Is he the greatest poet of all time?

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Anonymous Sun Mar 14 21:10:29 2021 No.17784256 [Reply] [Original]

Is he the greatest poet of all time?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 14 21:14:36 2021 No.17784276 >>17784256 He is the greatest poet of all space.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Sun Mar 14 21:16:39 2021 No.17784289 >>17784256 No. Not even close.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 14 23:00:23 2021 No.17784801 pretty damn good but i prefer others like Novatore or Vigil.

>>	࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDYqWRDiE Sun Mar 14 23:19:30 2021 No.17784892 File: 445 KB, 1367x1809, JUANA INÉS DE LA CRUZ I.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17784256 NO —EL MEJOR POETA ES JUANA INÉS DE LA CRUZ.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 14 23:21:24 2021 No.17784897 >>17784276 Based metaphysician bro

>>	Arbiter of Truth and Knowledge Sun Mar 14 23:37:45 2021 No.17784970 >>17784256 Fucking retard. James joyce is, he just masquerades as a novelist.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 02:16:51 2021 No.17785716 File: 154 KB, 1005x709, 89B3F7BE-5F15-429C-B3E3-F7E40F3A4F23.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Yes he is. No doubt about it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 04:42:15 2021 No.17786318 >>17784970 James Joyce actually isn't that good at writing in meter.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 04:58:16 2021 No.17786372 >>17784256 Yes and it's not even close

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 04:58:43 2021 No.17786377 >>17784289 who is it for you?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:01:48 2021 No.17786390 >>17786372 Who is the second place if it is not even close to you?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:05:09 2021 No.17786403 >>17784256 Catullus is

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:07:07 2021 No.17786413 >>17784256 no

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:11:25 2021 No.17786430 >>17784256 Yes >>17784289 Amazing how butterfly has the wrong opinion every time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:22:59 2021 No.17786471 >>17784256 Obviously. >>17786430 >Amazing how butterfly has the wrong opinion every time That's exactly what I thought

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:39:12 2021 No.17786534

>>17784256
Probably yes, but it's honestly a tie for me between Homer, Dante, and maybe Shakespeare. But then there are the great Greek dramatists like Sophocles, and even Nietzsche said only Wagner rivalled Dante's ability to portray an image in such detail. It's never going to be completely settled.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:39:52 2021 No.17786538 >>17784256 It's Ovid

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:44:03 2021 No.17786556 File: 283 KB, 681x800, Ossian._Den_gamle_blinde_skotske_barde_synger_til_harpen_sin_svanesang.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] No, he is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:45:52 2021 No.17786563 >>17786430 That's not butterfly

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:46:49 2021 No.17786570 >>17786534 >Greek dramatists >poets Anon, they are quite literally not writing poetry.

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:47:54 2021 No.17786576

>>17784256
Nope, because Ariosto will BTFO him nearly two centuries after.
Read Orlando Furioso and find out.
There's everything in Orlando Furioso: Epicness, love, hate, death, life, war, society, human nature, the folly of the Renaissance, a lot of comedy, extremely good characterization, symbolism, virtues...
Not only ALL of that, but instead of being one big allegory as is The Divine Comedy, it's a GREAT novel.
But WAIT, didn't I tell you that the verses in which the story is told are absolutely poetically delightful?! That they touch you deep within your soul?
Here are some excerpts from the best English translation:

« But when the pagan plied his sword, the sound
With whining, whistling winds might well compare
Which through the mountain peaks in March resound,
Or seize the forest by its tangled hair,
Bending the tree-tops down to kiss the ground,
And whirling broken branches through the air.
Although the prince avoided many blows,
One finally was sure to come too close.

One mighty stroke at last achieved its aim.
Between his sword and shield it reached his breast.
His mail was thick, his corslet was the same,
His metal apron too was of the best,
Yet through them passed that sword of cruel fame.
They being unequal to this crucial test,
Nothing resisted the descending blow
Which slashed from mid-breast to the saddle-bow.»

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 05:48:36 2021 No.17786581 >>17786570 based retard

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 06:30:35 2021 No.17786742 >>17786534 >Cuckner compared to Dante Is this a joke?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 06:36:12 2021 No.17786760 >>17786742 kek this. wagner is obviously superior

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 06:46:34 2021 No.17786802 So, like, what is that white thing supposed to be?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 06:50:48 2021 No.17786823 >>17786471 >>17786430 >>17786372 Why?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 06:52:18 2021 No.17786828 >>17786802 Part of his hat, or more likely, a cap he wears over his hair which goes under his hat from the 13th century.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 06:57:09 2021 No.17786861 >>17786802 Earflap

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 08:58:48 2021 No.17787420 >>17786570 Tragedies are written in verse.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:01:56 2021 No.17787435 >>17787420 verse = poetry is the most midwit opinion there is

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:32:25 2021 No.17787563 >>17784256 He's literally the Italian Ernest Cline

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:33:32 2021 No.17787566 File: 6 KB, 205x246, headless wojak.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17787435 >Shakespeare wasn't a poet

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:36:32 2021 No.17787584 >>17786576 Torquato tasso shat over both

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:38:41 2021 No.17787590 >>17787566 Did you hit your head really hard before typing this? You are so dumb it's making me worried about you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:38:54 2021 No.17787591 >>17784256 Whoever was the author of the Iliad and the Odyssey is the greatest poet of all time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:40:27 2021 No.17787599 >>17786403 Incredibly based

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:46:15 2021 No.17787631 >>17784256 >>17784801 >>17786403 >>17786534 >>17786538 >>17786576 >>17787591 How can you judge poetry that you read after it has been translated from its original language? You’re really just judging the translator’s poetry

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:46:28 2021 No.17787632 >>17787590 Was Shakespeare not a poet in your definition?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:48:32 2021 No.17787642 >>17787631 I read the original version of the divine comedy and he's still the greatest poet of all time

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 09:49:28 2021 No.17787644

>>17787632
Shakespeare is obviously a poet. The fact that verses does not equal poetry does not imply that everything written in verses is not poetry. I was only responding to the point you made that because tragedies are written in verse they are made by poets.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 10:35:41 2021 No.17787807 File: 322 KB, 1214x1600, William-Blake-oil-canvas-Thomas-Phillips-National-1807.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] steps in your way

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 10:42:09 2021 No.17787842 >>17787642 How did you learn latin

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 10:48:22 2021 No.17787868 What’s the best English translation of the divine comedy

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 11:07:25 2021 No.17787980 >>17787842 Seeths

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 11:23:39 2021 No.17788115 >>17787842 >>17787980 it is in fucking italian you retards

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 11:38:22 2021 No.17788247 >>17786534 Why would I care what a schizo philosopher with a poor literature background says

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 11:39:35 2021 No.17788255 >>17787642 How fucking dumb are you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 11:40:39 2021 No.17788264 >/lit/ unironically thinks the divine comedy is in latin

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 11:43:07 2021 No.17788286 >>17784289 It's kinda impressive how fucking stupid you are on a daily basis huh

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 11:45:27 2021 No.17788305 >>17788264 Haha I know right. It's obviously in Spanish

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 13:36:07 2021 No.17789145 >>17787631 I'm Italian and I can safely say that the Paradiso has some of the most beautiful sentences ever put on paper. Dante gets a lot of popularity thanks to the Inferno but the Paradiso is the highest piece of literature ever written.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 13:52:51 2021 No.17789268 >>17787644 Can you name some works that are written entirely in verse but are not poems?

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 13:56:43 2021 No.17789294

>>17789268
Molière - Tartuffe for instance
On the other hand it's fair to consider Songs of Maldoror as a poem while it's entirely written in prose. Poets such as Baudelaire, Claudel, Reverdy and many others also published works comprised entirely of prose poems.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 14:06:13 2021 No.17789361 >>17789294 Why would Tartuffe not be a poem? As for whether or not something not written in verse can be a poem, that is another matter altogether; I was arguing that being written in verse makes something poetry, not the contrary.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 14:23:35 2021 No.17789502 >>17789361 >>17789268 You can't apply rational argumentation to everything. It ends up being mental masturbation. If it's poetry or not you immediately feel it.

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 14:25:54 2021 No.17789513

>>17789361
>Why would Tartuffe not be a poem?
Short answer: because it was not written as one and because no one considers it to be one. There is no "essential poetry", it's just a term that defines a literary genre (works in linguistics have dived deeper into the question for instance).

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 14:25:55 2021 No.17789514 >>17784256 No, he was

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 14:28:17 2021 No.17789527 File: 260 KB, 702x883, Portrait_of_Geoffrey_Chaucer_(4671380)_(cropped)_02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17789514 pic didn't upload for some reason

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 14:29:10 2021 No.17789536 >>17787842 >Dante >Writing in latin This has to be bait. Its a statement too stupid even for the absolute state of this board

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 14:30:37 2021 No.17789553 >>17789536 He wrote a few works in Latin

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 15:17:03 2021 No.17789937
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There is no book comparable to The Comedy. In scope, style, amount of characters, meaning, etc. It is one of the greatest achievements of humanity, or well, a human being.

When you consider everything Dante went through in his personal life, the Comedy is even more spectacular. It is an achievement, a testament of what human will can do.

Dante earned a place beyond space and time, there is no below or above. Every writer wishes he could be a fraction of what Dante was.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:11:47 2021 No.17790469 >>17789937 You really need to separate the artist from the art, and see that you're vastly overrating the book. Sure, the book is good, great even, but "a place beyond space and time" is a bit silly, don't you think?

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:14:25 2021 No.17790494
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>>17789514
>>17789527
Chaucer is definitely my favourite pre-Romantic English poet. Probably tied with John Donne. Though I wouldn't call him "the greatest poet of all time," but W.B Yeats is definitely my favourite, and I'd argue the best, post-Romantic poet in English.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:14:54 2021 No.17790503 >>17790469 He's right. When you read the Comedy in Italian and you understand every bit of it you realize that there is nothing else like it. The Comedy is the literary equivalent of the Sistine Chapel.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:16:02 2021 No.17790523 >>17790494 They're all pretty good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:18:22 2021 No.17790547 Best translation?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:28:08 2021 No.17790645 >>17790503 >the Sistine Chapel >being beautiful kek

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:28:51 2021 No.17790653 I am, but you’ll never know.

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:33:22 2021 No.17790690
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>>17790547
I've never read The Divine Comedy but Alasdair Gray who is a great author anyway translated it and when I get round to reading it this will be the translation I choose. I haven't read a word of it but I expect it to be great. He illustrates all his covers as well by the way.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:36:07 2021 No.17790717 >>17790469 Entra nel petto mio, e spira tue sì come quando Marsïa traesti de la vagina de le membra sue (paradise 1) Literally how do you beat this

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 16:40:02 2021 No.17790761 >>17790717 English will never, ever, reach this peak of perfection. It's something that has to do with the language.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 17:00:02 2021 No.17790968 >>17790717 >vagina Hehe

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 17:41:15 2021 No.17791286 >>17787807 I have his complete poems and so far, theyre pretty good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 19:55:53 2021 No.17792336 >>17789553 we are talking about divine comedy. such a dunce you are

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 19:57:16 2021 No.17792345 do.. people really think its in latin? this is bait right

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 20:06:32 2021 No.17792409 >>17790761 Literally every other word rimes with each other in italian. Riming is a vulgar ornament. This is why Milton is the best poet, and english being the most poetic language, bitch.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 20:07:17 2021 No.17792414 File: 417 KB, 1200x1200, william-shakespeare-194895-1-402.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Are you people from under a rock?

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Mon Mar 15 20:17:32 2021 No.17792477

He is one of the greatest in history, the question of absolute greatest requires too much personal taste to answer.

>>17792409
Terza rima is beautiful and incredibly difficult to sustain over a long period, Dante’s rhythm is also fantastic, recite or hear recited any part of Paradiso. Milton is also one of the world’s greatest in my eyes but he clearly owes many debts to Dante, Spenser, Josuah Sylvester, Homer and many other great poets, As such Milton wouldn’t mock Dante even if he disagrees on the matter of rhyme.

>>17792414
Shakespeare is great but they’re very different Poets and again the question of taste, no part of Shakespeare has ever brought me to tears or induced in my imagination a scene of complete celestial glory or the phantasmal liminal quality in the same way that Dante does repeatedly in his work. For someone like me, the philosophy and glory of Dante is far more interesting and entertaining and moving.

Anonymous Mon Mar 15 20:29:18 2021 No.17792561

>>17792477
Yea I was just joking with the rime thing. I really love Dante, and I agree that when comparing the great poets it comes down to taste. I feel they all create their own language that renders there work totally unique and valuable. Anybody could study Shakespeare or Dante for their entire life, and it would be worth it in each case.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 20:31:32 2021 No.17792576 >>17792477 Also did you ever read Dante in any translations, and if so, were any them good?

>>	Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Mon Mar 15 20:34:14 2021 No.17792599 >>17792561 Completely fair enough, question from out of the blue, have you read Ariosto? If so how do you feel he compares to Dante?

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Mon Mar 15 20:42:05 2021 No.17792658

>>17792576
I’ve read Ciardi, Longfellow and Hollander and I’ve sampled the other major translations. All of the translations are pretty bad, it’s a testament to the beauty of Dante’s mind and ability that when his verse is butchered, it still shines with so much beauty of image and quality. But when I read/re-read Dante I like to also recite/read the canto in Italian just to grasp the sound I’m missing out on. All in all, all of the translations fail, this is because

1=Long form terza rima is very difficult, I’ve written longer poems in it and if you’re not putting enough effort in, you’ll resort to writing mush just to fill the rhyme, because you can’t just substitute it. But this is remedied by those authors who choose not to use the rhyme scheme

2=ignoring rhyme, the rhythm of Dante is one of the greatest in world history and this is noticeable by just hearing it without meaning, examining the syllables. I’ve done this for much global poetry, Dante is superb.

3=oddities in the text, Dante has a ton of local references, he uses word play, he constructs words, he references lore and the key to Dante which is so excellent about him, is he can create a fully fleshed out and powerful simile with a very very small amount of words, this high descriptive and charged nature of his verse means you can either try to match up with one of the worlds masters or translate literally. And people often fail here in either case.

Dante simply hasn’t had the proper translation come along yet and I’m unsure if it’s really doable by any poet who isn’t of a similar quality, I believe it was Mallarme who said when translating poetry, you remove the spirit from the work and must infuse a new spirit into it. Trying to match the spirit of Dante is a fool’s errand.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 20:47:12 2021 No.17792692 >>17792658 What languages do you speak/read? Also could you recommend the least shitty translation of the divine comedy

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Mon Mar 15 20:54:41 2021 No.17792743

>>17792692
English, romani(gypo) and Middle English are the only ones I truly know, but due to study of tantra I’ve a lot of exposure to Sanskrit and if forced can grind out a basic translation if it isn’t too obscure, and because of study of Kabbalah and abrahamicism I’ve a bit of knowledge of Hebrew and Greek and I’m currently studying Hebrew both ancient and modern. I also have a ton of exposure to various types of Chinese due to study of Taoism and Confucian stuff and chink poetry in general, just from reading and music taste I’ve spent time analyzing the syllables of various German poetry. Studying occultism in general also exposes you to a lot of different untranslated poetry, I’m not unfamiliar with what we have of Akkadian poetry for example.

As for which to read, if you want to go rather deep, the notes in Hollander make him worth it though they aren’t as theological as I would like, ciardi is better if you want an easy first time through, Longfellow is kind of fun due to it being translated by Longfellow. So pick your poison.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 21:13:02 2021 No.17792858 >>17792743 Interesting thanks anon. You seem to be very immersed in the esoteric what do you do day to day if you don’t mind me asking

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Mon Mar 15 21:25:06 2021 No.17792933

>>17792858
I’m a Gypsy, most of us are uneducated but relatively wealthy, as such I make a good deal of profit by acting as a middle man for us in the purchasing of jewelry. Gypsy cannot determine weight in gold, value in diamonds and other such and also do not know how to bargain. I also own auto repair shop but that more or less takes care of itself by now. Both of these aren’t very demanding and give me a lot of down time to just read and the like. But ehh, apologies Anons, I’m sure no one wants to hear about personal autism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 15 21:32:18 2021 No.17792961 >>17792933 That sounds pretty comfy desu. How’s life as a gypsy? You guys have a pretty bad reputation around where I live

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 03:06:58 2021 No.17794662 >>17792409 You don't get it. Italian has the most beautiful sound, that's it. English sounds like a mouth chewing food. I'm not saying you don't have amazing poets, I'm just saying they can't write the most perfect verses in absolute.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 03:33:26 2021 No.17794740 99% of you faggots have not read the original fuck off

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 03:44:55 2021 No.17794774 >>17792933 As a lurker, your commentary is always a pleasure.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 04:50:01 2021 No.17794946 >>17792933 LARP

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 05:01:01 2021 No.17794974 File: 64 KB, 800x525, Jozef-Loskoczynski-Cyprian-Norwid-grayscale.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17784256 You're havin a laff m8. It's this little fella.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 05:03:36 2021 No.17794984 HEY i dont know or have time to learn italian so in what language would it be best to read the divine comedy; english, spanish or swedish? Pls respond

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 05:07:32 2021 No.17794999 >>17794984 just watch the silent movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M9e6jxA9tA

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 05:14:33 2021 No.17795013 >>17794984 as to italian, spanish is more preferable than english due to its linguistic similarity as you could figure out western romance languages, but you're not that fluent in spanish, get into english one instead. definitely not swedish

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 05:16:44 2021 No.17795026 File: 145 KB, 585x767, 1612917693986.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17784892 interesting

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 05:17:39 2021 No.17795028 >>17784256 Ovid.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 05:59:15 2021 No.17795185 >>17786377 probably some Sappho copycat

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 06:02:13 2021 No.17795202 >>17794999 Holy based. I didn't know about this. Trips totally deserved, anon.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 08:40:30 2021 No.17795775 >>17784256 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 08:43:13 2021 No.17795788 File: 53 KB, 332x499, 61am9lYSNGL._SX330_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17794984 Spanish

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Tue Mar 16 09:10:43 2021 No.17795895

>>17792961
It’s pretty comfy considering the high family culture, traditionalism of it and so forth, only major negative is the anti-intellectualism.

>>17794946
Nah, I’ve posted my own personal translations of our songs around if you’re interested in reading them, if you want I’ll post some.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 09:45:09 2021 No.17796111 >>17784256 For me, it's Vergil.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 10:17:50 2021 No.17796314 Is the Robin Kirkpatrick translation of The Divine Comedy any good?

>>	A Woman Tue Mar 16 11:55:37 2021 No.17796902 >>17784289 You're not even close.

Anonymous Tue Mar 16 12:06:13 2021 No.17796943

>>17787644
And my point was that the Greek tragedians were also poets. I have no idea how you think that they are not, and the fact that you believe in a deeper definition to the poetic than mere technical rhyme and metre, as you have said, yet reject the Greek tragedians shows that you haven't read them.

I didn't say "they were poets because they wrote in verse", did I? You just presumed they weren't poets, and so assumed I only defined them as such because of verse. I spoke of them in the context of the other great poets like Shakespeare and Dante, that is great poets, not the entire history of verse-writing.

Did you read my original post wrong or just accidentally assume?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 12:11:59 2021 No.17796975 >>17787842 based retard

Anonymous Tue Mar 16 13:11:31 2021 No.17797289

>>17796943
>I have no idea how you think that they are not
I never said that, I am not the anon who responded to you in the first place, which may have caused a little confusion. I merely said that verse=poetry is a retarded opinion.
>I didn't say "they were poets because they wrote in verse"
You said they wrote in verse, implying very strongly that because of that (and only because of that) they were poets.

Anonymous Tue Mar 16 14:04:32 2021 No.17797597

>>17797289
That did indeed cause a little confusion, but when when I said "the tragedies were written in verse", it was in response to an anon who I thought maybe did not know this. And it seems I may have been right considering only you responded to my post.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 14:57:32 2021 No.17797949 >>17797289 >>17797597 I'm the Anon who made this post >>17786570, now returning to this thread, and I'm happy to see my little abhorent shitpost caused a ruckus. Take it easy, lads.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 15:23:36 2021 No.17798128 >>17784256 he wrote the greatest self-insert fanfiction of all time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 15:24:55 2021 No.17798141 >>17798128 reddit

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 16:55:09 2021 No.17798764 >>17784256 Yes. Of course.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 17:01:22 2021 No.17798800 File: 93 KB, 663x800, 9DB2F62A-4A72-4596-A110-72E8084A6CF0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17784256

Anonymous Tue Mar 16 17:06:50 2021 No.17798835
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>>17798800
Didn't Eliot call Pound the better better craftsman?

And now that I think of it.. that's a quote from Dante about Arnaut Daniel, so if Dante is the greatest poet, wouldn't that make Arnaut Daniel the actual greatest poet?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 17:41:35 2021 No.17799061 >>17798800 He's not even the best of his century

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 17:52:49 2021 No.17799135 >>17786430 Butterfly is actually pretty based, she just means the opposite of she says

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Tue Mar 16 17:53:00 2021 No.17799137

>>17798835
Arnaut is pretty good, but the focus on love song and how short his work is really lessens him in terms of my personal taste. I’ve read him but I’ve more enjoyed hearing him be sung by various bands on YouTube. It’s really much more fitting because his stuff was designed for it. I’d still consider Dante superior.

If you want to get technical, the greatest poets to Dante would be Virgil, Homer, Horace, Lucan, and Ovid along with arnaut Daniel. Lucan is actually very high quality but he’s not really discussed here’s a particular favorite part of Lucan’s work.

Last comes her voice, bewitching the gods of Lethe [685-718] 685

more potently than any drug, first composed of jumbled noises,

jarring, utterly discordant with human speech:

the bark of dogs and howl of wolves,

the owl's cry of alarm, the screech-owl's night-time moan,

the wild beasts' shriek and wail, the serpent's hiss; 690

it utters too the beating of the cliff-smashed wave,

the sound of forests, and the thunderings of the fissured cloud;

of so many noises was one voice the source. Then she speaks

in Haemonian incantation and pierces Tartarus with utterance thus:

'I invoke the Eumenides, Hell's horror, and the Avengers; [695]

I invoke Chaos, eager to disorder countless worlds; [696]

I invoke the ruler of the earth, tormented for long future ages [697]

by the drawn-out death of the gods; I invoke the Styx, and the Elysian fields

no witch of Thessaly may reach; I invoke Persephone, loathing sky

and mother; and the lowest form of our Hecate, through whom [700] 700

the shades and I in silent utterance may commune;

I invoke the porter of the wide abode, who tosses human entrails

to the savage hound; I invoke the Sisters soon to spin a second

thread

of life, and you, a ferryman of the blazing water, [704]

old man already tired out by shades returning to me:

heed my prayers. Do I summon you with mouth sufficiently

abominable and polluted? Do I ever chant these spells

without consuming human entrails? How many times have I cut out

breasts filled by deity and washed them with warm brains?

Are there no babes, about to enter life, who laid 710

their head and heart upon your dishes? Then obey my prayer.

A soul I ask for, not one lying hid in the cave of Tartarus

and long accustomed to the darkness, but a soul on its way down,

life's light just fled, a soul still hesitating at the door

to pallid Orcus' chasm, a soul which, though he drain these drugs, [715]

will join the dead once only. Let the ghost of a soldier with us [716]

recently foretell all Pompey's future to the leader's son,

if civil wars have earned your gratitude.'

Cont

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Tue Mar 16 17:54:03 2021 No.17799146

>>17799137
When, having said these things, she lifted up her head and her
720 foaming lips, she beheld the ghost of the extended corpse standing
by, dreading the lifeless limbs and the hated place of its
former confinement. It was dreading to go into the gaping
breasts, and the entrails torn with a deadly wound.
Ah wretch! from whom unrighteously the last privilege of death
725 is snatched, to be able to die! Erictho is surprised that
this delay has been permitted by the Fates, and, enraged with death,
with living serpents she beats the unmoved body; and through
the hollow clefts of the earth, which with her charms she opens, she
barks forth to the shades below, and breaks the silence of the realms:--
730 "Tisiphone, and Megaera, heedless of my voice, are ye
not driving the wretched soul with your ruthless whips through
the void space of Erebus? This moment under your real name will I
summon you forth, and, Stygian bitches, will leave you in the light of the
upper world; amid graves will I follow you, amid funereal rites, your watcher;
735 from the tombs will I expel you, from all the urns will I drive you away.
And thee, Hecate, squalid with thy pallid form, will I expose
to
the Gods, before whom in false shape with other features thou art
wont to come, and I will forbid thee to conceal the visage of Erebus.
I will disclose, damsel of Enna, under the boundless bulk
740 of the earth, what feasts are detaining thee, upon what compact
thou dost love the gloomy sovereign, to what corruption having submitted,
thy parent was unwilling to call thee back. Against thee, most evil ruler
of the worlds, into thy burst caverns will I send the sun, and with
sudden daylight thou shalt be smitten. Are you going to obey?
745 Or will he have to be addressed, by whom never, when named,
the shaken earth fails to tremble, who beholds the Gorgon
exposed to view, and with his stripes chastises the quailing Erinys,
who occupies depths of Tartarus by you unseen; in whose power
you are, ye Gods above; who by the Stygian waves forswears."

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 17:59:11 2021 No.17799175 How is poets greatness measured? What are the parameters that determine their power level?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 17:59:37 2021 No.17799180 >>17784256 It's Pound, that man was something else, I'd wager he'd be the first to undergo a second Renaissance in a couple of hundred of years when most poets from this era aren't really talked about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 18:02:01 2021 No.17799201 >>17786576 >the folly of the Renaissance What does he say about that?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 18:05:18 2021 No.17799233 >>17799137 >If you want to get technical, the greatest poets to Dante would be Virgil, Homer, I thought Dante hadn't read Homer?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 18:06:38 2021 No.17799246 >>17799180 >It's Pound As far as modern poetry goes, Mallarmé takes the cakes IMO

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 18:09:51 2021 No.17799268 >>17799246 Hmm I've read him briefly before, will give another look.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Tue Mar 16 18:13:05 2021 No.17799289

>>17799233
He hadn’t as far as evidence shows but in the canto where he meets up with the greatest dead poets, he says Homer is among the crowned and above all others he is special in the group and bares a sword. Think of it like writing a poem and mentioning Orpheus as the greatest poet, even though all authentic Orphic poetry is probably gone and we only have the latter cult Orphic material. In any case, he still esteemed Homer as the highest among the group of poets.

>>17799246
Mallarme in my opinion is also far superior to pound, I’d even call mallarme a favorite. But pound has been incredibly influential and I can agree to the idea that he’ll probably be talked about much in the future and studied/copied much in the future. Even if he’s not as good as mallarme (to me) I still see pound as probably having more cultural sway in the long term.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Tue Mar 16 18:14:31 2021 No.17799294

>>17799268
Read some of his more normal poetry and you’ll see his skill.
This is a pretty standard poem of his.

Apparition

The moon grew sad. Weeping seraphim,
dreaming, bows in hand, in the calm of hazy
flowers, drew from dying viols
white sobs that glided over the corollas’ blue.
—It was the blessed day of your first kiss.
My dreaming, glad to torment me,
grew skilfully drunk on the perfumed sadness
that—without regret or bitter after-taste—
the harvest of a Dream leaves in the reaper’s heart.
And so I wandered, my eyes fixed on the old paving stones,
when with sun-flecked hair, in the street
and in the evening, you appeared laughing before me
and I thought I glimpsed the fairy with her cap of light
who long ago crossed my lovely spoilt child’s slumbers,
always allowing from her half-closed hands
white bouquets of scented flowers to snow.

(Here’s the French if you know or are interested.)

Apparition

La lune s’attristait. Des séraphins en pleurs
Rêvant, l’archet aux doigts, dans le calme des fleurs
Vaporeuses, tiraient de mourantes violes
De blancs sanglots glissant sur l’azur des corolles.
—C’était le jour béni de ton premier baiser.
Ma songerie aimant à me martyriser
S’enivrait savamment du parfum de tristesse
Que même sans regret et sans déboire laisse
La cueillaison d’un Rêve au cœur qui l’a cueilli.
J’errais donc, l’œil rivé sur le pavé vieilli,
Quand avec du soleil aux cheveux, dans la rue
Et dans le soir, tu m’es en riant apparue
Et j’ai cru voir la fée au chapeau de clarté
Qui jadis sur mes beaux sommeils d’enfant gâté
Passait, laissant toujours de ses mains mal fermées
Neiger de blancs bouquets d’étoiles parfumées.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 18:15:14 2021 No.17799300 >>17786403 based and facefuckingpilled

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 18:21:08 2021 No.17799340 File: 165 KB, 650x883, 115FE4D8-397E-4D73-840F-1CDFDEFAC8D2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17784256 it would be dante, if he had a hard life.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 19:34:44 2021 No.17799835 >>17799340 nigga was exiled

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 19:37:21 2021 No.17799858 >>17799835 >the two greatest poets ever were exiled is getting exiled the secret to writing GOAT tier poetry?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 19:38:52 2021 No.17799865 >>17799858 can you even get exiled today? or do you have to do some kundera self-imposed exile instead

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 22:32:05 2021 No.17800991 File: 67 KB, 500x695, 17F46D9F-4FDE-4EEF-9006-EF321FB37107.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17799865 it’s called getting cancelled now

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 16 23:33:22 2021 No.17801451 >>17784256 He's not even the greatest poet of his century

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 02:08:57 2021 No.17802290 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 02:22:32 2021 No.17802350 >>17799858 Yes. See Bladee and his Exile track.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 02:43:41 2021 No.17802431 >>17795185 Sappho is to legbeards and trannies what Evola is to incels

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 02:50:47 2021 No.17802453

>>17802431
I don’t understand how people can say Sappho is their favorite or how they love her, there’s so little of her work and what does remain isn’t all that impressive. How can you pick Sappho over the Orphic hymns or the works of Horace or Ovid or Homer. There are so many superior ancients both Greek and Latin which easily overwhelm the scraps we have of Sappho.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 02:53:50 2021 No.17802471 >>17784256 no

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 02:57:00 2021 No.17802482 >>17792477 Shakespeare hasn't brought you to tears? Are you a robot?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:00:04 2021 No.17802499 >>17799858 Surviving a siege also.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 03:01:27 2021 No.17802507

>>17802482
Yes. I can only be brought to tears by religious fervor and only feel heavy emotion when it relates to religion. Anything less and I am absolutely neutral. I still deeply enjoy Shakespeare on the level of aesthetic, character analysis, humor, plot construction, sound, and other such elements. My favorites of his are the tempest and a midsummer’s night dream personally.

Is what it is, we have different tastes and compositions.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:05:23 2021 No.17802522 >>17802507 Shakespeare is an extremely religious writer.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 03:09:32 2021 No.17802540

>>17802522
I know, and I quite like the poem of his which takes it to the most burning bitch, Phoenix and the turtle. I also know how much esotericism is in his works. The problem is too much of it is fixated on human character, quality and psychology, it’s simply not appealing to me on a emotional level compared to the raw sublime glory of something like paradiso, parts of paradise lost or the hymnes of Spenser.

>>	Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 03:11:10 2021 No.17802554 >>17802540 Whoops, spellcheck error, pitch not bitch.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:16:01 2021 No.17802581 >>17784256 No

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:26:12 2021 No.17802621 >>17802540 But everything that Shakespeare is doing, albeit more or less in other works, is placing man before God and religion. The religiosity of life.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 03:34:26 2021 No.17802648

>>17802621
That’s fixation on the human element of religion and the inner-life, of which does not inspire zeal in me. The journey of men to knowing the eternal and doing away with the transient, coming to terms with vanity and so forth doesn’t inflame me, what inflames me is the thought of the eternal and the things of eternity. The journey of the religious life is not intoxicating, the Christ who is the result of the religious life is intoxicating.

Shakespeare is fixated on the human, I need ethereal glory. It’s a question of taste and by no means a fault of Shakespeare.

Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:41:56 2021 No.17802678

>>17802648
THE ETERNAL IS REALISED THROUGH THE TEMPORAL. You cannot create so sharp a divide between the eternal and temporary in Dante and Shakespeare; the merits which Shakespeare portrays are of an eternal value and importance.

Why do you think Dante got to Heaven? You also have to understand the nature of Shakespeare as dramatic.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:42:58 2021 No.17802682 >>17802540 What do you think of Wagner's operas? Like Parsifal?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:45:04 2021 No.17802698 >>17784256 Yeah, no.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 03:49:18 2021 No.17802715

>>17802678
>THE ETERNAL IS REALISED THROUGH THE TEMPORAL.

That very well may be, this doesn’t stop the fact that I am far more overwhelmed with bliss reading of the ascent of John, Paul, Ezekiel and so forth much more than I am with the suffering of David, and I am more inflamed with moses as he speaks with God than when he speaks to the Israelites, so also am I more inflamed when Milton speaks of Christ choosing to take flesh for the sin of man out of his boundless love more so than I am of any earthly man in his earthly struggle.

>You cannot create so sharp a divide between the eternal and temporary in Dante and Shakespeare; the merits which Shakespeare portrays are of an eternal value and importance.

Yes but they are bound up and portray themselves within the temporal, and the beauty is a beauty of the temporal. The form is not the highest divine form, I require the religious revelation as a minimum.

>Why do you think Dante got to Heaven? You also have to understand the nature of Shakespeare as dramatic.

I get the point anon, it’s simply that I on an emotional level only find pleasure in visions of God, the heavens, his return and so forth.

>>17802682
Love Wagner, whether his music, his prose theories or his poetry. As for parsifal, extremely esoteric and veiled, a ton of mysteries of which I plan to write a long essay concerning eventually. Wagner is great. I like goethe more though on average.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:50:12 2021 No.17802720 I only speak english so I can only speak for English poets. I think its probably Shakespeare, but Milton is rather good too.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 03:54:32 2021 No.17802731 >>17802715 Wagner always seemed to lead on to (the best of) modern culture, as Goethe did to the Romantic. But do you think Wagner's sublimity rivals Dante's?

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 04:01:11 2021 No.17802754

>>17802731
I don’t believe so, Wagner soars extremely high, but the misty phantasmal land of Dante’s purgatory is alive within me and at times will strike my imagination and capture me, so also with the circle dance of the sun-shining saints, the great Eagle, the holy rose and descending Christ, the vision of reality as clockwork. You get the idea. I believe Wagner is powerful and his intention of wrapping religious ideas in aesthetics in order to mature the religious and develop it further than any religion could is a idea worth esteeming and has a lot of connection to Neoplatonic conceptions, but Dante, for me at least, he stained my mind with his vision. However, Wagner has a total effect utilizing image and music which changes the experience, while that’s respectable I find that the pure poetry of Dante is more powerful. I’d be fine with saying that Wagner eclipses Dante in inferno though.

Anonymous Wed Mar 17 04:29:27 2021 No.17802839

>>17802754
I think it's definitely a misunderstanding to think Wagner believed he was representing religious ideas better than the religions themselves; he believed in the definite places of religion, philosophy and art, but he did believe that for the sake of the artwork itself, it could sometimes better embody religious ideas by dispelling with the prior sensual dogma. I don't think he meant for religion itself. With Parsifal he no doubt realised the importance of traditional imagery most directly.

And it's interesting that Wagner criticised Dante's recurring restriction to dogma throughout the Comedy.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 04:32:22 2021 No.17802849

>>17802839
>I think it's definitely a misunderstanding to think Wagner believed he was representing religious ideas better than the religions themselves;

I’m referring to his writing on art where he argues that man is nature becoming conscious of itself and art is man becoming conscious of itself, that art is a reflection of man, that art and religion both express certain truths and mysteries of man, but while religion is bound by historical truth, art has the capacity to expand truth and meaning by folding it in on itself through art. This isn’t to say art is replacing religion, but rather he believed in a position of art that further developed the religious truth. Have you read his essays on art?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 04:34:08 2021 No.17802853 >>17802849 I think you might be referring to his mid-century works, which I've only briefly scanned. I've read more of his later works on art like Religion and Art. Is that what you're referring to?

>>	Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 04:37:18 2021 No.17802862 >>17802853 Yes and also The Artwork of the Future

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 04:54:10 2021 No.17802916 >>17802862 Yes to reading Religion and Art?

>>	Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed Mar 17 04:55:37 2021 No.17802922 >>17802916 Yes I’m referring to the work religion and art and also the ideas he shills in artwork of the future, they’re both very good and elaborate on the relationship of man with art and religion.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 04:59:27 2021 No.17802935 File: 550 KB, 1200x800, Paradiso XVIII.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>17787868 Mine. Sadly unpublished as yet, but with a following wind that will change this year.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 05:58:37 2021 No.17803090 >angloid shakespearefags and an attention-seeking tripfag enter the thread >biased seething anglos start interviewing the tripfag >tripfag is happy Thread ruined.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 05:59:41 2021 No.17803095 >>17784289 You stupid shit

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 06:01:01 2021 No.17803102 >>17784801 >Novatore The faggotry is unbecoming

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 08:50:45 2021 No.17803646 Bump

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 08:52:10 2021 No.17803659 >>17803646 Thank you for bumping. What's your favourite canto?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 17 08:55:20 2021 No.17803682 >>17787842 are you american?

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/lit/ - Literature