/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17488800]

Books that refute SJW narrative about homosexuality in ancient Greece?

[Anonymous No.17488807]

>>17488800
>"ugly of uglies, odious-to-the-gods, and unholiest of things."
- Plato, Laws.

Plato himself anon.

[Anonymous No.17488815]

>historical facts are now SJW narratives
the absolute state of the right

[Anonymous No.17488819]

>>17488800
>>17488807
What is the "SJW narrative" about it? That it existed?

[Anonymous No.17488821]

>>17488800
Men in ancient Greece where so gay because they believed that you can only form meaningful relationships with men because women are retarded.

[Anonymous No.17488829]

>>17488815
*proceeds to "debunk" and question the Holodomor, Katyn executions and Ribbentrop-Molotov treatise*

[Anonymous No.17488834]

>>17488829
>unironically does the everyone I don't like is a bolshevik shtick
Next he's gonna hit us with the racemixing is communism line lol

[Anonymous No.17488838]

>>17488829
Based

[Anonymous No.17488851]

>>17488834
>missing the point

[Anonymous No.17488862]

Being homo is redpilled. It built camaraderie and companionship among the soldiers. You are far more likely to risk your life and die for your fellow soldier if you have an emotional attachment. It makes you fight harder.

[Anonymous No.17488867]

>>17488862
>sex is the most important emotional attachment
Literal retard. Nevertheless your main form of retardation here is thinking the soldiers fucked each other.

[Anonymous No.17488869]

Pederasty in ancient Greece is something that happened at the end of the 4th century BCE. It was less about adult men entering lifelong relationships with each other and more about older members of the elites fornicating with teenagers and young adults. People forget the Greek civilization lasted for several centuries, they obviously didn't always practice the same things or had the same beliefs and political views for 800 years. They also composed of several city states that were for the most part independent, so it also varied geographically.

[Anonymous No.17488870]

>>17488800
KEK unironically why do you care? They are all dead white males.

[Anonymous No.17488882]

>>17488851
>the point is significant

[Anonymous No.17488886]

>>17488867
>eroticism good holy between man and wife
>eroticism bad superficial between man and man
read about the sacred band of thebes

[Anonymous No.17488890]

Stop this revisionist bullshit. You are no better than them.

[Anonymous No.17489003]

>>17488869
Don’t you mean the end of the 5th century?

[Anonymous No.17489009]

>>17488890
Yes, exactly. Why should I care? Doesn't make much difference when I'm reading their books.

[Anonymous No.17489027]

>>17488886
What about them would be lost if they were not homosexuals? It's a redundancy, an embarrassment. Just jack off if you're lusty, don't inoculate another's gut biome with your dead jizz

[Anonymous No.17489029]

>>17489003
No, it was already common while Plato was alive.

[Anonymous No.17489033]

>>17489027
Don't you think there is a difference between exclusive erotic-romantic love and friendship?

[Anonymous No.17489044]

>>17489033
I think introducing erotic elements into a friendship/brotherhood perverts it and causes it to lose its scope. It's ultimately just a lusting after a body or organ (of a brother, not a lifelong partner), an opening up to weakness. And of course, a lifelong partner should be that person with which you can beget a child

[Anonymous No.17489048]

>>17489029
yeah that's why it can't have sprung up in the end of the 4th century BC. he was born around 430

[Anonymous No.17489056]

>>17488800
Literally just read the Greeks. All you have to do is read what they actually said.

[Anonymous No.17489057]

it was a predatory bisexuality toward twinks. grown men didn't fuck. And still homosexuality =/= modern lgbt-degeneracy

[Anonymous No.17489063]

>>17488800
they were gay. get over it, you giant goddamn pussy

[Anonymous No.17489065]

>>17488869
>members of the elites fornicating with teenagers and young adults
oy vey

[Anonymous No.17489083]

>>17489065
>these are the kind of boys who grow up to be politicians. When they're grown men, they are lovers of young men, and they naturally pay no attention to marriage or to making babies, except insofar as they are required by local custom.
Could be ahistorical, but still interesting idea

>based homosexuality!
>based race mixing!
>based transexuality!
>based castration!
We must return to a pagan Evropa

[Anonymous No.17489132]

>>17489083
there was no race mixing retard, and if trannies existed they were the lowest butt-slaves imaginable.
>>17488800
If you don't like it, stick the medievals friendo. Greeks were great lovers of the male form whether boys or men, and deep lovers of the male soul.

[Anonymous No.17489157]

>>17489132
The development of empires doesn't lead to the mixture of various races and cultures?

>no tranny shit in pagan myth, ever

[Anonymous No.17489158]

>>17488862
This anon is absolutely right >>17489044 in that it's opening up to weakness. Men who give in to one passion become more susceptible to all others.

[Anonymous No.17489167]

>>17489157
>The development of empires doesn't lead to the mixture of various races and cultures?
nice goalpost moving.
>no tranny shit in pagan myth, ever
there was tranny shit but it wasn't infected with liberalism therefore it was chill. There was homosexual orintation, femboys, catamites, eunuchs, hermaphrodites'. There was "lgbt" identity politics bullshit.

[Anonymous No.17489171]

>>17489132
>no race mixing retard
yet Dorians, Ionians and Aetolians were freely associating with each other

[Anonymous No.17489177]

>>17489158
except passion to kill, which they were supposed to give into I presume? Plato had no good argument against it. I prefer the nuance of Socrates.

[Anonymous No.17489188]

>>17488867
>away from home and on for long stretches of time with no womenfolk around

Same thing as the navy, my dude. Lots of guys think they’re 100% straight until they’re put in a situation where that’s put to the test.

[Anonymous No.17489189]

>>17489171
>English, Welsh, and Scottish are all freely assonating with each other. Therefore West African Bantu niggers should be able to rape white women!

[Anonymous No.17489193]

>>17488800
Plato, Xenophon and Aristotle.
Some homosexuality and pedastry did occur at certain time, in specific cities and limited to the portions of the elite.
Even then it was taboo and distasteful to most.

[Anonymous No.17489197]

>>17489044
>I think introducing erotic elements into a friendship/brotherhood perverts it and causes it to lose its scope.
Why? This hasn't been my experience. Again, these are exclusive relationships, different from normal friendships. Why is it a corrupting influence between two males, but an edifying one between a male and female?
>>17489158
Read the section about the 'army of lovers' in Plato's Symposium.

[Anonymous No.17489201]

>>17489057
Plato wrote fanfiction of the Iliad where Achilles and Patroclus fuck, anon.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17489203]

The Greeks were fags. Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.17489204]

>>17489193
>limited to the portions of the elite.
>Even then it was taboo and distasteful to most.
No source for this. A cope.

[Anonymous No.17489206]

>>17489193
I dare you to actually read Plato's work outside of "laws." He claims boy lovers get to go to Heaven because it's such a holy act.

[Anonymous No.17489210]

>>17488800
Greek pæderasty is quite anti-sjw, actually.

[Anonymous No.17489212]

>>17489204
>>17489193
All the great poets laud homosexuality.

[Anonymous No.17489218]

>>17489189
Major cities such as Athens, Alexandria, Rome, Antioch, etc. would have seen large diaspora populations of very foreign peoples.
In the same way that there is a population in Portsmouth England of Indians who have been there for ~300 years.
Now would it have been diverse as todays cities, no, as this was facilitated by the industrial revolution.
And would the populations have mixed as much, again no, as peoples traditions and identity would have been more firmly rooted.
But to say that no race-mixing would have occurred is revisionist nonsense.

[Anonymous No.17489230]

>>17489218
>But to say that no race-mixing would have occurred is revisionist nonsense.
Not what I said. Race mixing was frowned upon. I dislike your swarmy use of "race as synonymously with what we popular consider to be tribes and ethniciteis today. Not distinct races in themselves. That's the only revionist nonsense here. Your dishonest argumentation.

[Anonymous No.17489231]

>>17489167
>nice goalpost moving.
Accusing someone of goalpost moving doesn't address their point, especially when the goal post was always there; race-mixing still covers that caused by colonies and conquest.

>tranny and homo shit not infected with liberalism is chill and therefore okay
All of the things you listed are wrong in themselves, easily for the same reasons race mixing are wrong. It's maladaptive, imperfect, probably caused by molestation as a young boy by another homosexual or pederast.

[Anonymous No.17489232]

>>17489177
Uncontrolled passion to kill will only get you —and possibly your bandmates— killed. Fighting is about controlled and orderly aggression. This is why discipline and self-control is so strictly emphasized in bootcamp.

[Anonymous No.17489246]

>>17489232
>Fighting is about controlled and orderly aggression.
So is love, which is exactly what Socrates argues in Phaedrus in favor of pederasty.
>>17489231
>something is eugenic therefore good
I'd rather love the form of beauty in the way of getting my ass hammered than become a vagina slave.

[Anonymous No.17489267]

>>17488886
>Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.
Philip

[Anonymous No.17489285]

>>17489267
The Band were described as pairs of erastes and eromenos, the etymological origin of both words being eros. Philip's quote (at least in this translation, I don't know about the Greek) is ambiguous, and might be rebuking people who call their homosexual relationships unseemly.

[Anonymous No.17489286]

>>17489204
Xenophon Constitution of Sparta 2.12
"In Boetia, men and boys live together as if they were married; in Elis, they attract a young man by favours; again, there are states where men are absolutely forbidden even to speak to boys in these circumstances"
Then on Sparta 2.13-14
"If an honourable man admired a boy's character, and wished to become his friend in all innocence, and spend time with him, he [Lycurgus] approved... If, however, a man was clearly physically attracted to a boy, he classed this as a heinous disgrace, and ensured in Sparta there is no more physical love between men and boys than there is between parents and children or brother and brother"
>>17489206
Care to source?

[Anonymous No.17489287]

>>17489189
>>17489230
ethnicity ≈ race. just get over your xenophobia

[Anonymous No.17489288]

>>17489218
Metic weren't even granted equal rights at Athens and mind you most of them were greeks.
Stop projecting your global village upon antiquity city state.

[Anonymous No.17489316]

>>17489206
He changed his mind and recognized it as a degenerate act later in life

[Anonymous No.17489319]

>>17489286
Those quotes don't demonstrate anything about a popular vs. elite attitude - of course there were differences between city states. You haven't shown that there was a class difference within city states, or that "the majority" disapproved. If that were the case, you'd think it would show up in their art or literature somewhere. Modern Western "elite" productions on the topic of homosexuality are full of crap dealing with the existence of homophobia. Greek texts don't have this neurotic attitude. Its existence is taken for granted.

[Anonymous No.17489321]

>>17489230
>Race mixing was frowned upon
Source?
I'm not saying race mixing was common, but it did happen.
Are not Ethiopians and Semites distinct from Europeans?

[Anonymous No.17489326]

>>17489286
>Care to source?
Phaedrus.

[Anonymous No.17489334]

Achilles and patroclus were gay

[Anonymous No.17489355]

>>17489027
It’s not about society, it’s about them being happy is individuals.

[Anonymous No.17489374]

>>17489197
It is edifying between a male and a female when the two are brought together in marriage- they have intercourse in order to solidify that bond, but primarily to have children. But a man introducing sensuality into his relationship with a man sensualizes and perverts his relationship, turning it from something ideal and warriorly to something licentious; you can idealize these sacred homosexuals, but the reality can only be one thing. Speak of these experiences, if you will; I would like to see this idea challenged.

>So Zeus brought about this reproduction of genitals, and in doing so he invented interior reproduction, by the man in the woman. The purpose of this was so that, when a man embraced a woman, he would cast his seed and they would have children; but when male embraced male, they would at least have the satisfaction of intercourse, after which they would stop embracing, return to their jobs, and look after their other needs in life (p.27)

It's just a redundancy; this "need" for sex (aside from being something that can be redirected) can be better served by other things. Otherwise, you introduce a barren sensuality into what should be a dignant and serious relationship. I do not see how having sex with a man can be anything but indignant and disgusting, especially considering the preparations that need to be made (lest you damage the organ not designed for penetration, but rather for expulsion of waste; or lest you dirty your own member).

It's not the kind of relationship I want to have with a brother; it would be a corrupting influence because a brotherly relationship ought not to have a sexual tint to it. I view sex as an action designed for the male and female genital organs, not the male genital organ and the male anus; it's at best a satisfaction of base sexuality, turning into a perversion, turning into sacredness and philosophized loftiness (if you are a cultured and sensible pederast, like those giving their speeches in the Symposium).

It's like asking "why is it bad to put hot chocolate in a wine bag? A wine bag is just like a cup!" It is not so; hot chocolate (sexual relations) is suitable and intended by nature only for the cup, which best receives it. It is imposed upon the wine bag, unnaturally thrusted upon that circumstance as necessity dictates or as perverse tastes desire.

In other words- "why is it a corrupting influence?" Because relations between men are different than those between men and women, who are sexual opposites. It is not as Aristophanes says, that we were split by Zeus (whereas we had previously been conjoined lesbians, homosexuals, or heterosexuals).

>>17489206
But it's not given the coomer tint that chantards would desire or naturally have; it's still wrong, being a rationalized evilness, likely for their own molestation at a young age

[Anonymous No.17489378]

>>17489316
That always happens, right? Someone like Plato or St. Augustine live a youth of love and passion yet when they become old, their libido slows down, suddenly it's not good to be that way. I love Plato....but that mindset is full of shit . Not saying views can't evolve over time. they do and should, just saying that I don't view this particular type of evolution as genuine.
>>17489287
I got no problem defining race as ethnicity. It's so uncommon in this day that it needs to clarified beforehand for meaningful discussion.

[Anonymous No.17489399]

>>17489319
Go read Thornton you lust-addled degenerate.

[Anonymous No.17489424]

>>17488800

[Anonymous No.17489431]

>>17489374
What makes homosexuality higher is precisely because it's beyond the "need" for sex. It's like celibacy: it transcends biological materialism. It's pure spirit. That's why so many celibates are also practicing homosexuals btw .
>especially considering the preparations that need to be made (lest you damage the organ not designed for penetration, but rather for expulsion of waste; or lest you dirty your own member).
I hate to break it to you but the vagina is using for both peeing and menstruation and peeing. The penis is used for both cumming and peeing. Something can "dispel bodily waste" and also be a sex organ. In the case of the ass, God made the prostrate able to orgasm. He knew what he was doing.

[Anonymous No.17489444]

>books that reinforce my own ill-conceived notions

You should be seeking the truth, not what you want the truth to be.

[Anonymous No.17489453]

/lit/ is full of shitty readers who read Plato with more dogmatism than Bible and refuse to read secondaries. Plato doesn't 'say' anything. Depending on where you look, there are a number of arguments about homosexuality. I generally get the impression that he was not in favor of traditional pederasty.

[Anonymous No.17489466]

>>17489246
>I'd rather love the form of beauty in the way of getting my ass hammered
No further comment needed. And yet we must appreciate beauty because of some metaphysical quality, or the intelligence and greatness of men- lust or physical attraction, they say, does not engender a long-lived relationship; why is it, then, that these faggots only talk about the physical aspects, the effeminacy, the overt beauty, the beardlessness of their beloved? You remain at the physical, when you should, according to the progression of beauties, have matured to a further stage.

>vagina slave
That's like calling your lover an anus slave
Also, if it's anything to you guys, here's a footnote from page 16 of the Symposium:

>This is not true. Xenophon holds Pausanias up to criticism for over-stating the case for homosexuality, in his Symposium, at viii.34. Athenian custom condemned many manifestations of homosexuality. See Dover, Greek Homosexuality, especially pp. 104-107. For Plato's condemnation of the sexual act between males, see Phaedrus 250E (where he calls this an 'unnatural pleasure") and 225-56E as well as Republic 403B-C and Laws 636-37 and 838E (which forbids "homosexual relations that deliberately wipe out the human race"). Plato does not represent this view as one his fellow Athenians would have found controversial.

>to give oneself to a vile man in a vile way is truly disgraceful behavior; by contrast, it is perfectly honorable to give oneself honorably to the right man. Now you may want to know who counts as vile in this context. I'll tell you: it is the common, vulgar lover who loves the BODY rather than the soul, the man whose love is bound to be inconstant, since what he loves is itself mutable and unstable. The moment the body is no longer in bloom, "he flies off and away..." How different from this is a man who loves the right sort of character, and who remains its lover for life, attached as he is to something that is permanent (p.17)
I believe this is only possible with men and women; the permanent, ideal relationship between men should not be sexual because the sexuality there is at worst based on base lust, at best based on necessity. With a woman, the sexual act is redeemed by its procreative element.

[Anonymous No.17489487]

>>17488800
Greeks being gay IS THE REFUTATION.
SJW lie that homosexaulity is something youre boen with. The fact that 90% of greek elites were gay proves it wrong. Homosexaulity is a deviancy that has diffrent causes.

[Anonymous No.17489499]

>>17488800
If the greatest men who ever lived where ok with fucking teenage bussy then who am I to judge?

[Anonymous No.17489508]

>>17489453
What about Aristophanes' myth in the Symposium?

[Anonymous No.17489513]

I am so sick of this culture war bullshit, why do you care if some dudes fucked eachother in the ass hundreds of years ago

Why can't people just live their lives?

[Anonymous No.17489514]

>>17489065
Greek pederasty and nudity was a scandal to the Hebrews

[Anonymous No.17489543]

>>17489431
>That's why so many celibates are also practicing homosexuals btw .
Homosexual phagocytosis; you attempt to appropriate a community by discovering "homoeroticisms" or simply projecting with not a shred of evidence.

>homosexuality is beyond the need for sex
If I can appreciate another man's body without being sexually attracted to it, appreciating it in an unequivocal way; if I do not have sex with said man, what is homosexual about it? It sounds more brotherly

>the vagina is used for both peeing and menstruation
>the vagina pees out of the urethra above the vaginal opening, therefore the interior of the vagina is lined with urine
Something that cannot be said of the anus. Imagine a host of ancient soldiers, each douching their anuses before battle. A very masculine behavior, to turn a formidable body of soldiers into the antique equivalent of a gay pride parade.

The vagina is also self-lubricating and a hostile environment for pathogens. The anus does not self-lubricate like the vagina; the anus does not even produce enough mucus for anal sex. Anal sex and vaginal sex are two different things, mate; the vagina does not expel waste, the urethra above it does. The urethra in the male organ is not penetrated, either (unless you're extra spiritual), so that's irrelevant.

>God made the prostate able to orgasm
Is this where the pagans believe the seat of the soul is located? They keep alluding to it, otherwise I do not see how they can continue alluding to such bodily characteristics while maintaining that they are "spiritual" and homosexuality is "pure spirit."

[Anonymous No.17489559]

>>17489543
>The vagina is also self-lubricating and a hostile environment for pathogens.
you're a real vagina expert. You must spend a lot of time prepping your foids slit for her bull.

[Anonymous No.17489567]

>>17489559
I just searched it up on the internet. Besides, I learned that shit in high school classes. But it's nice to find out that MGTOW is also down with this legion of the prolapsed you belong to.

[Anonymous No.17489652]

>>17489029
5th century is older than 4th

[Anonymous No.17489660]

>>17489374
You've made an effortpost which I'm too busy to address in the manner it deserves at the moment. I'll try to reply to this a little later. Hopefully the thread doesn't die before then.

[Anonymous No.17489907]

>>17488800
What is the “SJW narrative” about homosexuality in Ancient Greece?

[Anonymous No.17489925]

>>17489907
OP seems to think SJWs invented, out of whole cloth, that Ancient Greeks engaged in homosexual acts. He is looking for books that ignore the very obvious and very real evidence like pic rel.

[Anonymous No.17489943]

>>17488800
You don't need any book other than the primary sources. Plato makes it clear that it's normal for men to have emotional attachments to one another and sleep together. It's implied sexual acts happen between them, though not being fucked in the bum, just jerked off or something. Pederasty is not a narrative; it's a well documented social structure of ancient Greece because they thought women were too simple to form real connections with.

[Anonymous No.17490841]

>>17489132

[Anonymous No.17490851]

>>17488815
They’re not historical facts. Are Catgirls common in Japan because they exist in Light Novels? They were put in literature precisely because they were shocking.

[Anonymous No.17490855]

>please feed me books that confirm my incel opinion

Pic related, it’s you. Have secks

[Anonymous No.17490859]

>>17490851
So greeks were just a bunch of fujos

[Anonymous No.17490886]

>>17490851
>They were put in literature precisely because they were shocking.
Dumbest thing I've ever read. You have never read the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.17491034]

>>17490851
the concept of homosexuality as it does now did not back then, it's anachronistic, but they sure as hell were fucking boys in the ass in exchange for knowledge
ever heard of pederasty, retard?

[Anonymous No.17491095]

>>17488807
>Plato right before busting that bussy wide open