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17835291 No.17835291 [Reply] [Original]

can anyone help me fully understand the implications of the "anima and animus" as jung wrote about?

does this explain social issues such as transgenderism?

can one become in touch with their inner feminine/inner masculine without letting it overcome their masculinity/femininity completely?

is it an innate part of all people, and do some have greater "levels" of feminity/masculinity than others in the unconscious?

what are some counterarguments against this hypothesis?

>> No.17835297

>>17835291
Yes to all the questions exepct this one:
>what are some counterarguments against this hypothesis?
They argue the theory is "unfalsifiable" but they are missing the point.

>> No.17835311

>>17835297
how does one access their unconscious feminine self besides being in an unconscious dream state?

>> No.17835320

>>17835291
programming socks

>> No.17835324

>>17835311
Look up "active imagination" (sorry I'm phoneposting so my answers are brief. Hopefully another Jungian anon will give more in depth answers.)

>> No.17835401
File: 502 KB, 1600x1067, Sadashiva-relief-cave-temple-India-Elephanta-Island.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17835401

Across from Bombay harbour lies the island of Elephanta with its famous cave, which was carved by Brahmans during the sixth century. There is something about this cave which suggests that it must have been fashioned by supernatural architects. It can be reached only by climbing up through thick shrubbery, and it has four entrances, of which the principal one leads directly to one of the world’s most sublime statues. This figure, the Trimurti, is a gigantic three-headed statue of Shiva carved out of the rear wall. Intended to represent the three aspects of Shiva—Shakti the wife, Kartikeya the son, and Shiva himself in his masculine aspect—it inevitably suggests the fundamental Trinity of Creator, Preserver and Destroyer. Here in one figure are Father, Son and Holy Ghost; Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis. Here is the Sun: at dawn, at noon and at dusk.

Each of the three heads looks in a different direction as if each were a god of one of the three dimensions. But what of the fourth dimension? Is it possible that in the wall of the cave there is a fourth head, about which nothing has ever been said? If so, this nameless head can be only implicit. To be explicit about it would be to miss its point entirely.

But let us look more closely at the three visible heads. Each looks in a particular direction but at no particular object, for the eyes of each are closed, and the god seems to be dreaming or meditating over something that is happening internally. They seem to be contemplating the ecstasy of Creation. These three forces—those of birth, preservation and destruction—are conscious; they seem to represent the intellect behind the shadowy substance of the world; for the world at best is only a reflection of the deep dreams of God.

In such a system, the fourth head must represent meditation. Like the invisible eye, it sees all the surface aspects of the world, but it also sees the grand design. With its eyes that see nothing the Trimurti sees everything; closed to the outside world, these eyes contemplate essences only. And the faces of these statues reflect a profound enjoyment of what is being contemplated.

Right beside the Trimurti is another figure of Shiva, this one a full figure. In the Hindu Trilogy Shiva is supposed to represent destruction; Brahma is the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver. Yet these classifications should not be too rigidly adhered to, for each god in his way represents all three. One is the All and the All is One. So Shiva also creates and preserves. As Nataraya, for example, he dances in the centre of the fire that destroys the worlds, but he does so only to make room for a new cycle of creation.

>> No.17835414
File: 763 KB, 1024x683, 3477680222_42983e8d35_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17835414

>>17835401
In this statue, Shiva appears as the complete god. No longer a divine form of particularities, he is a total god. Indeed he is both god and goddess, for this statue shows the god as being half male and half female. The female breast carved in the rock is a sign of the line between light and darkness in the god.

Thus as Shiva is androgynous, so god as a whole is hermaphroditic. A single sex would be impossible, for the closed eyes of the Trimurti are turned inward towards that palace where someone has found somebody else after an eternity of waiting. And the joy of this encounter is expressed in the faces of the Trimurti, with their quiet smiles of ineffable happiness. What they see and experience is the divine orgasm of a god that has at last become reunited with himself, and, finding himself again, he quietly creates. The son created is the world, and the world is the shadowy dream of the Hermaphrodite. The living son of this parent is the world of tri-dimensional reality as seen in the Trimurti. The fourth head is the son of death, representative of the fourth dimension and a harbinger of eternity.

But to reach this last stage, to climb up over the breast of the Hermaphrodite and to reach the Palace on top of the Tree, it is first necessary to descend to the roots where the Serpent sleeps in a coil.

>> No.17835434

>>17835414
>it is first necessary to descend to the roots where the Serpent sleeps in a coil.

i'm having trouble identifying the meaning here, does this refer to the fact that we cannot reach this stage unless we live and die on earth first?

>> No.17835470

what characterizes anima- and animus-inspired behavior/living?

>> No.17835507

>>17835470
this
>>17835320
and cat ears

>> No.17835541

>>17835291
Did jung believe full individuation was becoming a genderfluid tranny??

>> No.17836026

>>17835291
somebody, put a dildo in his hand

>> No.17836712

>>17835541
"tranny" implies one transitioned to another, new form, but jung is saying the genderless, "genderfluid", as you say, is the base state of nature. but yes

>> No.17836740

Trans(...) is easy enough to understand without recourse to Jung's psychobabble.
1) Sex Dystonic Orientation
2) Borderline Personality Disorder
3) ASD + Autogynephilia/Autoandrophilia

>> No.17836748

>>17835541
>>17836712
individuation doesn't mean becoming gender fluid lol. it means differentiating yourself from the collective unconscious.

>> No.17836812

>>17836748
and what jung argues is that achieving that state goes beyond the trivial human ideals of gender at all. i'm not talking blue-hair and tumblr type genderfludiity, what i'm talking about is that gender as a concept is an attribute that the collective unconscious has bestowed upon itself and that if you leave that you would transcend the need for concepts like that

>> No.17836822

>>17835291
>does this explain social issues such as transgenderism?
Yes he literally called it a psychic castration ghost

>> No.17836827

lets just say the contemporary state of things is refreudianizing jung because profitable

>> No.17836844

>>17835414
>>17835434
I have seen these posts before.

>> No.17836892

>>17835291
>can one become in touch with their inner feminine/inner masculine without letting it overcome their masculinity/femininity completely?

Absolutely in fact Jung encouraged people to leave their comfort zone and explore the opposite of their 'Personality"

>> No.17836915

>>17836892
Have you ever heard Rush's Animate? It's good Jungian prog-rock.

>> No.17836982

>>17836915
No. Rush kind of sucks.

>> No.17837123

>>17835541
The widespread belief that "getting in touch with your masculinity/femininity" means being a genderfluid tranny is precisely the reason why there's all this genderfluid tranny business to begin with. If everyone had a healthy relationship to their inner feminine/masculine, then there would simply be no need for superficial theatrics and genital mutilation. It is in everyone's best interest to become spiritually androgynous by cultivating the virtues of the opposite sex on top of the virtues of their own

>> No.17837251

>>17837123
I think this is a generalization. Third gender and transgenders have been around long before Jung. In Native American tribes and other societies people dressed and presented at women. Nothing forced or explore. They just naturally manifested this way and their society had no qualms with this.

>> No.17837320

>>17837251
same in many african, northwest asian/southwest european, and south asian cultures as well. abrahamic religions are to blame for our modern, bastardized view of gender.

>> No.17837387

>>17837320
I agree. Jung is great and has some amazing ideas. But he failed to break out or recognize his eurocentric biases.

>>17837123
What you call superficial theatrics and genital mutilation is nothing new to me. In my mind it is the same thing that other cultures have done for thousands of years. Now we have the methods to bring people closer to their concept of gender.

>> No.17837464

>>17837123
but who cares? like if someone has the money and willpower to do it, why do you care? are you projecting? what's the alternative? every academic study I've seen shows that transgender people have far lower rates of suicide, mental illness, and drug use when given access to the ability to medically transition, so why does it concern you? i'm not transgender, and I cannot understand the mindset fully either, but it doesn't concern me and I know they're human beings, so why not treat them as such?

>> No.17837508

>>17837464
Yeah I agree with you. The ultimate question for people who are against transgender people is:
Why do you care what a person has between their legs?

>> No.17837521

>>17835291
From my understanding transgenderism happens when you lose the balance with anima/animus and you become possessed by it in a way that you want to resemble it than be yourself.

>> No.17837556

>>17837521
but is the anima not also yourself?

>> No.17837613

>>17837556
anima has its roots in collective unconsciousness. it appears to you in personalized image.

>> No.17837667

>>17837613
and therefore, it is representative of your true self, is it not? or by "personalized" image, do you mean it is what you WISH you were? because jung would likely disagree with that I feel, he seemed to describe it as what one's "pure" or "true" self is

>> No.17837784

>>17837667
the self is completely different thing. you have first deal with the shadow, anima/animus and the sage for reaching the self.
>by "personalized" image, do you mean it is what you WISH you were?
only when you become possessed by anima, you want to wish to become it. anima is not the complete opposite like the shadow is but rather a separate mental entity which is capable of changing according to your personality - it can guide you and provide the better understanding of yourself but it can become the biggest nightmare and make you more "feminine" (not the same as possessed) in being more influenced by moods, irritable and etc. Even Jung recommends treating her like a real person and not like a fruit of your imagination.

>> No.17837818

>>17835291
Normal psychologically healthy individuals express both the animal and the animus. The women who browse here are expressing animus. The roasties who can’t help but bring up their sex are possessed by their anima.
Transgenderism is the full rejection of either the animus or anima. Have you ever met someone with disphoria? Take transwomen for example. The disorder manifests if they get squicky feelings any time they think someone percieves them to embody the animus. When his father buys them a new pair of tennis shoes. When his mother takes him in for a haircut. When his best friend makes a joke about the penises they have in common. When his teacher assumes he can help her open a jar. The transwoman despises their animus and idealises their anima. There is no overlap for the tranny. Even when they do stuff that’s stereotypically masculine, they make a show about how it’s actually feminine when they do it. They build walls between the animus and anima where is should be allowed to mix freely. That’s why it’s a disorder.
Then trannies try to act like they’re the only ones who understand Jung because their body/brain combo makes them so so special. Meanwhile, they’re the most unwualified people on the planet to discuss manhood or womanhood. It’s all so tiresome.

Similarly:
Genderfluid/nonbinary queers fail to reconcile that the animus and anima coexist in all aspects of nature. “I feel like fishing today. Guess I’m male now! But later, i think i’ll fix a sandwich. Gee, my identity sure is fluid!”

>> No.17837859

>>17837251
>Nothing forced or explore. They just naturally manifested this way and their society had no qualms with this.
That literally isn’t true.

>> No.17837867

>>17836812
Gender abolition is cancer. Go outside.

>> No.17837882

>>17837867
can you give me an empirical argument as to why our modern concept of gender is necessary for society to further?

>> No.17837966

>>17837251>>17837387>>17837464


Yes, true, but the genderbending phenomenon the perspective of the 'global culture' in which all of us on the internet now inhabit is not the same thing as the cases of which you speak. Historically, in whatever society you come from, your gender - man, female or otherwise - was attached to a set of responsibilities, which in the case of the latter were usually spiritual. The clothes you wore and the way you presented were directly related to what you were doing. Broadly speaking, gender is no longer tied to activity like that in most places, and this is part of the same trend of community disintegration, human superfluity, and labor alienation affecting pretty much anyone. There are fewer and fewer communities for people to naturally fall into and belong in, and thus more 'manufactured' communities springing up around superficial theatrics and meaningless conformity (political alignment being an especially notable example)

I'm not categorically against genderbending, and I genuinely believe there are people out there who 'were born in the wrong body', but I think this particular zeitgeist of gender expression is exacerbating the problem to which it exists in response. Sense of self should be drawn from within, and I think for that reason telling vulnerable people struggling with identity that their first line of defense is to radically transform their appearance and manner is just perpetuating the same toxic line of thought which led to their discomfort in the first place. I understand that transition does genuinely help people struggling with dysphoria, but ideally, we would live in a society in which people could find a sense of belonging without radically changing their presentation for no other reason but to appear a certain way before others - I just don't see that kind of messaging from anywhere on the political spectrum.

>> No.17838002

>>17837464
I think generally the worry is that if you move away from man-woman and marriage you will end up with Sodom

>> No.17838021

>>17838002
>Sodom
isnt it retconned?

>> No.17838028

>>17837966
this guy gets it
it's a bodily solution to a spiritual problem. the idea that a spiritual ailment can be solved by crude remodelling of the flesh is... well, death. it is the opposite of life.

>> No.17838042

>>17837966
though i disagree with your worldview, I actually do agree. society has been led astray; not by zionists, globalists, jews, or the left-wing - but neoliberalism. the issue is, once the industrial revolution began, the world as humanity knew it once was gone for good. now we live in the time where things such as "community", "civilization", and even "religiosity" are things that individuals can use, monetize, and exploit for their own furtherment. it has led to the creation, or, as I might say, destruction of true human society and has created a faux society built upon lies and greed.
>>17838002
well i am not a christian, so I do not really care for a world of "sexual immorality". from an Abrahamic point of view, humans have and always will be sinful, so if we're going to apply the "sodom" argument, then we've already been living in sodom since the dawn of civilization.

>> No.17838069

>>17838042
>neoliberalism
whats the solution?

>> No.17838075

>>17838069
a worldwide worker's revolution

>> No.17838096

>>17838069
doing unto others as you would have them do to you

>> No.17838097

>>17838075
>worker revolution
didnt 60's social revolutions make clear that no actual revolution is going to happen ever again?

>> No.17838109

>>17838097
maybe, i accept the fact that I might be naïve but that's truly the only solution to overthrowing the powers that be. i hate when people truly think democratic reform is possible

>> No.17838113

>>17838096
this too, distributism is unironically a good idea (coming from a nonchristian)

>> No.17838122

>>17838113
>distributism is unironically a good idea

Yikerinos.

>> No.17838127

>>17838109
i also think the same but i wouldnt know what could change it. does the revolution for revolution's sake ever works out?

>> No.17838227

>>17838127
it can, but oftentimes leads to warring factions like you see a lot in south American countries where there is no true unity among the proletariat

>> No.17838235
File: 31 KB, 600x600, 53o0nfu8ve561.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17838235

>Yikerinos

>> No.17838271

>>17838127
Even the most successful revolutions eventually go the same way - revolutionary elan is replaced by complacency, apathy, and indifference as the mundane requirements of day to day living return to the fore of everyone's life, and the very same power structures which appeared to have been overthrown take hold with a shiny coat of paint and some fancy new slogans

>> No.17838280

>>17838271
this is why marx is correct in stating, there needs to be a revolution in a country which is already highly developed and influential, that way, others will fall with it and workers can literally seize the means of production. the issue is, the more worker's revolutions take place in underdeveloped countries, the less likely people are going to be willing to take that step. workers cannot "seize the means of production" if there are literally no means of production to be seized in the first place.

>> No.17838501

>>17838280
but could it really happen in current western world?

>> No.17838575

>>17838280
Outdated model since developed countries are mostly service, and outsource a lot of their production to developing nations - the financial sector is what gives them an edge over developing nations with equally large or larger populations. I have some sympathy for communism - Cuba has the best healthcare in the world - but after the workers seize the means, in any case, they hand them over to the managers and suddenly everything is back to the way it was.

>> No.17839786

>>17835291
Google it you retard.

>> No.17839967

>>17837882
No, because the notion is divorced from reality. Gender, especially the fractured form we have now, is too useful as a power structure. Members of every single declared gender use it implicitly and explicitly to use power.
You can talk about eliminating power structures, but then we're even farther into fictionland.
The closest we could possibly get to it is putting a global moratorium on banning the discussion of gender and gender identities. Ain't gonna happen.
Useless, even as a thought experiment. Only a true elitist would think the should(or ought to) prescribe something so ridiculous on the entire human race.

>> No.17840005

>>17839967
i dont want to do away with the concept of gender, I want to break the norms we currently have. there will always be men and women, so I don't really care if there are others who do not identify as either. i don't want to ban gender ( as much as I think a genderless world would be an innate good ) I think the closest reality we could get is a world where gender is not important, and one can identify however they feel suits them. i don't really care how someone identifies, just be a honest, empathetic person and I'll like you

>> No.17840040

>>17835541
He said "it is better for a man to live as a man and a woman as a woman."

>> No.17840075

>>17838075
>a worldwide worker's revolution
Beware this is what every person who used the fake-term "neoliberal" actually means. "Neoliberal" is an attempt to say the current problems are because of too much free market, and actually it is capitalism responsible for BLM and trannies (although they also say those are good things and never actually call them out). It is nothing more than cheap linguistic trickery to sneak in Marxism.

>> No.17840105

>>17840005
What norms, anon? They're all subverted constantly. Attention is what gives importance to social power structures like gender. Inventing new names for small variations in gender expression ossifies the structure itself. I think a lot of young people feel the same way you do, and that the new stratifications we've seen in the last 10 years are a step toward a gender-blind utopia, but it's just another temporary social shift to be studied by generations far removed. These ideas aren't revolutionary, your grandparents just lived through the 60's. Have you read LeGuin?

>i don't really care how someone identifies, just be a honest, empathetic person and I'll like you
I feel exactly the same.

>> No.17840118

>>17840105
>a step toward a gender-blind utopia

Utopias never come to fruition. People always find something new to lament.

>> No.17840747

>>17837818
Priori, we have a huge conflict regarding approaches

The psychodynamic approach of course that seeks to retake and limit the classics of psychoanalysis to practical intervention, but from my perspective, and not offensively, it is too oxidized.

Here I would like to talk about Jean Piaget and his theory of cognitive development.

This is of course divided into stages, and the one that interests us is the fourth stage, the stage of formal operations. We are not talking about a disorder with respect to transsexuality, we are simply talking about a brain structure that through the natural irrigation of hormonal-type organic components, coerces the individual to the perception of having a body that does not correspond to their own cognition, beyond archetypes of masculinity and femininity, this embraces a whole sociocultural load of stereotypes of the normalizing type, but most importantly, factors such as a rejection of one's own image, where even the sexual organ itself looks like something not corresponding to the person (understanding the person as what is presented to the confrontation of problems, the own construction of a total mask).

Gender dysphoria does not modify cognitive activity per se in any way, which it does and is usually associated with disorders, it is for example the anxiety that oppression in institutions such as the family generates on the individual, stress, stereotypical aberration, let's go , a cocktail.

>> No.17840756

>>17837818
Also I forget:

>>17840747
Cont.

Why is Piaget important in this matter, since he determines how cognitive development depends on multiple functional structures, not only at the structural level of the brain, but the interaction of the person with their environment, learning, foundation and creation of new cognitive schemes that will serve to, shortly, face any possible future. A transsexual person does not have a condition beyond their own brain function not stereotypically appropriate to their physical anatomy.

>> No.17840835
File: 37 KB, 367x490, Based.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17840835

>>17840747
>>17840756

>> No.17841072 [DELETED] 

>>17837464
>b-but why do you care? we just want to give experimental drugs to kids, why do you care?
fuck you people are simple

>> No.17841122

>>17837251
>Nothing forced or explore. They just naturally manifested this way a
Nah, these things are promoted and have exploded recently, not from tolerance, but from encouragement
>>17837464
yes give kids experimental drugs great idea

>> No.17841263

>>17840747
>>17840756
I've actually read some Piaget, but I had to read your posts several times to figure out what you were getting at. You used several digressionary phrases, especially "of course" which come off as condescending. The one thing you absolutely mustn't be in the context of persuasion is condescending. You also use somewhat poetic/non-standard "wordy" diction. See:
>it is too oxidized
>natural irrigation
>hormonal-type organic components
>stereotypes of the normalizing type
>coerces
Not only are these uneconomic choices imprecise, they obfuscate the relationship between your ideas.
Combined with the prolonged garden path sentences in which the subject and verb struggle to meet within a labyrinthine tangle of ten dollar words where nickels would do, this gives your writing the cadence of an Eastern European or some such speaking in his non-native language for the express purpose of looking down his nose at a crowd of smelly Americans. Perhaps this was your intention. I found it gauche.

I wrote all that because you clearly had persuasion in mind when you included your warrant for why Piaget is relevant: >>17840756
Perhaps these notes will be helpful to you or onlookers.

>> No.17841265

>>17840747
>>17840756
On to your points. I got out my decoder ring and translated them below. Charitably, I think. Feel free to correct me if you feel misrepresented. I might respond.
1. The anima/animus cannot be a driving force behind trans because it would have to take place in the stage of development Piaget identified as “the stage of formal operations,” which can occur anytime after early adolescence.
What I’m guessing you wanted to include (see how charitable I am?) is the fact that transchildren can be as young as three years old, far younger than Piaget observed abstract thought. I want to point out to you that the majority of transpeople identify themselves either at the start of puberty or into adulthood. Statistically, this actually comports with Piaget’s observations. The three year olds are the exception that proves the rule(and, imo, are likely victims of abuse).
2. There are structural differences in the brain, so it can’t be anima/animus possession.
Dude, we’re talking about philosophy ghosts. Of course the concepts are going to be more abstract than medical fact. That said, I’m familiar with the studies that people use to draw that conclusion. They have nothing to do with Piaget, and they don’t say what most people think they say. My favorite thing about people who get hung up on this is that they simultaneously underestimate and overestimate the influence of hormones on the brain. But this is too far from OP’s topic. I provided a simple example of how Jung’s concept can be applied to transexuals. Can you?
3. Gender Dysphoria doesn't cause any negative cognitive effects; it's all the environmental crap they have to deal with besides that stresses them out.
It seems to me that you have responded to my a priori with an a priori of your own. Friends? I also think that your conclusion is even less charitable to transpeople than my own. If their phychological symptoms (such as their famously high rate of suicide and self-mutilation) are caused by the same stressors cisgender people experience, what about being trans makes them so inept about handling normal life compared to a cis?

Also,
>oppression in institutions such as the family
kek. Edgy.

>>17840835
You cuties go to the same school together?

>> No.17841316

>>17835541
No no no, masculine and feminine energies are like oil and water. The anima/animus division reflects the same logic as the way that intro/extro-verts ought to seek to integrate the other (usually ignored) elements into themselves in order to become more well-rounded.

>> No.17841452

>>17837464
I see you trying to be empathetic, but it’s honestly pretty shallow.
>they’re human beings, so why not treat them as such?
We do not help the anorexic starve themselves.
We do not contort society to match the delusions of the schizophrenic.
We do not assist with the mutilation of the otherwise dysphoric.

Once upon a time, if someone suffered because of emotional outbursts, they were free to seek out a lobotomy. If they had the means to do it, why not encourage it? After all, they didn’t suffer from the outbursts anymore afterward. And they didn’t kill themselves! The reason this practice didn’t stand the test of time is that we’ve found better more effective answers to the problems we tried to fix with lobotomies.
Now, no one is looking for the better option. No one can.
The concept of animus and anima may hold the key to a superior treatment for transgender people. Good luck getting anyone who matters to do the research.

>> No.17841648

>>17837966
based based based

>> No.17841863

>>17835291
>can anyone help me fully understand the implications of the "anima and animus" as jung wrote about?
In order to grow as a person, become more balanced and self-sufficient, it is necessary to integrate the qualities that one lacks. Failing this, one could become 'possessed' by either anima or animus.

>does this explain social issues such as transgenderism?
The man who doesn't 'feel' like a man takes the easy way out by choosing to identify completely with the anima, rather than strive to develop his animus. This is particularly obvious with the case of 'trans-lesbians'. So you want to fuck girls, but rather than developing an animus that girls lust after, you instead fully embrace your anima, wear lip gloss and pink clothes in hopes of finding a homosexual girl to accept you 'as you are'. It's a way of avoiding facing your shadow.

It stifles personal growth and leads you into the masquerade of over-identification with the persona.

>can one become in touch with their inner feminine/inner masculine without letting it overcome their masculinity/femininity completely?
Surely you can observe people in your life that embody both masculine and feminine traits, without succumbing entirely to either.

>is it an innate part of all people, and do some have greater "levels" of feminity/masculinity than others in the unconscious?
We all have in our unconscious some idea of the masculine/feminine. Their 'levels' are partly genetic.

>> No.17842277

>>17841122
what expiermental drugs? hormone blockers? big fucking whoop, if someone's 18 years old (the required age to begin HRT) then it's their decision to start it, not mine

>> No.17842523

>>17842277
I don't think this mindset is in any way productive. How long are you going to say "let them be" before their philosophy propagates? Obviously people who opposes transgenderism has a different definition of gender, and want to avoid the proliferation of such due to the obvious effect that their mindset can lead to, which are the disintegration of family structure and gender roles which leads to "sexual egalitarianism" that is obviously so oppressive to women because it necessitates them working while being weaker thus more prone to emotional stress as well as sexual abuse.
That is why you can't equate men with women and blurring the lines will not help this issue.
You are operating under layers upon layers of tenuous philosophical presuppositions that the current world has made you blind to them.

>> No.17842541

>>17841265
Not him. But gender dysphoria does play an extremely important role in the problems of trans people.

It's existence is recognized in the DSM-V, the manual that every psychologist should use on mental disorders and diseases, a manual prepared by the American Psychological Association.

>> No.17842547

>>17842523
is it your fear that if we accept transgender people, everyone will eventually become transgender? this is such a logical fallacy it hurts my brain. where are your statistics? transgender people, even in eu countries where they are and have been more accepted for a longer period of time, make up a tiny number of the world population, even in their respective countries. not everyone has dysphoria, if you want to see pre-transition dysphoria in denial, go to /fit/.

>That is why you can't equate men with women and blurring the lines will not help this issue.
this is /lit/, have you done any reading from the past two centuries on gender?

>> No.17842572

>>17837387
>But he failed to break out or recognize his eurocentric biases
Rubbish. He conducted extensive studies in China and Africa.

>> No.17842588

>>17842523
the problem is alienation and hyper individualism that capitalism creates fucking idiot women are as capable as men of doing anything.

>>17835291
possession by the anima is psychological and allegorical it doesnt literally mean someone will become more feminine. it would mean a person s actions are leading them away from individuation and positive transformation as a person. a person who is 3rd gender is still able to become individuated. not to mention jungs theory is anecdotal and much of his findings are not replaceable clinical trials

>> No.17842667

>>17842541
>the manual that every psychologist should use on mental disorders and diseases, a manual prepared by the American Psychological Association.
I mean I don't have anything concrete to say, I'm just saying

>> No.17842705

>>17842547
>everyone will eventually become transgender?
When did I say this? I said it will promote sexual egalitarianism which is the view that both genders are totally equal. This is based on the current world, not a wild speculation. This is what lead to female workers thus isolated child with working parents which is already taken its toll on the current generation. I am not saying that the result of "transgenders" is the bad part, I am saying that in order to accept them, certain pressuppositions needs to be accepted that can lead to even more stress to the male-female social dynamic.
Let me put this in a simpler way.
To accept transgenderism you will need to claim that maleness and femaleness are arbitrary, since research has not shown that there's any such thing as the trans "DNA". Thus, you would need to argue that these concept and roles are societally imposed. So in this equation we have,
Femaleness = Maleness

And thus,
More burden and societal pressures on females to go into fields they are not adapted for = Less burden on men whilst still being stronger leading to the exploitation of females and underperforming males.

Google any statistics regarding female happiness and you can see our current trajectory will not do them any good.

If you are arguing that the term male and female itself is problematic, using the existence of intersex people to give license to non intersex people to melt their genders away like it is not a reality effecting every single person on earth, then I am not interested in having this discussion.

>> No.17842706

>>17835541
sex and genderare inseparable albeit dont overlap 100%. Trannies are anima or animus possessed people. that is all.

>> No.17842719

>>17842706
>sex and genderare inseparable albeit dont overlap 100%
this guy gets it

>> No.17842762

>>17842705
people born with male biology and people born with female biology are inherently different, yes. but it shouldn't be the duty of any specific gender to be the worker or homemaker. both parents, no matter who they are, should be nurturing the child. we look at the same issue but come to different conclusions essentially, you address the issue by saying we should recognize the differences in biology and go back to women being homemakers and men being workers, while I say the issue is neoliberalism which robs parents of time able to care for their child or stressing them to the point that their marriages fail, or force both parents to work because they cannot afford to have one not working, etc. i understand the issue you're addressing, but I believe we need to look at it in a broader scope and critique the whole system, rather than the people who are trying to survive under it. either way, both of our conclusions are near impossible now, so it really is just a pipe dream to say we'll ever establish the family to be what it once was.

>> No.17842791

>>17842762
this guy also gets it

>> No.17842871

Crossboarder here, can't believe you guys had a discussion about transgenderism without anyone saying ywnbaw, /lit/ really is the smartest board I need to read more books

>> No.17842881
File: 318 KB, 400x398, say_what.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17842881

>>17842871
>Crossboarder
Is this the latest synonym of "snowflake?"
Don't answer, nobody cares.

>> No.17842904

>>17842762
>but it shouldn't be the duty of any specific gender to be the worker or homemaker.
I agree with you, but I do think in a world without neoliberalism and capitalism, the male-female dynamic will shift to a much much healthier nuclear state.

>> No.17842914

>>17842762

>difference in form shouldn't cause difference in function

Yes, I should be free to choose to speak out of my ass and shit out of my mouth.

>> No.17842937

>>17842904
>male-female dynamic will shift to a much much healthier nuclear state.
I agree! those who prefer that lifestyle would actually be able to do so; it wouldn't be dependent on getting food on the table anymore. I don't think it's an inherent bad or good, I just think that that lifestyle is no longer viable for the vast majority of the population. i mean, for instance in America, the majority of the population is still some denomination of Christian. This alone is telling that we have a substantial population of people who may at least to some degree prefer that dynamic, and yet we see it less and less.

>>17842914
i mean sure, that's not my concern

>> No.17842966

>>17842762
>both parents, no matter who they are, should be nurturing the child
Bullshit. Women are considerably better suited to this task than men. And they've got the tits to prove it.

>> No.17843041

>>17842966
your dad never played catch with you? never took you hiking, taught you life skills, helped with your homework, etc?

>> No.17843043

>>17842871
You will never be a woman

>> No.17843052

>>17842966
The point is a child needs both male and female model as to not develop into a coddled adult baby like what is happening today. An active and enganged male role model is a necessity as well as active help for the female with regards to chores while the female is tending to the child.

>> No.17843065

actually, good question related to what's being discussed right now. does one's anima/animus reflect their parents as well, since we are essentially the hybrid of two people?

>> No.17843084
File: 415 KB, 480x238, (you).gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17843084

>>17842871
You will never be a real reader. You have no vocabulary, you have no fantasy, you have no perseverance. You are a crossboarding faggot twisted by /b/ and /v/ into a crude mockery of literary perfection.

All the “reading” you do is self-help and mid-witted. Behind your back actual reading enthusiasts mock you. Your greek forefathers are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “book circle” laugh at the your pathetic attempts of participating in the discussion.

Authors are utterly repulsed by you. Tens of years of philosophical /lit/ discussions have allowed us to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even anons who “pass” as litizens structure their posts in an uncanny and unnatural way. Your phrasing is a dead giveaway. Even if you manage to get a (You) in reply, it was meant as a reply to another post.

You will never be happy. You struggle through a page every single afternoon and tell yourself that, this time, you're actually going to finish the book, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a spook.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll go back to /pol/, post a meme, enter a BBC thread, and plunge into the cold abyss. The books will gather dust and decay, and all that will remain of your literary legacy is the knowledge that you couldn't even get through the greeks - that you are unmistakably not an intellectual.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no "I need to read more books".

>> No.17843092

>>17843065
Yes.

>> No.17843136

>>17835401
>>17835414
Awaken my masters

>> No.17843158

>>17835291
>can one become in touch with their inner feminine/inner masculine without letting it overcome their masculinity/femininity completely?
Yes? Just dont identify with it. I suppose, as a man, this means that I am not anima possessed if I do not identify with my emotions but allow myself to have them.

>> No.17843281

>>17837464
yes, validate the mentally ill, tell them they are completely ok in the name of humanity (yours is false btw - its just virtue signalling)

>> No.17843291

>>17843281
virtue signaling would be me saying trans people are beautiful and trying to seem as inclusive and loving as possible, which I am not. i'm simply saying I do not give a fuck if someone is trans but I respect their identity if they are. i personally think doing away with "traditional" ideas of gender wold be an innate good thing.

>> No.17843303

>>17837521
no, if youre a man possessed by anima, it means you watch a lot of porn, fall in love with a woman without knowing her, you are passive aggressive, obsessed with your looks etc.

>> No.17843339

>>17837251
i hardly believe there is proper evidence to back that up.

>> No.17843359

>>17841452
this

>> No.17843520

>>17843084
>/b/ and /v/
Nevermind you guys are stupid I take it all back

>> No.17843555

>>17843339
there is

https://books.google.com/books?id=McoYDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=arani+agni+mother&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCrt_F9YHiAhXTfX0KHRXaAVUQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=arani%20agni%20mother&f=false

>> No.17843577

>>17841452
>anorexia
false equivalency, untreated anorexia leads to death, transgenderism does not
>schizophrenia
untreated schizophrenic people are both threats to their own lives and other's lives. transgender people are not.
>dysphoria
dysphoric people can live full lives with therapy. transgender people overall are massive supporters of access to therapy. other than that, dysphoria is not something that can be fully "treated", similar to depression.

you're making false equivalencies that are consistently abused by fascists yet you do not realize the implications of each equivalency you make.

>> No.17843902

>>17841263
>>17841265
I loved the text, it is screwed up as you even denoted the following.

Jung is rusty because he is genuinely rusty, it serves to read Hermann Hesse, but no more, the point with Jung is that the vato gives little more than approximations with the archetypal theme, the simplest example is the puer eternus, that child man to which his only solution was to propose the job. It is a pity that the cognitive-behavioral approach extended the thesis to determine that the environment and the illusion of idealistic self-determination are not enough to modify the conditioning that has settled for years, this is important, because Jung has softness everywhere, literally everywhere.

The organic components of a hormonal type are the most appropriate phrase to determine the hormones to dry, since there are unclear contrast, an example is vasopressin, which is very often treated only as an organic component, despite also being a damn hormone, then , an organic component of hormonal type frames you up to the fucking norepinephrine.

What is a stereotype of a normalizing type, the net that goes without saying, but we go with Foucault, the talk of normalizing power with a property of social interaction, a power that is not directly exercised by anyone, but is nonetheless there, the social norm, the very dynamics under which the interaction has been delimited outside of a social contract, if you do not find inviolable behavioral stereotypes, you are on the other hand bro, since stereotypes in this case determine and condition the concept of what correct and not correct.

Coerce. The organic components of a hormonal type coerce you, there is no more, this precious illusion of free will offers the possibility of delving into human action as something always free of dynamism, and no, if you masturbate too much, and release jets of cortisol in the blood , and then adrenol, epinephrine and norepinephrine, you are going to be ready to fight a tiger, but you really won't, so you will be super stressed, depressed because of the deficiencies in your reward system in dopamine and endorphins, come on, you will be coerced not to lead a dynamic of life where your free decision to act is the maximum, or yes? (Tell me pls).

Oh, and by the way, the family is an institution, and the influence on individuals is nuclear.

Although the individual is that which cannot be divided, at a conceptual level it seems rational, but in psychological practice it is not like that, since the person is made up of dividing fragments that adapt as a scheme depending on the situation. It happens that in the family this does not work like that, the level of defenselessness is terrible, and the idealistic pressure that this institution exerts on the person, you can imagine, right?

>> No.17844060

>>17842277
>what expiermental drugs? hormone blockers?
And hormonal supplements, all of which are used for off-label purposes in the treatment of trans people. Because it’s impossible to conduct a proper experiment on transpeople. Because every alternative is decried as “conversion therapy.” I don’t know where you live, but in these parts, there is no lower age limit to when a tween or teen can start a course of hormone blockers. You do know there’s a whole world outside, right?
>>17843577
Now who’s making the false equivalences?
>untreated anorexia leads to death
So does untreated trans. The treatments they recieve are literally suicide prevention strategies.
>untreated schizophrenic people are a danger to themselves and others
So is an untreated transperson. I’ll give you just one example: Ted K, aka the Unabomber. He’s not alone.
>dysphoric people just need therapy
True. It takes years, it takes consistency, and their progress doesn’t involve affirmative surgeries and hormone supplements on the public dime. Would any trans person you know advocate for that?
>transpeople overall are advocates of access to therapy
This is an anecdotal generalization, so it almost isn’t worth responding to, but advocating for access to therapy is not the same as accepting/using therapy to treat your disorder. In fact, where I live, a trans person is required to make only a few meetings with a therapist before they can start a course of HRT with an endocrinologist. I won’t make a sweeping claim about this like you have, but the trans people in my life(friends and loved ones, whom I treat like humans) researched and practiced what to say during those interviews in order to get their HRT. They certainly don’t think therapy is a viable treatment option for them, and the current structures in my hometown allow them to mostly bypass it altogether. This is not a path available to those with other dysphorias. Suffice to say that you’ve made another false equivalence.
You’ve implied that I don’t want to treat trans people as humans, but you talk about them like they’re all some harmless infantilized creature. Baby animals are harmless. No human is harmless. They may be neutered, but transpeople are not harmless.

>you’re making arguments a fascist would make!
Please don’t parodize yourself.

>> No.17844331

>>17844060
>there is no lower age limit to when a tween or teen can start a course of hormone blockers
you literally cannot by united states law, unless your parents consent to it, of which I doubt that number is above 500 <18s.

i also will not reply to your other statements. anectdotal evidence like the Unabomber? you understand that he is not representative of all trans people. it's like the famous example of this logical fallacy, crime and icecream sales both increase at the same time every year, therefore, does higher icecream sales mean high crime? no, it's because it's summer. Pointing out that trans people have committed crimes does not mean the majority do. this is the problem I have with arguments such as yours. you can find examples all day if you want, but it's the same logical fallacy as the "rape increased around the same time migrants did in Scandinavia" despite the fact that the majority of those higher rapes were committed by other Europeans. it is a willfully ignorant argument at best and malintented at worst.

>> No.17844511

>>17844331
>pulls a number out of his butt
>calls me willfully ignorant
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/age-trans-individuals-us/
For your own edification, here’s a UCLA study which estimates that there are at least 150,000 children between the ages of 13 and 17 who identify themselves as transgender.

>le correlation n’est pas la causation
You want a study that isolates for transgender people who forgo treatment, but transgender people are identified by the fact that they seek treatment/transition. It’s an impossible task. Meanwhile, we already have records of multiple serial killers who cite a struggle with “gender confusion,” as it used to be called, as a significant part of their motivations. Yes, most transpeople direct their frustrations inward. Guess what? It’s the same for schizophrenics. Again, your false equivalence reveals how shallow your tolerance is.
Kudus to you for identifying that this point is weaker than every one of my other points, though.
If you want to stay willfully ignorant, that’s what bunkerchan is for.

>> No.17844522

>>17844511
150,000 Children in the US alone*

>> No.17844534

>>17844511
>at least 150,000 children between the ages of 13 and 17 who identify themselves as transgender.
the statement was about parents consenting to letting their children start HRT, not if the children identify as transgender

there are also hundreds of serial killers who identify as white nationalists. does that mean all right-winger whites are inherently evil? i'd say not, even if ideologically disagree with them on almost every point.

>> No.17844606

>>17844534
I hope you get to go back to school soon, anon. I know these times have been lonely.

>> No.17844627

>>17844534
>there are also hundreds of serial killers who identify as white nationalists.
what

>> No.17844662

>>17844627
ok, let me bring you some big names, Dylann Roof, Brenton Tarrant, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, etc. the list can go on.

>> No.17844683

>>17844662
That is 4 people and only the first 2 could be called WN. They are also technically not serial killers, they are mass murderers

>> No.17844714

>>17835291
Retarded.

You don't have an essence.You don't have a feminine or masculine side.

You're a collection of actions, of experiences, a body molded by social forces and the physical world.

Kill yourself(ego) and just live.

>> No.17844898

>>17843902
Bump this comment (I want a response)

>> No.17845275

>>17837818
Based post. Trannies grasping for the essentialism inherent in Jung is horribly
ironic. They should stick to the little territory Butler carved for them in performativity theory instead of uselessly soiling /ourguy/

>> No.17845317

>>17838042
>not by zionists, globalists, jews, or the left-wing - but neoliberalism
the vast majority of the people that fall into these categories are neoliberal, even when they aren’t aware or trying to be so. communism is dead, and anyone purporting to carry its spirit is shuffling its dead corpse on parade for the benefit of corporations and their government hounds. neoliberalism, and all the ideologies it has subsumed, are luciferian in nature and lead to transhumanism, something that is so blatantly apparent in transgenderism, which is but one of its facets. you cannot be authentically against neoliberalism without a right wing stance, rooted in your belief in a higher power and order.

>> No.17845363
File: 1.74 MB, 2883x1890, 1605196203104.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17845363

Jung takes the concept of Aristotelian balance as it was introduced in virtue theory and plays with it in new ways. He matches it with the necessity of opposites, and thus created a new theorem: If you are masculine, there is necessarily a feminine portion of you- and if there is a feminine portion of you it must be contended with. He suggests bringing them into a balance by delving into the "Shadow" (slay the bloody dragon)where the uncontended anima/animus reside. If you are able to bring things into proper order (Adequate order AND adequate chaos. Too much of one will lead you to being possesed by animus/anima....being transgendered) you are closer to your fully actuated self. Jungs Self resembles the "ideal" you.

Id like another Jungian to vouch for what im saying, or disagree with the nitty gritty details. The devil is always in the details

>> No.17845373

>>17844714
You haven't understood Jung's analysis if you're making this critique.

>> No.17845387

>>17840747
>we are simply talking about a brain structure that through the natural irrigation of hormonal-type organic components, coerces the individual to the perception of having a body that does not correspond to their own cognition
the scientific community has literally zero proof of this. you cannot demonstrate any evidence let alone a concrete hypothesis. simply put, we know nearly nothing about the brain. just look at all the medicine we produce - all we know is that is has an intended effect but we don’t know the cause, almost ever. we shotgun blast the brain with chemicals and pray that it works with minimal damage.

besides that, there is already enough evidence to suggest transgenderism is likely a social/psychological phenomenon with all these young children growing up under the care of a/transgender parents with higher rates of identifying as non-binary.

>> No.17845390

>>17837123
this is true, a strong sense of self is antifragile. transgenderism is rooted in weak, underdeveloped psyches. the fact that you've reached theoretical maturity and are trying to negate large parts of being are a clear indication that something has gone very wrong

>> No.17845399

>>17845363
>anima/animus reside in shadow
arent they separate archetypes?

>> No.17845422

>>17844511
>You want a study that isolates for transgender people who forgo treatment, but transgender people are identified by the fact that they seek treatment/transition. It’s an impossible task.
This explains so much wow.
>detransition rate is so low bro its very rare
Yeah, I wonder why

>> No.17845432

>>17843902
Bump this comment again

You anon >>17841265 answer

>> No.17845441

>>17845399
I dont think anima and animus are designated as archetypes. There may be symbols or religions that point to them, and THOSE would be the archetypes. But the psychological phenomenon of the syzygy wouldnt necessarily be the archetype no.

>> No.17845446

>>17843555
i’ll skim it thanks for the reference

>> No.17845644

>>17843902
Bump

>> No.17846050

>>17845317
communism is a utopian ideology. it's like saying the garden of eden is dead because some cult said they'd recreate it. it's a model society which socialism seeks to achieve. but another thing is, socialism certainly is not dead, neoliberals have just found better ways to subvert its thinking

>> No.17847182
File: 156 KB, 806x1227, E8681BE2-9C6B-4D53-8B5A-E852F2666250.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17847182

>>17837251
>In Native American tribes and other societies people dressed and presented at women.
>>17843339
>i hardly believe there is proper evidence to back that up.
>>17843555
>there is [link is pic related]

Dammit, /lit/.

>>17845446
>i’ll skim it thanks for the reference
my sides

>> No.17847266

>anima
>animus
>anime

Connect the dots. You are being programmed.

>> No.17847280

>>17847266
anime pussy

>> No.17847726

>>17843902
Hey anon. Glad the thread stayed alive.

I’m sorry, but I think I might be struggling with a language barrier. Out of curiosity, is your first language Spanish? Have you ever met a muxe?

Just for example, the way you used “oxidized” and “rusty” is a little strange. Those are correct synonyms, but it means something different when we say a person is rusty vs. an object is rusty. If an object is rusty, it means that its usefulness is diminished or degraded (especially over time). That’s what I think you meant, but when a person is rusty, it usually means that they are out of practice. For example, when it comes to playing baseball I’m rusty because I haven’t played in a few years.

I think I agree with the gist of what you’ve said. To summarize, that Jung’s animus/anima is limited in scope, especially when you get granular about all the stuff that influences in addiction to stereotypes, normalizing forces, chemical qualities, etc. It still has it’s application, even if he is a vato sometimes

Alas, I’m not touching the free will discussion with a ten foot pole!

I totally agree with you about coomers being coerced into complacence by hormonal reactions though. May you live to fight many tigers, my friend. (But that is a humerous personification. We usually only say people can do the verb “coerce”)

I wasn’t put off by your putting family into the category of institution. Moreso, it’s a little intuitively strange to attribute oppressiveness to the family. Strictly speaking, you could probably make a good case for why that description is accurate, but the connotations of the word “opressive” make is sound remarkably edgy.
Keep it up, anon. You seem like you might be pretty bright under the language awkwardness.

>> No.17847740

>>17847726
>influences in addiction to stereotypes
Meant “influences human experience in addition to...”

>> No.17848244

>>17837464
i will fucking kill myself if you don't let me get melanin surgery and call me Nigger Jim.

>> No.17848253

>>17848244
This goes back to Jung's concept of albinus and niggima

>> No.17848265

>>17848253
LEL

>> No.17848539
File: 58 KB, 960x540, 1555538598190.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17848539

>>17837818
>being stuck in representation
it's okay kid, you'll grow up someday

>> No.17848876

>>17848539
Yeah, that pretty much is what happens to transpeople. They become trapped in a representational mode of expression. Quite cheap.

>> No.17848979

>>17835541
no

>> No.17849522

>>17844606
Go easy on him, he's slow.

>>
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