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/lit/ - Literature

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17625659 No.17625659 [Reply] [Original]

>> No.17625667

>>17625659
Scriabin - Poem of Ecstasy

>> No.17625750

>>17625659
You can just tell he fucked. Probably young chicks as well. He has that "damn right she's 17" face.

>> No.17625780

>>17625750
Didn't painters always pretty people up in their portraits so that their customers pay them better?

>> No.17625804

>>17625780
>collar over his jacket
>3 buttons upon
I'm telling you he fucked.

>> No.17625824

The Struggle with the Daemon, Zweig

>> No.17627160

the Satyricon desu

>> No.17627177

>>17625667
based

>> No.17627205

Dionysian Dithyrambs my guys

>> No.17627316
File: 417 KB, 1369x1897, Wilhelm Richard Wagner.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17627316

>>17625659
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3mJ8c76O3o

>> No.17627433

>>17625659
Based Hölderlin reader

>> No.17627606

>>17627316
Realistically, Holderlin was more important than Wagner.

>> No.17627615

>>17625659
Birth of Tragedy

>> No.17627650

>>17625659
In Germany dating back to Luther there is a national feeling of romantic irrationality. If you read Holderlin, Nietzsche, Heidegger or listen to Wagner, you can literally trace the irrational, emotional, grandiose German world-feeling which resulted in Nazism. Not saying those individuals were responsible for it but you can literally hear Nazism in Wagner's music or read it in Nietzsche's prose. It's right in there with all of its grandiose banality.

>> No.17627662

>>17627650
Same for the Greeks, it's not Romantic puffery, it's an objective difference which makes their people special.

>> No.17627712

does anyone actually understand his poetry? i read it and it made no sense to me

>> No.17628066

What's so important about Holderlin?

Heidegger literally says that the future of being directly depends upon a dealing with Holderlin (and only Germany as a nation is capable of it). Or the only choice left to us is how we deal with impending death.

>> No.17628110

>>17628066
>Heidegger literally says that the future of being directly depends upon a dealing with Holderlin (and only Germany as a nation is capable of it). Or the only choice left to us is how we deal with impending death.

TOP fucking KEK. Are these people not self-conscious, are they incapable of self-reflection? Like, you're embarrassing yourself, you're writing a thing that could easily be a parody.

>> No.17628161

I actually have very little exposure to holderlin, besides books shilling for him and a stray poem and analysis.

Where’s a good place to begin? What to read? What translations are best?

>> No.17628400

>>17628110
Yeah but he uses bigger words and stretches it over a longer period of time so it's a serious philosophical opinion.

>> No.17628469
File: 336 KB, 1496x2044, Rousseau, Henri - 20.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17628469

>>17628161
Unfortunately, I only know Hölderlin in German, so I can't recommend any translations. As for secondary literature, it depends on what interests you. For a philosophical interpretation you should of course get Heidegger. For a theological interpretation, the books by Romano Guardini. Wilhelm Waiblinger was a friend of Hölderlin and wrote a biographical essay. The Germanist Groddeck has written some readable analyses of Hölderlin's poems. If you want to be autistic, you can get the book Hölderlin's Rhythmus by Boris Previsic. It deals with the question of how "free" Hölderlin's free verse really was. The author then tries to prove, quite convincingly, that the free verse consist of fragments of ancient Greek verse forms, which are assembled by Hölderlin into a kind of metrical meta-language, which underlay the words with another level of meaning. That book is only for people who understand german, though.

>> No.17629002

>>17628469
Put it as crudely as you like (as I know a response can always be helpful), but what is something you derived from Holderlin's poetic vision?

>> No.17629795

>>17625667
Too shallow for Holderlin.

>> No.17629806

>>17628469
Thanks anon, while I’ll look into the names you said, my first interest is always approaching the text itself. I would also be interested to hear the insights you’ve gained from his model and how they significantly differ from hegel, Schiller, schelling, goethe etc

>> No.17629897

>>17628469
woah did Romano Guardini really write on Holderlin? This is surprisingly good, are you aware of the work in english?

>> No.17631137

>>17629897
Guardini has written two books on Hölderlin (Hölderlin: World View and Piety & Form and Meaning of Landscape in the Poems of Hölderlin). Also a book on Dostoevsky (Man and Faith. An Experiment Concerning Religious Existence in Dostoevsky's Great Novels) and a book on Rilke (On Rainer Maria Rilke's Interpretation of Existence). They all seem to be available only in German.

>> No.17631247

>>17625804
fuck off retard

>> No.17631375

>>17629002
>>17629806
I am uneducated when it comes to philosophy and cold-hearted when it comes to poetry – I don't want to tell you any nonsense. Which is why I am probably the wrong person to give an exposition of Hölderlin's poetic vision and his otherness from Goethe, Schiller, Schelling and Hegel. I cannot penetrate his theoretical writings. They are too condensed and packed with pregnant words. I could only talk superficially about his works of art.

The motto he placed at the beginning of his Hyperion novel is perhaps revealing of a phase or tendency in Hölderlin:

Non coerceri maximo,
contineri minimo, divinum est.
(Unbounded by the utmost,
enclosed in the least, that is divine.)

And the following passage from the earliest version of the Hyperion novel is perhaps revealing as well. I picked it more or less at random and translated it. The ulterior motive being that you will learn more about Hölderlin from hearing one of his characters speak, than from me reciting abstract stuff:

>We sang sacred songs about things that are, about things that live on in a thousand different forms, about things that were and are and will be, about the inseparability of the spirits, and how they have been one from the beginning and always will be, no matter how much night and clouds divide them, and all eyes were filled with the feeling of this kinship and immortality. I had changed into someone else altogether. Let the passing pass, I shouted among the zealots, it passes in order to return, it ages in order to rejuvenate itself, it separates in order to unite more intimately, it dies in order to live more vividly. Thus, Tiniote continued after a little while, the premonitions of childhood must pass away in order to rise again as truth in the spirit of the man. So the beautiful youthful myrtles of the world before, the poems of Homer and his times, the prophecies and revelations will wither, but the germ that lay in them will emerge as ripe fruit in autumn. The simplicity and innocence of the first time dies, to return in the perfected cultivation, and the holy peace of paradise perishes, so that what was only a gift of nature may blossom again as the acquired property of humanity.<

To become at home in the world, to live creatively with things, free of all storm clouds in the mind, to rediscover what one knows no more of than the empty space it left behind.

>> No.17633080

That's nietzsche

>> No.17633854

>>17625804
based

>> No.17635048

Jünger on Hölderlin's dionysian spirit
https://quandosumus.blogspot.com/2020/12/junger-on-holderlins-dionysian-poetry.html

Some commentary on the translations, I would recommend Hamburger or getting the Santner Collection to see if you prefer Hamburger or Sieburth
>>/lit/thread/S16480317#p16480368

Some commentary on his relation to Christianity
>>/lit/thread/S16224479#p16225817

This will likely be difficult, but I am looking at Hölderlin's relation to nihilism (as a religious force rather than decline of values). I have found a similar thinking in the Carmina Burana and will be discussing this along with Bread and Wine and related poems. There is some engagement with Schmitt's thinking as well, the natural order as it relates to the boundaries of nations and war, to some extent defending romanticist politics against him.
https://derschattigewald.org/litforum/showthread.php?tid=15

>> No.17635062

>>17635048
>Santner Collection
Pdf and then deciding on that or one of the translators

>> No.17635531

Dyobump

>> No.17635604

>>17625659
Euripedes - Bacchae

>> No.17636796

>>17635048
Interesting. Thanks

>> No.17636833

>>17635604
>Euripedes - Bacchae
Isn't the Bacchae a warning against the dionysian spirit?

>> No.17636873

>>17636833
I have always read it as indicating that attempting to resist or suppress it is an exercise in stupidity that will, at worse, lead to self-destruction

>> No.17637498

>>17636833
Unlikely

>> No.17638265

>>17627650
The emergence of Nazism was wholly contingent on the historical conditions which necessitated its emergence, stop this sonderweg nonsense where history is just an eternal bus ride with fixed stops now and then.