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17499265 No.17499265 [Reply] [Original]

Why is it that many Muslims memorize the entire Qur'an but no Christian has read the Bible? It seems like a lot of Christians could benefit from checking out their text because a lot of their criticism of Islam seems to suggest ignorance of their own holy book

>> No.17499286
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17499286

>> No.17499307

How poetic is the Qur'an compared to the Bible? Would prefer an answer from someone who isn't a muslim because I grew up around them and don't trust them.

>> No.17499314

>>17499307
Read Arberry's introduction to his translation

>> No.17499323

>>17499307

Extremely. It's not exactly verse, at least not all of it, but the prose is very poetic.

>> No.17499382

>>17499307
the people who think the quran is "poetic" are generally the sort of people who have had it drummed into their heads since they were born and were told it is "poetic" every day of their lives. in reality it's a boring book full of lists and minutiae about dos and don'ts.
>ah but you have to read it in arabic to truly understand it etc etc
fuck that. there is no concept that is uniquely untranslateable. a concept that can be expressed "poetically" in one language can be expressed equally "poetically" in any other.
>I grew up around them and don't trust them.
that is entirely sensible
also fuck people who make islam threads, take this shit to /x/ or /his/

>> No.17499395

>>17499382
You're thinking of the Bible

>> No.17499513

>>17499307
>How poetic is the Qur'an compared to the Bible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef8Ci5Zc3ZA

>> No.17499522

>>17499265
le "christian"
stop arguing about a strawman

>> No.17499544

>>17499382
>a concept that can be expressed "poetically" in one language can be expressed equally "poetically" in any other.
Bruh

>> No.17499548

>>17499265
I fucked 6 girls from muslim families, deflowered 4 of them and will continue to acceleratethe death of this cult whenever I can.

>> No.17499561

>>17499265
>Why is it that many Muslims memorize the entire Qur'an
Without translation, at least 90% of them.

>> No.17499572
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17499572

>>17499548
No one believes you

>> No.17499578

>>17499548
You're doing the Devil's work, good job, anon.

>> No.17499591

>>17499561
Maybe a Muslim could chime in: Do Muslims use translations of the Quran? For example, in Turkey or Iran would the Quran be in Classical Arabic or in Turkish, Persian, etc.? What about sermons, are those in Arabic or the native language

>> No.17499609

>>17499382
>in reality it's a boring book full of lists and minutiae about dos and don'ts.
That's not the whole reality. Quran is structured as such so that it first deals with this world and as it progresses it deals more with the afterlife and as such keeps getting more abstract, the idea being that before you can deal with those big abstract ideas you must first have a firm footing here.

>> No.17499628

>>17499591
>Do Muslims use translations of the Quran?
Yes, depends of the use case. Whilst praying original is obligatory. Translation is to do in your own time to understand it.
>What about sermons, are those in Arabic or the native language
Those are usually in native language, but Surahs, or chapters are often sprinkled in between to nail down the point made.

>> No.17499630

>>17499591
>Do Muslims use translations of the Quran?
No, most of Muslims recite Quran in Arabic without reading the translating. It's a common belief that reading Quran in Arabic is rewarding in this world and here after.

>> No.17499640

>>17499382
>>17499307
What exactly "poetry" is in different languages varies. This is especially the case in an oral culture like the Classical Arabs. Strictly speaking, pre-Classical Arabs were a literate people, but writing had essentially collapsed by the time Muhammad came around. Something similar happened to the Greeks, with the Greek Dark Ages resulting in Linear A/B being lost, turning them back to an oral culture. In oral cultures, "poetry" is a combination of high-speech (in many Indo-European languages poetry is actually "speech from horseback", indicating elevation in several senses) alongside structures that aid memory. Some of this is verse (qualitative vs quantitative vs syllable counting vs moras vs etc), some of this is rhythmn or other pleasant sounding structures (rhyme, alliteration, vowel repetition).

Semitic languages operate off of a system whereby a basic consonant cluster will be altered by the addition of vowels and additional consonants. So, the s-l-m cluster yields us "salam", meaning "peace", used as a greeting, but also "Islam" meaning "submission" and "Muslim" meaning "submitter". The Torah is filled with large amounts of poetic constructs that make no sense in a non-Semitic language because of this, as it frequently plays with vowel and consonant patterns in interesting ways.

>> No.17499693

>>17499640
The Quran has none of this, and swerves between rhymed lines of no specific length and strict prose. Having said that, it has specific forms of recitation that are almost sung or chanted. The Quran also has no real order to it. The various Surahs are arranged by length, but this is purely a contrivance of the codifiers. As it is meant to be used (an oral compendium) it really can have no beginning and no end. This is where criticisms of "you need an outside book to know the chronology of Muhammad's life" comes from; when you memorize the Quran, you just know this stuff, as it's in your head and makes connections. It's only when viewed as a standalone text that his even comes up.

This makes it in some sense comparable to the King James Bible, which merely uses elevated speech but rarely uses actual metrical or rhythmic considerations (and why should it, you don't have to memorize it, it's written down for you). Certain portions are "pretty", but there is no structure to aid memorization.

Which is prettier of the two is up to personal taste (if you don't know Arabic the Quran is meaningless anyways). What is undeniable, however, is that the Quran cannot be compared to, say, the Rig Veda, the Eddas, or Homer, which are absolutely packed with structure to aid memorization. So, to a certain kind of Western ear, the Quran is certainly inferior, but then so is the King James Bible and the Torah.

>> No.17499698

>>17499640
It's really different for anglos because everything has to be instantly obvious.
This is an authentic, although a bit more melodical for my liking. recital of Quran. In it's native language, the way it's written, everything is encoded in how it's supposed to be pronounced, so that it almost becomes a song of a kind.

>> No.17499702

>>17499572
I bet you believe the sandnigger strawman instead

>> No.17499712

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

>>17499307
The Qur'an is considered of high literary merit by most, albeit not all, westerners who specialize in Arab literature.

>>17499591
Muslims generally read bilingual editions with a native translation side by side, or all Arabic.

Sermons are given Arabic, or native, depends on school. The safest route is giving two brief sermons, one in each

>>17499640
The Qur'an isn't poetry and says it is not. The rhyme aids beauty and memorization but the meter is irregular

>> No.17499743

>>17499712
Hey, OP

>> No.17499754

>>17499265

Mate at the school I went I was literally not allowed to read anything but the Bible between 16h00-19h00. I spent 6 years reading it (admittedly I was mostly reading the apocalypse because it was the most metal part of it).

>> No.17499766

>>17499743
Hello

>> No.17499772

>>17499265
The Christian faith is rooted in human goodness and virtue. That is why it is not really needed to be learned about it and know the text start to finish. To be a true christian, a truly true christian, is actually really fucking difficult. But being a muslim is stupid easy.

>> No.17499783

>>17499772
Islam is perfect for humanity though. Christians have good intent but don't do it as Allah swt intended.

>> No.17499784

>>17499772
>To be a true christian, a truly true christian, is actually really fucking difficult. But being a muslim is stupid easy.
Why is there so many people that like to speak from ignorance about Islam?

>> No.17499800

>>17499784
Jahiliyyah, the Arabic word for ignorance, has always been used to refer to kufri civilization. In fact we say when one sins it is always an expression of ignorance,this is all from the Qur'an.

>> No.17499842

>>17499265
Because the Bible is fuckhuge
Also, the Quran is the recitation of God, meaning it is the Word of God (though it probably has been altered). This means that reciting it has special powers, and it is supposedly a boon when you are judged, not for yourself but also for your family. Because the original was in Arabic, it requires you to recite it in Arabic as well, which means that many Muslims memorize a book that they cant really understand a word of.
The Christian equivalent of the Word is the Logos, which is Jesus Christ, not the Bible, not the Gospels. And so for a Christian, it is pointless to memorize the Bible, let alone in its original language, rather than to focus on accepting God into your heart.

>> No.17499882

>>17499842
>which means that many Muslims memorize a book that they cant really understand a word of.
To be officially labeled a hafiz you have to understand it as well.

>> No.17499899

>>17499842
Memorizing the Qur'an is important although as the Prophet ﷺ made clear, the purpose and function of the Qur'an's revelation is implementation, therefore simply understanding it phonetically, with no effort to understand the meaning, is not very pious. Muslims who cannot understand Arabic generally at least familiarize themselves with the "libretto", so to speak. But really every Muslim should learn Arabic, truth be told however many who know it are impious whereas many who don't are scrupulous

The Bible refers to the Bible as the word. The Logos and its implications is a Greek idiosyncracy. It is absolutely true that Jesus is the word of Allah but obviously when the old testament talks about a person being the word or when the Qur'an does, it isn't referring to the philosophical Logos. Being someone's word is a Semitic idiom for being their verbatim messager.

>> No.17499932

>>17499882
The typical Muslim who memorized it all isn't certified as a hafidh, more taught by his parents or teachers as a child. A certified hafidh is someone who learned it from someone and so on all the way back to Muhammad ﷺ and Allah, عز و جل, with each name certifying the next. This is actually the primary way Qur'an is passed down, the propagation of written form is and always has been a supplement rather than the essential

>> No.17499935

>>17499842
>Because the Bible is fuckhuge
>The Quran is divided into 114 Surahs (chapters), containing 6,236 verses (comprising some 80,000 words or 330,000 individual characters).
That maybe the case, but Quran isn't a short book either and memorizing it whole is no small feet. To think there are millions of people that have done it all over the world that's quite the dedication.
>And so for a Christian, it is pointless to memorize the Bible, let alone in its original language, rather than to focus on accepting God into your heart.
Interesting as that is also one of the main ideas of Islam is to accept God into your heart. You're not required to memorize the Quran, those are some especially religious people who were probably raised in such households and have been doing it since childhood, but it's expected of all Muslims to at least accept God into their heart if it's all you do.

>> No.17499944

>>17499932
>The typical Muslim who memorized it all isn't certified as a hafidh, more taught by his parents or teachers as a child. A certified hafidh is someone who learned it from someone and so on all the way back to Muhammad ﷺ and Allah, عز و جل, with each name certifying the next. This is actually the primary way Qur'an is passed down, the propagation of written form is and always has been a supplement rather than the essential
What body oversees this certification?

>> No.17499966

>>17499944
There is no official body and never has been. The strength of certification simply depends on having the pedigree that can trace all the way back and provide every name. Unlike historical genealogies, the names in this pedigree have to be actually known and recognized people whom there is a clear record of, with each one in the chain known to have learned from the prior

>> No.17499974

>>17499382
Minutiae? It contains far less "law" than the old testament and many if not most of the statement are quite general

>> No.17499976

>>17499800
>kufri civilisation
Ah yes the wonderful educated muslim societies

>> No.17499988

>>17499712
>The Qur'an isn't poetry and says it is not. The rhyme aids beauty and memorization but the meter is irregular
I've heard it called rhymed prose which I think is more accurate (though not every part rhymes)

>> No.17499993

>>17499976
What education entails is obviously contingent on values. By Islamic standards, Muslim societies are far more educated than the west because metaphysical concerns are paramount, whereas in the west material concerns, production and consumption,are considered the primary concern of education.

>> No.17500003

>>17499988
Yes, that's more correct. Also what qualifies as rhyme might be seen differently. It's a very organic text and not forced or rigid, it's rhetoric and rhetoric can only be so elaborate before it becomes insincere

>> No.17500296

>>17499548
Haha, good work. Now they'll see kafir for what they are, animalistic fools driven by lust and greed, subhanAllah.
>>17499772
Its a fucking idolatrous lie and hypocritical bullshit designed to foist an imperial cult of servitude to man and not God. Everything in the gospels is fine excluding shit like "I am the way, the truth and the life" and all the other verses that allude to partnership and could potentially suggest the heresy of the trinity.
>>17499842
The Gospels (one gospel) is a slither of the Bible. Why would you not want to memorise it or the psalms? Little gratitude do the kafir have.
>>17499265
Check out Jeremiah 17:5-8.
Xtianity is not anything but a lie. As I said the gospels have good stuff in them- sublime stuff- but it means nothing because they're just worshipping man, not God, Most High.

>> No.17500325
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17500325

It's because most christians aren't religious and because the Bible has been altered with 100 different versions, as we can only be certain that Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 are not altered verses.

>> No.17500340
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17500340

>>17499323
>but the prose is very poetic
this fucking board man

>> No.17500461

>>17500340
Texts don't fit neatly into boxes anon, especially when you leave the West

>> No.17500487

>>17500340
I'm sorry you can't distinguish between poetry and verse.

>> No.17500562

>>17500340
Is this bait?

>> No.17500627

Not sure what you're talking about. If you're referring to people who are merely nominally Christian (claim to believe in God, but never pray or attend church and hold values and beliefs completely antithetical to any Christian denomination) then these people are not really Christian. If you're talking about the devout, which is now a minority since religion is no longer seen as important in the west, then you are wrong. Most are very familiar with both the old testament and the gospels and can quote scripture if you ask them or if an arguments calls for it.

>> No.17500726

>>17500461
>non westerners can't rhyme
lmao at this nigga

>> No.17500741

>>17499265
>He said: As Thou hast caused me to remain disappointed I will certainly lie in wait for them in Thy straight path.
>Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee).
Is it bad that Islamic Satan makes me feel bad for him?

>> No.17500762

>>17499307
It's un unreadable schizoid piece of shit.
Books of the Bible at least have a narrative.

>> No.17500768

Christians are generally not as religious as muslims.

>> No.17500810
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17500810

>>17499265
All you need to know about this low IQ religion.

>> No.17500818
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17500818

>>17500810

>> No.17500841
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17500841

>>17500810
Better quality.

>> No.17500844

>>17500810
>>17500818
Addressed thoroughly here
>>/lit/thread/S14651153

>> No.17500878

>>17500844
Additionally

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/8248530

>> No.17500952

>>17500296
"Before Abraham was, I am."
Please tell me the gospels were corrupted.

>> No.17500954

Because many Muslims have got nothing better to do

I mean what are they going to do, something useful?

>> No.17500960

>>17499993
Cope

>> No.17500976

>>17500296
>Haha, good work. Now they'll see kafir for what they are, animalistic fools driven by lust and greed, subhanAllah.

Sounds a lot like your fake prophet's dealings.
Also >all non-muslims are the same

>> No.17501072

>>17499265
Both books are completely worthless.

>> No.17501076

>>17500976
Read the Qur'an and see for yourself if you're that sure about Islam being wrong.
I had a friend who was vehemently opposed to Islam and the Ummah but one evening he started reading the Qur'an.

The next morning he was fucking goats.

>> No.17501080

>>17500878
>first >
>"okay quran stylistically is a piece of shit but that's due to the fact it was to be recited orally and this justifies the schizo-tier repetitions and and and"
Pure copana.

>> No.17501089

>>17501076
What a wonderful story, truly Allah is the greatest.

>> No.17501092

>>17499307
It’s poetic in that it’s extremely repetitive, it is not very well composed

>> No.17501122

>>17501080
Legend has it that once every decade muslim society produces someone useful but they kill him before he can do something.

>> No.17501186

>>17499307
Look up someone reading it aloud in arabic.

>> No.17501193

>>17500726
literally not what I said

>> No.17501209

>>17499772
These statements seem to contradict each other. Christianity is so simple and basic that you don't need to read their holy book (a claim that the vast majority of Christian experts for nearly the past 2000 years would call heretical), yet somehow that makes being a Christian incredibly difficult? And how, by the same measurements, is being a Muslim easy?

>> No.17501266

>>17501209
Loving thy neighbor is easier said than done

>> No.17501276

>>17499265
>Why is it that many Muslims memorize the entire Qur'an
Lmao. They'd be less Muslims in the if people actually read the Qur'an

>> No.17501346

>>17499265
Just pick a chapter and read, use Pickthall translation and Sahih International

>> No.17501388

>>17501346
www.quran.com

>> No.17501503

>>17501276
They read the Quran several times a day, every day. What is this even supposed to mean? Why is there such a common insistence that Western non-Muslims know more about Islam than actual Muslims do?

>> No.17501531

>>17499395
No one argues that the NT is poetic. What are you on?

>> No.17501548

>>17501531
People argue much the Bible is. It's generally agreed the NT is bad Greek fanfic but that's only a small part

>> No.17501555

>>17499307
parts of the bible are literally census records while other parts are literally a poetry collection
judging the poetic qualities of the bible is an effort in futility because the bible isn't actually one book but many books compiled together because something something King James

>> No.17501557

no muslim has actually memorised the quran fully and perfectly, at best like 90%

>> No.17501560

>>17501531
im christian and I would say it is

>> No.17501566
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17501566

>>17501555
>the bible isn't actually one book but many books compiled together because something something King James

>> No.17501864

>>17499640
>in many Indo-European languages poetry is actually "speech from horseback"
sauce please i need to know more

>> No.17501884

>>17501548
>It's generally agreed the NT is bad Greek fanfic
poor bait

>> No.17501897

>>17501560
It's certainly poetic in its evocation. But it isn't written in verse, nor does it have any sort of metre or what have you.

>> No.17501903

>>17501884
in the past male snakes had two heads and female snakes had two tails and the female snakes just kind of flopped around aimlessly all over the place while the male snakes each made agreements with their other halves that they would try to manage a female snake and try to keep it out of danger and from flailing off cliffs or anything. the successful ones eventually evolved into the combination head/tail snakes we know today while the unsuccessful males who fought among themselves failed to procreate and eventually ceased to be

>> No.17501908

>>17501864
Indo-European Poetry and Myth by M.L. West.

>> No.17501975

>>17499693
Arranging the Surahs by length baffles me.
>This is where criticisms of "you need an outside book to know the chronology of Muhammad's life" comes from; when you memorize the Quran, you just know this stuff, as it's in your head and makes connections. It's only when viewed as a standalone text that his even comes up.
I suppose a harry potter fan could read random chapters and know where they are in the general narrative, sure. But it sure as fuck doesn't help a first time reader.

>> No.17502004

>>17501975
The Qur'an is not a linear narrative except for Joseph. It is episodic and speaks through flashing back and forward. Furthermore even if it were arranged chronologically it would tell you little about the story of Muhammad ﷺ since it covers that by referencing it without going into detail

>> No.17502191

>>17500810
This retard is way too angry and polemical to have seriously studied anything he claims he studied. This reads like a reddit post.

>> No.17502215

>>17502191
>responding with nothing but ad hominem
you sure showed him, anon

>> No.17502229

Does anyone actually believe Muslims when they say they memorised the entrie Koran? It's obviously bullshit.

>> No.17502316

>>17502229
t. Brainlet kaffir

>> No.17502339

>>17500461
the west is the only one who has lost an understanding of what poetry means

>> No.17502345
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17502345

>>17501080
See my other posts on

Aesthetic of the Qur'an
>>/lit/thread/S16511592

Qualities of the Arabic.
>>/lit/thread/S17183069

>>17502229
Why do you say that? It's a practice that dates back to the Sahaba, رضي الله عنهم. Muhammad ﷺ said anyone who memorizes it all can intercede for ten family members

>> No.17502370

>>17502345
>It's a practice that dates back to the Sahaba, رضي الله عنهم. Muhammad ﷺ said anyone who memorizes it all can intercede for ten family members
Saying that it's an old practice doesn't suddenly convince me of anything. Oh yes, I thought memorising the Koran was something that Muslims only came up with last year. Now that I know that the practice is old, I'm totally convinced.

>> No.17502383

>>17502370
I mean that this was the primary form of record keeping for it until the printing press

>> No.17502394

>>17502383
Are you saying that the Koran was not written down until the time of the printing press? Seems like that casts even more doubt on the validity of the oral re-tellings.

>> No.17502701

>>17502394
I think you need to carefully reparse me words

>> No.17502733

>>17502701
In that case, there was a reason the printing press was invented; the enormous shortcomings of having people just memorise shit.

>> No.17502752

>>17502370
Didn't you hear? Every muslim on this earth memorised the 6346 verses of the Quran, even non-educated, even illiterates ones. That's a great miracle of Allah!

>> No.17502761

>>17502701
Once again, you're saying "it's an old practice, therefore it must be true". Completely meaningless.

>> No.17503135

>>17502761
You're free to read western scholarship on it

>> No.17503153

>>17503135
It wouldn't change my mind. It's pure nonsense. Perhaps there were a handful of John Nash type Muslim savants throughout history who have done it. But the idea of the poor but noble servant of God who dedicated his whole life to memorising the Koran is an embarrassing myth and Muslims should strive to do better than falling for it.

>> No.17503186

>>17499513
Doing a shit impression of an rnb singer does not make something poetic.

>> No.17503524

>>17499307
One of the things that lend the Quran its poetic feel is the fact that readers read it out aloud with a particular cadence. It is genuinely beautiful to listen to.

>> No.17503557

>>17503524
To me it always sounds like nasal ethnic wailing.

>> No.17503585

>>17503153
I don't know why you think it's so incredible, humans memorize a larger vocabulary and the Qur'an rhymes. You don't have to be a savant, most people learn in childhood

>> No.17503594

>>17503585
Memorising the vocabulary of a language is not remotely comparable to memorising a very specific text.

>> No.17503599

>>17503585
I add, memorizing the Qur'an doesn't even make you an accomplished scholar, rather it's a prerequisite to be a scholar. You are not supposed to be memorizing Hadiths and their chains until you me memorize the whole Qur'an, and the most accomplised scholars like Bukhari memorized Hadiths that put together were far more extensive in words than the Qur'an

>> No.17503619

>>17503594
Pretty much every Muslim knows at least one person or more who has memorized the whole Qur'an and had to recite it in its entirety on multiple occasions, which can be done in a day

>> No.17503632

>>17503619
You mean pretty much every Muslim knows at least one person or more who claims to have memorised the whole Koran.

>> No.17503650
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17503650

Ye Muslims! Hark!

The Islamic conception of the divine is, as far as I'm concerned, both functionally correct and the most reasonable of the main Abraham's faith; however, being incomprehensible and unknowable, how do prophets ascertain his will? Immediately, I presume that it is through reason and, if it is right reason, it must be God's, but I am unfamiliar with the Quran.

>> No.17504036

>>17499265
legacy.quran.com
>Post interesting verses you come across

"When they are flung therein they hear its roaring as it boileth up,
As it would burst with rage. Whenever a host is flung therein the wardens thereof ask them: Came there unto you no warner?"

"Then is one who walks fallen on his face better guided or one who walks erect on a straight path?"

"Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool."

"And if a wave enshroudeth them like awnings, they cry unto Allah, making their faith pure for Him only. But when He bringeth them safe to land, some of them compromise. None denieth Our signs save every traitor ingrate."

"Hast thou not seen that Allah causeth water to fall from the sky, and We produce therewith fruits of divers hues; and among the hills are streaks white and red, of divers hues, and intensely black"

"And He it is Who maketh night a covering for you, and sleep repose, and maketh day a Resurrection"

>> No.17504046

>>17499307
I'm a Muslim

>> No.17504060

>>17503650
Prophets are told His will either directly in some cases or more often via intermediaries such as angels

>> No.17504491

>>17503632
Why is this so unbelievable for you? Plenty of mosques have imams that have memorized the whole thing. They recite the entire thing over the course of Ramadan during taraweeh prayers without looking at anything but the floor. They might say the wrong word here or there, and someone else in the congregation chimes in to correct them. A medium sized congregation of Muslims will have a few that have memorized the book in its entirety.

>> No.17504549

>>17499307
Have a listen

https://youtu.be/THIWLQizMEQ

>> No.17504913

>>17499591
Sermons are in the native language. My imam on Canada used to give them in English. In Pakistan, they're in Urdu or Pashto.

Memorization is in Arabic and a lot of people tend to go back and read the translations later on.

>> No.17504928

>>17499265
>Why is it that many Muslims memorize the entire Qur'an
analphabetism

>> No.17504933

>>17503632
>claims to have memorised the whole Koran.
>claims
You don't get to claim it without a reason. In some countries there are commissions of several members and if you want to claim the title of hafiz you have to come to their HQ and you have to recite the entire Quran, correctly, for a period of a few weeks.

>> No.17504954

>>17499265
>Why
If you want to know the actual why, yeah it's said it's a good deed and you will get a reward, but it's due to practical reasons. There have been times in any society where people burned books and knowledge has been lost. This is why it's recommended that every Muslim community has at least one person who has memorized it. This way even if by some chance all of the Qurans across the world were burned there are several millions of muslims all over the world that have memorized the entire Quran. It's a form of a backup that is not reliant on technology only

>> No.17504997

>>17499591
I don't go to mosque but I do read an english translation of the qur'an. from what I gather it's more of a young people thing, older muslims may be familiar with the qur'an in arabic tho

>> No.17505334

>>17504954
Also, many Muslims incidentally memorise large parts and verses of the Quran when it is being recited in prayer. It just has to be pieced together in the right order

>> No.17505403

>>17504549
>autotune

>> No.17505409

>>17504997
>I don't go to mosque

Muslims are obligated to do this, you need to, brother

>> No.17505440

>>17505409
>Muslims are obligated to do this
tfw when most Muslims now have an excuse not to do it due to roniechan

>> No.17505575

>>17504933
>You don't get to claim it without a reason
Sure, just all the totally real Sayyid's out there.

>> No.17505590
File: 541 KB, 1173x704, uID7pVB.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17505590

Muslims are taking a beating itt

>> No.17505650

>>17505590
It promotes genetic isolation to evolve against disease, common near the equator.

>> No.17505687

>>17505650
t. inbred

>> No.17505703

>>17505687
Yes, and?

>> No.17506129

>>17505590
What is actually the explanation for this? I come from a mixed religion country and even between Muslims incest is extremely frowned upon, even something like 10th generation people would talk.

>> No.17506160

>>17506129
OP is attempting to cause fighting between Muslims and Christians

>> No.17506172

>>17506129
Cousin marriage (1st) is counted as consanguineous. Cousin marriage is a widespread custom in the middle east among Christians as well but more so in Muslims. In societies, adherence the tradition increases the chances on birth defects, retardation and genetic disease.
Repeated consanguineous marriage only adds to that chance.
That's why in our medical studies we are taught that if someone is from the darker regions in picrelated, we should screen their family history for genetic diseases and birth defects.

>> No.17506177

>>17506172
There's literally nothing wrong with marrying your first cousin.

>> No.17506179

>>17505440
That's not actually a valid excuse in Shari'ah, corona does not legally fall under plague

>> No.17506188

>>17506172
>I come from a mixed religion country and even between Muslims incest is extremely frowned upon, even something like 10th generation people would talk.

>>17506172 here
Can you tell me which country you are from, then?
I am aware that Islam is against incest, but not against cousin marriage, 1st or xst. Even the prophet himself married his cousin.
Some will mention hadiths against repeated cousin marriage, but those are deemed unreliable/fabrications.

>> No.17506192

>>17506177
Only if you don't consider it "wrong" to give your child an increased chance on birth defects, lower intelligence, being stillborn, etc.

>> No.17506194

>>17506188
Don't tell this glowie where you are from.

>> No.17506199

>>17506192
Geriatric pregnancies. Shut up with your subjective nonsense I'm in no mood.

>> No.17506224

>>17506199
>subjective nonsense
No need to be upset, merely read:
>Having a baby with a first cousin more than doubles the risk of congenital problems such as heart and lung defects, cleft palettes and extra fingers, according to the largest study of its kind in the UK.

>The study looked at 11,300 babies born to a range of ethnic groups in Bradford, West Yorkshire, which has higher levels of blood marriage in the city’s large Pakistani community. The study is part of the wider Born in Bradford study, one of the biggest UK studies of its kind which charts a group of more than 13,000 children born in the city between 2007 and 2011.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(13)61132-0/fulltext

If you think this is subjective, then please let us know why. Don't be lazy.

>>17506194
CIA is awesome isn't it my fellow civilians?? haha

>> No.17506235

>>17506199
One can oppose both, now hit the gym, you sound like a faggot.

>> No.17506292

>>17506224
>>17506235
You want to argue about eugenics?

>> No.17506342

>>17506292
You're right, we should let people fuck their siblings and parents while we're at it.

>> No.17506349

>>17506342
Nothing wrong with that. These rules were made thousands of years ago with unreliable birth control

>> No.17506355

>>17506349
No, we should let them have children as well.
You don't want to argue eugenics do you?

>> No.17506360

>>17506355
>You don't want to argue eugenics do you?
I'm not the anon you were talking to.

>> No.17506363

>>17506342
Nothing wrong with incest. It is the purest form of love

>> No.17506383

>>17506360
Okay.

Well, the post is out there, cousin marriage is unhealthy for offspring, much like geriatric pregnancies. Muslims have no scientific arguments in favor.

>> No.17506390

>>17499265
the difference is that islam is still generally an actual religion whereas christianity is just one of many identity-based products under capitalism

>> No.17506393

>>17506383
>cousin marriage is unhealthy for offspring
I don't think anyone is denying that, barring the trolls. What's wrong with sex tho if it doesn't produce offsprings?

>> No.17506405

>>17506390
>the difference is that islam is still generally an actual religion
The advantage of Islam is that in Muslim countries it's mixed with culture, ethnicity and statehood and the division between those can't really be understood there much like the opposite can't be understand in the west.

>> No.17506406

>>17506393
>I don't think anyone is denying that, barring the trolls
In this thread? Yeah, I might have been trole'd. It remains a fact that it's still widely accepted "over there". Even the diaspora in my country does it.

>What's wrong with sex tho if it doesn't produce offsprings?
You're right

>> No.17506424

>>17506405
yes, although (aside from the link between Islam and political / state power) those cultural elements are disappearing fairly rapidly. a lot of young people have a fairly similar attitude to the previous generation of nominal "Christians"; they will call themselves a muslim but they don't place much value on the teachings.

>> No.17506425

>>17506342
No.

>> No.17506429

>>17506424
*citation required*

>> No.17506446

>>17506429
I have a lot of friends who live in Egypt, Jordan, UAE & Palestine. They all tell me the same thing; that them and the young people around them have sex before marriage, drink, don't believe in much of the content of the Quran, but behave as if they do when they are in formal social situations or with their parents.

>> No.17506461

>>17506446
>that them and the young people around them have sex before marriage, drink, don't believe in much of the content of the Quran, but behave as if they do when they are in formal social situations or with their parents.
I think this was always present, in any society. God knows I was like that, well I wasn't doing those sins, but I was a bit rebellious, and was pretending in formal settings because my faith hasn't yet set it. It comes with age and experience.

>> No.17506468

>>17506446
>but behave as if they do when they are in formal social situations or with their parents.
This is Arab culture in general. I'd say this is prevalent in Muslim countries to boot, but I've only met a few Muslims from countries not counted as Arab.
Muslim diaspora is like this, no matter their origin (except maybe Chechens and ex-Yugos).

They'll behave like degenerates, even more than the people they criticize (western kuffar) and then join a youth gang, go to isis, or become a pious muslim himself.

>> No.17506472

>>17506446
Have you heard the story of the three men who the Sultan sent to Baghdad?

>> No.17506508

For all the people mentioning the quran being sang/recited that also exists in the old testament. Christians just threw the whole thing away. Hebrew reading is sung.

>> No.17506532

>>17506508
The Qur'an is not supposed to be sung, just recited slowly, sadly and with a beautiful voice. Singing it is incorrect and discouraged in Hadiths.

>> No.17506535

>>17506532
I don't think he meant exactly sung, just melodic.

>> No.17506538

>>17506532
>Singing it is incorrect
Say that to the tower that wakes me up 4am sharp lol.

>> No.17506546

>>17506538
>Say that to the tower that wakes me up 4am sharp lol.
That's not Quran, that's just a call to prayer.

>> No.17506552

>>17506446
Those countries with the exception of Palestine all have governments that are extremely hostile to Islam and will incarcerate unauthorized religious gatherings; anyone who is religious except a state appointed cleric, is cut out if work or advancement and you are not going to hear them talk about it because it is dangerous, but there many. As for Palestine it was secularist in culture for a long time, that's why Abdullah Azzam left but relative to his time it's actually become much more religious.

>> No.17506557

>>17506546
Good to learn
Anyhow specific cadence and 'melody' is singing.
Hebrew writing even has small squiggles that tell you how to intone it.

>> No.17506559

>>17506538
>>17506546
And it's still not exactly singing it's does have to sound nice and melodic

>> No.17506564

>>17506538
The adhan isn't the Qur'an, it's supposed to be loud, long and rousing

>> No.17506565

>>17499591
Iranian here. We use the translation when we want to understand the meaning of the verses, but an especial emphasis is put on the Arabic recitation of the Qur'an.

>> No.17506568

>>17506552
Cus they're used to religious uprisings lol

>> No.17506578

>>17506557
>Hebrew writing even has small squiggles that tell you how to intone it.
Arabic, more so in the Quran than regular, has plenty of information encoded in those squiggles with regards to how it's supposed to be pronounced. Are you familiar with how that works in the Hebrew as I am curious to see an example?

>> No.17506582

>>17506552
because sharia doesnt work

>> No.17506587

>>17506557
Arabic has correct tone and syllable extension as well but in classical Arabic this is standardized for formal speech, that is it follows rules based on grammar and letter

>> No.17506589

>>17506538
>wakes me up 4am
Later than that in winter, which you'd know if you were paying attention.

>> No.17506591

>>17506565
>Iranian
He asked for Muslims tho

>> No.17506597

>>17506559
Shakespeare has a rhythm and melody too

>> No.17506602

>>17506591
Precisely why I replied. :)

>> No.17506606

>>17506589
He might live in an area that has one for tahajjud

>> No.17506608

>>17506582
Which of those countries have sharia?

>> No.17506617

>>17506582
Yeah it doesn't work for people who want to imprison or torture anyone who criticizes Israel

>> No.17506619

>>17506602
Yes but Iranian Islam is so different from other only God knows if we share any similarities

>> No.17506620

>>17506606
Maybe so, or he's talking shit like my brother-in-law

>> No.17506630

>>17506619
Depends on the fiqh. If you meant shia say shia not Iranian

>> No.17506632

>>17506617
still better than islamoretardation

>> No.17506634

>>17506630
>If you meant shia say shia not Iranian
Nah, I specifically meant Iranian lel

>> No.17506639

>>17506619
Are you referring to the Shi'a-Sunni divide? In the end we all recognize the authority of the Holy Book and the Prophet, only that the Shi'i approach them by emphasizing the teachings and interpretations of Ali and the later Shi'a Imams. Needless to say, the Prophet always praised Ali's interpretations.

>> No.17506642

>>17506632
Yes those hostile to us will kill and of course you can expect the favor to be reciprocal. Fortunately your governments rest on iman in the Petrodollar which will disintegrate, our Deen is faith in Allah, عز و جل

>> No.17506646

>>17506634
Ok, define Iranian Islam if you can.

>> No.17506650

>>17506639
Sunnis use Ali as an authority. The difference is narrations agreed upon by Sunni and Shia by Ali are dismissed by Shia as Taqiyyah on his part, whereas narrations about him by known liars are accepted by the Shia in the grounds that someone being a liar doesn't mean they can never tell the truth

>> No.17506654

>>17506646
Shia Islam but on steroids.

>> No.17506655

>>17499307
Die infidel

>> No.17506661

>>17506650
See explanation for how Shia use Hadiths here which quotes from their own site
>>17465696

>> No.17506667

>>17506642
Can you please reiterate that without the thinly veiled womanly sneer?

>> No.17506673

>>17506667
There is nothing veiled about my words

>> No.17506677

>>17506650
Don't you think you are being a little uncharitable here? Those narrations dismissed as Taqiyyah are the political ones, where Ali for the sake of Islamic community praises the first three caliphs. What I was referring to is the theological and jurisdictional teachings from Ali and his descendant Imams, which I don't believe the Sunni care much about. Do you guys even read the Nahj al-Balagha?

>> No.17506680

>>17506673
>ESL
Which European country do you reside in?

>> No.17506681

>>17506654
Do you mean the twelvers, as in the official state sect of Iran?

>> No.17506694
File: 71 KB, 340x255, bible.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17506694

>>17499265

>> No.17506701

>>17506677
But you see, Shia practice relies on saying 99% are kuffar and their narrations must be rejected. Thus based on Hadiths of Taqiyyah Shia have radically different jurisprudence, for example A'isha says men who dress as women are cursed as the Prophet ﷺ said so. But Shia say she is a witch (and so allow trans) and of course this would make no sense without negating Ali's praise of the Rashudun


Furthermore it's a moot point as Shia believe their clerics can directly suspend the Qur'an in the interests of Islam
>>17477752

>> No.17506702

>>17506681
I'm referring more to the Iranian revolutionary regime hidden behind Shia Islam, or fueled by it or both

>> No.17506708

>>17506642
Will the sandnigger divulge what happens after oil isn't a commodity in his dunelands anymore?

>> No.17506716
File: 67 KB, 500x500, 5c75dadb4e90535b0e7510563c6fd300.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17506716

>>17506578
Pic rel is all the normal squiggles for pronunciation. You find those in non minimalist writings as well (99% of the time in normal writing you don't write those since they are bothersome).

It's just stuff like whether to pronounce o or oo, since you can pronounce movements without a vowel in hebrew and also some vowels have different movements and also some vowels have a consonant attached like y does.

>> No.17506724

>>17506677
>be charitable toward the Shia calling the Sahaba lying kuffar even though Ali says otherwise

Almost as if the Shia are the lying kuffar here

>> No.17506726

>>17506708
Nothing for you if you are impolite

>> No.17506732

>>17506708
Then the dollar becomes worthless as it only holds foreign value because Saud will only sell oil in dollarinos. Then the west will have no reason or means to support their let tyrants like Saud and Sisi. meaning these states will fall to jihad

>> No.17506733

>>17506726
>fortunately your govts will fall
>hey don't be impolite now!

tears in my eyes

>> No.17506735

>Shia Muslims admire the Imams as saints and perform pilgrimages to their tombs and shrines
What is this polytheistic make-believe?

>> No.17506738

>>17506724
Do not become angry.

>> No.17506745
File: 22 KB, 404x398, unnamed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17506745

>>17506578
Pic rel is the stuff used in holy texts for singing/reciting it. I learned like 2 pages for my bar mitzvah and forgot it all so I can't help you with those. It's not a musical sheet more of a "rise tone here" "rise then lower" " emphasize/peak" and the rest depends on your tradition
>>17506589
I'm an Israeli Jew I don't really care

>> No.17506750

>>17506733
Should I be upset if those governments fall?

>> No.17506762

>>17506708
Look at Dubai and how they are scrambling to find a different economic strategy.
Dubai will come out ok some others will be ok the rest will be africa tier for a long while.

>> No.17506768

>>17506745
>>17506716
Interesting but I can't of course read a single thing there, but I am glad to have learned it exists.
>It's not a musical sheet more of a "rise tone here" "rise then lower" " emphasize/peak" and the rest depends on your tradition
A similar thing exists in Arabic. There also the squiggles where you have to extend a tone, double it, etc. I guess It's shared between Semitic languages.

>> No.17506779

>>17506750
>fortunately
Don't backpedal now, I thought Islam taught bravery?

>> No.17506788

>>17506762
Anon, think about why Africa is Africa-Tier. I don't see the similarities. I do see that historically some of the wealthiest lands were places like Egypt and Iran long before oil.

>> No.17506798

>>17506701
>Furthermore it's a moot point as Shia believe their clerics can directly suspend the Qur'an in the interests of Islam
Wilayat al-Faqih is not accepted by all though. As I understand it, there are currently two equally authorative Marjas in the Shi'a world, Khamenei and Sistani (both Iranians). The former obviously embraces Wilayat al-Faqih but the latter doesn't.
>But you see, Shia practice relies on saying 99% are kuffar and their narrations must be rejected.
Yes. The Shi'a say that Hadith are not as infallible as the Noble Qur'an. As a result, the Hadith could only be relied when it is supported by a verse in Quran. Otherwise it is not infallible (whereas the Sunni put highest importance on Hadith). Regarding Aisha, we even have a Surah in the Qur'an admonishing her because she was scheming against another wife (the al-Tahrim Surah). How could you think of her as an infallible authority of narrations, especially since she was so obviously biased against Ali? Your point about transgenderism is obviously uncharitable and not true. The Shi'a do not support transgenderism as understood in the West.

>> No.17506800

>>17506779
Nigger, you don't know what back peddling even is.

>> No.17506802

>>17506768
No, no tone extension in the normal squiggles. Just emphasis which turn soft consonants into hard ones and types of vowels.

>> No.17506804

>>17502370
bruh the quran wasn't written until 30 years after Muhammad's death. Arabs were nomadic barbarians. The Quran was recited in song like how other nomadic people recited their tales and sagas. This just shows how based muslims are like scythians, mongols and other nomadic groups. oral traditions are less corruptible than written traditions because everyone memorizes them and cross checks them on the regular. writing is an inferior form of notation used by settled grain brains and skinny limbed farmers. Allah Huakbar.

>> No.17506809

>>17506788
The truth is they are all scrambling to find new economic legs to stand on. Why do you think dubai signed peace with fucking Israel? Economics and iran.

>> No.17506819

>>17506724
Where is the lie my friend? What kufr?

>> No.17506827

>>17506800
Then I'll understand your post as "I wish for the western governments to fall"

>> No.17506835

>>17506798
Khomeini is definitely considered more authoritative than Sistani. He's the one we're talking about, not Khamenei

No one says she's infallible lol. Just that she was honest, which she obviously was as she narrates most if the Hadiths that cast her in a bad light

She wasn't biased against Ali, what are you basing this on? Her quarrel with him was about bringing Uthman's killers to justice. His killers fearing this launched an attack without Ali's permission as Ali said he would hand them over (but only once he was given bay'ah)

>> No.17506855

Sunni version of Ali: a fearless lion, the greatest and bravest of warriors

Shia version: too scared to do anything while his wife is beaten, then praises those who did out of fear of then while secretly talking shit behind their backs

>> No.17506870

>>17499265
>Why is it that many Muslims memorize the entire Qur'an
That's incorrect you orientalist pig. Stop fetishizing Islam, it's shit.

>> No.17506877

>>17506835
Khomeini is dead though. The Shi'a could only follow living Marjas.
>Her quarrel with him was about bringing Uthman's killers to justice.
But what did that have to do with waging a war against Ali? It's not like he was the killer. Far from it, we have a narration from a bit earlier where Aisha herself was saying that Uthman must be killed.

>> No.17506928

>>17506855
At this point the politics is not even that important (imo). What matters is the theological teachings of Ali and other Shi'a Imams. Ali was much more than just a warrior you know, he was praised by the Prophet for his deep understanding of Islam. I suggest reading his book, Nahj al-Balagha. He had god tier sermons.

>> No.17506952

>>17506877
>But what did that have to do with waging a war against Ali?
She hated him and Uthman's death was a perfect excuse

>> No.17506988

>>17506877
Shia never waged a war against him. She went demanding justice. Uthman's killers attacked her forces against Ali's will, then he stopped it. That's all that happened

>>17506952
That's bs so is saying she said kill Uthman. Why would she hate Ali? Liar

>> No.17507024

>>17506988
Why the sudden change of heart? Why demand justice for someone's death when earlier she was saying he should be killed?
>Why would she hate Ali?
It traces back to the incident where she was being suspected of adultery. Before the revelation cleared her, the Prophet consulted people close to him, and the strongest opinion against Aisha came from Ali. It is well known since then she resented him.

>> No.17507103

>>17506804
No proof for that.

Don't choke on your anger please, we'll be praying for your mental health.

>> No.17507112

>>17506788
Those countries are turning into deserts, that + lack of resources other than a diminishing supply of oil means the end of the middle east.

>> No.17507225

>>17507024
>when earlier she was saying he should be killed
She never said this

> traces back to the incident where she was being suspected of adultery. Before the revelation cleared her, the Prophet consulted people close to him, and the strongest opinion against Aisha came from Ali. It is well known since then she resented him.

I mean, no, not really. Umar said the same as Ali, divorce her just to be on the safe side. Abu Bakr, her own father, even felt slightly inclined that way. Muhammad ﷺ was telling her to repent of she did anything wrong when the revelation exonerating her came down. Her parents said to thank Muhammad ﷺ and she said she would only thank Allah. Her narration suggests it was the Prophet ﷺ she was most angry with, because he stopped talking to her for a long time etc. Nothing about the narrations show Ali in a bad light

>> No.17507228

>>17507112
>diminishing supply of oil
haven’t heard that one before lol

>> No.17507250

>>17507228
>oil will just keep appearing out of nothing

>> No.17507256

>>17507103
ummayid court records dumby! you cant just say no proof and go jerk you fragile ego off in a corner! Grainbrain spotted!

>> No.17507681

>>17506928
Ali is not Shi'a

>> No.17507687

>>17499265
non-arab muslims memorize it, yes (but don't understand what it means) just phonetically.

t. turk

>> No.17507706

>>17507681
Of course not, given that the Shi'a of Ali means the followers of Ali. One cannot be a follower of his own self.

>> No.17507721

>>17507687
It's no surprise. Turks are known by the surrounding people not to be the brightest.

>> No.17507733

>>17507721
better than being a muslim, though.

>> No.17507741

>>17507721
They're basically the only muslim people that has not been a living joke for the last 1000 years.

>> No.17507788

>>17507721
At least turks accomplished something useful (in part by killing arabs)

>> No.17508114

>>17507733
You're not a real Turk.

>> No.17508127

>>17508114
Says who, some paki or arab?

>> No.17508128

>>17499265
Don't you love the people who declare themselves rooted in "Judeo-Christian" tradition and share cherry picked segments of the Koran suggesting islam being militant?

>> No.17508206

>>17508127
A true Turk is proud of his Muslim heritage. You're just a western wannabe, a hollowed out copy.

>> No.17508232

>>17499265
Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night nor for the arrow that flieth by day, nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side and ten thousand at thy right hand but it shall not come nigh thee: only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

That's all I got though. I only remember it because it was the intro to a Cryptopsy song so I'm sure I listened to it dozens of times.

>> No.17508320

>>17508206
Don't even dare lay claim to Turkish achievements, arab.

>> No.17508590

>>17508320
I care not for your supposed achievement, NPC Turk

>> No.17508619

>>17508590
That is why your countries are shit.

>> No.17508647

>>17499772
>be a Christian
>believe the Bible is the literal word of God
>don't bother reading it
I've said it before and I'll day it again: Christianity is a larp.