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/lit/ - Literature

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17703607 No.17703607[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>makes literature irrelevant in your path
How does /lit/ cope?

>> No.17703610

low quality bait, this is embarassing anon. there's still time to delete it though

>> No.17703620
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17703620

>>17703607
Videogames are not art and will never be , the lowest, least productive hobby a man can have, they are legos but unfortunately more socially acceptable.


Watch a film, read a book, faggot.

>> No.17703627
File: 42 KB, 434x640, Orson Welles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17703627

>>17703620
I HATE VIDEO GAMES SO DAMN MUCH! FUCK VIDYA AND FUCK THE MAN CHILDREN WHO PLAY THEM! AAAAAAAAH!

>> No.17703640

>>17703620
Hardly. You need a masters in litterary theory and a doctorate in philosophy to grasp the Kingdom Hearts series. Enjoy having been filtered by Donald Duck faggot.

>> No.17703651

>>17703620
Bad comparison, Legos are leagues more creative that video games though

>> No.17703656

>>17703607
>they hated him because he told the truth
Adapt or die faggots. Gen Z barely reads and gen alpha might not even be able to read at all. Nobody gives a shit about the wankfest definition of art or not art. All mediums are still mediums and one of them is dying much much faster than all the others while one of them is growing at an explosive rate.

>> No.17703678

>>17703607
Streamers made gaming irrelevant by now.

>> No.17703679
File: 715 KB, 1644x2034, SotCcoverPAL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17703679

>>17703620
>Videogames are not art and will never b......

>> No.17703682

>>17703620
There really is no way to coherently claim that video games aren't art but film and literature are.

>> No.17703699

>>17703620
I appreciate the relaxed state I get into from figuring out the patterns. But yeah, it's difficult to derive pleasure from it as a grown up, makes one feel vegetative.

>> No.17703712
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17703712

>>17703682
What seperates a video game from an animated film, what makes a video game a video game is the game mechanics and game mechanics are not art.
Video games can have artistic elements in them , art design, soundtracks, screenplays...etc but nevertheless are not art themselves.

Vidya in their purest form, stuff like Leaugue of Legends are clearly not art.

>> No.17703716

>>17703620
RDR2 was pretty good though.

>> No.17703722

>>17703712
>game mechanics are not art.
Cope

>> No.17703725

No medium can compete with the interactive nature of vidya.

>> No.17703732

>>17703712
People argued this when film was new too. I.e. they said film can't be art because of what's unique about film compared to earlier mediums.
You're just a coping boomer.

>> No.17703762
File: 415 KB, 1600x1288, temple-sequence-Babylon-Intolerance-DW-Griffith.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17703762

>>17703732
Nah, film was accepted as art almost insantanously. People like Griffith were considered great artists in their time and only contrarians disagreed.

By the time of Fellini, Film makers were considered members of the upper echelons of society and film was considered art of the highest order. Blockbusters and the degredation of Hollywood tarnished the reputation of cinema.

>> No.17703767

>>17703732
>People argued this when film was new too. I.e. they said film can't be art because of what's unique about film compared to earlier mediums.
This is blatantly untrue

>> No.17703771

>>17703620
Based. Fuck the manchildren seething itt

>> No.17703795

>>17703762
>>17703767
It's true. Movies that are now considered classics like Blade Runner were considered "kitsch" or "commercial", and this is long after the inception of the medium. Movies being grounded as art didn't even become a serious proposition until Citizen Kane. When it was new it had many detractors.
Anyway, any argument you make against video games being art can be 1:1 transcribed onto an analogous argument for movies not being art.

>> No.17703813

Video games are pathetic. You're not a man if you play with your cartoons all day. Hit the fucking squat rack and read some Aquinas.

>> No.17703902

>>17703795
You are seriously out of your depth here. The first art film was in 1913 and was called the Student of Prague. 1911 was arguably the first with L'Inferno. 1915 had Birth of a Nation, 1916 Intolerance, 1920 The Cabinet of Dr Caligari, and so on.
Film as a medium had low art origins but then was quickly utilized by proper artists very early.

>> No.17703923

>>17703902
This is an ad-hoc interpretation of the history and you know it.

>> No.17703925
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17703925

>> No.17703936

>>17703607
Here's a book to make the boomers seethe: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Videogames-Grant-Tavinor/dp/1405187883

>> No.17703945

>>17703620
Dark Souls
>exists
(and only the first one)

>> No.17703969

>>17703925
We didn't deserve him.

>> No.17704010

>>17703712
Here you go: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/digital-art/

>> No.17704043

>>17704010
Oops, meant to link to >>17703620.

>> No.17704148
File: 48 KB, 314x425, wernergraeff.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17704148

>>17703923
you're very misinformed. bauhaus artists and german expressionists were visualising art via film before they even had the technology to actualize it

>> No.17704165

>>17704148
>>17703923

the point being that artists were doing things with film from very early on. can you show me an equivalent for video games?

>> No.17704169

>>17703712
why do you think game mechanics can't be art? i thought the mechanics of death stranding were pretty good in how they related to the themes of connection. i'm not going to say every game is art but it seems close minded to say that video games as a medium are inherently not art.

>> No.17704175

>>17703936
To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers. That a game can aspire to artistic importance as a visual experience, I accept. But for most gamers, video games represent a loss of those precious hours we have available to make ourselves more cultured, civilized and empathetic.
—Roger Ebert

>> No.17704197

>>17704175
One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite [an] immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.
—Roger Ebert

>> No.17704217

How does this thread stay up for 30 replies, but the thread about video game addiction that actually discussed books got deleted? Is it because OP has the word literature in it and the jannies are too dumb to see through that, or is it that everyone who would report a thread like this has been asleep?

>> No.17704233

>>17704217
It will be gone soon enough.

>> No.17704235

>>17704217
what thread?

>> No.17704237

Nothing is "objecticely" art. Whether something is art depends on how you, the subject, relate to it.

>> No.17704239

>>17704175
>>17704197
Retarded boomer take

>> No.17704257

>>17703945
Bloodborne is better

>> No.17704258

>>17703607
>irrelevant in your path
You're looking at the wrong map.

>> No.17704273

>>17704175
>>17704197
>Ebert's arguments
Lol desperate aren't you? Nobody I know in academic aesthetics takes these arguments seriously, they're often cited as pop examples of bad arguments.

>> No.17704277

>>17704197
every video game, even the immersive sims and movie games, have rules, objectives, and outcomes.
and i've never seen any definition of a game that requires a points system other than ebert's.

>> No.17704298

Not interested in squabbling over the definition of art. The bottom line for me is that no game I've played has even approached the level of top-tier literature or film. Anything that aspires to a story or themes worthy of literature falls painfully short, more reminiscent of YA than Dosto.

>> No.17704306

>>17704148
Yeah bro just like anyone who questions the academic narrative of jazz always having been considered art music is "misinformed".
>>17704165
Deus Ex (had professional writers) and System Shock (many famous musicians worked on it) come to mind. Metal Gear was made by someone (i.e. Kojima) who was trained to be a movie director. If this is what you mean by "artists" (artists from other artforms).

>> No.17704308

>>17703620
Botw was a work of art desu. Only one Ive played so far

>> No.17704318

>>17704308
>Nintenkiddie is looking for confirmation

>> No.17704323

>>17703620
burnout 3: takedown is art
also gothic 1 & 2
& killer 7
also rez
& god hand
also system shock 2
& thief

>> No.17704332

>>17704318
Faggot

>> No.17704343

>>17704306
>trained to be a movie director
as far as i know he had no formal education. he grew up loving film but didn't know how to get into the industry so he became a game developer. i agree with your point though.

>> No.17704395

>>17703725
the "interactive nature" is exactly what makes it such a plebeian populist form of art in the first place, as it turns every consoomer into "experts" after they experience it only once.

>> No.17704413

Calling something art doesn’t give it validity or make it good regardless of whether it really is art or not

>> No.17704415

>>17704323
>games I liked to play when I was a bored teenager qualify as art
Fuck off.

>> No.17704421

>>17703716
rockstar has never written a game that wasn't sensationalized tarantino tier tripe desu. the gameplay is rarely ever engaging past the initial shock of being allowed to murder hookers on the street too.

>> No.17704429

>>17704343
I thought he went to film school but I might be mistaken.

>> No.17704432

The only games I can think of that had literary merit were Dark Souls and the Stanley Parable. Neither of which evoked the same emotions as reading or film, but had particular merit on their own.

>> No.17704435

>>17704010
>digital photographs are ontologically similar to plays and music because they consist of one display type, but multiple displays given subtle variances between the particular tokens.
Pure drivel.

>> No.17704461

>>17704257
dante's inferno with kitsch fantasy elements > gay and effeminate lovecraftian horror

>> No.17704467
File: 3.04 MB, 259x460, 1564050723399.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17704467

What even is art? Are sports art? Some are called martial arts. Are board games art? Chess sure would be but is Monopoly?

>> No.17704498

>>17703945
>(and only the first one)
dark souls 2 is a fun game in its own right but dark souls 3 has such a ridiculously trashy knightpunk aesthetic with terrible hollywood compositions blasting in your ear that it put me off the series forever.

>> No.17704521

>>17704467
perhaps sports can all be considered performance art

>> No.17704533

>>17704498
dark souls 3 was pure fanservice. a glorified bossrush.

>> No.17704544
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17704544

>>17704467
I think there's an interesting duality between games and 'art'. One can be artful in the sense of high skill/tallent/etc at an activity, but this sense of the word is inherently different than the sense of 'this painting is art or 'this has artistic merit''. A game can be just as moving as art. We have all seen basketball fans go rabid during the play offs. But I still don't think it's 'art' in the sense that we are trying to describe it. For a long while I thought of art as something without a tangible use. As in anything that is a tool isn't art. How could it be if a tool is used for something and art is for art sake? Games are structured to have goals and actions within them, a test of skill or smarts or what have you. The aspects of games we see as 'artistic' seem to never be the gameplay itself, it's always the surrounding assets. The graphics, the writing, the visuals, etc. The aspects of a game, that when deconstructed, are each traditional notions of art themselves, e.g. music, sculpture, painting, etc. Like, Dark Souls is lauded as an artistic game, but this isn't because of it's controls or difficulty, it's because of the atmosphere the graphics and writing create. It's a simple postmodernist writing tool of spreading out bits of information that make the reader put things together themselves.

I'm not really sure what the conclusion to such an esoteric definitional quandary is, but I guess it's neat to think about.

>> No.17704734

>>17703607
Fine by me, I prefer my hobbies to be obscure. That's exactly why I stopped playing games and started reading again.

>> No.17704759

>>17703607
Video games are for manchildren

>> No.17704792

>>17704461
Bloodborne goes above and beyond Lovecraft into pure literary kino. The entire main quest is to quell an alien baby's nightmare so that the mother can rest at peace. This is also the first time anybody has heard of this interpretation.

>> No.17704869

>>17703923
He is right, if you think that citizen kane was the beginning of film as an art form, you are embarrassingly incorrect

>> No.17704891

>>17704759
So are philosophy and non-fiction.

>> No.17704904
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17704904

>>17703712
>game mechanics are not art.

>> No.17705062

>>17703620
I would argue that older arcade games like Pac Man are somewhat worthy of being called art, and definitely moreso than modern cinematic "experiences."

With old arcade games the player has to study it's nuances like an instrument, and some are beautiful to look at like a (literally) moving modern art piece.

>> No.17705075

>>17703699
>But yeah, it's difficult to derive pleasure from it as a grown up, makes one feel vegetative.
Happened to me. I was convinced I would never get tired of video games and yet I can barely stomach them anymore.

>> No.17705345

>>17704891
Pseud

>> No.17705357

>>17703620
t. shit at games

>> No.17705370

>>17703712
>representative mechanics in painting
BASED
>representative mechanics in video games
CRINGE

>> No.17705454

>>17703620
Videogames are art, however, they had a short life span or rather zenith (circa. 1995 - 2012)

>> No.17705474
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17705474

>>17703607
Ill take the bait when your video Jew shows real depth or at least TRIES to be fun
>note: pay2win is not fun. Broken mechanics you write off as "get good" is not fun. Competition is not fun.
>Spooky skeletons jumping out of chests is not horror. Your shitty video games will never be able to recreate what goes on in the head of evil like CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters, nor narrate an uncaring void evil existence like Slaughterhouse Five

>Its all just slot machines and people yelling at each other striving to have some self value under a system the devs didn't even care enough to complete

>> No.17705512

>>17705474
>Competition is not fun.

Hahahahahahahaha

>> No.17705545

>>17703620
>implying film is art

>> No.17705580
File: 284 KB, 785x788, you.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17705580

>>17705357
>my only skillset is video games
>no I can't do complex mathematics or work a car engine

>> No.17705587

>>17705580
That's what I pay other people to do you poor nigger

>> No.17705595

>>17704792
>kino
shut the fuck up.

>> No.17705598
File: 112 KB, 825x591, 1576946149322.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17705598

ENOUGH OF YOUR NONSENSE
the truest and purest form of art is cooming. /gif/ is the most kino board on 4chan
COPE HARDER

>> No.17705607

>>17705587
that's because you're spiritually a woman at heart.

>> No.17705609

>>17705545
It is, manchild.

>> No.17705623

Not a single gamer here has read a non-genre fiction book in his life.

>> No.17705627

>>17705595
Screech more retard

>> No.17705647

>>17705623
gamers don't have tile to read, they need to spend 8 hours everyday on discord and freind simulator (twitch) and vtuber streams.


Gamers ard the scumo f the world and vidya are ruining society.

>> No.17705690

>>17705623
I'm pretty sure a good, relevant minority of them have read trash like the bell curve.
Still, feeling a stigma towards genre fiction makes you just as bad as they are.

>> No.17705696

>>17703607
Hurts movies more then literature.

>> No.17705708

>>17705690
>Still, feeling a stigma towards genre fiction makes you just as bad as they are.
Go back to /sffg/

>> No.17705730

>>17705708
Go back to /his/ first.

>> No.17706095

>>17705454
good take

>> No.17706099

>>17705607
What a bizarre thing to say

>> No.17706104

>>17704869
My film professor is embarrasingly incorrect?

>> No.17706125

>>17706104
And to be clear the claim was that CK established film as an artform. The films that anon cited are considered "forerunners" only in hindsight.

>> No.17706271
File: 32 KB, 328x499, 51vJq2cosZL._SX326_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17706271

>>17703722
Behold, the greatest work of literature in history!

>> No.17706327

>>17705598
This but unironically. Cooming is at the root of all and 90 percent of all entertainment would be coom based if not for religions and regulations purposely suppressing it because they know humans would do nothing but coom if there wasn't a reason not to.

>> No.17706342

>>17706271
Die: https://philpapers.org/rec/NGUGAA

>> No.17706383

>>17703620
Videogames were always art and always will be, the first great art of Ares and his attendants.

>>17705454
>Videogames stopped being art right before their next major artistic breakthrough, the First Person 4X game
No. Read icycalm.

>> No.17706387

>>17706125
i am going to make the citizen kane of games

>> No.17706429

>>17706342
By that argument, the rules/the game is not art in and of itself. Your interaction with it creates the art. A videogame is only art in the sense that a blank canvas is. This paper would also put watching a streamer as art on par with watching a play or movie.

>> No.17706437

>>17703620
This is outright incorrect. While I do stand that vidya is inferior to literature, film is far more inferior. Watching film is a passive activity, in most cases it does not require you to engage in any thought whatsoever. There is no interplay. Vidya, while still being easily accessible, requires at least some form of interaction and thought. Sadly these interactions are only superficial in most cases because there haven't been many attempts to make vidya anything more than just a toy, but I will always see movie watchers as the more miserable breed. Film is garbage.

>> No.17706438

>>17703607
This obvious bait hit 100 replies.

>> No.17706443

>>17706437
Retard. I guess painting aren't art either neither is Music.

>> No.17706446

>>17706443
They aren't.

>> No.17706455

>>17706446
All I needed to hear.

>> No.17706483

>>17706455
Anyway, shitposts aside, I do think film is inferior in that most movies are inferior. It's still an artform, but when compared to well regarded paintings and music, highly praised movies are usually more blatant and lacking in nuances. It's why oscar bait is so despised.

>> No.17706488

>>17706438
Obvious bait OPs are the best and sometimes only way to have an actual discussion on most boards.

>> No.17706508

>>17706483
>compared to well regarded paintings and music, highly praised movies are usually more blatant and lacking in nuances
Maybe, if your idea of an acclaimed film is Christopher Nolan.

>> No.17706547

>>17703640
you know very well he isn't referring to Kingdom Hearts, Persona series, or any of the select few games that have a modicum of value.
A vast majority of games have no redeemable value, they simply take up your time.

>> No.17706586

>>17703682
actually, in fact, due to the constraints and strengths of the video game medium, it's abundantly clear that they in large part prioritize "fun, addictive gameplay" and "immersive environments with high end graphics" and are less capable of conveying intelligent, thought provoking stories or address complex enriching topics to the same extent as film or literature.

As usual, there are exceptions. A few games stand as outliers to this generalization, but one cannot disregarding the facets of the video game medium that make it inherently trivial in story and generally lacking in complexity, and certainly inferior when compared to the mediums of film or literature.

>> No.17706599

>>17703607
gamers are spergs

>> No.17706731

>>17706547
i am surprised that anybody other than me considers kingdom hearts valuable.

>> No.17706767

>>17706586
>A few games stand as outliers to this generalization, but one cannot disregarding the facets of the video game medium that make it inherently trivial in story and generally lacking in complexity, and certainly inferior when compared to the mediums of film or literature.
One can argue the same about contemporary literature

>> No.17706888

>>17706767
Sure, contemporary literature could be described as such. But the medium in its entirely more than justified the claim that it is supremely more adept at telling complex, enriching stores than video games, of which only a handful can be considered somewhat valuable through that lens.

>> No.17706986

>>17703620
If only vidya found its footing instead of copying movies all the time. Imagine if movies stayed in the stage play format, that's basically what games are doing, not being their own thing

>> No.17707124

>>17706986
good take, although i would argue many indies today are good at establishing the medium on its own footing

>> No.17707158

>>17706986
>If only vidya found its footing instead of copying movies all the time
It did though, as early as the 80's. Videogames have their own genres that don't match the genres of movies.

>> No.17707162

>>17706888
Nice trips
It could be that the medium is higly restrictive, or that it's being restricted by retarded coomsoomerism (again, like nowadays lit). How can you tell which one is to blame?

>> No.17707184

>>17703607
Just art in general made lit relevant to the masses

>> No.17707207

>>17703712
I'm going to die on this hill with this anon, and double down by saying the reason video games are mostly shit these days is because it keeps confusing itself with art. I don't play video games to become inspired by some half assed story that was tacked on at the last second, I play video games to play a fucking game that's on the fucking video. If I want to enjoy a story I read a book. Lit is art, games are games, simple as that.

>> No.17707479

>>17705474
sauce on this pic?

>> No.17707487
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17707487

I am a pseud who only has experience with video games and anime, but still post on /lit/ trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about

>> No.17707517

>>17707487
(You)
No shit

>> No.17707576

>>17707479
nvm got it its Nephrite

>> No.17707671

>>17704432
something like Stanely Parable is more interactive fiction/art than a 'game'

>> No.17707687

>>17707671
Define the difference between 'interactive fiction/art' and 'game.'

>> No.17707783

>>17704544
in dark souls the gameplay complements the atmosphere, you feel lonely and defendless faced with a harsh world (at least on first playthroughs) through the mechanics of which the game is built on

>> No.17707827

Windows XP is art

>> No.17707906

Videogames are not art, they are games.
Saying videogames are like art because they have art in them is like saying a puzzle slider is art because it has a picture of the Mona Lisa as it's completed state.

>> No.17707940

>In a 2006 interview with US Official PlayStation 2 Magazine, game designer Hideo Kojima agreed with Ebert's assessment that video games are not art. Kojima acknowledged that games may contain artwork, but he stressed the intrinsically popular nature of video games in contrast to the niche interests served by art. Since the highest ideal of all video games is to achieve 100% player satisfaction whereas art is targeted to at least one person, Kojima argued that video game creation is more of a service than an artistic endeavor.[

>> No.17707945

>>17707940
Kojima once again saving the industry.

>> No.17708046

Sometimes I wonder if /lit/ acts like brainlets on purpose.

>> No.17708342

>>17707487
>>17707517
You guys gotta understand that trying to merge both games and art will only make both worse. For example I included both video games and art in my argument and it made it shit.

>> No.17708382

>>17706387
That's the last of us.

>> No.17708441

>>17707906
Video games aren't really games

>> No.17708477

>>17703607
I can't play anything for more than a hour without getting bored.

>> No.17708484

>>17707906
>Saying videogames are like art because they have art in them is like saying a puzzle slider is art because it has a picture of the Mona Lisa as it's completed state.
Nonsense analogy. KYS

>> No.17708494

>>17703620
POV: You think Call of Duty are the only video games.

>> No.17708570

>>17703620
>art
>hobby

>> No.17708636

>>17708477
That just means that you're not a virgin. My interest in vidya dropped to zero after I got laid.

>> No.17708651

>>17708441
Yes they are.

>>17708484
Nice argument retard.

>> No.17708666

>>17708651
No they're not. Sorry it inconveniences your argument but you gotta do better bitch

>> No.17708672

>>17708666
If they're not games, what are they?

>> No.17708689

>>17708672
Evil
I would legitimately be less disappointed if my son was a heroin addict than a (((gamer)))

>> No.17708691

>>17708689
Based

>> No.17708781

>>17703923
retard

>> No.17708808

>>17708672
They're their own thing. Games typically involve multiple players. But now multiple player video games are e-sports

>> No.17708838

>>17703656
>gen alpha wont be able to read

Nigger what is english class

>> No.17708855

>>17707940
Yeah I feel like games are just a "thing to do" for example you can play multiplayer games as a means to socialize. They may not be high art but you can have some fun and memorable times with them.

>> No.17709036

>>17703620
Based. a brighter summer day is kino af

>> No.17709141

>>17703610
Fpbp