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/lit/ - Literature

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17638127 No.17638127 [Reply] [Original]

We are all familiar with the fable of Heaven and Hell, if only because it has been bashed over our heads the last few days in this board. However, since a man's will is simply not his at all, it being determined by external entities, and since he as a result commits sin purely by accident and out of ignorance, for even Good and Evil was considered an object of knowledge (coming out of a tree), it can only be seen as vainglorious and cruel of the Lord to condemn us to eternal damnation for a situation completely out of our control.

Note that entrances to heaven and hell are determined by the condition of the soul in the individual or whatever, and therefore can be seen as a type of response to that condition. It has been dictated by the lord that those who have sinned will go to hell and suffer eternal damnation, and, contrariwise, those who have never sinned will reach heaven and eternal salvation. so we need to ask the question; what does the Lord hope to achieve through Heaven and Hell? Justice as being defined as doing good to dogooders and harm to wrongdoers has already been refuted by Plato in the first book of his Republic. Hell, clearly, cannot make people more Just, just as much as kicking a dog can teach him to stand, and heaven can't make people more Just either, for heaven is already only accessible to the perfectly Just. Their existences are completely redundant.

Of course, I don't posit any of this forcefully and dogmatically. I am simply voicing my ideas about this topic.

>> No.17638151

Why do you assume mankind does not have free will

>> No.17638161

>>17638127
God doesn't condemn anyone to eternal damnation. great schizo rambling thought

>> No.17638231

>>17638151
As a universal, freedom exists within anarchy and chaos, or the absence of order. Yet the universe itself is a preordained harmony and perfect order. Beyond an apparent possibility is an absolute certainty.

Concerning the will itself and its nature, it can never be free. For willing is a type of activity, and all activities pursue a certain end - thereby all activites are ordered by that end. Again, Plato was correct to describe the spirited part of the soul the part which expressed no volition in itself, but always sides with either the body or the mind.

>> No.17638239

>>17638161
>God doesn't condemn anyone to eternal damnation
So why the fear of hell in the first place if it is only a temporary circumstance?

>> No.17638413
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17638413

>>17638127
NOOOOOOO YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO CRITICISE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEFS.

>> No.17638473
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17638473

>>17638127
extremely based post

>> No.17638534

>>17638127
Hell is not eternal punishment; it is annihilation. Heaven is life free from death. They are not responses to any condition within an individual. He who is united with the creator and sustainer of life is in Heaven(Life free from Death) and he who is not goes to Hell (Annihilation). When a leaf is separated from a tree, it withers and dies. When humans are separated from the creator and sustainer of life, they also wither and die. Why question one but not the other?

>> No.17638543

>>17638534
*who is not is in Hell

>> No.17638797

>>17638534
What is a life without death worth?

>> No.17638811

Free will and a benevolent God are mutually exclusive.
Hell is infinite punishment for finite sins.

>> No.17638878

>>17638797
that's up to you too decide, though I urge you to really think about what your asking and not use mindless platitudes to shutdown any cognitive dissonance.

>> No.17638900

>>17638127
You can't know the mind of God, all allegories from the bible are attempts at best to demonstrate his character. This is the point of God entering the material world as Jesus.

>> No.17638990

>>17638900
First of all, I do not like your implication, when you talk about 'mind of god' and 'character of god', that god was a composite being. Secondly, I do not like your attitude and the way you try to handwave my attempt at understanding god by calling god incomprehensible. Thirdly, I do not like christianity and christians, because they push nonsense like the idolatry of Jesus Christ, idolatry of the cross, the holy trinity, heaven and hell and the aforementioned incomprehensibility of God. Nietzsche was right to call it slavish.

>> No.17639028

>>17638990

1. As with the allegories I am referring to, when I refer to the 'character of God' I am also just doing the best I can with language to describe a metaphysical concept.

2. You cannot "understand" God epistemically, that's what metaphysics are for.

I understand this probably isn't what you wanted to hear, sorry about that.

>> No.17639260

>>17639028
The understanding of god falls under the purview of metaphysics, or do you think metaphysics is mere conjecture?

>> No.17640076

>>17638239
Even if you are not there forever, it is better to avoid it if you can

>> No.17640104

I would 100% grab her booba. She won't be able to kill me before I cop a feel.

>> No.17640159
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17640159

>>17638127
>it can only be seen as vainglorious and cruel of the Lord to condemn us to eternal damnation for a situation completely out of our control
What do you expect from a jealous sand god? And it is worth noting that the early Jews had no conception of an afterlife: their sand god was to punish or reward them in this life. As pointed out by Uriel da Costa, there is no biblical evidence for the existence of an immortal soul in the Old Testament.
>Justice as being defined as doing good to dogooders and harm to wrongdoers has already been refuted by Plato
As if the opinion of a filthy pagan had any bearing on Judaeo-Christian delusion.

We must appreciate John Calvin's honesty, as he accepts double predestination and at the same time claims we are morally responsible of our actions. He candidly accept this paradox as a dogma beyond our human reason. He is a perfect example of Judaeo-Christian delusion becoming self-aware.

>> No.17640259

>>17638127
You have a poor grasp on Christianity if this is your take. Would unironically recommend reading the bible, rather than other books concerning the faith, if you're wanting to develop a more informed view.

>> No.17640281

>>17640159
>early Jews
You lump them together in one tribe. In fact the early Jews were varied in beliefs.

>> No.17640434

no one knows bro

>> No.17640457

>>17640434
Productive post.
bro.

>> No.17640482

>>17638127
>a man's will is simply not his at all, it being determined by external entities
Im skeptical.

>> No.17640528

>>17638231
>all activities pursue a certain end
And by end we know it must mean GOOD. One who wills The Good wills Freedom, however it is not by simply willing it that one wills freely but it is the realization of The Good that makes us will it freely (consciously) not impulsively, the former chooses plainly, the latter conditionally.

>> No.17640567

>>17640159
Then I urge you to explain Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 26:19, Psalm 49:15, Daniel 12:1-3, Genesis 5:24.

>> No.17640743

>>17640528
>realization of The Good that makes us will it freely
>makes us will it freely
>makes us
>freely
You understand what you are talking about.

>> No.17640988

>>17640743
You know what I meant. The Good does not force anything on us, it still gives us the opportunity to choose it and having the possibility to reject it and choose evil, otherwise it would not be Good.

>> No.17641184

>>17640988
If a person realizes the Good, he will never choose evil - it is impossible. The will is thereby subject to the Good. Indeed, if a person could decide against the Good, then why call it Good at all?

>> No.17641318

>>17638127
Is she this erection inducing in the manga?

>> No.17641341

>>17641184
The will will always seek that wherein it finds rest, so to speak. This was the propose of our creation, to know and choose God and do it freely. And here is where our direction of this will comes to the fore. As you said earlier about the spirited part of or soul siding either with mind or body it can be understood in the same way. Before you are “made” to choose the Good, you turn your will and thoughts toward it willingly, freely.
Anyhow discussions about free will and determinism will always be sterile and futile since both of them are real but in different degrees of reality. There will always be necessary restrictions in a conditioned realm, however there will still be room for willed agency within them, this is what free will consists of, choosing between this or that and free will by no means is absolute freedom, the latter can only be achieved in the synergy with the Spirit (yes it is paradoxical just as we are both different and the same in relation to the Divine in communion).

>> No.17641357 [DELETED] 
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17641357

>>17638127
Seek help or ngmi
https://youtu.be/PVrjozFHCr4
https://youtu.be/9YLHrCzNQts
https://youtu.be/lyjJ99ipXqw

>> No.17641404

>>17641341
I'm not going to greentext your post again, but I assure you that you have once again demonstrated that you understand what you are talking about.

>> No.17641411
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17641411

>>17638127

I.
We must by necessity lie in the murky regions of free will, for our own sake. It may be very heavily untrue, but we must fight to retain this notion- arguably the greatest and most delicate invention of thought. Do not deny the will.

II.
Your notion of Christianity is absolutely wrong and uniformed. But don't fear. Christianity is only vice. Christianity is only the soiled hide of the herd animal. Unbased.

>>17641318
Yes.

>> No.17641416
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17641416

>>17638413

>> No.17641459

>>17641404
Your only argument was against an expression I used. Will is a necessary conditioning of thought, realizing the Good presupposes an agency toward it, it does not matter if the Good literally ‘makes’ one always choose it (as if it were possible). For being Good It will never annihilate one’s own will. You should read about the Leontius tale from the Republic.

>> No.17642686
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17642686

>>17638127
Evil is a prerequisite of what can be termed the 'absolute good' of free will.

Why does no one read Schelling?

>> No.17643430

bump

>> No.17643980

>>17641416
r/Christianity tourist here to post his reddit memes

>> No.17644024

>>17638231
>Yet the universe itself is a preordained harmony and perfect order.

Doubt it.