miss some things, but it will be much better than the anons shit-talking each other.

Book 1
Many of you have said the storyline is a basic kid becomes hero archetype, you are very wrong.
Paul is not a hero, he is one of the worst-off characters in the series. He is the result of BG breeding programs designed to produce someone who can both see the future through spice and see the past through ancestor's memories. He was intended to be a girl, trained and raised by the BG to control her. His mother loved his father and gave birth to him as a boy anyways. When the harkonnens kill pauls father and drive him to the desert, he is forced to live with the fremen to survive. This happens because the BG sent a missionary to the fremen in the past to begin a religion based around the possibility of a BG and her child needing protection in the future, as is common when BG marry nobles and the nobleman dies in a feud. None of the "prophecies" are truly religious in nature, they were created by the BG for other BG to fit the role with their children in the future. Paul takes the spice, gains visions of the future and the past, immediately sees 3 possibilities. One, humanity is driven extinct in the future due to their complacency and lack of struggle; the fremen and sardaukar are the only two harsh, warrior cultures left. The rest of humanity is soft and will become softer. Two, Paul leads a violent revolution that toughens humanity, causes it to flee and explore, and extends its span before extinction. Three, Paul describes an unacceptably bloody, horrible future that he doesn't consider (this is the path his son takes in book 3/4). Paul is forced to become a prophet for a war he doesnt believe in because humanity will wither into nothing if he doesn't. The only thing in life he cares about is his family, but he hates his position. When you already know everything that will happen to you, you dread the bad events for years and count off the good ones knowing that each one is numbered before a meaningless death.

[Anonymous No.17848247]

>>17845801

The book is making a point about how leaders can become unable to control the movements they create. The Bene Gesserit seeded the Fremen with their religion, but having created that faith, it went out of their control. Paul invoked the faith of the Fremen to mobilize them for war, and found himself swept along to "the black banners and bloody spears of Jihad" that he could not avoid, despite his prescience.

[Anonymous No.17848252]

>>17848220
Book 2
Paul is a sad boy, he wastes his time doing some political stuff and being sad that he will die and leave his wife to likely be killed by his enemies. His sister is becoming insane due to being born with all of her ancestor's memories. (she gained these memories in her mother's womb, before she had developed her own personality or even awareness of herself, so she is essentially a husk of a person filled with other's memories) Paul walks into a trap, already knowing every detail of the scene as he watches a dirty bomb go off underneath him and his followers, many die and all lose their vision from radiation damage. Paul's wife dies, he saves his kids and walks off into the desert to die, as is custom for fremen who become blind because they are a burden to society. (Definitely a YA ending, you got me here OP)

[Anonymous No.17848268]

>>17843991
>why did a novel written before our descent into post-post-ironic politi-LARP hell modernity use words that I consider to have been devalued by the aforementioned circumstances
Putting the cart before the horse, zoomer anon.

[Anonymous No.17848280]

>>17847659

[Anonymous No.17848304]

>>17848280
he's a worm bro, don't play him like that

[Anonymous No.17848343]

>>17848252
Book 3
This book is entirely about the struggle of growing up with knowledge of the past, opposed to the first two books about struggling with knowledge of the future.
Paul's kids are teenagers, but they have grown up with all of their ancestor's memories. They struggle to create their own identity as it is difficult to discern their memories and thoughts from others. They are terrified of spice and avoid it because they saw what happened to Paul and understandably want to live their lives without prescience. Paul's sister goes completely insane and is taken over by one of her sinister ancestor's memories because she can't handle the stress. Lots of scheming goes on, it ends with paul's son being forced to consume spice, he gains paul's powers and takes path 3, although it isn't explained until book 4 what exactly is happening. Paul's son embraces both his prescience and knowledge of the past and fuses juvenile worms to his body. He gains some anime-tier powers and takes over paul's empire while whining about how hard he has it. (weak ending/book unless you read go on to read 4)

[Anonymous No.17848385]

>>17844062
t. reetawd

[Anonymous No.17848407]

>>17848385
>>17844062
>>17840483
"Think on it, Chani: the princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine-never to know the moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chai, we who carry the name of the concubine-history will call us wives."

What did he mean by this?

[Anonymous No.17848464]

>>17848343
Book 4
Holy shit, it's been 4 thousand years, Pauls son is more worm than human, he is a ruthless tyrant with some wild cult stuff, everyone hates him, he rambles about crazy shit, what is going on. Paul constantly spouts esoteric jargon about things that don't make sense unless you understand the plot well. He is tired of life, his only goal is to create a future for humanity that will result in their continued existence. He has ruled as a dictator and subjugated all of humanity for 4 thousand years just to deal with the truth that paul saw in book 1: humanity is weak and cares more about comfort than exploration and freedom. His goal is to prove to humanity that they are not happy in a safe, controlled universe. He privately praises rebels who rise up against him even though he has complete knowledge of them and their doings, and he always crushes them. He has purposefully made himself into as terrible a figure as possible to terrify humanity for the rest of time and make them resist complacency and oppression. He constantly rambles about how humanity has lost "something" since they became civilized. This something is the ability to follow instinct and behave erratically or unpredictably, and he has spent the last 4 thousand years breeding people to be wild again. He finally succeeds when he produces a girl who he can't see in his prescient visions, and he gives her the freedom and tools to kill him. He orchestrates his own death purposefully to make this girl the new savior of humanity, and all of her offspring are able to avoid prescient observation, saving them from another figure like Paul or himself.
Very little of this is explicitly stated in the book, it is mostly hinted at through dialogue. I love this book and suggest people read the series through to it.

Book 5 and 6:
Frank Herbert is horny because his wife has cancer so he writes about stupid sex cult stuff in the future, don't read them.

[Anonymous No.17849732]

>>17846933
>it's the opposite
Reread the last chapter of Dune. Paul is very careful to maintain the harshness of Dune so thst his Fremen retain their savage, hardy fighting spirits. The same qualities that made them superior to all other armies save the Sardaukar, who Paul dismantles by turning their world into paradise.
The Greening of Dune you're thinking off is just making the great plan of the Fremen official. They already had garden sections beforehand.

Maybe you should try paint by numbers.

[Anonymous No.17849774]

>>17839799
For the same reason people like "Blood Meridian" - the Biblical-sounding language makes it sound all profound and shieeet.

[Anonymous No.17850074]

>>17849732
again dumbfuck. Opposite happens. Fremen culture dissappears and all they become is museum fremens. keep coping.
>>17848247
That's my point
>>17847986
But Paul could do what he could because he was male. Otherwise he would be like a BG married to another noble house.

[Anonymous No.17850124]

Because it's based on an amazing history book on IRL Russian empire shennanegins pic related. Everything cool about dune, including a lot of the memorable quotes comes from Sabres of Paradise. The worm/spice thing is kind of cool, but it can't hold a card to the history book, which was in common circulation in Herbert's day.

[Anonymous No.17850151]

>>17850124
Based and chechen pilled

[Anonymous No.17850161]

>>17850151
*Dagestanpilled

[Anonymous No.17850371]

>>17850074
I've just explained how that is precisely not the case. Even used the happenings of the last chapter of the book for my argument.
You are not looking good.

[Anonymous No.17850382]

>>17850371
And I just told you what happened subhuman Your coping is hilarious. You still have not refuted the fact the fremen go extinct.

[Sage No.17850480]

>>17850382
Quote which passage of the book you believe means the Fremen will go extinct.

Or keep looking like a smelly weirdo.

[Anonymous No.17850511]

>>17850480
the term museum fremen proves you wrong tripfaggot.

[Sage No.17850523]

>>17850511
On what page of Dune can the phrase "museum fremen" be found?

>sage
>tripfaggot
:3

[Anonymous No.17850527]

>>17850523
look up GE dipshit

[Sage No.17850531]

>>17850527
What page says "museum fremen", you Fremulum?

[Anonymous No.17850534]

>>17850531
I don't have book with me at hand subhuman. God emperor talks about them you can even look them up.

[Anonymous No.17850649]

>>17848464
Are 5 and 6 really not worth reading? I heard some people one the site that shall not be named said that they actually enjoyed chapterhouse a great deal.

[Anonymous No.17850674]

I didn't read "Dune" but if it's shit, then what's a good sci-fi book?
I liked pic related very much.

[Sage No.17850700]

>>17850534
God Emperor is not Dune, the book, American.

[Anonymous No.17850801]

>>17850700
but it's still Dune retard. We were talking about author's intention. Which GE proves. Be better, less retarded.

[Anonymous No.17850806]

>>17850674
Dune is great. Only low IQs and trannies hate it.

[Anonymous No.17850978]

>>17839799
read Red Mars trilogy

[Anonymous No.17851649]

>>17850124
No worms? Sounds pretty gay desu

[Anonymous No.17851808]

What a schizo thread

[Anonymous No.17851834]

Very, very gay thread

[Anonymous No.17851847]

>>17850801
Hence my remark that Howards did the cycle of barbarians losing their culture once they succesfully conquer a decadent empire better. The Fremen aren't going extinct any more than any other conqueror in history.

[Anonymous No.17852084]

>>17851847
but that has nothing to do with the main theme of the books dumbfuck. Now you are moving goalpost because I btfo your subhuman posts.

[Anonymous No.17853016]

>>17839799
I really liked it. My only problem with it was how herbert was so in awe of the main character. Every time that he would do something or say something important, there would be a paragraph describing the emotions of his mother or the crowd. He was practically perfect. And that annoyed me alot. Also the Bene gesserit being a deus ex machina device for much of the book was really irritating.

[Anonymous No.17853160]

Dune is good because I like it and anything I like is good to me.
To argue about it's objective worth is a waste of time. Who even sets standards for this, the opinion of whom? And what gives them the authority to define quality?