Guénon and Satan

[Anonymous No.17598866]

Few people know this, but Guénon wrote a poem for Satan. I don't know if this rare and little known document has been translated into English, but since I am French I thought it might be interesting to translate it for you and see what you think about it. I apologize in advance if I make mistakes in the translation!

This poem by Réné Guénon was probably written before he was 20 years old (see Marie-France James, Ésotérisme et christianisme autour de René Guénon). It is taken from the Cahiers de l'Herne "René Guénon" under the direction of J.P. Laurant with the help of Paul Barbanegra, Paris, Éd. de l'Herne, 1985.

Aspects of Satan
I

Satan, old Androgynous! In You I recognize
A Satyr of yesteryear that, of course, I believed
Long deceased. Alas! the dead go fast!
But I see my mistake and, since I am invited to do so,
I will confess that in my eyes this terrible Satan
In a strange way reminds us of the God Pan.

Fright of the good people, terror of the Middle Ages!
Without a doubt, time has changed you somewhat,
And yet your eyes keep the same fire.
Your horns have grown and your tail is longer;
But I recognize you with your oblong face,
Your bald and wrinkled forehead (you must be so old!)
Your strong jaw and your goaty beard.
I recognize you well, and yet I can guess
That certain events must have happened
Who have not left you without pain and torment.
What happened then? What is it that compels you
To avoid the day as well as a Stryge?
Your air has darkened, you already so pensive
That we used to see, lonely and fearful,
Wandering in the countryside playing the flute
Or keep your herds sitting in front of your hut.
Who declared war on you without mercy?
Who denounced you as our enemy?

[Anonymous No.17598870]

I wouldn't have believed it, and you didn't think much of it.
When you were meditating peacefully in the past.
This is true though, or so it is said,
And there is now a horrible story being told about it.
Stalked from all sides, poor Lucifuge
On the porch of the church sought refuge.
You have to admit that you are not very handsome,
As I see you on this old tent.
You have become the hideous gargoyle.
Let someone, angel or saint, under his feet crushes.
The Christian curses you and the preacher curses you.
Shows you every moment to excite fear;
It depicts you screaming, waving in the flames,
And constantly busy tormenting souls.
The audience quivers, and, all filled with fear,
Dread to fall some day under your law...
Today it is worse, and with impudence,
O height of disgrace! Your existence is denied.

You who once frightened the most powerful,
You have become a toy for children!
Some old devotee, with great piety,
Only you still fears you and your name is signed.
I know who you are and I do not fear you;
I pity you with all my heart for having fallen so low!
I feel neither anger nor hatred for you,
I implore sovereign goodness on your behalf,
And I hope to see you, ancient Revolted,
Weary at last and contrite, enter the Unit!

[Anonymous No.17598883]

II

Satan, king of the Underworld and lord of the Abyss,
How sad your empire is in its sublime horror!
There you live dull and alone; none other than Death.
Would not dare to share your lamentable fate.
No matter how bitter your immortal pain,
It must be very cold in the eternal flame!
So they lied, those who portrayed you, Satan,
Surrounded by your court, Behemoth, Leviathan,
Baal-Zeboub, Moloch, Astaroth, Asmodeus,
A large and richly decorated suite!
This splendor is not very suitable for you whose suffering
Is boundless and endless, immense despair!
Your foolish pride, you must regret it,
O you who to God himself wanted to be equal to you!
Didn't you know then, whatever it may seem,
That the Absolute is nothing, that Being is the Non-Being?
What! Don't you know that the top is the bottom?
For God is the Infinite, He is everything and is not!
Alas! Thou hast paid dearly for thy recklessness,
And you recognized your impotence too late!
Is it all over then? and must it always be
You spend in the Abyss and the nights and the days?
No! It is not possible, and your fate must still
To touch one day the heart of supreme goodness!
Do not despair: one day will finally come
Where, after so long, your torment will end,
And then, delivered from your dark kingdom,
You will be able to contemplate the clarity of the Plérôme!

O ancient serpent, Nahash, whom you knew well
Moses was silent and never said anything about it,
Where do you come from? No one knows! Who are you? A mystery!
The Templars once called you our Father;
Why did they call you our Father? I don't know why! And it doesn't matter after all,
To me who am nothing, lost in the great All?

- René Guénon.

Note:
Two school notebooks held by a braided red cord contained one a draft of the novel The Frontier of the Other World, the other nine poems whose titles are as follows: The Phantom Ship, The Haunted House, Baal Zeboub, The Great Black Shadow, The High Hunt, Litanies of the Black God, Samael, The Aspects of Satan, Satan-Panthée (source: Cahiers de l'Herne "René Guénon").

[Anonymous No.17598907]

>>17598883
>the clarity of the Plérôme!
Pleroma*

[Anonymous No.17598917]

>>17598870
>Weary at last and contrite, enter the Unit!
or: the Unity*

[Anonymous No.17598948]

The text in french.

[Anonymous No.17599014]

Interesting. You should send the translations to the guenon /lit/ magazine that an anon has, very slowly, been trying to get submissions for: >>/lit/thread/S17190174

[Anonymous No.17599047]

This was pretty good. Truly, in the end even Satan himself deserves to be delivered from his estrangement from God. Guénon was a man of many talents.

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDYqWRDiE No.17599749]

FURTHER PROOF THAT «ESOTERIC TRADITIONALISTS» ARE NOTHING BUT KRYPTOPAGANS AT BEST, AND KRYPTOSATANISTS AT WORST.

[Anonymous No.17599770]

>>17599749
fuck off retard

[Anonymous No.17599782]

>>17599749
Mátate, tonto.

[Anonymous No.17600076]

>>17599749
mega cringe

[Anonymous No.17601217]

>>17599749
gigacringe

[Anonymous No.17601248]

>>17599749
You're worse than butterfly

[Anonymous No.17601252]

>>17598866
lol, source?

[Anonymous No.17601278]

>>17599749
This is the first good post you’ve ever made because it’s true. The large proportion of Traditionalists become Muslims. Ask yourself why. Ask yourself why it seems like the thought of a lot of these people distilled down is either religious relativism, Islam, or Luciferian? All but a handful of them lead eventually in those directions. In fact, the one man who has gotten the most criticism for his sort of “Traditionalism” and has been labeled the darkest, most occult, most satanic of all of them, Julius Evola, is one of the least so. He is the only one of the big names in Traditionalism that didn’t ultimately end up explicitly total relativism, Islam, or Luciferianism and even then, his thinking can lead you there if you make enough (incorrect) inferences about his occult ideas. The simple truth is there is one, exactly ONE, Tradition which none of these guys were willing to engage with at all and yet is quite obviously pointing in the direction of and that is ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY.

[Anonymous No.17601299]

>>17601278

[Anonymous No.17601307]

>>17601278
Preach

[Anonymous No.17601320]

[Anonymous No.17601332]

>>17601278
Hello Andres, good to see you

[Anonymous No.17601388]

>>17598948
very nice, thank you

[Anonymous No.17601448]

>>17599749
>>17601278
Intriguing. Go on would you?

[Anonymous No.17601471]

>>17601278
Cringe. Keep your exoteric bullshit.

[Anonymous No.17601485]

>>17598866
do you have a pdf of that book?

[Anonymous No.17602208]

bump

[Anonymous No.17602221]

>>17599749
100% correct

[Anonymous No.17602231]

>>17599770
>>17599782
>>17600076
>>17601217
imagine trying so hard

[Anonymous No.17602238]

>>17601278
it's Catholicism in fact

[Anonymous No.17602255]

>>17599749
They're gnostics at core. So is sufism.

[Anonymous No.17602273]

>>17602238
No Orthodox believes the Church fathers were Protestants.

[Anonymous No.17602355]

>>17602238
The Church that existed at the time of Augustine was completely different than what existed nearly a millennia after at the time of Luther.

[Anonymous No.17602384]

>>17599749
Based pedo

[Anonymous No.17602424]

>>17599749
>>17601278
>Hindu tradition teaches many true things about the end of the kali yuga; but one who were merely knows these truths in the mind will be helpless to resist the temptations of those times, and many who recognize the Antichrist (Chalmakubi) when he comes will nonetheless worship him - only the power of Christ given to the heart will have the strength to resist him. - Fr. Seraphim Rose
You guys might be baiting, but it's true. The harsh reality is that the antichrist's insidiousness is not removed from the world's vast array of spirituality. Those who simply "know" and do not bar themselves from the temptations of the antichrist will nevertheless make an idol out of decline. All spirituality will inevitable be perverted and inverted into a form of collapse worship. Take Communion and focus on acquiring a well tempered spirit with the help of Christ.

[Anonymous No.17602492]

>>17599749
>>17601278
>writing a poem asking if satan should be forgiven is worshipping satan
slow down autists

[Anonymous No.17602584]

>>17599014
serious about this btw

[Anonymous No.17602598]

>>17601485
http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=03437033D074E83CF331C25B6322AB1D

[Anonymous No.17602687]

>>17602424
I’m not baiting at all. I’m totally sincere in acknowledging having read a lot of Traditionalists, that most of them end up in either Islam, Luciferian Satanism, or some sort of generic ecumenical relativism. Moreover, the most prominent Western authors within Traditionalism totally failed to a thorough investigation of Christianity, specifically Orthodox Christianity. I found Evola to be the most authentic of just about all of them and the biggest name who actually didn’t fall into what we can refer to here as the relativist-Islamic-Luciferian trap. It’s quite telling then that his thinking will point you in the direction of just about everything with the one very notable exception of Orthodox Christianity. He totally refused to even learn about it let alone write about it. A giant failure on the part of these authors and a massive disservice to their readers.

[Anonymous No.17602747]

>>17602687
>I found Evola to be the most authentic of just about all of them and the biggest name who actually didn’t fall into what we can refer to here as the relativist-Islamic-Luciferian trap.

I don't really like Evola but I find him the most honest and least bullshit of the traditionalists. No Guenonian can respond honestly to his critique of Man and His Becoming According to Vedanta. That said, if Evola is the most honest, it goes to show how cringe and disable the movement really is.

[Anonymous No.17602873]

>>17602687
>relativist-Islamic-Luciferian trap
I see it as just the trap of idolatry. Relativism is just a justification for a vague permissivness that allows the purity of monotheistic worship to be watered down and with it the spiritual integrity of its adherents. Islam is just the idolisation of temporal power and luciferianism is just the idolisation of created things.
But the problem I have- and I was thinking of starting a new thread about this but we always have tonnes of christian threads so I'll just address the question here- is how can supposedly rational people not see the inherent idolatry of christianity? How do all these cults and heretical sects that purport to be monotheistic but end up idolising created things not see their folly? I don't really understand or accept the concept of the antichrist but to me it seems like it could be nothing more effective and insidious than the worship of some aspect of creation in the guise of actual monotheism.
As an extension of this: how is it that caths and orthos can reject people who worship The Father and not the son? Doesn't this evidence the hypocrisy of their claim to be a monotheistic, anti idolatrous spirituality?

[Anonymous No.17602889]

>>17602747
>his critique of Man and His Becoming According to Vedanta
What does it boil down to?

[Anonymous No.17602932]

>>17602889
advaita is overrated and not that essential and guenonians can't admit it

[Anonymous No.17602973]

>>17599749
How can a pedo tripfag be so based, yet a faggot?

[Anonymous No.17603005]

>>17602873
>As an extension of this: how is it that caths and orthos can reject people who worship The Father and not the son?
The son is the Father incarnate in flesh.

[Anonymous No.17603078]

>>17602238
I'm Catholic but you're just an edgy polemist LARPer. Protestants =/= Orthodox.
But the guy you're answering to is just as edgy and LARPER as you, because he says the satanist Julius Evola wasn't a Luciferian. I bet he defends Evola because he shares his racist and autistic anti Christian postures of le epic Evrope.

[Anonymous No.17603090]

>>17603005
That's heresy by the standard of both Catholic and Orthodox Churches, fucking autistic LARPer.

[Anonymous No.17603093]

>>17603078
He wasn’t a satanist.

[Anonymous No.17603108]

>>17603090
> I and the Father are one (John 10:30)
> It is fundamental for Orthodox Christians that they accept Christ as both God and Man, both natures complete. This is viewed as the only way of escaping the hell of separation from God. The incarnation unites humanity to divinity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_theology#Incarnation

[Anonymous No.17603115]

>>17603093
You just whitewash him because you agree with his political postures. You hate Guenon because he wasn't a racist. Keep worshiping the sex magic adept who wrote 'Pagan Imperialism', LARPer.

[Anonymous No.17603131]

>>17603108
The Father is not the Son, LARPer. They're one but they're not the same person. Saying that the Son is the God the Father is heretic. Your wikipedia quotes don't prove your heretic posture. And Jesus was fully man, that means he was fully a Jewish man. You worship a Jew.

[Anonymous No.17603158]

>>17603115
You project nonsense allegations onto people. He wrote pagan imperialism when he was young and distanced himself from it later.

[Anonymous No.17603169]

>>17599749
>>17601278

Proof Christcucks don't even read the text given to them. Christcucks will only read the bible one verse in a Facebook meme at a time.

[Anonymous No.17603174]

>>17602873
>how is it that caths and orthos can reject people who worship The Father and not the son?
Because Jesus Himself says that all should honor the Son as they honor the Father? (John 5:23)

Plus, it’s not suddenly polytheism. The Father and the Son and the Spirit are one in essence and substance, they’re just distinct individual realities within God.

[Anonymous No.17603181]

>>17603131
You’re an idiot and arguing semantics for no reason. I’m not delivering apologetics nor a theological argument, just clarifying for someone who is clearly not a Christian and trying to understand. If you want me to say Jesus was both a man and the Son of God in perfect unity with Him, which doesn’t clarify anything for the guy, then here you go. Seething Catholic moron.

[Anonymous No.17603186]

>>17603169
Nice rebuttal. Very nuanced. Great supporting arguments.

[Anonymous No.17603242]

>>17603181
Say that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh as if the Trinity has only one divine person to your parish Orthodox priest and see for yourself what an heretic bullshit you're spouting on the internet. I bet you don't even go to church, /pol/tard.

[Anonymous No.17603248]

>>17603078
I won't make another template just to change the word Protestant for Orthodox, but whatever, LARPer.

[Anonymous No.17603257]

>>17603186
At least pagancucks can be racists without contradicting their beliefs, unlike poltard "Christians" who hate Jews but worship the biggest Jew in world history.

[Anonymous No.17603264]

>>17603248
I wish you luck on your Twitter crusade, LARper. I hope you're recovering from Trump's lost.

[Anonymous No.17603295]

>>17603264
Thanks brother, have a nice day.

[Anonymous No.17603353]

>>17598866
>>17598870
>>17598883
I knew Rene Guenon used to dabble in the occult, but I never knew his younger years were this wild. This only makes him even more based.

[Anonymous No.17603357]

>>17603108
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patripassianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism
In the West, a version of this belief was known pejoratively as patripassianism by its critics (from Latin patri- "father" and passio "suffering"), because the teaching required that since God the Father had become directly incarnate in Christ, the Father literally sacrificed Himself on the Cross.[2]

In this patripassianism asserts that God the Father—rather than God the Son—became incarnate and suffered on the cross for humanity's redemption. This amplifies the personhood of Jesus Christ as the personality of the Father, but is seen by trinitarians as distorting the spiritual transaction of atonement that was taking place at the cross.

[Anonymous No.17603432]

>>17603357
>Matthew 27:46
Thanks anon

[Anonymous No.17603442]

>>17599749
Based.

[Anonymous No.17603445]

>>17602932
Not a very powerful criticism imo. Sure. Vedanta is just a framework. Its got pretty good explanatory power and a fairly wide scope, but you can just as easily use a platonic framework or a monotheistic one. I expected more from the way you were speaking. Certainly its true its not essential. I can agree actually that its overrated because, as history has demonstrated, it has the tendency to degenerate (into idolatry, guru worship and new ageish reletavism). So are you on generally contra Traditionalism? And what position do you espouse? >>17603005
>"You shall have no other gods before me."; “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:3-6
>Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it. “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.
Deuteronomy 12:32-13:18
"God is not a man, that He should lie, NOR A SON OF MAN, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?"
Numbers 23:19
I don't see how you can ignore this. Its law.
>>17603108
As it says in Numbers quoted above "God is not a man... nor a son of man." What clearer sign or evidence do christians need than that according to their own holy book their beliefs are heretical... I'm beginning to suspect the concept of the antichrist is in fact a cover to conceal that christianity is the equal to all that the concept of the antichrist implies. How else can it be that so stark a hypocrisy can exist? christianity is becoming clear to me as a deceptive innovation of satan to draw souls away from pure monotheism. I've conceived similar things before but I thought of it as mostly political on the part of the flavians, but now I understand its more sinister still.

[Anonymous No.17603460]

>>17599749
Says the lunatic marcionist faggot who preaches that Yahweh, God of the Old Testament isn't the Father of Jesus.

[Anonymous No.17603501]

>>17603174
>just distinct individual realities within God.
>Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4; it is plainly contradictory to try and reconcile the concept of a plurality of individualities with an ultimate oneness. Besides everything is within God, thats why the Supreme One is called "The Lord of Hosts". God is Hosting all creation. As it says:
>Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39; "no other" is what I mean by ultimate oneness.
>>17603181
It seems to me the reason there are so many sects and schism of christianity is because as I said (>>17603445) its just satanic deception. You can never agree on what it not true. Truth is one as God is.
Its so ironic, even the gospels say "truth will set you free" but then it engages in heretical lies such as "i am the way, the truth and the life", "worship me and be saved" etc. I think this is indicative. The best deceptions mix truth and falsehood so as better to disguise the deception and obscure the truth to whom those it is trying to deceive.

[Anonymous No.17603599]

>>17603445
>that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you
JN 17:21

>Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
JN 14:6

>Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
JN 8:58

>I and the Father are one
JN 10:30

>God said to Moses, I Am Who I Am
EX 3:14

Meditate on "I Am"

[Anonymous No.17603852]

>>17603599
>that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you
This is deliberately blurring the notions of relative one and absolute one. There are many relative ones but only one Absolute One.
>meditate on I am
Do you think I haven't? Imo the main christian failing- the failing made most in the gospel of John- is the idolisation of consciousness. It makes God in the image of human consciousness instead of recognise that human consciousness is in the image of God's Divine consciousness. We are like God but infinitely lesser since God is eternal and we are ephemeral, God is like us but greater since God is omniscient, omnipotent etc and we are not.
>Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.
Job 37:16; obviously there are many verses to prove this and no person who claims to be a monotheist denies it, i.e. God's eternality, omnipotence, omniscience etc.

Besides you cannot use later supposed revelations to contradict former ones, as I already quoted:
>"God is not a man, that He should lie, NOR A SON OF MAN, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?"
- Numbers 23:19; also:
>"Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for HE IS NOT A MAN, that He should change His mind."
- 1 Samuel 15:29;
> "Yet He too is wise and brings disaster; He does not call back His words. He will rise up against the house of the wicked and against the allies of evildoers."
- Isaiah 31:2. Consider deeply this last verse and the context in which it comes to you, please for the sake of your soul(s).

Honestly I cannot see how anyone can defend christianity, except through 1) sheer ignorance 2) wilful ignorance or 3) deliberate deception.
Im reminded of 3 places in scripture:

>The pride of your heart has deceived you.
Obadiah 1:3;
>Take care lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them;
Deuteromy 11:16 and it says after that that if you are deceived the Lord's anger will be kindled and God will shut up the heavens and withhold its fruits- the irony being that it is the same human pride spoken of in Obadiah that has split the heavens and is withholding the earths fruits for greed; lastly Gen 3:4,
>the serpent said to the woman: "Surely you shall not die."...

[Anonymous No.17603877]

>>17602747
>No Guenonian can respond honestly to his critique of Man and His Becoming According to Vedanta.
That’s just what it is, only a critique of Guenon’s book which is itself only a brief exposition of Vedanta, Evola shows in his critique that he knows nothing about the actual metaphysics he is trying to attack, but rather he attacks Guenon for things that are clearly wrong or nonsensical if you've actually read Shankara

[Anonymous No.17604142]

bump

[Anonymous No.17604162]

>>17602492
literally this

[Anonymous No.17604297]

>>17602238
Catholicism peaked at Trent. That was like Master of Reality and Vatican I was Vol. 4. Just perfect.

[Anonymous No.17604332]

>>17603599
If the gospel of john is what christianity hangs on wow to christians even...

[Anonymous No.17604379]

>>17601278
>there is one, exactly ONE, Tradition which none of these guys were willing to engage with at all
Not just Christianity, but also Buddhism, the Greeks, modernity, basically anything that expresses the worldview of the White man. Traditionalism is designed to undermine Whiteness.

[Anonymous No.17604409]

>>17603115
>You hate Guenon because he wasn't a racist
Yes, this makes him a leftist

[Anonymous No.17604423]

>yet another pseudo-/pol/ thread where Christians make fools out of themselves by desperately and idiotically (to anyone with a hint of intelligence) trying to discredit any belief which rejects the ultimate supremacy of their own beliefs

[Anonymous No.17604434]

>>17604423
Writes the frogposter. Kys.

[Anonymous No.17604512]

>>17604409
retard

[Anonymous No.17604523]

>>17602973
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYAHBGApQTU

[Anonymous No.17604547]

>>17604379
Eh? Traditionalists write about all of those. One of Evola's main focus was around Hyperborea.

[Anonymous No.17604632]

>>17604512
Yeah mate its like totally rightwing to fuck niggers.

[Anonymous No.17604637]

>>17604547
Maybe evola should have based his world view on Aristotle instaid.

[Anonymous No.17604650]

>>17604632
It is. 'Right wing' is just politics, not racism, you idiot.

[Anonymous No.17604737]

>>17604632
Guénon talk about races and he's a- or meta- political you dumb piece of shit

You're a worm who blames the eagle for flying, a materialist cretin who thinks that politics can improve anything in this age of dissolution. Go back to /pol/ and let us discuss metaphysics.

[Anonymous No.17604748]

>>17604737
>and he's a- or meta- political
So he's a useless cuck and a LARPer, got it.

[Anonymous No.17604776]

>>17604748
>hurr durr... cuckkkkk!!!! cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkkkkk
damn you're so retarded.

[Anonymous No.17605005]

>Guenon was a satanist all along
Literally Blavatsky 2.0

[Anonymous No.17605006]

>>17603501
>>17603852
As an aside, on the back of the above posts I hereby officially declare christianity refuted and because islam believes in jesus it, thereby, is also refuted.

[Anonymous No.17605055]

>>17602687
Which traditionalist authors ended up satanic or luciferian?
I'd like names and possibly books cause it would definitely change things.

I'm not aware of a single one who advocated luciferianism, other than some people claiming Evola did.

[Anonymous No.17605099]

>>17605055
Its bullshit. They can't name a single luciferian traditionalist because there isn't one. Luciferianism (or luciferism as Guenon and Schuon called it) was criticized by them significantly.

[Anonymous No.17605123]

>>17605055
>>17605099
Guenon advocates for restoring the fall of Lucifer and that Satan is an inextricable aspect of Brahma. Evola states that the heroic initiation is luciferism from the perspective of devotional-priestly forms.

[Nemo !!GgBWHLRiayD No.17605134]

>>17602255
Gnosticism pertains to nobility (derived from root: "gno-"); pagans/satanists are ignoble; do not use words the meaning of which you ignore.

[Anonymous No.17605151]

>>17605123
I'll actually agree that from the guenonian definition of luciferism (reversing of hierarchy) Evola's lifting of the warrior class above the priest class would be Luciferian. However, evola makes the case that this priest above warrior class was not universal and there are several traditional societies that had the warrior king as the hieratic peak. So to evola it was traditional and only luciferian in relation to the former believed model.

As to guenon, the redemption of lucifer is not luciferian. To be luciferian would be the desire for your ego(individuality) to be above God, or the veneration of Lucifer, which guenon did neither.

[Anonymous No.17605195]

>>17605134
>Gnosticism
Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], 'having knowledge')

[Anonymous No.17605214]

>>17605151
Continuing on this, the trads could be described as crypto-advaitan rather than Islamic or relativistic; though many converted to suffer Islam. Even their sufism focuses on supreme identity (like Brahma identity with yogis) which would be counter to most views of islam.

If the claim is that they are morally relativistic that is somewhat true if you mean in terms of cultures. Different traditional cultures have different morals, a catholic can drink wine but a Muslim can't. So one must follow their individual dharma which is not chosen but is your true nature in accordance with the Supreme reality.

They are however the exact opposite of onotlogically or metaphysically relative.

The arguments made about them being lucifer-islam-relativist is massively uniformed.

[Anonymous No.17605215]

>>17605151
Someone mentioned Evola's critique of Guenon's Man's Becoming in this thread so I read it and it's interesting to see his critique side-by-side with his writings on the Hermetic Tradition. Evola in his discussion of Brahman sees no distinction that Guenon makes between the "upper waters" and the "lower waters." In other words, Evola in the Hermetic Tradition makes no point to clarify that the Elixir, One the All, only refers to the cosmological point of view of the multiple states of manifestation (which would be from Guenon's perspective) and so when he discusses the Blacker than Black, the totalization of the individual Mercury (mind) with the unconditioned states, he identifies this state with unqualified Brahman and this is only in order to establish and rewire the relationship of the self to the body and reaffirm the conditioned state: Saturn crowded.

In mythological terms, Adam succeeds in taking of the tree of life by conquering the God of the Edenic Paradise, which in the alchemical view is de-hypostatized and seen as the whore of nature. He states that the true art is not discovering gold but crafting it and that the initiate isn't to stop at the white, that is, at liberation from the conditioned states, but that it consists of the Earth as a diadem, that Saturn makes a fine "Sun" if only its "redness is brought out."

[Anonymous No.17605217]

Your petty arguing about traditionalism and luciferianism is insignificant. We see that many traditionalist became muslims and, as per the below post made in another thread, anything that is not a pure monotheism- worshipping nothing but the supreme, eternal One, is idolatry and thus tantamount to rebellion against God and so might as well be thought of as the equivalent of luciferianism:

>Is Protestantism merely pseudo-Islam with Christian flavourings? Why has this alliance seemed to continue to this day (with both intent on the destruction of Apostolic Christianity)??

Simple.

Both christianity and islam are heretical sects of pure monotheism. [I wont say judaism is pure monotheism but it’s a pretty direct remnant depending on the soul in question.]

chrisitianity is an idolisation of man [no doubt a distortion of the message[s] of the countless martyrs of the late second temple period that were executed by the romans who cynically took and distorted their teachings and fused them with other things such as pagan ideology [cynicism and borrowing elements from the mystery cults,] possibly hinduism and buddhism etc all so as to transform the imperial cult of ceaser into the more palatable imperial cult of christ. The end result is that the idolisation of man is used to serve the end of gaining and wielding temporal power.

Similar thing with islam except there is a finer line between the idolisation of man and the idolisation of temporal power in its own right. The veneration of the prophet [and the injunction to follow everything he did-] in islam is a method of sliding in the idolisation of man to achieve temporal power [pretty thinly veiled as well when you look into the things the quran and hadiths say about jihad].

So no protestantism is just a result of the schismaticism that is inherent in an ideology that uses lies and deception to control its adherents and perpetuates astounding hypocrisies like calling itself monotheism when it is idolatry and calling real monotheist [jews] hypocrites [to be clear though, some jews are hypocrites just as there are hypocrites in every walk of life and belief system, but the hypocrisy is not systematised like it is in christianity.

The alliance continues because all the forces that want to control the temporal world are aligned against God in trying to turn people away from acknowledging God as the ultimate and absolute sovereign of all. All the forces in rebellion against God benefit unilaterally from turning people away from following God and God's rule and acknowledging God's dominion. Only after that unilateral benefit to they then proceed to contend with each other for domination- it’s all in vain though for

>The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

[Anonymous No.17605243]

>>17605215
I don't exactly follow this, evolas hermetism is complex to me.
I do recall that him being called luciferian was seeing the red (warrior) as above the white (priest).

Whether that's what you're referring to or if you also agree that it is luciferian, I do not know.

[Anonymous No.17605259]

>>17605217
So are you advaitan then?
Are you against trads cause they're Islamic.
You might like then cause they're basically crypto-advaitan.

[Nemo !!GgBWHLRiayD No.17605263]

>>17605195
Yes.

[Anonymous No.17605266]

>>17605215
Could you expand on the significance of Saturn crowned, simplified for me?

[Anonymous No.17605320]

>>17605151
>>17605215

As for Guenon, his relationship with luciferism/satanism is definitely not as explicit; however, it is nevertheless present. He is careful to wrap his ideas in symbols and foreign mythological motifs and personas. If Evola's work is actually restricted to only cosmological manifestation, then Evola's work is actually pretty great at detailing a practical orientation to return to the Edenic state, which from Guenon's perspective is necessary to realize the non-individual states of the being. Guenon points that there is in man a point of contact with the Absolute and contact with this center permits the being to realize the multiple states. This is in part an explanatory principle which explains how a being can realize any state at all or develop in any way, even from the perspective of a human. A state cannot become its opposite, it is the law of harmony that permits two things of dislike nature to have a relationship: to coexist. This law of harmony ultimately has its source in the unconditioned center of the being. Thus, for it to change into another state that is governed by other conditions unlike itself, this principle is the source of the change.

This principle finds itself evident in many states and conditions of total manifestation. As Guenon puts it, "Thus, from one order to another, all things are linked together and correspond, to come together in total and universal harmony, for harmony is nothing other than the reflection of principial unity in the manifested world; and it is this correspondence which is the veritable basis of symbolism."

The law of harmony talked about is essentially dharma and is connected with something like providence and other things. Essentially, all conditioned things abide by this law, that has its source in Shekhinah and is enforced by the lesser deity or celestial intermediary, known as Metatron. Guenon connects this intermediary with the God of Abraham in King of the World. Guenon affirms the connection of the title Prince of the World with Metatron (and aside from this there are coins that call Metatron Prince of the Countenance and King of the World), but he states that the aspects of Mikhael and Samael are sides of the same coin; it is the being's relationship to this intermediary that defines the connection.

Anyways, the initiatic act is essentially the violation of this law, the Eliphas Levi "standing on Life as the head of a serpent." Whether you want to call it planetary influences, the forces (sarim) of the Shekhinah under Rigour that man falls to when he sins, etc. whatever mythological or symbolical narrative you want, the initiatic act is essentially the overcoming of this Law and magic, whether sorcery or theurgy, is a mastery of this Law and its effects.

Guenon might not be a satanist, he might not advocate a one-dimensional luciferism, but the things taught in this material is inherently anti-Christian

[Anonymous No.17605400]

>>17605266
I could try to. My only experience with alchemical symbolism is from Evola's book. I don't fully understand the end of the book, whether due to translation errors, excessive symbolism, or maybe even Evola's own lack of really understanding the material as well: laying it out there but himself also struggling.

What Evola lays out in that book is that man, starting from his perspective, finds himself conditioned in a body and is dominated by passions and desires, by a kind of law, that is described by planetary symbolism in the texts. The symbolism is also very fluid and can be used for all kinds of different things. Saturn in a technical sense refers to a particular constellation of emotions and passions that man sees from his perspective. I believe Saturn was connected with greed, but apparently the symbols mean different things for different astrological charts, and Evola points to Gichtel, a student of Boehme, who describes a guide for understanding yours.

So on the one hand Saturn designates a universal principle or power along with the other planets. On the other hand, Saturn has an association with the body, the physical, dense body. This is where the Saturn crowned symbolism comes in. Evola lays out the Work in his book as re-establishing man's connection with his body, where the end goal of the work is to repeat the "violence to the Goddess," the banishment from the Garden of Eden guard by the flaming cherub, etc. There are several stages to the hermetic process and it essentially involves having a contact with unconditioned states, or maybe even just ecstatic states through drugs, violence, sex, etc. and somehow reaping from this state powers. The body that once was seen as a prison is now a mine for power.

To achieve this the initiate must overcome nature, he must overcome the law that God has imprisoned in his being that would keep him a "slave," otherwise the contact with unconditioned states will destroy and devour him. This is achieved by moral discipline and also ceremonial magic where the forces of nature personified as evocatory entities (the planets) are dealt with in ritual, usually prescribed by an attention to the times.

Now, the redness of Saturn refers to the force in the body that is present in males alone: virility. It is Mars, the god of war, that permits man to overcome nature and impose a discipline onto his body. To master the law imposed in him by God, nature, etc. To bring out the Redness of Saturn is to exercise virility (in the Evolian sense.) In another technical sense, redness refers to the stage after the alchemical albedo, rubedo. Nigredo is the contact with the unconditioned, albedo is the state of salvation, rubedo is supposedly the reaffirming of the individualization principle. And so the body which was a prison before is now seen as the refuge from the unconditioned, as the glorified body, as crowned Saturn, a fine Sun.

[Anonymous No.17605427]

>>17605320
>>17605400

>>17605266
Maybe interesting to note as well: ancient Jewish astrological manuscripts consider Samael or the Prince of the World as ruling Mars.

[Anonymous No.17605436]

>>17605427
Evola also says that Mars gave men the weapons to "kill" and his symbolism is connected with iron, with weapons, in the literature. Couple this symbolism with the sickle of Saturn that is a symbol for contact with the unconditioned, likened to "corn reaped while still green," of a violent act in the technique that abolishes the individual consciousness and frees the individual Mercury (the mind) from the prison of Saturn (conditioned by the body).

[Anonymous No.17605463]

>>17604379
>le white meme
this is how you spot a burger

[Anonymous No.17605541]

>>17605259
The only label I will defend is monotheism.

[Anonymous No.17605546]

>>17605320
So unless I'm mistaken, you are claiming that Guenon is luciferian because Metatron is equated with the Abrahamic God?
The trads do see the individual traditions "gods" as hypostases of the one absolute. They also see atma=brahma, which is counter to Christianity.

I don't see how this has anything to do with guenon being luciferian, just that he disagrees with normative Christianity, which I would agree.

Also whats your connection between michael/Samael and Metatron in this?

[Anonymous No.17605609]

>>17605546
>michael/Samael and Metatron
Different anon here but as far as I knownabout Angels Michael and Metatron are both Arch Angels whereas Samael is some sort of Royalty amongst the demons. Michael is said to be angel of strength and victory wield a sword iirc and Metatron is the highest Angel, a sort of ordering managerial being who brings to pass God's will, perhaps like a general secretary or something.

[Anonymous No.17605623]

>>17605609
Appreciated.

According to the above guy, guenon makes Michael related to samael. This somehow related to guenon saying metatron is identical to the abrahamic gods. Which also somehow makes him luciferian, rather than counter to normative christianity.

[Anonymous No.17605652]

>>17605623
Anyone who moves from cath to mus is obviously counter to norm xtianity. They're both hertical idolatrous schisms anyway (as per: >>17605217).

[Anonymous No.17605669]

>>17605652
Right I'm not making the claim that guenon isn't different than norm Christianity, he's not even norm Islam. Im saying that this doesn't make someone luciferian. However I assume one could see him as under lucifers spell, but these are different.

Guenon would be viewed as misguided according to that perspective, he wouldn't be knowingly infernal.

[Anonymous No.17605671]

>>17605652
In so far as they idolatrous (they are designed to gather temporal power and not to attribute it to the supreme being) they can be called demonic, luciferian etc but its better to call them what they are: schismatic idol worshippers disguised as monotheists (islam is a particularly good disguise in that regard but it still cares more about gaining temporal power than submitting to Heavenly power, hence its the cult of a man and thus idolatry).

[Anonymous No.17605678]

>>17605546
>Also whats your connection between michael/Samael and Metatron in this?

Guenon is stating that Satan is the aspect of the theistic-devotional God who punishes. It would be the aspect of the celestial intermediary in its "Rigour." Satan only exists from the perspective of the sinner, in a nutshell; it is the sinner's distorted perspective of God. They are, however, essentially the same being regarded from two different aspects.

There are much more conclusions to draw from the ideas I laid out above. What I laid out above is just a small example of its application. Guenon doesn't write in a way that you can point toward one statement that would render his thought as luciferian at all. And what Guenon sees as satanic or luciferian, some confusion of the hierarchy of spirit, is a very specific criterion that he avoids.

Guenon's metaphysical works are deep, thought-provoking, and have application for the right people, but the idea that Guenon or Evola can be reconciled with monotheistic religions is ridiculous. Their ideas from the perspective of those religions is without a doubt luciferian, sometimes oddly atheistic. I'm thinking of Evola's atheism and Guenon's obscure statement in Symbolism of the Cross that the absolute identity is only a virtuality, a possibility, until it is realized. You cannot consider yourself a Traditionalist and apply these ideas to your own practices without violating the precepts of modern religion.

Take a look at >>17605099 this guy, for example.Try asking your Catholic priest what he thinks about your revived liturgy based on the Qumran solar calendar, Gichtel's writings, and Guenonian symbolism and that you found the Grail and restored the emerald that fell from Lucifer's forehead, unlocking your sense of eternity and totalization of the states of the human condition. In the wrong nation you could be executed for preaching those ideas as Muslim.

[Anonymous No.17605691]

>>17605669
>Guenon would be viewed as misguided

He was certainly well read and wise enough to understand monotheism. Its a simple concept. I think hes liable for worshipping human intellect instead of (submitting to) Divine intellect.

[Anonymous No.17605736]

>>17605678
>Satan only exists from the perspective of the sinner, in a nutshell; it is the sinner's distorted perspective of God.

Right which means Satan is a mistaken view of reality, not that God is Satan. God and Satan are one in the sense that Satan is an illusory superimposition on God.

>Guenon's metaphysical works are deep, thought-provoking, and have application for the right people, but the idea that Guenon or Evola can be reconciled with monotheistic religions is ridiculous.

Most trads don't read evola, he broke heavily with guenon. See guenons letters on him being incorrect. Evola even stated he was different that guenon.

Also, borella uses guenon as a tool for examining catholicism. Borellas daughter was even a Benedictine nun.

>Try asking your Catholic priest what he thinks about your revived liturgy based on the Qumran solar calendar, Gichtel's writings, and Guenonian symbolism and that you found the Grail and restored the emerald that fell from Lucifer's forehead, unlocking your sense of eternity and totalization of the states of the human condition.

You're building up a false image here. If your remove the evola, gichtel, and qumran bit, which most trad would, all you're left with is guenonian symbols and metaphysics which the writers Jean Hani, Jean Borella, and Wolfgang Smith used to understand Catholicism.

I agree that guenon is different than normative catholicism, but some catholics have used him to their benefit and none of your claims of luciferianism hold together at all.

[Anonymous No.17605742]

>>17605691
He followed an nondual islam, him being misguided doesn't make him a satanist.

[Anonymous No.17605773]

the old pleb tactic, who doesn't follow my exoteric doctrine is a satanist/demon/the antichrist

[Anonymous No.17605784]

>>17605742
If you adhering to a schism created by a warlord hell bent on temporal power and dominion, I dunno, your probably right.

[Anonymous No.17605788]

>>17605736
I've decided to revise my argument. I no longer think Guenon has any elements of satanism or luciferism in his writings; on the contrary, I think you are a satanist.

[Anonymous No.17605792]

>>17599749
>christian calling others pagan.
christianity was tainted by greek and roman religion

[Anonymous No.17605807]

>>17605788
Kinda funny, thanks for the talk, anon.

[Anonymous No.17606433]

>>17605005
>Guenon was satanist
You who once frightened the most powerful,
You have become a toy for children!
Some old devotee, with great piety,
Only you still fears you and your name is signed.
I know who you are and I do not fear you;
I pity you with all my heart for having fallen so low!
I feel neither anger nor hatred for you,
I implore sovereign goodness on your behalf,
And I hope to see you, ancient Revolted,
Weary at last and contrite, enter the Unit!

That doesn't sound very satanist to me.

[Anonymous No.17606639]

>>17605678
> In the wrong nation you could be executed for preaching those ideas as Muslim.

That has happened to sufis. If I recall correctly, Rumi wrote of one who ran out into the street in ecstasy screaming 'I am God!'. He was drawn and quartered, though his ecstasy never stopped.

I don't know that it can't be done today though. The late Father Thomas Keating said some things that are rather eyebrow raising for a Catholic, sounding like a neoplatonist or an advaitan at different times.

[Anonymous No.17606660]

>>17603501
I totally agreed with the guy. I only disagreed in this instance because the correct answer that he wanted me to say didn’t seem helpful in this context so I didn’t say it. He is actually right.

[Anonymous No.17606674]

>>17603257
Greek ethne never even meant race. Race is a wholly modernist concept. No pagan would’ve viewed people that way. I don’t know how to tell you but you’ve simply bought into /pol/ and alt-right bullshit.

[Anonymous No.17606678]

>>17604379
Wanna know how I know you didn’t read these authors?

[Anonymous No.17606682]

>>17603242
>as if the Trinity has only one divine person
I literally never said nor implied that.

[Anonymous No.17607219]

>>17598866
Why the long face?

[Anonymous No.17607284]

>>17605214
>Even their sufism focuses on supreme identity (like Brahma identity with yogis) which would be counter to most views of islam.
Sufi writings and indeed even the Quran say that Allah is the Self just as the Upanishads and Vedanta writings do

[Anonymous No.17607647]

>>17605671
>islam is a particularly good disguise in that regard but it still cares more about gaining temporal power than submitting to Heavenly power, hence its the cult of a man and thus idolatry)
If that was true, when the early Muslims were expanding and capturing new areas in the near-east, why did they return the newly-collected Jizya tax to people in areas they had to retreat from? If they cared about earthly power more than obeying God they would have kept it.

[Anonymous No.17607651]

>>17607284
>even the Quran say that Allah is the Self
Which surah and ayat?

[Anonymous No.17607677]

>>17605678
>I'm thinking of Evola's atheism and Guenon's obscure statement in Symbolism of the Cross that the absolute identity is only a virtuality, a possibility, until it is realized
This is not so obscure but is just saying that the intellectual understanding of something like a metaphysical doctrine is not the same as intuitively apprehending it as true in spiritual realization, and that until this intellectual understanding gives way to an immediate and intuitive realization or attainment of the doctrine in question then the knowledge of that doctrine remains only virtual as opposed to the actual knowledge or it apprehended directly during gnosis.

[Anonymous No.17607756]

>>17607651
In Quran 59:19
Surat Al-Ĥashr (The Exile) - سورة الحشر

وَلَا تَكُوۡنُوۡا كَالَّذِيۡنَ نَسُوا اللّٰهَ فَاَنۡسٰٮهُمۡ اَنۡفُسَهُمۡؕ اُولٰٓـئِكَ هُمُ الۡفٰسِقُوۡنَ

"And be not like those who forgot Allah , so He made them forget themselves. Those are the defiantly disobedient"

There is a saying sometimes cited in Sufi writings as a hadith or as a saying of one of the companions that "He who knows himself knows his Lord", Ibn Arabi and al-Ghazali both cite it in their writings. The above Quran verse may be the indirect source of this saying.

https://abuaminaelias.com/whoever-knows-himself-knows-his-lord/

Al-Ghazali writes:

فمن عرف سر الروح فقد عرف نفسه وإذا عرف نفسه فقد عرف ربه وإذا عرف نفسه وربه عرف أنه أمر رباني بطبعه وفطرته وأنه في العالم الجسماني غريب وأن هبوطه إليه لم يكن بمقتضى طبعه في ذاته

Whoever knows the mysteries of the spirit, knows himself. If he knows himself, he knows his Lord. If he knows himself and his Lord, he knows his matter is heavenly in his nature and his instinct, and that he is a stranger in the corporeal world, that his decent into it is not as a result of his nature in itself.

Source: Iḥyā’ Ulūm al-Dīn 3/382

[Anonymous No.17607865]

>>17607756
Thanks for the quick reply.

>There is a saying sometimes cited in Sufi writings as a hadith or as a saying of one of the companions that "He who knows himself knows his Lord", Ibn Arabi and al-Ghazali both cite it in their writings
I heard this was a false/weak hadith. Do you know more about its reliability?

[Anonymous No.17607871]

>>17607865
I'm dumb, your link talks about it immediately

[Anonymous No.17608237]

>>17606674
There it is

[Anonymous No.17608888]

>>17607647
>why did they return the newly-collected Jizya tax to people in areas they had to retreat from?
To curry favour and win allies. Obvious.

[Anonymous No.17608930]

>>17607647
Also wouldn't it have been defiance of God to return the Jizya if it was a so called Divine law to tax non muslims, thus they demonstrate they were willing to bend the rules for earthly favour and influence