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17691733 No.17691733 [Reply] [Original]

Refute Stoicism.
I bet you cant.

>> No.17691738

Inb4 Nietzsche

>> No.17691740

"No."

>> No.17691774

>>17691733
its like buddhism. its not all wrong but its not right about everything

>> No.17691803

>>17691774
>its not all wrong but its not right about everything
-genius mcbigbrain

>> No.17691815

>>17691774
>>17691803
lmao

>> No.17691895

>>17691733
Its an especially contrived and sad way of not being able to find meaning in the midst of your suffering. Its doctrine is toxic to the human spirit and only appeals to confused bugmen. Go out outside and love in fall and stare into the beauty of the sunset anon. Stop waking up at 6 AM

>> No.17691901
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17691901

>>17691733
Oh stop

>> No.17691922
File: 400 KB, 720x556, nietzsche stoicism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17691922

>>17691738
>try to BTFO stoicism
>come up with amor fati

Eternal recurrence is a way of justifying stoicism but with an added and pretentious layer of cope

>> No.17691926
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17691926

I was just thinking how difficult it is to truly be a Stoic, or to follow any philosophy to its full extent in all of your actions and thoughts. Is that even possible?

Has there EVER been ANYONE who has embodied their chosen philosophy 100%? The only people that come to mind are religious figures, maybe Socrates? Is it even something you can choose to do? Do you actually have control over what philosophy will drive your actions and thoughts or is that all just inate and subconscious?

>> No.17691936

>>17691733
his son

>> No.17691962

>>17691922
I'm pretty sure they do live in accordance with indifference Neet, did you actually read Epictetus or did you have another headache? Like indifferences to life and death. I think he is misunderstanding what it means to live in accordance with nature. Stoics were very aware of meaninglessness.

>> No.17691975

>>17691962
Indifference is a sweet little lie the Stoics tell themselves so they can sleep more soundly.

>> No.17691988

>>17691975
It's a pretty valid conclusion. why wouldn't they believe it?

>> No.17691995

>>17691988
Anything can be made valid with proper thickheadedness.

>> No.17692002

>>17691926
If you establish a school of thought within philosophy that states "I do what I want", then you always are matching it perfectly.
Also Diogenes was pretty good about sticking to Cynicism at every opportunity.

>> No.17692008

>>17691995
whatever chomo

>> No.17692015

>>17692002
oh yeah, I forgot about Dio.
>"I do what I want"
I guess that's a good starting point but it's not very robust. How does one decide what they want?

>> No.17692016

>>17691733
Simply put, stoic indifference is life-denying, it's about building a wall to protect yourself against all feelings, it's a retreat, it's cowardness in the face of the fascinating and infinite kaleidoscope of reality. It's very similar to buddhism in this regard.
The alternative to stoicism is embrasing all of those feelings and experiencinging them fully, affirming them, opening yourself up for reality, taking it head on and participating in the game of power with all of your will, if just for the lulz.
Where stoicism is masturbation, nietzscheanism is sex tourism.

>> No.17692022

>>17692015
>How does one decide what they want?
You'll know it when you do it. That feeling of fulfillment after creating something truly beautiful is not confusable with anything else.

>> No.17692040

>>17692015
>How does one decide what they want?
They don't. Your wants decide what you do. If you do nothing with such a philosophy, it's because you have no wants, you're effectively soulless.

>> No.17692045

>>17692016
What if you just don't find it fascinating. Plenty of people don't, look around.

>> No.17692046

>>17692016
t.someone who has never read a book on stoicism

>> No.17692058

>>17692045
Stop masturbating for 90 days.

>> No.17692067

>>17692022
That's not what i mean you dork. I'm talking about all Wants. Not fulfillment it creating something beautiful I dont know where you got that from. Please consider the people reading your posts and at least attempt to make sense.

>> No.17692068

>>17692046
Does Meditations count?

>> No.17692069

>>17691926
they're probably just describing themselves

>> No.17692085

>>17692040
Ok so then I was right that you can't choose your life philosophy and that it comes from subconscious 'wants'. So you can't just claim your philosophy is 'i do what I want' because your wants decide what philosophy you want not yourself.

>> No.17692090

>>17692085
>So you can't just claim your philosophy is 'i do what I want' because your wants decide what philosophy you want not yourself.
No because that's not the philosophy. The philosophy is properly understood as "I do according to my wants" and by following your subconscious wants you are exercising that philosophy.

>> No.17692100

>>17692068
even if you read med. its not even fundamentally true that its life denying. its simply saying you can only affrct what you can effect and there in no use worrying over what you cannot. you can control some shit and cant others. its about doing what you can in the moment abd storming what may. i can see how people might not agree with it from a purely epistemological level, but i would hardly call the tenets life denying.

>> No.17692113

>>17692090
Alright, but it's still a lame technicality answer.

>> No.17692129

>>17692100
People say it's life denying because they equate superfluous reactions to externals as living life.

>> No.17692138

>>17692100
You can't affect weather, therefore according to Med. you ought not to enjoy a cool breeze on a sunny day.

>> No.17692143

>>17691733
>Refute living in accordance with the natural laws and adjusting your lifestyle to maximize your own joy within them
>I bet you cant.
You're right, I can't. Stoicism is such a flexible philosophy, it can't really be refuted.

>> No.17692146

>>17691975
>people become indifferent for the benefits of being indifferent
yeh, basically

>> No.17692148

>>17692138
Does bad weather make you cry? Why not?

>> No.17692164

>>17692148
No, quite contrary - I embrace bad weather so that I can embrace good weather later, and vice versa. I understand the nature of weather and what causes it, and I align myself fully with it, neither enjoying or despising it, but being one with it.

>> No.17692168

>>17692146
Which makes Stoic indifference a lie and an absurdity to boot.

>> No.17692182

>>17692168
It's exactly the same with buddhism. People become 'indifferent' so that they can avoid pain and consequently feel pleasure, but seeking pleasure is not indifference, so stoicism and buddhism are internally contradictory.
Nietzsche, on the other hand, wears his 'will to power' on his sleave, avoiding the contradiction.

>> No.17692202

>>17692164
>Neither enjoying or despising it
So you don't enjoy a cool breeze on a sunny day?

>> No.17692206

>>17692202
I do but no more than I enjoy rain or snow or whatever.

>> No.17692216

>>17692182
Wrong. You are saying the absence of perceived pain is pleasure? That's ridiculous. Stoics don't seek pleasure that doesn't even make sense. That's not the point at all. A stoic sage or some buddhist monk dont seek pleasure or pain dumbass.

>> No.17692217

>>17692216
>You are saying the absence of perceived pain is pleasure? That's ridiculous.
>t. never tried opioids

>> No.17692221

>>17692206
Stop contradicting yourself

>> No.17692223

>>17692216
The unconscious motive behind seeking indifference is undoubtedly a form of pleasure in the Stoic. Same with the Buddhist. Not who you replied to.

>> No.17692229

The novel Stoner is a great exploration and critique of stoicism. A pure stoic will never ever attain true happiness and never accomplish anything substantial. Stoicism inspires mediocrity and encourages lassitude, discourages heroic action.

>> No.17692235

>>17692168
in what way? are you saying you can't choose to be indifferent?

>> No.17692267

>>17692223
That's a huge leap that can only be made with shear stupidity. You can just assign a motive to people like that.
>Undoubtedly
Jesus kid stop being so arrogant.

>> No.17692288

>>17692267
>That's a huge leap
What's a huge leap is thinking that any animal, humans included, is not chiefly concerned with the fulfillment of its own interests.

>> No.17692305

>>17691926
If I recall correctly, Stoicism postulates that you will never attain the title of Sage (in Stoic connotation), but you should still nonetheless strive to become one.

>> No.17692307

>>17692288
God damn you are dumb. Stop using words that have ambiguous philosophical meaning and basing your entire point on them.
What are my interests O wise one? How do I fullfill them?
Maybe my interests as a conscious human is the sanctity if my virtue and soul. Maybe it is my interest to not let externals influence my soul.

>> No.17692313

>>17692305
Exactly the same with buddhism (s/sage/buddha/), and christianity (s/sage/saint), by the way.

>> No.17692320

>>17692307
>ambiguous philosophical meaning
What's ambiguous there?

>Maybe my interests as a conscious human is the sanctity if my virtue and soul. Maybe it is my interest to not let externals influence my soul.
Whatever they are, you aren't indifferent, even in your so called "indifference." That's what makes it a lie and an absurdity.

>> No.17692341

>>17692320
interests are ambiguous, stop being dense.
Why are you so confident that people cant be indifferent to externals? Youre projecting. Try to not be so narrow minded. It's a logical path to follow that is laid out very simply by epictetus. You didn't actually read epictetus? Yeah, I figured.

>> No.17692342

>>17691895
>its another "stoicism means you dont get to enjoy anything" episode
getting real tired of these re-runs /lit/

>> No.17692348

>>17691975
>indifference towards something means you arent losing sleep over it
yes? is this supposed to be a bad thing and some sort of scathing remark?

>> No.17692384

>>17692341
>Why are you so confident that people cant be indifferent to externals?
Why are you so confident that animals can possess a godlike quality such as total indifference towards itself? No animal has that power. We're all pursuing our interests, and this means we aren't indifferent, especially not as a state of being.

>>17692348
It just means that Stoicism has nothing to do with truth. I'm not saying to not believe in it, but don't ask questions like "can you refute it?" when it contains nothing refutable or irrefutable.

>> No.17692421
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17692421

>>17692143
Unfathomably based

>> No.17692447

>>17692384
I think the ideas that are "refutable or irrefutable" could be the conclusions it makes about how best to approach certain aspects of the human experience, like whether or not its best to be indifferent and stop losing sleep over things beyond your ability to control, or how to approach the relationship between indulgence and mental fulfillment and well being, a debate the rise of nihilism and end of christian morality has brought to the forefront in our era

>> No.17692469

Neoplatonism

>> No.17692658

>>17692447
Christianity is nihilism.

>> No.17692714

>>17691733
no thank you i would rather spend the time eating the spaghetti my mum cooked this evening

>> No.17692753

Reading a lot of Anons who don't get that pleasure under stoicism exists although it's almost limited to knowledge gathering and enjoying arts and nature.

The stoics arje was fire, and they venerated pyr teknikos a form of artistic fire where artistic inspiration as well as technology were supposed to originate.

Seneca's dialogues invite the reader to enjoy things as long as they are healthy (according to one's nature) but keeping in mind that any form of happiness not originating from oneself can disappear at any moment. Thus, one must be mentally prepared for when the source of that enjoyment disappears. In his opinion, that should be enough to not mourn its loss.

Sometimes similar applies to negative feelings as can be read on his Consolations. The stoic sage feels sadness and cries when his child is killed, but since he already knew the kid would die at some point, the loss doesn't consume him.

>> No.17692781

there's nothing to refute it's a self help """philosophy""" that has nothing to do with truth (just give you ways to think about life so that you don't kill yourself)
literally jordan peterson tier

>> No.17692803

>>17691962
Extremely based.

>> No.17692808

>>17691975
The only people who don't like sleep are incels.

>> No.17692813

>>17691926
Seneca

>> No.17693672

>>17692753
Based

>> No.17693780

>>17692217
opioids both numb pain and provide pleasure. It is possible to numb pain without providing pleasure (anesthesia) and possible to provide pleasure without numbing pain (cock n ball torture)

>> No.17693859

>>17691895
>Stop waking up at 6 AM
I can't, I can't get to my job in time otherwise.

>> No.17693882

>>17692223
>undoubtedly a form of pleasure
but it's not. And stoics don't avoid pain, either. You're understanding of stoicism is cringe and redditpilled

>> No.17693900

Good practices but it's purpose and end is wrong.

Virtue for the sake of virtue is wrong

>> No.17693905

>>17692781
It's ethics you fucking retard not self help. Ask me how I know you are a pseud.

>> No.17693954

>if you are not mad about thing, thing can't make you mad
i agree OP, literally unrefutable

>> No.17693972

>>17691926
Pyrrho would have died a couple times over from sheer skepticism if his friends didn't stop him. That's about as close as you can get to 100%.

>> No.17694753

>>17693882
There is pleasure even in pain, your understanding of pleasure is shallow

>> No.17694879

>>17694753
>There is pleasure even in pain
never said anything that would contradict this
>your understanding of pleasure is shallow
based on?

>> No.17694929

Guess what nerds. I'm a stoic and nothing you do or say can stop me.

>> No.17694967

>>17694879
>never said anything that would contradict this
I wonder why you would bring up that Stoics don't avoid pain then

>> No.17695059

>>17692753
this

>> No.17695064

>>17694967
because a few posts earlier you (or whoever) said here >>17692182
>people become indifferent so they can avoid pain
I'm well aware that they are not opposites, as I state here >>17693780

>> No.17695083

>>17695064
Ah. That's someone else. I agree that Stoics don't avoid pain. I don't agree that their "indifference" is truly indifference though.

>> No.17695137

>>17691926
Pyrrho literally almost walked on a raging river, and killed himself in various menial ways people of his time took for granted, if not for his followers who keep an eye from a distance (Timon of Phlyius). If that is not the exemplar of a true skeptic, I don't know what is

>> No.17695216

>human nature

>> No.17695236

>>17692143
>>Refute living in accordance with the natural laws and adjusting your lifestyle to maximize your own joy within them
>maximize your own joy
>joy
I can't even... that's not even remotely close stoicism

>> No.17695275

>>17695083
yeh, it's not. that's why I called your understanding of stoicism cringe and redditpilled. But I guess I confused you with another poster

>> No.17695282

>>17692138
What absolute nonsense. Sometimes the pseudery of you faggots is too much.

>> No.17696618

>>17692016
The modern world is feminine shit.

>> No.17696642

>>17691733
The fact that all stoics ended up being failures which achieved nothing is enough to refute them.

>> No.17696678

>>17696642
those pitiful roman emperors

>> No.17696721

>>17696678
literally destroyed the empire

>> No.17696758

>>17691733
There is nothing to refute, it’s a personal life philosophy

>> No.17696836

>>17696642
>ended up being failures
I don't think they care bro.

>> No.17696975

>>17696721
it was outside their control anyway. no point getting worked up over things you can't change.

>> No.17696985

>>17696642
>reject standard measures of value
>be unsuccessful when judged by standard measures of value
how could this possibly happen?!

>> No.17697023

Simple.

"Why?"

A stoic doesn't have an answer to the ultimate 'Why' of doing anything. At best it is 'to be in line with nature' or 'to suffer uniquely as a human being' or something along those lines. But there is no true call to something grander.

Christianity takes the best of Stoicism and also gives the ultimate 'Why'.

>> No.17697099

>>17697023
The "Why?" is a spectrum. Sometimes it's good to fight injustice, aberrant practices, etc. Sometimes, it's fruitless to fight nature's course.

>> No.17697132

>>17697099
No it isn't. 'Why' is an absolution question that leads to an absolute answer, which is God.

>> No.17697142

>>17697132
*absolute.

>> No.17697189

>>17692143
you're thinking of Epicureanism, friendo

>> No.17697257

>>17692138
Thats not how it works. why are you retarded? Its about not feeling responsibility or obsessing on things that are out of your control, you can enjoy something without obsessing and trying to control what you cannot. and once you can control it, congrats, do that if you will.

Its about not jerking off to a mistake you did and wallowing in it to a debilitating and degree. learn what you can from it and move on. likewise, if you had a pleasant breeze enjoy what you can of it, and move on. why are you a nigger?

>> No.17697294

>>17691926
Diogenes

>> No.17697357

>>17696721
Marcus Aurelius managed to live enough to die from natural causes, which was super rare for roman emperors

>> No.17697384

stoicism is bitch made
just give up lmfao
reddit kids and litfitbizpolr9k niggers use it as self help

>> No.17698066

>>17693905
it is literally no different from self help

>> No.17698076

>>17698066
Neetchean redditors seething

>> No.17698088

>>17691901
Epicurus died a stoic death. Seneca discusses this.

>> No.17698097

>>17698076
thanks for the downvote

>> No.17698117

>>17691922
Nietzsche was literally the most Earth Mother worshipping retard in existence, he never wanted to properly investigate metaphysics so he ended up bound to the earth like an animal, atleast the Overman has a glimmer of solar vitality or else he'd have no distinguishing contrast with the other fedora materialist animals.