/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17549218]

I'm at the end of all thought now that I've read and understood Cioran. He is the Exit door, so to speak. I am free from all concern and strife. Free from the fear of death, free from the need for meaning. All my supposed dreams were burdens this whole time. My world is mine too use, waste, gamble, or protect. Politics are irrelevant now. The future is irrelevant. My life, irrelevant. I'm not coping. I was doing well before Cioran and I'm doing "better" after, if those words mean anything. I am free from meaning. I couldn't go back if I tried.

[Anonymous No.17549231]

You are at the end of all thought until you delve the depths of death and lo the plum does not yield end.

[Anonymous No.17549237]

>>17549218
This, nihilism is actually based and filters both christcucks and Nietzschefags.

[Anonymous No.17549274]

Probably hasn't even read the Bible.

So what are you gonna do with your self indulgent, narcissistic nihilism? Default to hedonism like everyone else?
Or be an actual human being concerned for the well being of others and advancing Being in a positive way?
Or be a whiney, pointless fool?

Pessimism is just a justification for hedonism. Prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.17549277]

I finally made it. Years of searching led me to this final point. And one meme on this website had it. Right under my nose this entire time. Life is funny that way. Come what will, I am free from the curse that afflicts man, and now I bask in the dark glow of our final fate. I walk lightly now. I move slowly. The intolerable weight is gone. The pressure in my eyeballs released. I cannot be perturbed. I cannot be made to dream, yearn, or feel jealously. I cannot hate. The world is simply of no importance, nor I am. My fame, my status, my opinions, my actions -- ha. Cut me down. End me. Make me a god. Whatever fate decides, I will take it in stride and wait for the end to come. I will die in peace. Everything that happens after this moment will occur in the waiting room. My emptied shell. Your bullshit could never fill it again. Even this titanic contempt fails to move me. My only disappointment is that I had to experience life

[Anonymous No.17549334]

Those still lost in their pointless workings. Scurry like mad insects. I chose to move when I chose to move. I choose to grant my attention to the vast abyss that you shield your mind from. I stare deeply into it. The insects crawl. My carapace is rife with holes. You cannot fill me with your delusions anymore. They pass through me with your desperate words. Save your projects and projections for your own self to suffer by. I am looking at the thing that surrounds all things. It is me now. A monumental silence will come. Until then you are free to move about and, scurrying towards a fresh light, free to redirect yourself upon glancing against the illusion. Onto the next and the next and the next. Desperation. Give me a silent man

[Anonymous No.17549341]

>>17549237
Nihilism was BTFOd by Greek virtue ethicists

[Anonymous No.17549593]

>>17549218
Eraserhead is good but wrong board, anon

[Anonymous No.17549758]

>>17549218

Which have you actually read?

[Anonymous No.17550184]

>>17549274
>Pessimism is just a justification for hedonism. Prove me wrong.
How do I know you're 18?

[Anonymous No.17550201]

>>17549758
short history, gall, temptation
I will read the rest but I have already been gutted

[Anonymous No.17550230]

>>17550201

You've done the major French works, seemingly in order to this point. I respect this.

A personal favorite from "Gall" was the bit about how he loves those nations of astronomers-Chaldeans, Pre-Columbians-(or something like that) who, for love of the sky, went bankrupt in history. The point being that it's a comfy image of people who pass the time peacefully in a certain wonder at the world without worrying about "leaving their mark", which is vain.

[Anonymous No.17550293]

>>17549218
Based. Anon has finally achieved Pyrrhonist ataraxia.

[Anonymous No.17550298]

>>17549758
>spending all this time reading Cioran
>translated versions

[Anonymous No.17550312]

>>17550230
I am intending to read them all in order this year, starting from the French ones.

I fully agree with the sentiment. It has changed my life, even though I'm shitposting. I feel free and I can see the motivations that drove me and drive others.

the one thing I'm stuck on is love for friends and family. it still feels meaningful. but the striving for glory and "being the source of events" is all gone.

[Anonymous No.17550315]

>>17550293
>Pyrrhonist ataraxia.
I haven't read about this but I do see some similarity to stoicism and taoism

[Anonymous No.17550976]

>>17549218
Based anon. I have arrived to the same conclusion but through UG Krishnamurti because Cioran is lyrical and sometimes I don't get it. I loved delving into the valley nothingness and death. There is nothing else worth thinking about.

[Anonymous No.17550996]

>>17549274
>the Bible is true because the Bible is true!

[Anonymous No.17551047]

>>17549274
cringe post

[Anonymous No.17551152]

>>17549218
>I'm at the end of all thought now that I've read and understood Cioran.
Good
>He is the Exit door, so to speak. I am free from all concern and strife. Free from the fear of death,
Highly doubt it. It takes decades of spiritual practice to truly get to this point without just being depressed. You will be very surprised the next time you have a brush with death and cry out instinctively, "No!"
>free from the need for meaning.
Good
>All my supposed dreams were burdens this whole time.
Yes
>My world is mine too use, waste, gamble, or protect.
You mean your life? Sure, but you can use it better
>Politics are irrelevant now. The future is irrelevant. My life, irrelevant.
Good
>I'm not coping. I was doing well before Cioran and I'm doing "better" after, if those words mean anything. I am free from meaning. I couldn't go back if I tried.
Good


But if you think the end of the spiritual journey is the abandonment of the household life you should know that you probably have a long way to go. Enlightenment isn't found in a book and your kilesas are still latent. If you think you're so enlightened it's usually a sign of how you are still held up on personality view which means you haven't even broken through to sotapanna

[Anonymous No.17551179]

>>17550315
Taoism isn't the "take it easy dude" philosophy westerners make it out to be

[Anonymous No.17551193]

>>17551152
>your realizations are wrong because buddhism says I'm right
kek
When will western "buddhists" realize their religion is actually a religion and not some kind of higher truth somehow exempt from the trappings of all other religious philosophies?
There is no such thing as a sotapanna, no such thing as enlightenment, no such thing as genuine spiritual practice. Just constructs that hinder you.

[Anonymous No.17551199]

>>17551152
Not OP.
Is there such a thing as enlightenment without the preconceived notions and knowledge? Everything is futile is this world, there is nothing worth striving or fighting for.

[Anonymous No.17551216]

>>17550976
I'd like to get into UG but I'm skeptical of his assumption that physicalism is necessarily true. I'm not an idealist either, but I prefer the skeptics' epoché. Is he still worth reading or does he base his entire reasoning on this?

[Anonymous No.17551230]

>>17551216
>You never question the solutions. If you really question the solutions you will have to question the ones who have offered you those solutions. But sentimentality stands in the way of your rejecting not only the solutions, but those who have offered you the solutions. Questioning that requires a tremendous courage on your part. You can have the courage to climb the mountain, swim the lakes, go on a raft to the other side of the Atlantic or Pacific. Th at any fool can do, but the courage to be on your own, to stand on your two solid feet, is something which cannot be given by somebody. You cannot free yourself of that burden by trying to develop that courage. If you are freed from the entire burden of the entire past of mankind, then what is left there is the courage. -- U.G.

This is basically UG's whole philosophy. Read The Courage to Stand Alone. It's short and to the point.

[Anonymous No.17551234]

>>17551199
No, enlightenment in the buddhist sense relies upon unverifiable axioms, same as its equivalents in other religions. Don't fall for the "buddhism isn't a religion it's a verifiable philosophy" meme, it makes its own claims just like any other tradition

[Anonymous No.17551243]

>>17551230
This sounds like he's telling you to reject all dogma. By doing so, wouldn't you be rejecting his own take as well?

[Anonymous No.17551256]

So ... what does a free person do all day? Go to work? Watch netflix?

[Anonymous No.17551265]

>>17551256
Is that what you'd do if you didn't have your religion to fill the void?

[Anonymous No.17551266]

>>17551193
You can say such things all you like, but it doesn't substitute for genuine realization or improve your lot. If you're still bound to the senses you will suffer and this is just how it is


>>17551199
Of course, the point is to go beyond views altogether. But as the old metaphor goes, views are part of the raft that takes you to the other shore, you'd do well not to abandon them in the middle of the river, the task still unfinished

[Anonymous No.17551283]

>>17551266
Buddhism doesn't have the monopoly on genuine realization you smug dogmatist.
>If you're still bound to the senses you will suffer
You're free to believe this but you have no way to demonstrate it. For all you know once you die you enter a mode of perception that retains sensory information yet does away with the notion of suffering. All of your beliefs collapse if the alleged "four truths" aren't actually absolute and universal.
And even if they are, there's no reason to give a shit, since rebirth effectively implies obliteration of ego and consciousness. I dropped buddhism when I realized nothing in theravada, madhyamaka or anything else was actually absolute, like any other religion it's completely unverifiable

[Anonymous No.17551287]

>>17551199
In other words if there's still the slightest trace of clinging left in your heart for any form of sensuality, including thought itself, you're still not free, you're still bound for suffering and further birth at the breakup of the aggregates, because you still aren't finished, you're still clinging to existence

[Anonymous No.17551288]

>>17551266
Nothing exists without the mind. Fuck everything, I would rather roll in pain, fear and agony my whole life or when death will grab me by my throat rather than cling on to whatever helps me sleep better at night. I love my misery and unknowability of what exists beyond me.

>>17551243
Yes, UG said many times that what he says is a stimulus reaction to what people ask him. He has nothing to preach. His teaching are all interviews and talks with friends. UG had no teaching. But it still interesting to hear his perspective on matters such as enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.17551301]

>>17551265
I would indulge in moral tribalism, deceive my superiors to shave off an hour or two of my worktime, spend my free time on my art and kill myself once I've had enough fun.

[Anonymous No.17551302]

>>17551283
It is verifiable right here. Are you prone to suffering or not. Could you concieve of a situation where you would suffer.

If so, you're not free from suffering, not free from craving, not free from being bound up with the world, despite your pronouncements to the contrary, it's really that simple

[Anonymous No.17551307]

>>17551287
Prove to me rebirth exists
Prove to me the "aggregates" are an actual thing and not a construct that doesn't actually have anything to do with the system Gotama built around it
Prove to me a causal relationship between the constructs of "sensuality" and "clinging" and those of "suffering" exist
>>17551302
See above
Your posts amounts to "you're wrong because my system says so"
Your system is as worthless as any other. It does not represent any kind of absolute truth, but depends on rationality and bias. You are blind to this because you're a dumb dogmatist like I used to be.

[Anonymous No.17551312]

>>17551301
Sounds like a you problem if you're not capable of appreciating existence without a manmade framework to tell you it's gonna be worth it in the end

[Anonymous No.17551320]

>>17551302
It is verifiable right here. Are you prone to suffering or not. Could you concieve of a situation where you would suffer.

If so, you're not free from suffering, not free from original sin, not free from being distant from God, despite your pronouncements to the contrary, it's really that simple

[Anonymous No.17551328]

>>17551307
Aggregates are your experience
If your experience didn't exist you wouldn't be writing this

Your aggregates exist, therefore aggregates

The link between sensuality and suffering should be pretty clear and you can prove it by going without your preferred sensory experiences
>You are blind to this because you're a dumb dogmatist like I used to be.
Used to?

[Anonymous No.17551350]

>>17551328
You're not proving anything, you're just using words. There is nothing to prove my experience somehow consists of these "aggregates" that are somehow tied up with other concepts. This is all an illusion.
>you can prove it
So you're an empiricist then? You accept only proof from sensory experiences? Then the logical conclusion is to be a materialist reductionist, not a buddhist.
>Used to?
I don't have a dogma, unlike you I'm not peddling another bullshit religion and trying to pass it off as absolute truth. Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, new age, all of this is shit made up by people to try to rationalize something that may or may not be possible to comprehend, let alone describe using logic and words.

By the way you dodged what I said earlier, if buddhism is right then it gives me no reason to give the slightest shit about it, since the alleged "aggregates" are dissolved and rearranged upon death, and what is reborn is effectively another being entirely. So who the fuck cares.

[Anonymous No.17551356]

>>17551320
Never proposed a god
I only suggest that if you are concievably prone to suffering then you are prone to suffering which is not a great reach

[Anonymous No.17551367]

>>17551356
Prove suffering isn't an illusion
Prove what you perceive as suffering originates solely from craving and not from another arbitrary concept
You're relying on axioms and assumptions, because buddhism is a religion like any other, and you don't want to face this. If its axioms are false, i.e. if rational analysis doesn't lead to absolute truth, buddhism collapses entirely

[Anonymous No.17551379]

>>17551328
>>17551356
And by the way, dealing with suffering by avoiding it is a depressing pussy move. Basically "deal with life by not living it".
You can face life and stop being scared of death without buddhism. You can be detached from life yet still participate in it instead of rejecting everything. You can be happy instead of flagellating yourself for having emotions and enjoying your senses. Read Zhuangzi

[Anonymous No.17551390]

>>17551350
>You're not proving anything, you're just using words.

So are you

>There is nothing to prove my experience somehow consists of these "aggregates" that are somehow tied up with other concepts. This is all an illusion.

No, it's a useful linguistic framework for describing raw experience

>>you can prove it
>So you're an empiricist then? You accept only proof from sensory experiences? Then the logical conclusion is to be a materialist reductionist, not a buddhist.

Materialist reductionist isn't provable by sensory experience, only sensory experience is provable by sensory experience

Materialist reductionism is a dogma just like what you pretend to criticize


>>Used to?
>I don't have a dogma,
Materialist reductionism
>unlike you I'm not peddling another bullshit religion
Materialist reductionism
>and trying to pass it off as absolute truth.
Materialist reductionism
Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, new age, all of this is shit made up by people to try to rationalize something that may or may not be possible to comprehend,
Materialist reductionism

>let alone describe using logic and words.
Materialist reductionism
>By the way you dodged what I said earlier, if buddhism is right then it gives me no reason to give the slightest shit about it, since the alleged "aggregates" are dissolved and rearranged upon death, and what is reborn is effectively another being entirely. So who the fuck cares.

Because you suffered as a child, you suffer now and will continue to suffer being exposed to experience in whatever form human or otherwise if you don't address the fundamental root of this

We don't care about views we care about suffering and its cause

[Anonymous No.17551400]

>>17551390
>So are you
Yes, except I'm telling you your words are meaningless
>raw experience
...And your own personal biases, because my raw experience has nothing to do with what you're peddling
>Materialist reductionism
I'm not one, so all your strawman is pointless
Not having a dogma and disliking religion is being a materialist? Are you aware of how fucking retarded you sound?
>experience in whatever form
Prove rebirth exists, you can't
Prove what will be reborn is "me", you can't because even in buddhism it's wrong, and you're still dodging the question

I'm going to stop arguing with you because it's utterly pointless so let me just say this
The point is, it's all belief, whether you like it or not. Take buddhism and its "truths" to a representative of another religion and they'll tell you why it's wrong, again by using their own unverifiable beliefs as arguments.
Ironically buddhism made me more apprehensive of death back when I fell for the meme, with its pessimistic metaphysics and cosmology. You don't need all that, you'll never be able to prove it exists, you'll never be able to really know the truth until you die.
So why bother with all this shit? Just live

[Anonymous No.17551402]

>>17551367
>Prove suffering isn't an illusion
Because you experience it, which is what matters
>Prove what you perceive as suffering originates solely from craving and not from another arbitrary concept
You have to prove that to yourself by seeing with your own experience, i can't show you everything directly
>You're relying on axioms and assumptions,
I rely on experience
>because buddhism is a religion like any other,
Conventionally yes
>and you don't want to face this.
Never said this
> If its axioms are false, i.e. if rational analysis doesn't lead to absolute truth, buddhism collapses entirely

Buddhism isn't about rational analysis at all its about experience

[Anonymous No.17551407]

>>17551402
>it's all about experience
My experience tells me buddhism is bullshit
>You have to prove that to yourself
LMAO
the eternal buddhism cope. "n-no it's not unprovable, just brainwash yourself into believing in it with meditation and you'll see I'm right!"

Whatever, I'm off now.

[Anonymous No.17551421]

>>17551407
>provable
(picture)
>Whatever, I'm off now.
Wish you all the best

[Anonymous No.17551436]

>>17551421
Not him
But pic related.

[Anonymous No.17551437]

>>17551288
What conclusions did UG draw from his complete rejection of everything?

[Anonymous No.17551445]

From what I can tell, Cioran is to Camus as Camus is to Kierkegaard. I've read only Camus and Kierkegaard.
Anyone have a reading-order chart for Cioran?

[Anonymous No.17551450]

>>17551390
How do you know that when you die, all rules of logic that apply to this world don't apply anymore, and you just enter a state that is impossible to relate to material existence?
By the way direct experience isn't an answer, since it leads different people to different conclusions. Eastern orthodoxy has henosis and they definitely don't agree with Buddhists. In the end, even Buddhism relies on the circular argument that to verify its claims are true, you need to experience them for yourself by sticking to their methods, which are not guaranteed to bring you to any kind of higher truth.

[Anonymous No.17551453]

>>17551390
>>17551450
My first question is badly formulated, but it's basically a way to say that you have no way to know what happens after death, since you have no way to know if our systems of analysis are scalable to whatever lies beyond.

[Anonymous No.17551456]

>>17551437
You should listen to these interviews by the man himself. My English isn't good so I can't explain with accuracy.

https://youtu.be/lRuktPeE0eQ
https://youtu.be/EGPxlBbP30A

[Anonymous No.17551461]

>>17551456
Thanks.

[Anonymous No.17551464]

>>17551436
Echart tolle tier

If you don't want to practice and go through difficulties that's fine but don't call it nibbana just to be too lazy to make an effort or take any risk

[Anonymous No.17551470]

>>17551464
>noooooo you can't criticize my system, you're just lazy
kek UG was truly based, made literally everyone seethe

[Anonymous No.17551480]

>>17551464
>If you don't want to practice and go through difficulties
You aren't even familiar with UG's life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._G._Krishnamurti

[Anonymous No.17551497]

>>17551450
>How do you know that when you die, all rules of logic that apply to this world don't apply anymore, and you just enter a state that is impossible to relate to material existence?

I don't, i just trust the buddha who basically says how your experience is now, that's pretty much how it is later, despite changes in the particulars
After all i seem to be here now and so the total absurdity of my current life experience is best explained by the rebirth hypothesis

>By the way direct experience isn't an answer, since it leads different people to different conclusions. Eastern orthodoxy has henosis and they definitely don't agree with Buddhists. In the end, even Buddhism relies on the circular argument that to verify its claims are true, you need to experience them for yourself by sticking to their methods, which are not guaranteed to bring you to any kind of higher truth.

Yeah anything worthwhile requires faith and practice and requiring proof of how everything is gonna go before hand is a shitty way to live that will never get anyone anywhere. You might as well demand of a woman on the first date to "prove" that falling in love with her will be a worthwhile experience. Where's the passion bro.

Buddha and thousands of Arahants said there really is an end of suffering, personally I'm willing to believe them without demanding some kind of proof or logical argument

[Anonymous No.17551510]

>>17551497
>i just trust the buddha
How is this different from people who trust Jesus?
How is the rebirth hypothesis the best explanation instead of something more simple yet more unimaginable?
For all you know, you're running around trying to realize some particular truth, but when you die everything will be shattered and something entirely different will take place.
>Yeah anything worthwhile requires faith and practice
Why? Life is worthwhile as it is, do I need to believe or practice anything to experience it?
>Buddha and thousands of Arahants said there really is an end of suffering
Christ and thousands of his early followers and people who've had mystical experiences said there really is a kingdom of God and so on.
Why would you believe other people instead of yourself?

[Anonymous No.17551531]

>>17551497
If Buddhism is right and rebirth is true, I'll end up becoming enlightened eventually since samsara is infinite and there will be an infinite number of Buddhas, so I should just live my life right now since my consciousness won't be there to experience the suffering that comes after rebirth anyway.
If Buddhism is wrong and I still practice it, I've wasted my entire life chasing after a lie.

[Anonymous No.17551535]

>>17551510
>>i just trust the buddha
>How is this different from people who trust Jesus?

Because buddha encouraged questioning and confirmation of his teaching through direct experience which i do and every thing he said which i have been able to confirm has been correct so far in 7 years as a highly skeptical buddhist

>How is the rebirth hypothesis the best explanation instead of something more simple yet more unimaginable?
Like what, i mean, experience is experience, i have never experienced anything other than experience. Believing in something other than that would be gratuitous
>For all you know, you're running around trying to realize some particular truth, but when you die everything will be shattered and something entirely different will take place.

An entirely different experience, i.e. Rebirth
>>Yeah anything worthwhile requires faith and practice
>Why? Life is worthwhile as it is, do I need to believe or practice anything to experience it?
No, unless you find something inspiring like Buddhism or something. You can live your life just like any normie but you won't free yourself from suffering that way. Most people suffer a lot, don't romanticize it.
>>Buddha and thousands of Arahants said there really is an end of suffering
>Christ and thousands of his early followers and people who've had mystical experiences said there really is a kingdom of God and so on.
Maybe they did - maybe the kingdom of God is equivalent to arahantship. I don't know.
>Why would you believe other people instead of yourself?

Because there are other people who know more than I do

[Anonymous No.17551552]

>>17551531
>If Buddhism is right and rebirth is true, I'll end up becoming enlightened eventually since samsara is infinite and there will be an infinite number of Buddhas, so I should just live my life right now since my consciousness won't be there to experience the suffering that comes after rebirth anyway.
Sure but samsara is suffering, you will continue to suffer as you do now


>If Buddhism is wrong and I still practice it, I've wasted my entire life chasing after a lie.

This whole thread is about how worthless life is and now you're bringing in spooks about having wasted it. :->

[Anonymous No.17551555]

>>17551535
And practicing Christians will tell you practicing has only strengthened their own faith. What's your point?

>Believing in something other than that would be gratuitous
The least gratuitous belief would be physicalism, yet you're not a physicalist.
>An entirely different experience, i.e. Rebirth
You didn't understand what I said, reread my post.
>You can live your life just like any normie
So anyone who doesn't practice Buddhism is a clueless normie?
>Maybe they did
That would make Buddhism very inconvenient, since Christianity is much less demanding.
>Because there are other people who know more than I do
Nobody knows more about your experience than you.

[Anonymous No.17551561]

>>17551552
>you
It won't be me since it won't be the same consciousness. Why can Buddhists never address this obvious contradiction?
>This whole thread is about how worthless life is
If life is worthless, better to live a life full of satisfaction than one full of pessimism spent running after that doesn't exist.
Either way, meaningless and worthless aren't the same thing.

[Anonymous No.17551592]

>>17551555
>And practicing Christians will tell you practicing has only strengthened their own faith. >What's your point?
Good for them i guess,they experience the fruits of basic virtue and generosity and will probably be born in deva realms

>Believing in something other than that would be gratuitous
The least gratuitous belief would be physicalism, yet you're not a physicalist.
Nah, physicalism gratuitously assumes external reality of abstract material that can never be directly experienced, so it's much more gratuitous than a phenomenalogical view

It only seems less gratuitous to you because it's how you were raised

>An entirely different experience, i.e. Rebirth
>You didn't understand what I said, reread my post.
You didn't explain what you meant well enough
>You can live your life just like any normie
>So anyone who doesn't practice Buddhism is a clueless normie?
most Buddhists are clueless normies too
>Maybe they did
>That would make Buddhism very inconvenient, since Christianity is much less demanding.
Not really. Sell all you have, give to the poor and follow me?

>Because there are other people who know more than I do
>Nobody knows more about your experience than you.

Yeah but others have experienced things i haven't and I'm willing to trust them and not immediately accuse them of lying to me

[Anonymous No.17551608]

>>17551561
>>you
>It won't be me since it won't be the same consciousness. >Why can Buddhists never address this obvious contradiction?

Because it's obvious
Did you suffer as a child? Did it suck? Yes. Are you the same person as you were then? No. Do you suffer now? Yes. Does it suck now? Yes. Because you identify with experience, you suffer

>>This whole thread is about how worthless life is
>If life is worthless, better to live a life full of satisfaction than one full of pessimism spent running after that doesn't exist.
I wish you luck finding satisfaction in sensory pleasures, but I never found it there.
>Either way, meaningless and worthless aren't the same thing.
I think i agree, but In the context of the OP, they are the same thing

[Anonymous No.17551613]

>>17551592
>they experience the fruits of basic virtue and generosity and will probably be born in deva realms
Or maybe by absolving themselves of their "original sin" they're actually getting saved instead of you. You have no way to know.
>it's much more gratuitous than a phenomenalogical view
Buddhism is not the only phenomenological view.
>It only seems less gratuitous to you because it's how you were raised
I'm not a physicalist and wasn't raised by such people.
>You didn't explain what you meant well enough
No, it was pretty clear. There is no way to know if the laws of this world apply after death. What happens after death might be so outside of conventional reasoning and logic that the assumptions made by Buddhism don't even apply.
Since death is a complete unknown, this isn't more or less likely than anything else. There is no "likelihood" of anything concerning death.
>Not really. Sell all you have, give to the poor and follow me?
Pretty sure that's not Christianity and that salvation for Christians relies on the sacraments, faith, and works. I'm not a Christian so I wouldn't know, but the point is that Buddhism demands the most sacrifices out of all main religions. Reject all sensory pleasure, reject all mental pleasure, reject everything and only focus on the path.
If it all ends up being wrong, calling it a swindle would be a huge understatement.
>Yeah but others have experienced things i haven't
And you've experienced things others haven't.

[Anonymous No.17551620]

Is this thread free from all concern and strife?

[Anonymous No.17551623]

>>17551608
>Are you the same person as you were then? No.
Dodging the question again, I see.
I don't remember "my" previous lives. All main Buddhist branches say your memories and ego don't survive after death. So why should I care?
>Does it suck now? Yes.
Not enough to want to kill myself emotionally by rejecting life.
>Because you identify with experience
I don't, though. You can be detached from things without being a Buddhist.
>I wish you luck finding satisfaction in sensory pleasures
Sensory pleasures, mental pleasures, equanimity, there's a balance for all things and you don't need Buddhism to be happy.

[Anonymous No.17551630]

>>17551620
kek, man is a contradiction.

[Anonymous No.17551637]

The worst is yet to come

[Anonymous No.17551646]

>>17549237
Nihilism is simply universalism posited negatively. The real black pill is the fewness of the saved

[Anonymous No.17551652]

>>17551646
How do you know only a few are saved?
All religions who claim that are just fear-mongering. I'd be inclined to agree with such a position that isn't based on a specific religious doctrine, but then what would it be based on?

[Anonymous No.17551654]

>>17551613
>No, it was pretty clear. There is no way to know if the laws of this world apply after death. What happens after death might be so outside of conventional reasoning and logic that the assumptions made by Buddhism don't even apply.
>Since death is a complete unknown, this isn't more or less likely than anything else. >There is no "likelihood" of anything concerning death.

Ok so you're concieving of some kind of experience that is not experience. Doesn't make sense
>Not really. Sell all you have, give to the poor and follow me?
>Pretty sure that's not Christianity and that salvation for Christians relies on the sacraments, faith, and works. >I'm not a Christian so I wouldn't know, but the point is that Buddhism demands the most sacrifices out of all main religions. Reject all sensory pleasure, reject all mental pleasure, reject everything and only focus on the path.
If it all ends up being wrong, calling it a swindle would be a huge understatement.

Yeah westerners always try to wriggle out of taking anything on faith because you think you can reason everything out before hand, and you don't see that while that is a strength it is also a weakness whereby you can talk yourself out of ever doing anything outside of your preferences and preconceptions

Personally i don't call it a "huge swindle" because it's obvious to me that the real swindle is normie life : getting involved with this and that, career, money, house, wife, anxiety over these things which always just go to nothing in the end. What could be more obvious than the fact that worldly strivings are a pointless struggle that ends in tears

[Anonymous No.17551655]

>>17551646
So Calvin was right then?

[Anonymous No.17551674]

>>17551623
>So why should I care?
Because you have suffering whether coarse or subtle
>>Does it suck now? Yes.
>Not enough to want to kill myself emotionally by rejecting life.
I never asked you to reject life whatever that means
>>Because you identify with experience
>I don't, though. You can be detached from things without being a Buddhist.
If you don't identify with experience, you're an arahant

A lot of people who think they are arahants turn out to be wrong
>>I wish you luck finding satisfaction in sensory pleasures
>Sensory pleasures, mental pleasures, equanimity, there's a balance for all things and you don't need Buddhism to be happy.

No if you prefer stoicism or something that's fine but you're still fundamentally practicing the same thing whether you call it Buddhism or whatever else

Epictetus's fundamental doctrine is basically buddhist anatta

[Anonymous No.17551677]

>>17551654
>you're concieving of some kind of experience that is not experience. Doesn't make sense
Then nirvana doesn't make sense? It just seems to me that you lack vision. Nothing indicates our current mode of experience is the only possible one.
>westerners always try to wriggle out of taking anything on faith
Why should I take your faith-based claims instead of literally any others?
I have faith, but only faith in my own experiences, that lead me to certain beliefs. All the rest, I am skeptical about.
>getting involved with this and that, career, money, house, wife, anxiety
I'm not involved in any of those, or to a small extent, and none cause me anxiety. Yet I'm not a Buddhist. So you're not describing a problem that only Buddhism can fix, here.
>worldly strivings are a pointless struggle that ends in tears
Yes, there's no point to getting attached to worldly things because we're all going to die. This doesn't mean you can't enjoy them while they last, that you can't appreciate the world for how ugly yet sometimes beautiful it is.
I don't feel the need to cope with the cruelty of existence by subscribing to Buddhism. It's all going to end eventually, anyway. While it lasts, I'll take things as they come.

Honestly I feel the exact same thing while talking to you than when I'm talking to a Christian or any other religious person. You have your beliefs, you think they're the truth (makes sense) but you're not capable of seeing why they might not be. You have logical arguments that inevitably boil down to personal interpretation since in the end, you can't truly be sure of anything.
I'd rather live. If you find genuine happiness in Buddhism, good for you, but if (like many westerners) you make yourself miserable for the sake of some vague idea of nirvana as a reward, I hope you snap out of it.

[Anonymous No.17551688]

>>17551674
>Because you have suffering
Still dodging the question. What is reborn isn't me, I don't experience it.
>I never asked you to reject life whatever that means
That's literally what the Buddha says you should to. Reject all pleasures, whether sensory or mental, reject everything, only practice the path.
>If you don't identify with experience, you're an arahant
Guess I'm an arahant then. Wow, that was simple. Maybe I should give talks and become a guru.
> if you prefer stoicism or something
I prefer pyrrhonism but even that I'm not especially attached to.
The point is, you don't need some kind of ideology or religion to subscribe to, you don't need to practice something.

[Anonymous No.17551762]

>>17551677
>Then nirvana doesn't make sense?
Nirvana is just the cessation of craving, just that.

>It just seems to me that you lack vision. Nothing indicates our current mode of experience is the only possible one.
Well alright i don't talk metaphysics because i don't see how it's useful
>Why should I take your faith-based claims instead of literally any others?
>All the rest, I am skeptical about.
Me too buddy. That's why i ended up as a buddhist
>getting involved with this and that, career, money, house, wife, anxiety
>I'm not involved in any of those, or to a small extent, and none cause me anxiety.

Lose everything, all your money, all your status, and come back and tell me that. When you're out on the street subject to intense pain and anguish the fearfulness and danger of the sensory world will come howling back at you

>Yet I'm not a Buddhist. So you're not describing a problem that only Buddhism can fix, here.
Noble eightfold path whatever the trappings is the path to the end of suffering
>This doesn't mean you can't enjoy them while they last, that you can't appreciate the world for how ugly yet sometimes beautiful it is.
Romantic cope. Being blind and hungry isn't beautiful. Being born disfigured isn't beautiful. Death isn't beautiful. Visit a homeless shelter, visit the morgue. You need a dose of the harsh side of samsara

>I don't feel the need to cope with the cruelty of existence by subscribing to Buddhism.
Ok, but don't think you're not coping other ways.
>It's all going to end eventually, anyway. While it lasts, I'll take things as they come.
You tell yourself that but when death really comes, do you think you'll be prepared?


>Honestly I feel the exact same thing while talking to you than when I'm talking to a Christian or any other religious person.
I am a religious person
>You have your beliefs, you think they're the truth (makes sense) but you're not capable of seeing why they might not be.
Ok, if you say so, i could say the same thing of you
>You have logical arguments that inevitably boil down to personal interpretation since in the end, you can't truly be sure of anything.
So do you, but you don't want to apply the same radical doubt to your own conceptions
>I'd rather live.
Okay i never asked you not to live idk why everyone suggest that you should die or something
>If you find genuine happiness in Buddhism, good for you, but if (like many westerners) you make yourself miserable for the sake of some vague idea of nirvana as a reward, I hope you snap out of it.
No but there is some suffering on the path. Sense restraint and keeping the five and especially eight precepts can be extremely difficult but they are fundamental to higher advancement into jhana and unworldly happiness

The same notion exists in many spiritual traditions - to go beyond sense pleasures you have to cross the spiritual desert with faith before you reach the true happiness that lies beyond

Good luck
Be well

[Anonymous No.17551807]

>>17551762
>Nirvana is just the cessation of craving
And it's also described in many ways apophatically that point to it being an incomprehensible state of existence, parinirvana especially. But whatever.
>Me too buddy. That's why i ended up as a buddhist
My experience doesn't point me towards buddhism. That illustrates what I said about only trusting your own experience.
>Lose everything, all your money, all your status, and come back and tell me that
I guarantee you I don't give the slightest shit. I'm already poor as fuck, I have no status, but I look around me and I'm happier than most people I know.
>Noble eightfold path whatever the trappings is the path to the end of suffering
You can't know that.
>Romantic cope.
"Bro you need a harsh dose of reality" come the fuck on. How is Buddhism itself not a monumental cope? You're rejecting everything because you don't want to be hurt.
>don't think you're not coping other ways.
Who cares? Everything is a cope if you want to go that way. I live a simple life. I'm going to suffer and die, but in the meantime I'm also going to be happy. You can deny life all you want if that's what you think will bring you salvation, but it's just a path among others, not "the" path.
>You tell yourself that but when death really comes, do you think you'll be prepared?
Yeah. And if I'm not, who cares? In the end it'll be okay.
>I am a religious person
Yeah, I can tell.
>i could say the same thing of you
You don't know my beliefs aside from the fact that I believe Buddhism is false. And I am definitely capable of seeing why it might be right, seeing as I used to subscribe to the doctrine.
>you don't want to apply the same radical doubt to your own conceptions
Of course I do, and did. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll never know until I die, so why worry?
> i never asked you not to live
Rejecting everything other than the bare necessities to keep you alive and spending your entire time chasing attainments a dead Indian talked about 2600 years ago isn't living, it's just existing, surviving.
>The same notion exists in many spiritual traditions
And in the end nobody knows.

Good luck to you.

[Anonymous No.17551815]

>>17551688
>What is reborn isn't me, I don't experience it.
Yes you do. Do you have experience now? You experience it.
>That's literally what the Buddha says you should to. Reject all pleasures, whether sensory or mental, reject everything, only practice the path.
In the ultimate sense yes if you wanna practice for arahantship. However, the buddha also taught laypeople with wives and children and just the five precepts as a minimum
>>If you don't identify with experience, you're an arahant
>Guess I'm an arahant then. Wow, that was simple. Maybe I should give talks and become a guru.
You're not an arahant, please don't say that. It's quite embarassing
>> if you prefer stoicism or something
>I prefer pyrrhonism but even that I'm not especially attached to.
>The point is, you don't need some kind of ideology or religion to subscribe to, you don't need to practice something.
You think so because you live a comfortable first-world modern life and don't experience desperation and don't encounter suffering or death often and when you do it's sanitized away and hidden in hospitals and homeless shelters

However, when the time comes to experience illness, aging and death, you will suffer if you haven't prepared yourself

[Anonymous No.17551843]

>>17551815
>Yes you do.
If I don't have the memories and my ego is gone, it's not me. If you tell me one of my previous births used to be a warrior that was tortured to death, I won't give a shit, I have no memories of the pain. It wasn't me, just like the next life won't be me. So I don't give a shit.
>the buddha also taught laypeople with wives and children and just the five precepts
The goal is exactly the same. And I already "practice" the five precepts, it's really easy to do so.
In Buddhism if you're not at least a stream-enterer you're worthless, laypeople are pretty much just coping by aiming for deva realms. It's an extremely pessimistic religion.
>You're not an arahant, please don't say that.
Are you incapable of catching sarcasm? The point is it doesn't fucking matter. You're chasing after this distant ideal that may or may not even exist. Who cares about arahantship and buddhahood and all this other stuff?
>You think so because you live a comfortable first-world modern life
Yeah, maybe I'd think otherwise if my life was shit. But it's not, so I don't.
This is just the same as the abrahamic fear tactics by the way. "You haven't suffered yet but you will in the next life, so follow my religion!" Ridiculous.
>you will suffer if you haven't prepared yourself
Yes, I will, and then it'll be over.
You will suffer as well, because don't kid yourself, you're not going to "become an arahant". You'll reach some higher states of relaxation and serenity that you will take to be spiritual milestones, which will improve your life and allow you to cope with pain more easily, and then you will still suffer and die.

[Anonymous No.17551850]

>>17551843
>and then it'll be over.
Do you know that for sure, or is that your faith

[Anonymous No.17551860]

>>17549274

what the fuck is up with all these pseud christcucks, jesus

[Anonymous No.17551861]

>>17551850
Whether or not Buddhism is right, the result will be the same
>physicalism: when you die it's all over
>buddhism: when you die your consciousness and ego are destroyed but uuuuh it's like lighting a candle with another candle and uuuh it's not really you but it's not not you either so please convert

[Anonymous No.17551870]

>>17551861
>it's all over

It's not the same as

>continuation

[Anonymous No.17551876]

>>17551870
It's all over for me anyway
No consciousness, no ego = no me, no matter how you want to spin it and argue around the point, this is a fact
When I'm under anaesthesia I'm unconscious and have no memory, so you can do anything you want to me and I won't care
Therefore death in buddhism is pretty much the same as death for nihilists except buddhism adds some fluff on top of it to convince you that it's worth following

[Anonymous No.17551883]

>>17549218
same, but it was depression now cioran

[Anonymous No.17551911]

>>17551815
A lot of people in the third world have garbage lives full of suffering and yet they manage to find solace in the small things, and aren't depressed whiny faggots

[Anonymous No.17551922]

>>17549218
What should I read from him? I only read "on the heights of despair" or whatever it's called.

[Anonymous No.17551984]

>>17551911
It's because most of them have a God to fill the Void. Without God, living in a 3rd world shithole is insufferable.

[Anonymous No.17552003]

>>17549218
Cioran is a life denying cuck and a utterly defeated man that is so utterly destroyed that he cannot comprehend beauty anymore. There is literally nothing you can learn from this man, except what not to be.

[Anonymous No.17552010]

>>17552003
Please recommend some life affirming philosophers that aren't deluding themselves

[Anonymous No.17552034]

>>17552010
Define "deluding themselves"? I'd rather be someone who realizes that truth must have no inherent value to life, than to be someone that is destroyed by the truth, whatever that may be.

I would unironically recommend Nietzsche, but if you cannot bear life and you come to an understanding that there is nothing left for you here, then suicide is a viable and noble option. Better than polluting the world like the snake Cioran did.

[Anonymous No.17552043]

>>17552034
>deluding themselves
I mean the people who go "sometimes there are sunsets and those are nice so let's disregard all the heinous shit happening in the world"
I want a life-affirming yet realistic take. Is Nietzsche for me?
>you come to an understanding that there is nothing left for you here
Why would I?

[Anonymous No.17552055]

>>17549218
your post sounds like some crypto-Buddhist shit

My guy if you want to be devoid of meaning so much just read Buddhism or something. Also, Cioran is a loser and all his philosophy is a cope for being a loser. It is obvious to assume you´re a loser as well for finding his philosophy so attractive.

I could write a huge effort post to explain why you´re a loser faggot but sometimes just one word is needed: Cope

[Anonymous No.17552058]

>>17552043
Yes, Nietzsche is not denying that there is suffering in life, but his take is a life affirming one and it's no "live, love, laugh" philosophy if you want to see it like that. It's more about loving one's own fate, and being the most you can possibly be. Something along the lines of the Title of his last published book Ecce Homo: how One becomes what One is.

I'd start with the Genealogy of Morals to ease myself in if I was you, the "positivist" phase (Human, all too Human, Daybreak, The Gay Science) is very good as well. Zarathustra is the book where most of his ideas, that are referenced and better explained in other works, are laid out in a Bible like and messianic tone. Whatever you do, don't read Zarathustra first if you haven't read any Nietzsche before.

[Anonymous No.17552059]

>>17552055
Not him, what do you mean by loser and what's your philosophy?

[Anonymous No.17552062]

>>17552055
Everything a man do is a cope, retarded fucking redditor subhuman.

[Anonymous No.17552064]

>>17552055

[Anonymous No.17552077]

>>17552058
Was Nietzsche a materialist? I realized I really don't know shit about him aside from the memes
I was actually thinking of starting with Zarathustra, thanks for the warning.
>loving one's own fate, and being the most you can possibly be
In what regard? Worldly achievements, or personal fulfillment?

[Anonymous No.17552095]

>>17552058
What is the point of loving your fate and enduring suffering? And for whom?

[Anonymous No.17552097]

>>17552077
Not really, but judging for his regard to works such as Lange's history of materialism he was aware of the tradition and saw many materialistic philosophers as interesting. Although he probably was mostly impressed by Heraclitus in the presocratic period. He was also very fond of Epicurus.

I would say that Nietzsche is all about finding your own way, "He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how." On a grander philosophical scale he was mostly anticipating the rise of Nihilism and trying to find ways to overcome nihilism after the Death of God, or better said, or metaphysical worldview, and to help humanity create new values from themselves.

[Anonymous No.17552108]

This thread ruined by two autists arguing with each other.

[Anonymous No.17552113]

>>17552108
Blame buddhism for becoming the new /lit/ meme
I miss Stirner larping

[Anonymous No.17552122]

>>17552097
So can he be assimilated to existentialists then?
>He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how
Why did he dislike religion, if that's what he said? I don't really get what the ubermensch and the slave morality is all about, I understand he wanted people to create their own values but isn't the process of coming with your values subjective and dependent on what gives you meaning personally?

[Anonymous No.17552134]

>>17552097
>On a grander philosophical scale he was mostly anticipating the rise of Nihilism
No, Pessimism was already on rise with the philosophy of Schopenhauer and he stole the idea of Death of G-d from Mainländer.
He was a filthy humanist faggot who never practiced what he preached.

[Anonymous No.17552135]

>>17552122
Antichrist and all that aside, which is a rather hefty critique to Christianity and the whole Rome vs Judea thing I don't think he was so much against religion per se. Maybe that was the whole tradition (French moralists, enlightenment and all that) speaking through him. But I think he realized that there is no going back to metaphysical worldviews as such for humanity and that Nihilism is coming anyway. Religion is no solution anymore, there is no point in trying to fit it into something that's coming.

[Anonymous No.17552144]

>>17552135
>there is no going back to metaphysical worldviews as such for humanity
He thought there could be no resurgence of metaphysical beliefs as opposed to pure material reductionism? But even right now we're seeing a rekindling of the interest for religions, even if it's often motivated by politics.
It's difficult to imagine coming up with values that are neither derived from religion nor disintegrated by nihilism.

[Anonymous No.17552160]

>>17552134
No one denies that he was influenced by Schopenhauer, not even him. Mainlander said that God is dead but the philosophical premises are radically different with a guy that saw suicide as a solution to humanities problem.

>>17552144
>But even right now we're seeing a rekindling of the interest for religions
I would say we're not and I'd agree with Spengler that were seeing a rise in interest for cheap metaphysics and shallow quasi-religious practices. Even the people that seem firm in their religion from backward parts of the world are only a generation away from experiencing nihilism if they lived in a European society.

[Anonymous No.17552164]

>>17552160
Also, it's not about personal religious feeling per se, but the fact that we will never be able to return to a world that is globally shaped by a metaphysical worldview and a big daddy figure that we base our morality and civilization on

[Anonymous No.17552171]

>>17552160
>cheap metaphysics and shallow quasi-religious practices.
How do you distinguish those from legitimate religion?
Maybe this question is of interest to me because I'm not religious yet I've never felt crushed by nihilism and have actually never paid much attention to it. Perhaps (it's likely) this stems from my ignorance and immaturity, but I retain a level of faith in the inherent value of life that is neither shaped by religious sentiment nor eroded by nihilism.

[Anonymous No.17552184]

>>17552171
I'm mostly thinking that people are getting back into religion not from a profound feeling of thirst for God or Christ, but as a reaction to everyday politics and the things happening around them. When I say cheap metaphysics I'm mostly thinking about Tarot cards, self-help "philosophy", astrology, housewife views of Karma and similar concepts. Anything taken without a tradition as face value concepts on how to live.

[Anonymous No.17552189]

>>17552184
I would argue most religious people on /lit/ alone do not fit that definition (despite the vocal tradcath larper minority), and it would surprise me that most religious people in society in general did, but maybe I'm completely wrong.

[Anonymous No.17552233]

>>17552134
Why did you call God G-d ?

Yahweh yeah way YHWH

Is

Yeshua's

Bitch

For all of eternity

Because Yeshua has billions of followers!

[Anonymous No.17552318]

>>17552233
based schizo(?)

[Anonymous No.17552449]

>>17552160
>>17552171
I do see religion making a sort of comeback, even excluding the tradcath shitposting and the new right movement. In Europe, at least a bit on the eastern side, Hungary, Poland and to an extent Austria are ruled by the Catholic boomer. Those catholic boomers do practice their religion even if the so-called catholic members of government they vote in do not. These boomers do send their daughters and sons to denominational schools, and depending on their environment and mental disposition these children just stay unquestioningly obedient to their parish. Half of my past middle-schoolmates are married, most of them have children and never even attempted to go to university, never pursued learning a second language, and they are content with their 9-5. All devout christians, of course. I have nothing against them, I don't mean to demean these people as inferior, but it is something incredibly dim to look at from the outside. Outside of Budapest, (where I currently live) almost the entire Hungarian countryside is homogenous in this regard.

[Anonymous No.17552639]

Work
Save $
Spend $ on high priced MALE hooker whose life I eviscerate
Rest on roulette
Repeat

[Anonymous No.17552924]

>>17550976
>the same conclusion but through UG Krishnamurti
I will check him out. I have a book by the other Krishnamurti "freedom from the known" but I may have purchased by mistake


>>17551152
>It takes decades of spiritual practice to truly get to this point without just being depressed
I've had some events happen in my life unexpectedly, that usually don't happen to people. I'll leave it at that. But also >spiritual. I do appreciate the input but I have no spirit
>If you think you're so enlightened it's usually a sign of how you are still held up on personality
my intent is only to upset and intrigue anons, which is the way of 4chan

>>17551179
>>17551193
Cioran specifically says that westerners cannot just get ""instant india" and become Buddhist or taoist. He spends the very first pages of The Temptation to Exist shitting on these people and their hypocrisy

[Anonymous No.17553133]

>>17552924
You can live according to taoist philosophy without even being a taoist in the religious sense.

[Anonymous No.17553233]

>>17551620
op here, I didn't post any of this shit

[Anonymous No.17553245]

>>17553233
>>17551922

[Anonymous No.17553339]

>>17551922
>What should I read from him? I only read "on the heights of despair" or whatever it's called
I haven't read this one yet but I started with "A short history of decay" which is basically anti-politics, anti-vanity, anti-meaning. He was freshly an ex-fascist when he wrote it, so that is the vibe. Maybe the first step is taking up since ideological banner, go as far as you can with it, then when you're feeling like it was a mistake, read it. Could be a good exercise at least. I know people here slowly ping pong around from different ideologies looking for the "correct" one.

>>17552003
>a life denying cuck and a utterly defeated man that is so utterly destroyed that he cannot comprehend beauty anymore.
I'm interested in criticism of him desu. what is life denial? and then there's "what is beauty?" but let's not get into that yet..

>>17552055
>just read Buddhism or something. Also, Cioran is a loser and all his philosophy is a cope for being a loser.
Cioran himself rejects the idea that westerners can become buddhist or a taoist. It's not in our racial constitution. He says we must arrive at the same place from our own path. At this point I believe the possibility of meaning of itself a cope, because the alternative is too hard for most people to stomach

>>17552108
It's funny though. Buddhism is explicitly rejected in the first pages of The Temptation to Exist, which is titled a as a sort of jab against existentialism I think

>>17552449
Hungary sounds nice from the news I hear about it. Seeming like the smartest people in Europe.
I think religion is good for a lot of people, since a lot of them would engage in self destructive behavior if, for insurance, Cioran was the national theme. Religion is sort of an evolutionary retirement for a successful nation.
But individually you can step away from it all and just be in it. People are going to do what people do, nothing will change it, especially not adoption of some "better" religion or ideology to replace traditionalism with.

[Anonymous No.17553361]

>>17553339
>evolutionary retirement
requirement, I mean

[Anonymous No.17553392]

>>17549218
It won't last

[Anonymous No.17553546]

>>17549274
>Pessimism is just a justification for hedonism. Prove me wrong.
Schopenhaurian asceticism is literally the opposite, retard

[Anonymous No.17553563]

>>17553546
Being an ascetic is as much of a cope as being a hedonist
In either case you're running away

[Anonymous No.17553905]

>>17553546
Cioran has good things to say about buddha and schopenhauer but I'm totally unfamiliar with the schopenhauer connection.

> We dislike following, or leading, to its conclusion a depressing train of thought, however unassailable; we resist it just when it affects our entrails, at the point where it becomes malaise, truth and disaster of the flesh. — No sermon of the Buddha, no page of Schopenhauer fails to turn my stomach

[Anonymous No.17553925]

>>17552924
>I will check him out.
Yes you should.
For me UG is an Eastern Cioran. But where Cioran respected Buddhism and attacked Christianity, UG went ahead attached enlightenment and every religion.

[Anonymous No.17553995]

>>17553563
kek you don't know what you're talking about you fucking retard

[Anonymous No.17554035]

>>17553995
ok "western buddhist" lmfao

[Anonymous No.17554110]

>>17553925
I'm sold. I'll read him in March. Is there a UG book you recommend first?

[Anonymous No.17554395]

>>17549218
Cioran is mostly stupid egoism, in my opinion. This obsession with the scope of the self, even if it is presented in the negative, is always just a pursuit of self-gratification, by other means. Cioran is at his best when he speaks to this very instinct, as he says somewhere "I don't need drugs because I have my anxiety."

It's always important to remember that depression provides a certain self-satisfaction. "Real" negativity has nothing to do with the self whatsoever, and certainly no relation to anxiety, depression etc. I think Cioran is pretty easily refuted by reading Levinas, not to mention Hegel or Kant. Negative theology also has a lot more to offer than Cioran's crypto-existentialism, in my opinion. Plotinus and Pseudo-Dionysus are typical entry points, though good contemporary writing on the topic can also be found from Jean Luc Marion and John Caputo.

[Anonymous No.17554401]

>>17554110
UG himself never wrote any book. All of "his" book contain the interviews he gave to other people. The Mystique of Enlightenment and The Courage to Stand Alone are his best books. But man it's such a charm to hear UG because he was a really good speaker who spoke with extreme clarity. So I would also recommend you to listen these >>17551456 interviews.
The Mystique of Enlightenment would be a really good because in it he briefly talked about his "spiritual journey", famous 20th century Gurus and his philosophy.

[Anonymous No.17554460]

>>17554395
Who the fuck isn't an egoist in this world? Fuck you and your systemic exploiter hacks. Cioran pissed on sacred halls of philosophy and every tyrant siting in it.

[Anonymous No.17554621]

>>17554460
"everybody is the same" "sadness is the only truth" "I already know everything"

yeah, sure...

also lol at this line about pissing, as if Cioran was some radical figure and not just a lightweight Kierkegaard

you should read Nietzsche, you're gonna love him

[Anonymous No.17554705]

>>17554621
Fuck off back to plebbit you dumb cunt.

[Anonymous No.17554710]

>>17554035
confirmed 16.

[Anonymous No.17554715]

>>17554710
confirmed western buddhist KEK

[Anonymous No.17554744]

Was it Cioran who wrote

"If all Fridays are like this, I'll kill myself some Thursday?"

[Anonymous No.17554837]

>>17552449
Not everyone is meant to live like an elite scholar-adventurer anon. Having a responsible and conscientious plebian class is a symbol of a strong society.

[Anonymous No.17555244]

>Died from Alzheimer's at 84
Fucking cringelord pseud.

[Anonymous No.17555465]

>>17555244
>>Died from Alzheimer's at 84
Fuck how do I make sure I don't end up like this too bros? Alzheimer's is fucking terrifying I don't want to go like that

[Anonymous No.17555611]

>>17555465
He larped as depressed loner but it bited him in his ass at the end. Don't do the same... have a productive job be a normal member of society have an active social life don't think you are God's gift to earth. Lift and eat healthily.
That's how you remain sharp until the end

[Anonymous No.17556276]

>>17555611
>He larped as depressed loner but it bited him in his ass at the end.
>>17555244

he had a very active social life, many mistresses, is famous, and might be the greatest non-lying philosopher of all time.
And here he is smiling with his biographer.
methinks the pseuds have been t r i g g e r e d

[Anonymous No.17556584]

>>17556276
>he had a very active social life, many mistresses, is famous,
Doesn't matter in the slightest if deep inside he believed he was the one top tier dog above the others by virtue of his unique 2depressed4u disposition and ability.

[Anonymous No.17556863]

>>17556584
>deep inside he believed he was the one top tier dog above the others
I mean, he was. But his writing and ideas do not reflect this one bit. You haven't read him, obviously

[Anonymous No.17556888]

>>17551861
>>17551876
based, buddhism is crypto-nihilism and most of its followers are people who are materialistic and atheistic yet don't want to feel like they are those things

[Anonymous No.17558089]

>>17550298

This sort of grousing is completely ineffective when directed against English speakers, and is rather a manifestation of the average /lit/ user's insecurity at not knowing all the major European languages. I'm not missing out on Cioran's French prose style.

[Anonymous No.17558657]

>>17551646
sounds gnostic

[Anonymous No.17558688]

>>17549218
Finally a Cioran poster not talking about killing himself. Cioran lived his life joyfully, you're not supposed to get a deathwish from reading him.

[Anonymous No.17558702]

>>17549334
all that it did for you was turn you into a melodramatic larper.
life is meaningless? WOAH. who would have thought we ascribe human-value onto inherently meaningless things? ... as if meaning is something written off in nature. lmao
christfags cope harder

[Anonymous No.17558772]

>>17552095
If you have to ask that it's probably too late for you. I don't say this out of contempt or anything, but only you can change your own perspective on this. Rationalizing everything inevitably leads to nihilism for animals are not born of rationality alone.

[Anonymous No.17558784]

>>17552639
grant us more schizo wisdom, please master

[Anonymous No.17558905]

>>17555611
But I'm not interested in people and in society.

[Anonymous No.17558916]

>>17549274
Embarrassing

[Anonymous No.17558977]

>>17549218
Un-philosophical pseud that just wanted to be depressed all the time. I'm sure he says some interesting things, but all of human history goes against his stupid and retardating ideas.

[Anonymous No.17558987]

>>17552003
People who affirm life in all situations are the actual cucks because you are only doing that because you have no choice, it doesn't mean you're happy with your situation, you are forced to do it or to suffer even more. If I am unhappy with the cards I've been dealt then I won't affirm it, fuck life.

[Anonymous No.17559005]

>>17558977
>Un-philosophical pseud
Retarded subhuman. Have you even read The Temptation to Exist?

[Anonymous No.17559011]

>>17558977
Only because human history sweeps it under the rug. It's literally inherent to the design of the world, wherein a creature evolves when it is most fit to survive in this world, a society evolves when it is most fit to survive. If a creature or a society were to think like Cioran then they would not survive. It's survivorship bias to the extreme.

[Anonymous No.17559537]

>>17551367
It gets worse, without endless rebirth, suicide and murder are valid and even compassionate solutions to problems.

[Anonymous No.17559547]

>>17558987
Keep telling yourself that, Last man.

[Anonymous No.17559729]

>>17559537
Taoism is buddhism done right

[Anonymous No.17560704]

Funny how the cioran edgy aspies are shitting on buddhism when cioran himself talked highly of it almost the entire book is dedicated to buddhism/hinduis. He saw it as a last final possible cope worth trying. He rejected every single other philosophy, ideology.

He also shitted on buddhism aswell btw but that was in his youth. I guess op didnt read his last book.

[Anonymous No.17560746]

>>17560704
To summ it up what he says:
>monks are noble
>becoming a monk is a good cope for people disgusted with society
>is disgusted on how society views monks as parasites nowadays
>why think at all when thought is nothing but destructive and we think just because of pleasure
>thinking only helps at first to gain certain insights and destroy all attachements
>after that we can continue to try to kill the ego
>is it worth trying it if we truly dont believe in reincarnation?
>is worth putting in all the effort of meditation?
>yes it is. Nothing to lose he says.

[Anonymous No.17560767]

>>17549218
I'm at the end of all thought now that I've read and understood Cioran. He is the Exit door, so to speak. I am free from all concern and strife. Free from the fear of death, free from the need for meaning. All my supposed dreams were burdens this whole time. My world is mine too use, waste, gamble, or protect. Politics are irrelevant now. The future is irrelevant. My life, irrelevant. I'm not coping. I was doing well before Cioran and I'm doing "better" after, if those words mean anything. I am free from meaning. I couldn't go back if I tried.

[Anonymous No.17560780]

>>17560704
>>17560746
What a fag.
I'll go with young Cioran.

[Anonymous No.17560786]

>>17560704
kek he went full rambo on buddhism in his 20s. one could say hypocrite but people views change in the span of 30 years.

take notes op and stop sucking so many dicks

[Anonymous No.17560798]

>>17560704
>>17560746
Btfo'd, nicely done. Will look into cioran now

[Anonymous No.17560827]

>>17560780
You are free to identify with your ego projections, sensory experiences and the miserable prison cell that provides it, just as you are to look beyond it anon-kun.

[Anonymous No.17560882]

>>17551367
Read schopenhauer you no brained single cell parasite or read cioran at age of 50 and not in his 23 years old sleep depraved shizo state of mind.

[Anonymous No.17561042]

>>17560882
Seethe harder. I don't give a fuck about your life-denying cope religion, go starve yourself instead of breaking my balls

[Anonymous No.17561059]

The buddhalarpers have arrived
>>17560746
What a garbage take.
>life is hard sometimes so become a literal vegetable
I'm glad I didn't fall for the buddhism death cult

[Anonymous No.17561079]

>>17560827
You don't need buddhism to know these things are temporary and not be too attached to them. This whole system of rejecting all pleasure and all happiness is a literal mind virus.
This >>17559729 is true, you can have everything good about buddhism and none of the life denying bullshit, Zhuangzi tackles the same issues but doesn't tell you to shave your head and go sit in the woods because muh idam dukkham

[Anonymous No.17561162]

>>17561042
I dont believe in reincarnation or any mystic enlightenment my man. Im denying pain, not life. You are denying life and suffering while at it.

Samatha, basic mindfullness, insight meditation will all alter your life experience and make you sensible, deconditioning your nervous system so you dont have to resort to shitposting to derive pleasure and self worth by identifing with your projections. In this case some young confused autor.

Buddhism will teach you how your mind works and teach you who you are. Meditation is science based. Look up countless brain scan studies. This isnt a blind religion founded by fear like christianity. You dont even have to call yourself buddhist but following the buddhist teachings will make you a happier individual. Thats all.

[Anonymous No.17561221]

>>17561162
What the hell are you talking about? I'm not denying anything, on the contrary, I don't accept this garbage take according to which because pain exists I should curl up into a ball and avoid everything good as well.
>samatha
I meditate regularly. You're the one who seems irked by my dismissal of buddhism.
>Buddhism will teach you how your mind works and teach you who you are
kek no it won't. It'll tell you you're a bundle of ephemeral processes and that because these things are impermanent and allegedly suffering you should reject all of them and meditate until you brick your brain.
>This isnt a blind religion founded by fear like christianity.
Are you sure about that?
>if you don't follow me you'll keep being reborn and suffering eternally
And no, following buddhism will not make you happier.
Source: tried it, made me miserable, dropped it. Before one of the "western" buddhist redditors on this board says I "just didn't understand it" or that I "was just a hedonist", both are wrong, I went into it sincerely and diligently and got nothing from it, just misery.
The only things buddhism teaches that'll make you happier are the parts of the N8P that are basically common sense. All the rest that pertains to the religion itself is bullshit

[Anonymous No.17561335]

>>17561221
>The future is irrelevant. My life, irrelevant.No meaning
Sounded pretty life denying to me atleast but my bad then.

>you should reject all of them and meditate until you brick your brain.
Didnt you say you realised your dreams are burdens?

Anyway maybe you were just romantizing a little. Im curious on how you spend your day now after being liberated on your way and not fearing death and with no will to meaning and since buddhism didnt workout for you

Im legit curious

[Anonymous No.17561357]

>>17561335
I'm not OP, I didn't say these things.
Also after dropping buddhism I just have a more simple outlook on life.

[Anonymous No.17561502]

>>17558688
>Finally a Cioran poster not talking about killing himself. Cioran lived his life joyfully, you're not supposed to get a deathwish from reading him
He specifically calls suicide "a positive act" : only a failed optimist world ever kill themselves. It's explicit but people seem to ignore it.

I think the real path is waiting for death without vain striving, anticipating it and finding comfort in it. Regardless I think readying yourself for death is the key use of philosophy in general and will solve a lot of our maladaptive behaviors

[Anonymous No.17561571]

>>17558987
>If I am unhappy with the cards I've been dealt then I won't affirm it, fuck life.
Based.
This is so common the SJWs even have a term for it "toxic positivity" - a lot of them engage in it.
"will-to-power" trads and religious types are similar in how they very aggressively defend their chosen security blanket

[Anonymous No.17561581]

>>17559011
>If a creature or a society were to think like Cioran then they would not survive. It's survivorship bias to the extreme.
pic related
source: Cioran

[Anonymous No.17561602]

>>17549277
>>17549334
Sounds like the Ashtavakra Gita funnily enough, except for saying you are disappointed. That bit ruins the whole thing.

[Anonymous No.17561628]

>>17558987
you are still affirming it by staying alive and posting on 4chan to cope through existence. pathetic.

k y s

[Anonymous No.17561632]

>>17561079
>life denying bullshit
not once has this been defined. fucking define it if you want to talk about it

[Anonymous No.17561658]

>>17561502
He was a poser. He never dared to actually advocate suicide IRL. There's no congruency between his writings and his life.

[Anonymous No.17561729]

>>17561658
uh huhhhh. yeah. but. huh? what?

[Anonymous No.17561862]

Call me a normie or retarded but only after getting into buddhist insights i finally stopped buying luxury watches, getting high in pattaya and cutting bodyweight to single digit %. I obviously had some self esteem issues to begin with but i legitamely thought i just had to keep progress in any desire and at some point i will finally be happy. I felt 90% miserable and 10% was the short relief. Only after affirming said experience with buddhist and some roman stuff like seneca i was finally free of this bullshit cycle and can rest in peace knowing nothing out there can satisfy me. I still engage in some pleasure and minimal goals but the pain is all weakened when you know the principle of it and dont expect too much or anythint at all out of it

[Anonymous No.17561906]

>>17561502
How do you truly ready yourself for death?

[Anonymous No.17561916]

>>17561862
Knowing hedonism is stupid and that it's better to not be too attached to worldly things isn't Buddhism, it's just growing up

[Anonymous No.17561938]

>>17561916
I wasnt even aware of the word hedonism before getting into this stuff

[Anonymous No.17561942]

>>17561632
Just check the suttas my dude
>worldly pleasures are bad, meditate instead
>pleasant thoughts are bad, meditate instead
>everything that brings you joy is actually bad, meditate instead
Fuck that shit. Taoism is much more humane and less autistic

[Anonymous No.17561967]

>>17561916
And i dont see too many friends or relatives or people in general growing up so any buddhist book wont harm.

[Anonymous No.17562014]

>>17561967
I agree if you stay pragmatic and secular about it
Unironically the diluted zen imported by Watts or the feel good philosophy of Thich Nhat Hahn are better than actual buddhism

[Anonymous No.17562116]

>>17562014
Oh the first book i read was indeed from thich lmao. But it still lacked some proper meditating advice and felt like a light warm self help novel at times which still was nice

I then bought tolles power of now thing which focused on mindfullness, that had some deeper advice on stuff but it confused me aswell with the pure self all in one being thing which felt like a mystic novel aswell but the focus on mindfullness really helped easing off ruminating thoughts.

Then i got into jiddu krishnamurti who is said to be tolles inspiration and he helped me the most in self knowledge and showed me how im attached and biased to people, ideas, mental constructs where i derive security and self worth.

I want to learn and meditate more now because it feels good and want to see where this path takes me.

Now i saw this chart here, would you recommend going through it?

[Anonymous No.17562139]

>>17562116
If you want to learn to meditate then read The Mind Illuminated
As for the rest of the books on this chart they're only worth anything for someone who's interested in buddhism as a religion, the nikayas are dry as fuck and they'll exemplify the "life denying" aspects I was referring to earlier but check them out if you want to
Honestly I'd recommend reading UG Krishnamurti

[Anonymous No.17562240]

>>17561906
>How do you truly ready yourself for death?
in this case the preparation is in destroying your delusions about what is meaningful. and when closely examined I think most sources of meaning are indefensible. then, when death comes, what is there to regret?
the only think I can poke holes in is love for family and friends. missing them and not being there to help them is the only thing I would regret now, I think

[Anonymous No.17562262]

>>17562139
Thanks anon. Any opinion on hinduism? I think jiddu krishnamurti has a hindu background. His stance basically was:

You are not going to learn anything about yourself and progress as a happy individual when you engage in an ascetic lifestyle following breathing techniques because a book forced you to do so. If you are a shitty person now then trying to be virtuous is not going to help you but keep inflating that inner conflict and delude yourself and your ego. Real meditation is observing yourself how you engage in relationships with other humans, with ideas, with enemies, with your friends, goals, motives. When you have ill will, jealousy for example, dont try to force yourself to be the opposite but rather accept who you are and by understanding who you are, there will be no conflict and you will be free. Any virtue by discipline is self delusion. You have to understand mechanism of your feelings and why you behave like you behave.

Any opinion on it? Is this the hindu method or is it just a philosophers views of its own. U.g meditated for a decade with him before they seperated in some dispute.

Im not ready for ug yet i think

[Anonymous No.17562320]

>>17562262
I haven't studied hinduism enough to provide an educated opinion on it, but what you posted makes sense and isn't a "hindu-only" stance. Engaging in meditation for the sake of severing your worldly attachments or to "change yourself" forcefully in any way is stupid and will lead to burning yourself out.
There's nothing to seek, UG was right about this. If you don't want to read the books about him yet you could read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, it's completely different from UG but it'll introduce you to that concept of "seeking" being useless which IMO is important to realize.

[Anonymous No.17562396]

>>17562320
>but what you posted makes sense and isn't a "hindu-only" stance.
Where else can it be found? Is it a buddhist stance aswell in some form or sect or in general? Will get that book

[Anonymous No.17562452]

>>17562396
It's not a sectarian thing and I've heard it thrown around by various people, but the author of Zen Mind Beginner's Mind makes a similar point about meditation not being some kind of special practice you to to reach a goal and change yourself, and that to meditate is simply to be, though he extends it to all aspects of life

[Anonymous No.17562594]

>>17562452
Thanks. Also worth noting for lulz that thich basically claimed that reincarnation is a meme and misunderstood and those are all wrong ancient schools who got memed and our way is the right actual buddhism way which buddha meant

[Anonymous No.17562622]

>>17562594
What did Thich believe rebirth was?

[Anonymous No.17562686]

>>17562622
You have always existed and will forever exist. From semen in your dads balls to being worm food etc. No birth. No death. But you will lose your consciousness and never have one again he states but you shouldnt give a fuck about that because you will transcend as matter/energy and with that insight we somehow shouldnt be afraid of death. We only fear death cause we view ourself as seperate beings allthough everything is connected. We still dont need to kill our ego he says cause its vital energy but that when reminding ourself that the ego is fabricated illusionary this insight will help us feel interconnected more and ease off fear of death

[Anonymous No.17562704]

>>17562686
Honestly that's a better explanation than the mainstream doctrine of rebirth although the conclusion is somewhat identical

[Anonymous No.17562716]

>>17562262
UG said that there was no link between his natural state and meditation.

[Anonymous No.17562735]

>>17562704
Is there an actual chance buddha meant it this way or is it worthless speculation? I mean viewing it that way would make it completely practical as a philosophy or worldview for anyone interested following a calm practical path in a loud chaotic society. I never understood the worry about reincarnation in the first place becase that new born consciousness will obviously not be mine so why would i care? Or do i view it wrong?

[Anonymous No.17562748]

>>17562735
I don't know if the buddha meant it like that or not but it doesn't really matter.
>I never understood the worry about reincarnation in the first place becase that new born consciousness will obviously not be mine
No you're absolutely 100% right, I'd say you're on the right path. Those who tell you you have "wrong view" have something to sell you

[Anonymous No.17562796]

>>17562716
Ug has done a lifetime of meditation and spiritual/philosophical work call it whatever. Claiming his natural state he attained had zero to do with the previous work done in some sort of way sounds hard to believe imo. Or lets put it this way, maybe only thanks to wasting so many years following a wrong path, it led him to the right path at the end

[Anonymous No.17562833]

>>17562796
He himself denied it so that's enough for me. Also I am very skeptical about enlightenment and his claim that he achieved enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.17562875]

>>17562833
Some other anon who practiced dzogchen for a decade claimed this

Enlightenment (byang chub) is nothing other than taking the modulation of conceptual proliferation to a very far point, with full enlightenment (sangs rgyas) taking it to its end point.

So basically nothing mystical or out of reality in this definition?

[Anonymous No.17562975]

>>17562875
I don't know man. But UG said that meditation give you the illusion that you will gain enlightenment tomorrow but what about now? This very present moment.
He said that thought created all the nonsense of striving towards something when there is nothing attain because this is the illusion of thought. And enlightenment is nothing more than the knowledge that has been transferred from generation to generation to us.

[Anonymous No.17563075]

>>17562975
Maybe with natural state he simply means a 24/7 mindfull state with next to no thoughts? How does he describe the state?

[Anonymous No.17563147]

>>17563075
Yeah no thoughts and only actions and stimulus reaction to what's been happening in his surroundings. But it's very sketchy man you should listen to his interviews and decide for yourself. I don't believe that he was "enlightened" but I like his ideas.

https://youtu.be/lRuktPeE0eQ
https://youtu.be/EGPxlBbP30A

[Anonymous No.17563324]

>>17562686
>semen in your dads balls
whatf Thich Nhat Hahn book to start with! me asked