/lit/ - Literature

if you have a soul: Jane Austen

>>17486752
Guenon and de Beauvoir

>>17486763
Why Guénon?

Theology of the Body by John Paul II

>>17486772
So that you can see how delusional misogyny makes you

>>17486752
>What do I read to stop being a misogynist?
Do you know why the standard response to angry incelposting was "have sex"?
It's because you all are wrapped up in fantasies that are far too removed from any real world bases. And saying you want a book to change your mind is yet more fantasizing.

The real cure is not bookreading, but real world experience---if you can convince a woman to spend time with you and have intimate relations with you.

You'll need to fall in love and realize that barely any of the things pol9k told you to care about matter to you, because she's not gonna be perfect, but she makes you happier than anyone else ever has and that's what's really important. You stop viewing the relationship selfishly, as a means to your own pleasure, and begin to see her as a human too with her own wants and needs that you must fulfill too---because if she isn't happy, she will leave you, and then you will be unhappy too.

TL;DR my diary desu

>>17486845
>tfw this had the opposite effect on me

>>17486845
No, HAHA, not at all. You’ll love a girl and then slowly realize she not only confirms everything others said, but goes even worse than that. And so then the pain is double, because you’re not lying in your resentment, but you’re falling from a great height. This is why there are those who never recover from certain relationships.

>>17486845
Shes going to leave fag. Shes going to go fuck someone else and youll come out like a simp and get here even more bitter than before. Woman hate youre "special human being that if is un happy makes me un happy too", dont get serious and youll be fine. Dont hate woman that retarded. Just see them as what they are. Take out the pink glasses

>>17486845
By the way, I know you’re a woman with those last few sentences. Always about her happiness, ahh her happiness. And I suppose if she finds happiness in humiliating you? Or she finds happiness in putting an icepick in your head? You women think your happiness is the most important thing in the world. If you were in front of me right now I’d smack you in the head.

>>17486864
>>17486868
>>17486873
cope

>>17486848
>>17486864
>>17486868
>>17486873

Fucking hell, I should stop reading books altogether and go outside before I end up as depraved and degenerate as you sad fucks.

>>17486868
>>17486864
>>17486873
not them but do you even have a GF?
I agree with the post mostly & am married to a published fashion model living innawoods tradlife, planning to buy & live on a sailboat within a few years since it's financially feasible now.
Just because you're inferior specimens or toxic or whatever is wrong with you doesn't mean the poster isn't mostly right.

>>17486845
>you'll like women more once you know them
That's the complete opposite of the truth. In fact I've realised in the three years since I used to post on /r9k/ that they almost view women through rose tinted glasses. Their image of women was far kinder, far more positive than the truth. Real women are abhorrent.

>>17486884
Don’t care
>>17486892
Faggot
>>17486901
Nice fantasy. Consider killing yourself

>>17486925
>nice fantasy
the copium has made you resistant to reality
this is the most proof you get because I don't want our shit blown out, but just know that you're legitimately deluding yourself and depriving yourself of happier futures because you'd rather assume you know everything and that being toxic is actually a superior way of life.

>>17486752

>>17486963
based 12/32 misogynist. my favorite post from december the 32nd of 2020. women on 12/32 btfo at 21:09:40.

>>17486845
>real world experience---if you can convince a woman to spend time with you and have intimate relations with you.
I tried this and it made me hate most women my age even more. Thought I was in love until I realised what a manipulative, arrogant, delusional, entitled nitwit she was. I'm so glad I snapped out of it and broke up with her.
Honestly, I really have only myself to blame. There were plenty of times that I thought I should bail, but I let "love" overpower my better judgement. Untempered by reason, love will completely fuck you up and not in a good way at all.
Maybe it's just because I live on the West Coast, but I have yet run into a woman who isn't, to at least some degree, a fart smelling shit lib addicted to victimhood. I don't think I can tolerate anymore social media posts intended to "raise awareness" about some social justice cause that literally doesn't matter.

>>17486955
Wow, you look like a couple of weirdos. Congrats. For us who actually find it hard to entertain weirdos we have to look for more neurotypical women which is who I’m talking about. Go smell a mushroom

>>17486873
>Always about her happiness
Women have never wanted "equality". They've always just wanted special treatment.

>>17486845
I've been cheated, I've had women who were taken lust after me, I've had friends drop off the map becauee of controlling girls, I've had my reputation destroyed in baseless drama, it was real. You got lucky.
Obv these kids need to get over their hate, but patronizing them just makes them angrier. I could have saved myself alot of trouble if I knew some "misogynistic" stuff earlier, because some of its true.

>>17486845
human sexual relationships aren't supposed to be about the happiness of either the man or the woman
it's about babies
it's about making them
and rearing them
this is why anything "lgbt" is nonsensical from the start - because it defeats the whole purpose
not happiness; duty

>>17486752
School for Wives is an hilarious satire on misogyny.

I believe the best advice in this thread is to get to know women IRL and not to take your relationships with them too seriously. Recognize it’s for your enjoyment and entertainment and don’t let somebody else manipulate you. It’s a game

>>17487009
>wanting to breathe the air is weird
>sour grapes
cope
you can change the thought processes that bring you to this same sad, lonely reality
you're choosing your own suffering

>>17487088
You seem like a reasonable dude so I'm wondering if you can give me a straight answer to the question I'm gonna ask unlike that dweeb >>17486845. What's the motive for being in a relationship with a woman? I've never been in a relationship and have never really felt that anything was lacking in my life. I don't feel compelled to seek one out.
Based on a lot of what I've gathered over the years it seems like men and women really don't have much in common with one another and don't really seem to like one another all that much outside of the fact that biological instinct compels them to seek one another out.
I have a hypothesis that "love" was evolved to make men and women able to tolerate one another. If they actually were able to get along with and appreciate one another "naturally", the way I am able to with my same sex friends, then why would evolution have created love? Honestly, I have never been friends with a woman. They just don't interest me socially. At best I find them unrelatable, at worst I find them annoying. I'm sexually attracted to them, but I can take care of that by masturbating.
So, what is the motive for getting into a relationship? If it's just about sex, I can't imagine that tolerating all the rest would make it worth it. If it's about the "warm fuzzies" that people get when they hear "I love you", is that really worth all headaches, compromises, and the work that it seems to require to be in a relationship? Or is it maybe just about conforming to social expectations? People always act like I've revealed something aberrative about myself when I tell them that I've never been in a relationship and I do not understand why. What am I missing?

It's not about all women. I dislike most people I encounter. All I need is a few I like. So "misoginy" isn't a concern to me because mainly I'm looking for a few friends and one special girl. The rest of womanhood or manhood can be as depraved as they want so long as I'm not being murdered.

You gotta believe in that one special encounter and wade through a mud pile to find it. That's always been the case. Just accept that you're probably hard to please and not everyone will be compatible with you.

>>17486845
The retort of "have sex" is funny, the most harmful misogynists are men who decide to find a way to scam women into having sex rather than address the deeper problems they have with the world. How many more sex pests, sex tourists, PUAs, and predators have been created by the mindset that bitter young men just need to "have sex"?

>>17486868
>Shes going to leave fag.
She already has.
>Shes going to go fuck someone else
She soon will if it hasn't already happened.

I would respond to the rest of your post but I barely grasp what you're trying to say.

>By the way, I know you’re a woman
I'm not.

>>17486997
>>17487088
>weak men are unloved and taken advantage of
shocking
might as well just give up on women then, hunh? hope your own hands are enough physical contact for you

face the fact: if you're heterosexual, you "need" women, and deciding you hate them and will give up on them is really just cope for not being the kind of man who can handle them---that is to say, a *man* proper

>>17487122
eating isn't about taste: it's about satisfying nutritional needs
sleeping isn't about comfort: it's about restoring energy

you can reduce any "needless" pleasures to their actual essentials, and the result will be an absurd ascetic perspective that rejects things like chocolate and pillows

>>17487219
>What am I missing?
Someone whose body is designed to excitedly stimulate your senses, and comes equipped with a way to stimulate the most sensitive part of your body. Someone who will do things for and with you, to alleviate your loneliness and uplift your spirit.

>>17487244
>Just accept that you're probably hard to please and not everyone will be compatible with you.
this
and don't take it for granted when you find it, otherwise when you lose it for good, you'e going to regret blowing your one shot for the rest of your life

>>17487219
I’m not him but you answered your own question. If you didn’t fall for the fairy tale view of relationships/marriage then the point of a relationship is to have a sexual partner that you like being around. If your sexual needs are being satisfied already then there isn’t a problem. The question is just are you being honest with yourself? Are you actually curious about engaging with a woman but perhaps afraid? Also if you aren’t autistic it should be obvious that the cultural norm is having a Disney relationship and living happily ever after with your partner, it’s considered the biggest purpose of life. Naturally telling people you don’t desire that is going to make people question you because that’s what their purpose is all about.

>>17486752
Kreutzer Sonata by Leo Tolstoy

>>17487274
>the point of a relationship is to have a sexual partner that you like being around.
So it's really just about sex? I'm sure I would enjoy having a sexual partner - I'm sure I would enjoy having a car with heated seats too - but I'm fine without these things. It doesn't seem like it's worth the effort required to acquire them.

>>17487272
>alleviate your loneliness and uplift your spirit.
I don't feel lonely though. Friends and hobbies uplift my spirit.

Read Nietzsche.

>>17487295
A relationship is about whatever you want it to be about. Maybe a relationship is not just about sex. That is something you will never find out just by speculating about it. If you are curious, which it sounds like you are, you may find out for yourself what a relationship is about. But whatever your relationship is about, may be different from what others relationship is about. For me it is a sexual thing. I agree it’s not needed. If you are lonely it is needed, if you aren’t lonely it isn’t needed. It’s something I desire.

>>17487219
It's like always hanging out with every different best friend I've had at various points throughout my life, and I get to have sex with him, and it's not even gay because it's an incredibly attractive woman that I share a house and life with.

>>17487263
both of those are true, read epicurus

>>17487263
>needs chocolate and pillows
filthy sense-enjoyer

>>17486752
Nothing.

>>17486752
You're not angry at dogs for being dogs because you accept that they are different from you and what they are and can't change it. So accept that women are different, with different needs and roles and accept that they're different. Take them for what they are and don't be angry. Same goes for angry feminists, take the other sex as what they are

>>17487452
He asked how to STOP being a misogynist, chud. Have sex.

>>17486845
Why would fucking a random cum dumpster improve my views on women?

>>17486845
This is the faggiest shit ever. Gonna make it a new copy-pasta. Thanks

>>17487263
>an absurd ascetic perspective that rejects things like chocolate and pillows
Based

>>17486892
>Fucking hell, I should stop reading books altogether and go outside before I end up as depraved and degenerate as you sad fucks.
You're already a woman so it's too late

>>17486955
Trying to justify your shitty life that no one cares about on a mexican poncho weaving forum, yeah you're a real success story whose opinion I should take seriously lmao

>>17487459
>Have sex.
I do. My post says accept the differences. Men should take women for what they are and women should take men for what they are instead of putting expectations for how they should be different on them

>>17486845
>get woman because she will fulfill your needs
>have to fulfill her needs or she will leave
>no time for my needs
This is the opposite of why you would want a woman.

>>17487263
>he uses a pillow
not hardwood floor pilled, ngmi

>>17487499
A post so based it got overlooked

>>17486873
>And I suppose if she finds happiness in humiliating you? Or she finds happiness in putting an icepick in your head?
where do i find a woman like this, bros? tfw no icepick domme gf

reminder

>>17486752
>>17487263
>eating isn't about taste: it's about satisfying nutritional needs
>sleeping isn't about comfort: it's about restoring energy
These are true.
>rejects things like chocolate
everyone should reject that
>and pillows
That would hurt your neck.

Misogyny can be caused by many factors. Some misogynists are successful, others are losers. But the 4chan/internet/incel misogyny is pretty clearly of the later variety, a desire for women being frustrated and turned into extreme butthurt.

>>17486845
GAY

>>17486873
did a 14 year old write this?

>>17486752
Avoid woman.

>>17486752
these desu

>>17486752
Aristotle

What books do I read to stop being a misandrist?

>>17486845
Spending time around women will only make him hate them more.

>>17486955
having an onlyfans doesn't make your cumdumpster into a model, anon... Also, you both look like androgynous hipsters...congrats, you made it!

>>17488633
The Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar.

>>17486752
Better yet, what do I read to become more misogynist?

>>17486758
lol no that will make you more mysoginist if you have a brain
Read the song of songs and accept the Love which makes the universe go.

>>17486845
>Do you know why the standard response to angry incelposting was "have sex"?
because you equate having sex with success in life and being a member of respectable society while in reality you're just a pussy whipped normie.

>>17488669
Sex and character

>>17488681
Based Weininger

>>17486845
great b8.

>>17486758
this

>>17487259
Yes I was weak when I was taken advantage of, and I've seen the other side too that as I grew stronger. I guess I missed the definition of misogyny when I wrote that out, I don't hate women, but in getting stronger you need some skepticism and will come to conclusions that are sexist. Women's nature is not the same as yours

>>17489679
>I don't hate women, but in getting stronger you need some skepticism and will come to conclusions that are sexist
This is true, but as you acknowledge, that doesn't mean you'll hate them. It turns out it's a very fine line, a healthy view of women, that treats them as neither subhuman nor divine.
It seems impossible for a lot of modern men though, so so much for their happiness. Hopefully everyone will get it eventually, and stop putting themselves in the position of a victim.

>>17487517
yet here's my (you) and you have nothing to counter with beyond froth while I'm still comfy in bed next to her.
>>17488649
No onlyfans. Has been in shows you've seen, mostly print media and live fashion events you haven't seen.
>no one with anything beyond a normal boring life is EVER on 4chan and if your life isn't as boring and loveless as mine then it's FLAWED and the grapes our SOUR
never change, nerds

>>17487793
Literally anywhere you fucking retard. It's not going to be what you're looking for in your fantasy though.

>>17486763
Do yourself a favour and read Esther Villar instead of Beauvoir.
>>17486848
This is literally true, my opinion of women dropped tremendously as soon as I started spending large amounts of time speaking to them. They're constantly whining and whining about stupid, inane, vapid shit that no sane person could care any less about - like what their dumb coworkers were gossiping about during lunch break or who said what about whom. I can hardly understand how they can remember that shit. Their attempts at manipulating you are so transparent and insipid as well; they're not even interesting enough for a study, I wonder how Weininger had the energy to bother with the problem of women. Nietzsche was right about them, they really want nothing other than to bleat and be comfortable, forever.
There is an issue with "male fantasies", but the issue is that men imagine cute, perky and energetic, beautiful goddesses. In fact, women, even when they are beautiful, are extremely boring and shallow. If you ever think you are speaking to a "highly educated" and "intelligent" woman, I implore you to ask her to tell you more about herself, her concerns and what she considers most important in life, how she spends her days etc - you will see that no matter how much Shakespeare or Chaucer she has read and memorised, in the end of the day there has been no existential or personal growth at all and she is just like the rest of her kind.

>>17486752
By acknowledging you aren't in the wrong by hating women

>>17491377
How do men spend their days that is generally more meaningful?

>>17486845
Actually this. While I was never an active mysogynist, finding someone that validated you and taught you that you could be loved and to not think so low on yourself helps you understand the wants and needs of others as well. Seriously, have sex.

>>17491920
I don't know, most men are probably also pretty vapid but half of the men alive today are basically spiritual women so it's hard to make any serious judgement.

>men who have good experiences with women like women
>men who have bad experiences with women hate women
We sure have learned a lot in this thread

>>17486845
>because if she isn't happy, she will leave you, and then you will be unhappy too
Holy shit you’re a faggot or a bitch

>>17492106
Retard

>>17492079
>finding someone that validated you and taught you that you could be loved
And in my case, that *I* could love.
I thought I was a schizoid because so much of my life sucked and none of it enthused me whatsoever; all it took was someone special and I realized that I'm not as close to the symptoms as I had thought.

>>17492100
>half of the men alive today are basically spiritual women
I'm afraid the proportion is much, much higher than that.
Remember: 80:20.

>>17486752
own suicide note

>>17492178
I wouldn't go that far. There certainly are a lot of un-masculine men, but how many of them are spineless fencesitter conformists obsessed with gossip and momentary pleasure? A large proportion, for sure, but no more than 40% imo. I think a lot of guys would love to be different if only they were given the chance, the tools and the information necessary to stop being gay.

>>17492209
But women wouldn't?

>>17486752
twitter

>>17486752
The Awakening by Kate Chopin.

>>17492338
Why would they? What is their more natural state?

>>17486752
Spend as little time around women as possible.

>>17486868
>Shes going to leave
It happens. Women leave. No need to be a pussy about it.

Every relationship you have will end.

>>17487122
Homosexuals are motivated by the exact thing that motivates almost all heterosexuals; Sexual and romantic satisfaction. Sex is motivated by the underlying urge to do it, not an understanding of evolution. Most straight sex is happening for the fun of it with express care taken to avoid pregnancy which makes it indistinguishable ethically from gay sex. Unless you think sex should only ever happen to make a kid?

>>17487452
Ironically a lot of misogyny stems from this loss of intuitive understanding of essential differences between the sexes. Reading supposedly "misogynist" writers like Paglia and Blake did more to help me come to peace with the women in my life than any feminist delusions of deconstructing gender. Also Freud, to help you understand that your mother and other caretaker figures will set the tone for the rest of your life.

>>17491377
>personal growth
This post just oozes personal growth. You're really nailing it anon.

>>17486752
''That doesn’t, however, stop me from wondering why men are as they are. They’re violent, selfish, lazy and cowardly. It doesn’t stop me wondering why we women are supposed graciously to accept their flaws – what am I saying, I mean their deficiencies – even though men beat, rape and murder us. Boys will be boys.''

''This is how they become misandrists. Because there simply aren’t very many other options, and because, once they’ve had their eyes opened to the profound mediocrity of the majority of men, there’s no good reason to carry on liking them by default''

This is not a bait. I think this is a pretty good argument. Most men are mediocre, this is a fact. Most women are mediocre as well, but unlike women's, men's mediocrity comes with an added spice: them being the cause of world's 90% evil and oppression. So there's strong reason to have discontent to be the default attitude towards them.

>>16927814

>>17491377
You accidentally described everybody

>>17486873
Truthpilled.
Women will end relationships if the feefee supply runs dry, no matter the cost.
They are brave and emancipated for doing so as well.

Easy.

>>17492826
Sometimes they end in one of your deaths

>>17493519
She's cute, anymore of her?

>>17493577
Lurk more newfag.

>>17487088
Good take.

>>17493519
Who is this slut and what did she do

>>17492353
That had the opposite effect

>>17486911
people are generally abhorrent you fucking imbecile

>>17493719
>>17493577
facial abuse mayli

>>17486955
kek she is way too small to be a model

>>17487219
I feel like, in a way, you are touching on a broader aspect of the imperfect human condition.
Love is far from the only thing that follows this line of logic; the same idea can be applied to deep friendships, our quest for greater understanding of the world, our desire for power, and anything that we engage in other than eating and sleeping.
We are just fine without many if the things we engage in/strive for in our lives, and many times these things actually impede our ability to be happy. However, I'd argue that in order to live completely it's necessary to engage with these flawed aspects of our existence because our existence is fundamentally related to our imperfecy physical bodies whether we like it or not. To try to deny this or live differently is nothing short of self delusion.
Your egotistical nature, your sexual degeneracy, etc. are inescapable because they are fundamentally linked to your body/brain, and therefore existence.
There is no other way to exist.
So embrace it, just dont get too carried away and see it for what it truly is.

Imagine being born a woman

>>17493453
This. I remember I used to be far more misogynistic when I was an introvert who didn't talk to many men or women. All of my close friends were male and they were quite smart. I assumed that if I made more friends that I was going to find more interesting men and more shallow women based on the group I had surrounded myself with, but this wasn't the case at all. The majority of men are just as dislikable and mediocre as women are made out to be on 4chan or incel communities. The thing that bothered me about the mediocre men I met though was that they thought they were exceptional. Despite the fact that men are less likely to seek therapy or similar services, there are still more men that are diagnosed narcissists compared to women. This is probably why men are more likely to perpetuate violence and evil; men believe they are superior. I don't think my view of women has improved, but rather that I see men as they truly are now. People in general are quite shit.

>>17486845
This is literally what made me a misogynist. If you live in the west, going outside will simply make you more sexist, racist and anti-homotic.

>>17494586
I concur with your perspective mostly. From my own perspective, I see no real reason or justification why weak and mediocre men deserve love.

Other men don't respect you---at least the ones with brains enough to see you for what you truly are---so why should women, whose entire biological existence is predicated on acquiring for herself the best possible male mate she can? Why do you resent women not treating you well, but not the men too? Because you think you're entitled to a woman of your own? What have you done, and what are you, to deserve sex or love?

Now deeply insecure men will try to effeminately flip the script and say
>"AKSHUALLY WOMEN DON'T DESERVE LOVE EITHER, THEY'RE JUST AS MEDIOCRE IF NOT WORSE!"
Well newsflash faggot, *you're* the male---or, at least, you're *supposed* to be; but it looks like you'd rather bitch and moan about how unfair it is and relish being a victim, instead of growing up, taking responsibility for your status in life, fixing it and yourself, and becoming a man that women actually want to be around and with. I understand being frustrated that it's difficult to figure out how to actually become that, but most 4chan users are just straight up too lazy and too complacent to even attempt this maturation, even if they did know precisely how to achieve this result. It's easier to just declare that the grapes are sour.

>HAHA INCELS SEETHE ITT. lmao none of you will ever have sex and it’s all your own fucking faults bc you cannot look inward and see that the common denominator in your women problems is YOU. like maybe try being fucking pleasant for once lmao. if you hate women SPOILER ALERT they’ll hate you right back you pathetic little shitcunts.
>>16928225

>>17486758
>>17488583
In addition to these:

Hangsaman, Shirley Jackson
The Idiot, Elif Batuman
Their Eyes Were Watching God, Zora Neale Hurston

>>17493453
> them being the cause of world's 90% evil and oppression.
Men are also the cause of 99% of the worlds advancement and the continuation of civilization, stay humble faggot.

>>17495205
>Men are also the cause of 99% of the worlds advancement and and the continuation of civilization
Of which the top 1% do 99% of the most important work; of which neither you nor your pappy nor your pappy's pappy nor his great-great-great-great pappy number. Stay humble, faggot.

>>17494669
Anon, let's hear your thoughts about this part in particular:
>The thing that bothered me about the mediocre men I met though was that they thought they were exceptional. Despite the fact that men are less likely to seek therapy or similar services, there are still more men that are diagnosed narcissists compared to women.

>>17495320
I just wrote something similar to that in my diary in the past hour. So maybe you were looking for something more rational in response to this, but I've got something more personal so I'll share that with you instead:

>I want to start over with [my girl], as a changed man. ... I don't want to be a weak man anymore who dreams up more and more problems where none before needed to exist. I wanted too much from [my girl] that I didn't deserve, and I was indignant when I had little to no justification to be about being refused what I wanted. I want her to give me a second chance to prove that I'm worthy. I didn't realize I was in the wrong until she punished me by taking herself away from me.

>I was overly arrogant in a way, and I needed my ego checked. I say "in a way", because although I'm not exactly a prideful or vain person, I still refused to come to the conclusion that my inadequacies truly made me nigh worthless, and that I needed to shape up or eat shit. I thought I was better than I had the right to believe. I know I'm a fucking loser and potential doesn't mean shit when you spend [5+] years past age 18 doing nothing to manifest it. I was used to coasting by life without putting in any real effort until the final hour; I lacked the discipline to actually make tangible real world gains that weren't easy pickings.

That's what I wrote, reflecting on a recent and tragic fuck-up.

Essentially, immature men will think they're good enough to deserve attention and effort from women, when they're really not (yet). But instead of realizing that they need to work on themselves more, they get angry they aren't being accepted "for who they are" as if it's wrong for women---after reading so many horror stories about women who tried and failed to "change" their men"---to not want to take a chance on what is essentially a stalled project: a man who goes on and on about how he has the potential to one day be something great, but is at this point far too arrogant to admit he needs to start getting his ass in gear sooner rather than later. And it's the lack of honest self-reflection, the unwillingness to admit how much they suck, that is holding back so many men these days from reaching for happiness.

>>17495320
>>17495473
One last thing, I sorta forgot to add: unless you're Chad, you have no real reason/justification to be 100% confident about yourself. You may not be "worthless" exactly, but you sure ain't hot shit, and shouldn't be surprised then when other people esteem you as not being worth the time and effort. If you don't like it, do better, be better.

>>17495473
>it's the lack of honest self-reflection, the unwillingness to admit how much they suck, that is holding back so many men these days from reaching for happiness.
This is painfully true, specifically the part about 'the unwillingness to admit how much they suck'.' Even the most self-confident men can sometimes understand that they have room for improvement, and this has been taken advantage of. The rising popularity of self-help gurus for men is destroying many men's chance at genuine self improvement in my opinion. Young men are being convinced that their path to success rests in making small quality of life changes that will yield massive results, when it's simply not true. Because of services like YouTube it's easier than ever to reach large audiences of men in despair and sell them banal advice disguised as life changing ideas. So many mediocre men I've encountered are completely immersed in the world of self help, but never actually see their life improve. These gurus will never dare tell their audience that they need to examine themselves or that perhaps there is something wrong with them as a person, they simply want to sell more copies of their terrible books filled with 'tips and tricks' about how you can make yourself happier. The results is a generation that is more narcissistic than ever. Men use social media to have their thoughts and ideas constantly relayed back to them and look to their self-guru idols to ensure them that they're making 'progress' by following their advice.

>>17495574
Very keen. Nearly want to quote your whole post but it speaks for itself. You are right.

>>17486752
The Holy Bible.

>>17495276
But that's likewise for the crimes. So are men liable and renowned for the actions of a few or neither, or are you cherrypicking just because you're insecure and have penis envy?

>>17495574
>men's chance at genuine self improvement in my opinion. Young men are being convinced that their path to success rests in making small quality of life changes that will yield massive results, when it's simply not true. Because of services like YouTube it's easier than ever to reach large audiences of men in despair and sell them banal advice disguised as life changing ideas. So many mediocre men I've encountered are completely immersed in the world of self help, but never actually see their life improve. These gurus will never dare tell their audience that they need to examine themselves or that perhaps there is something wrong with them as a person, they simply want to sell more copies of their terrible books filled with 'tips and tricks' about how yo
it's so interesting how all we do is try to tell men to reject themselves and laud women for breathing and ruining everything they touch. It's getting pretty retarded.

>>17495653
>But that's likewise for the crimes.
13 50

>So are men liable and renowned for the actions of a few or neither
Depends on whether you're an egalitarian dear boy

>>17495641
No they're not. Men are seeking help and advice in a community that is completely failing them.

>>17495666
>it's so interesting how all we do is try to tell men to reject themselves
Who is "we"? If you're talking about what are more or less MRAs, then it's the opposite: "we're" essentially trying to get them to rediscover masculinity. But what that anon's post is pointing out is that the typical and most prominent voices aren't interested in putting out the notion that that inherently involves stoping being a pussy little boy who puts on the cloak of being a victim like women do, in an effort to avoid taking personal responsibility for really challenging problems of personal growth.

>>17486845
>she makes you happier than anyone else ever has and that's what's really importan

stopped reading right here. unholy crinnge, ngmi

>>17495673
>Men are seeking help and advice in a community that is completely failing them.
Which is precisely what his post is getting at. It makes me think you aren't in the headspace to understand that, for you to say "No, he's wrong."
>These gurus will never dare tell their audience that they need to examine themselves or that perhaps there is something wrong with them as a person, they simply want to sell more copies of their terrible books filled with 'tips and tricks' about how you can make yourself happier.
See?

>>17495697
It's a hypothetical, for when or if you finally find a girl who fits that description.

Protip: she's almost certainly not going to be /pol/'s model tradwife, and may in fact be far from it. But, again, you won't care if it turns out she has other qualities and characteristics that are somehow well enough tailored to your own emotional needs.

You think you have it all figured out, but you probably don't. Life still has many surprises in store. But if you don't drop the excessive misogyny, you may never get the chance to find out.

why do people post have sex without posting contact info?

>>17486845
Vile harlot I shall give you a taste of my shoe!

>>17495706
>It makes me think
clearly not.

>it's the lack of honest self-reflection, the unwillingness to admit how much they suck, that is holding back so many men these days from reaching for happiness.
This is clearly an indictment of individual men , not of a society failing them. Don't even pretend with me.

>>17495743
>Don't even pretend with me.
I think you're confusing me, which you just quoted here, for someone else, who I am praising. You need to improve your reading comprehension if so.
>This is clearly an indictment of individual men
Which I made.
>a society failing them
Which he made.

Again, my philosophy is: stop being a faggot little pussy bitch who blames anything and anyone else under the sun for him not being respected and loved as a man, when he's put little to no effort into becoming one. Yeah, the transition from boyhood to manhood wasn't handed to you on a silver platter---you and the majority of others of recent generations! Big woop. Take some responsibility.

>>17495689
>Who is "we"?
you clearly knew what i referred to. You clearly knew i wasn't referring to MRA's. You're asking that question because you want to correct me, because you're a psuedo-intellectual with low self esteem.

You're welcome.

>>17495778
>you clearly knew what i referred to
I really don't. At this point I think you're just a gassed up midwit incel looking for stuff to punch. Carry on then.

Once there was a time when the concept of separate genders or sexes never existed. Humanity was once little more than a single cell at one point. As life evolved, it became more complex. This led to a need for specialization of two sexes, but this was all made by human beings seeking to make sense of the world. We can evolve our thinking as we gain more information and understanding. Women and men are not that different, its in our heads and culture that embeds us with certain attitudes about gender or sexual essentialism. The drive for sex and mating is very strong among man and woman, thus we maintain a symbiotic unified relationship as human beings rather than separate.

>>17495776
>I think you're confusing me, which you just quoted here, for someone else, who I am praising.
I'm not confusing you, who you are in the conversation is irrelevant on 4chan that's the point, only the idea matters, it's the topic of the discussion.

One post pointed out that men are vain and not accepting criticism. Another agreed and then said gurus take advantage of their weakness, because mediocre men will take a guru over the painful self reflection.

That is less true than the fact that the men are shunted into this pointless faggy bullshit, because they have no community, or infrastructure to find otherwise. And even in a drought of actionable help, they're still seeking water.

The men clearly seek out the wisdom, they are not at fault for being shackled inside a mediocre life if they're trying to leave it. It's not a case of the men being the problem, or the men and the communities they're in being the problem, it's the communities, or possibly the lack of them.

>Don't even pretend with me.
is an idiom, it means you're full of shit,
not that you're samefagging.
I'd tell you to improve your reading comprehension, but then i'd sound like a limp wristed fag being passive aggressive.

>>17495789
It's what you're talking about, men need to be seriously assessed and criticised to grow you argued. It just happened right in that last post. DO you feel like you are getting something valuable here? I promise you i can see more into your character than some vapid half sober chick you hit on in a bar.

The original post is about how men need women to check their narcissism I don't think that's true. And I'm positing that, in practice, you don't think that's true for yourself either.

>>17495816
>men are shunted into this pointless faggy bullshit, because they have no community, or infrastructure to find otherwise. And even in a drought of actionable help, they're still seeking water.
>The men clearly seek out the wisdom, they are not at fault for being shackled inside a mediocre life if they're trying to leave it. It's not a case of the men being the problem, or the men and the communities they're in being the problem, it's the communities, or possibly the lack of them.
this was all you really needed to post instead of starting an argument

>>17486752
"Manipulated man" by Esther Vilar

>>17495825
>men need to be seriously assessed and criticised to grow you argued
yes
>men need women to check their narcissism
yes
>you don't think that's true for yourself either
I do, actually, in fact

>>17495828
>No they're not. Men are seeking help and advice in a community that is completely failing them.
this was my statement.
> It makes me think you aren't
you deliberately attempted to make it personal and condescending.
>"It makes me think"
>clearly not.
This is a returning of the condescension.
>You need to improve your reading comprehension if so.
another return, this time by you.
>this was all you really needed to post instead of starting an argument
This is you being a little bitch and pretending like you didn't do anything.

>>17495833
then you're welcome. As i said before.

>>17495867
?
>this was my statement
Yes. "No they're not" is the accused needless argument starter.

>>17495816
>The men clearly seek out the wisdom, they are not at fault for being shackled inside a mediocre life if they're trying to leave it. It's not a case of the men being the problem, or the men and the communities they're in being the problem, it's the communities, or possibly the lack of them.
I'm not quite sure what this means. The communities are made up of these mediocre men, and these communities that aren't helpful are a byproduct of men who are mediocre seeking wisdom that doesn't involve any major life changes. I think the average person can discern what is and what isn't helpful for themselves. Perhaps I misunderstood your point?

>>17495885
>The communities are made up of these mediocre men, and these communities that aren't helpful are a byproduct of men who are mediocre seeking wisdom that doesn't involve any major life changes.
Adding onto you, mediocre men are unwilling to listen to certain inconvenient truths, as this other poster has been demonstrating. These communities will turn into hugbox echo-chambers where nothing truly "life-changing" as you say will be stated and circulated and implemented---because the root of the problem is very deep, very difficult to extract, and it turns out most guys apparently are too fragile and don's want to go anywhere near it, so they just focus on superficial matters of little efficacy.

>>17495873
>>>stoping being a pussy little boy who puts on the cloak of being a victim like women do, in an effort to avoid taking personal responsibility for really challenging problems of personal growth.
An assertion of yours.
> You're asking that question because you want to correct me, because you're a psuedo-intellectual with low self esteem.
that assertion being applied in practice, and a "you're welcome", since that assertion at the top implies this criticism should be seen as a gift or as help
>At this point I think you're just a gassed up midwit incel looking for stuff to punch
a failure to apply that assertion yourself.
>you don't think that's true for yourself
an assessment made in light of that failure
>I do, actually, in fact
A denial and reaffirmation that you are not incorrect or a hypocrite
>then you're welcome. As i said before.
A statement willing to ignore that failure as a minor mistake, and allow you
to still attempt to apply your own assertion.

>>17493453
Women simply don't have the power to do as much harm (or to achieve anything of note). If you somehow gave women the power of men but kept their character you'd see some real shit.

>>17495885
>The communities are made up of these mediocre men, and these communities that aren't helpful are a byproduct of men who are mediocre seeking wisdom that doesn't involve any major life changes
clearly you're being silly. Saying that mediocre men ARE the community, and ignoring that it's a social infrastructure which is different from detached individuals is is very incorrect. I don't know if i really want to even get into this if you're going to make such a pointless argument. Townships, clubs, organizations, institutions, families, churches, these are communities, Timmy NoDick is just a confused guy who started reading Jordan Peterson because he can't get a supportive figure advising him on how to do better anywhere else. Certainly not from the women he hits on, which is what the whole discussion started from.

The difference here is significant. It determines how you solve the problem of the mediocre man. One view posits, that to solve the mediocre man, you should inspire people to criticise him and lampoon him MUCH more. The other posits that to solve the problem you need to give them encouragement, and camaraderie on top of the criticisms that are currently being laid at their feet.

>>17495901
>Adding onto you,
because you're a mediocre man

>>17495913
>a failure to apply that assertion yourself
Because I'm neither gassed up, nor a midwit, nor an incel.

This thread is about avoiding misogyny. My suggestion is to stop blaming women for your (a universal "you", not aimed specifically at you) problems with them. Yes, they may be judging you harshly, but if you look at yourself in the mirror, you may see how much of a point they have.
If you aren't so far gone yet, and you still want to be loved, you still have a chance:
>admit to your flaws
>and then begin addressing them, no holding back
Most incels are too egotistical and too lazy to do this, so they take the easy way out, which is not lifting a finger, burrowing themselves in women hate ideologies, and declaring that women are worthless scum.

Unlike them, I came to the conclusion I am not good enough to be loved yet, need to start working on myself, and refuse to point fingers at women (or even "society", for that matter) for my problems. I say what I say because it's the truth as far as I can tell, and it will be the road to my happiness. I put it out there so others hopefully don't fall for the misogyny trap and ruin their own chances; but if they don't heed it, that's another thing that's on them.

So yes, you do have it wrong. You want men to keep making excuses for themselves. How exactly this is supposed to actually help them, I don't know. Maybe you've given up on "help" in the sense of a tie to the hope of one day being desirable to women. It seems to me like you're just peddling cope. This "community" you're advocating for isn't coming any time soon, and when or if it does, as >>17495885 explains, it's not going to be as productive as you imagine it would.

I think I've made myself as clear as I can.

>>17495968
I must admit i am personally unimpressed with you.
>a failure to apply that assertion yourself
>Because I'm neither gassed up, nor a midwit, nor an incel.
that's not a good justification at all, even under normal circumstances,
but it's literally going against your argument here.
> I came to the conclusion I am not good enough to be loved yet, need to start working on myself,
You literally just said that this reasoning doesn't apply to you because you don't think you're a midwit or an incel.
>So yes, you do have it wrong. You want men to keep making excuses for themselves.
This is a lashing out and a cope just to feel like you personally have a point.

>This "community" you're advocating for isn't coming any time soon, and when or if it does, as >>17495885 explains, it's not going to be as productive as you imagine it would.
You just sound like some edgy teenager saying this. Saying to do community service and go to church and offer advice and make male spaces that are approachable, is not an impossible feat at all. You're really just some fatalistic cynic or maybe simp. It sounds like the only tool in your box is just tearing things down or criticizing them, or doubting them, and at one point in the 20th century, that had a use. It's over applied now. We need to actually build things for others, that are remarkable and inspire them, and not spend all our time trying to humble them. And i resent this assertion, 1 because it's a lazy answer and making things worse, and 2 because you're a hypocrite and applying it to everyone but yourself.

>>17486752

men and women both fucking suck in their own ways... why is this so hard to figure out? i admit i'm a man and i also fall for this perception of hating the other sex sometimes, but yeah sure men are fucking pathetic too... but women fucking suck too... if you want to get into an overintellectualized debate on who sucks more, it would be an endless idiotic debate anyways, because humans are wired to think in unilevel, unidimensional ways with a host of biases and false rationalizations... so just stop wasting your time debating this shit thinking you're correct... fucking retards...

>>17493453
The best and worst of men exist only because some woman found those men attractive at some point or were too weak to fend them off and thus babby is borned.

>>17495945
>Women simply don't have the power to do as much harm (or to achieve anything of note).
This is why women are worse than men.

t. woman

>>17487272
Fuck you write like a faggot

I don't think anybody thinks women are inferior at this point.
They just think they should stfu, stop protesting and stop voting.

>>17496745
>I don't think anybody thinks women are inferior at this point.
I do. Women are like bees, needed and the world would not exist without them, but they're still inferior to man having a much close connection to their primal side, which is why virtue is impossible to them and why they should never be allowed any rights.

>>17486752
I don’t think you should get mad at women. They are like dogs or children

>>17496935
bees are actually Christian and always virtuous

I can relate to most of the replies here about women being shallow and boring, in my experience dating women while I lived in The States, as well as a few encounters in England, and France. But the frequencies with which I encounter these one-dimensional women in my home country, Denmark, is remarkably lower. I think it is safe to say, in a broad sense: that women in the former examples are products of deeply alienating societies. As a side note - my encounters with men in these countries were also quite disappointing, though we are discussing women here.

Generally, I find the level of abstraction of the self and reflections on life significantly higher in my home country, even in people without any formal education. Women here are truly independent and self-sufficient, and I find it extremely attractive, whereas, on the other hand, women abroad only seem interested in the image of independence, when in reality, they're just some thot.

Whenever I'm abroad I fall into these spouts of loneliness, where suddenly I can relate much more to you fags here on various 4chan boards. When I'm home, though, I remember that all you fuckers are just a bunch of incels, and I have a good life, in a good place, and browsing here becomes less frequent.

I bet you can find interesting ppl wherever you live, but it's your responsibility to go out and find them.

>>17486752
Having sex would be more effective, I imagine

>>17495642
The Bible unironically has some great redpills on women.

>Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

>>17493577

all you could want and more anon

>>17486752
You don't read.

>>17497357
Having sex with women is literally what made me sexist. It showed me the disgusting immoral side to them that they hide outside of the bedroom

>>17486848
Same here, got even worse when I became I got good at getting women.
As a unhappy incel, I greatly respected women.

>>17497913
When I was a blue pulled virgin I liked girls a lot. Getting experience made me never want to interact with them again honestly. If the dynamic wasn’t how it was. Today I’d probably still like them, but it’s just not enjoyable in the modern world imo

>>17496178
>because humans are wired to think in unilevel, unidimensional ways with a host of biases and false rationalizations
>now listen to me who allegedly came to my conclusions the same way as described above, you fucking retards...

>>17486845
This is a beautiful post and inspired me to try and talk to women more. I made an account on some dating website and messaged a few girls already. Wish me luck, bro (or sis)

>>17486845
The fact that no woman would ever want to make me feel this way is why I don't like them

>>17487414
>>17487496
>>17488070
>CAGE GOOD, CAGE REDPILLED. I WANNA LIVE IN CAGE LIKE CATTLE YES.

>>17498333
I deserve to live in a cage and be whipped

>>17486848
Same here

>>17496961
sweet baby jesus

>>17486781
how is he a misogynist? are you insane

>>17486845
Enough cringe for the day in one post.

>>17486845
No she will leave anyway happy or not, but as long as there is sex i'm in

>>17486752
Untruths and falsehoods. Only the reading of untruths and falsehoods can possibly dupe you into not being a misogynist.

>>17486845
The thing is, you're full of bullshit for several reasons:

1) Plenty of us have tried, we have experience of trying to win people over and it usually ends one of two ways. Either we get friendzoned, or we get taken for a ride by some unhinged borderline headcase, only to realize months, years after the breakup that every facet of their persona was a carefully constructed lie to manipulate us.
Our real world experience only reinforces what MGTOW and blackpill proponents say.

2) We're in a catch 22. You tell us to "have sex" to get out of this headspace while at the same time pushing a narrative that we are such repulsive, bottom of the barrel losers that in your heart of hearts you wouldn't wish sex with us on any decent human, any human who could actually turn us around and challenge our beliefs. It's essentially the thot's equivalent of a boomer telling you to "get a job", when everywhere hiring wants you to have experience, but if you don't have experience to begin with, you can't get hired, and if you can't get hired, you can't build experience.

So kindly shut up and go fuck yourself.

ITT

>>17486873
He might be seething but he is right
>>17486845
You seriously need to stop giving advice for things you do not understand, you are only making more people hate you.

>>17498917
>2) We're in a catch 22. You tell us to "have sex" to get out of this headspace while at the same time pushing a narrative that we are such repulsive, bottom of the barrel losers that in your heart of hearts you wouldn't wish sex with us on any decent human, any human who could actually turn us around and challenge our beliefs
This is you pathetic losers' problems. You're sitting there wishing for a savior who is NEVER coming, but instead of looking inward for that and begin the very difficult, painful process of GROWING as a PERSON who people actually want to cherish, respect, and love (which is more possible than you lead yourselves to believe), you give up, declare yourself unfixable, may even claim here's nothing wrong with you at all, and fall into needles bitterness which only seals your perpetual future of unhappiness.

>>17493453
I generally agree with a notion that woman tolerate more in men then men do in woman, but these mediocre men are not those who are in power. The ones who cause misery are also the ones who advance civilzations

>>17486752
Just read good female authors and you will start respecting women more. Woolf is probably the best of them all.

>>17499040
*there's nothing wrong with you at all
*needless bitterness

>>17496190
Good take

>>17499040
How to get out of this mindset? How to grow?
>declare yourself unfixable
Currently here

When you realize women just weaponize their own inferiority complex their erratic behavior makes alot more sense.

>>17497339
>But the frequencies with which I encounter these one-dimensional women in my home country, Denmark, is remarkably lower. I think it is safe to say, in a broad sense: that women in the former examples are products of deeply alienating societies.
This is the very unfortunate concussion I am coming to as well.
All of the most positive female relationships I have had with Women come from online interactions with Non-American Women.

There is just something particularly mentally ill that all Americans, Men or Women, seem to have. I do not know what to do about it outside of some vague plan to eventually leave the country however.

Have any of the unironic misogynists in this thread ever had a good female friend? I think once you've had a meaningful non-romantic relationship with a woman all of these crazy notions about women will appear very silly to you.

Reading makes you hate women more.

>>17499040
Why do women TALK like THIS?

>>17499088
Some of my best friends are women that are smarter than everyone in this thread. I still don't take the average woman seriously. They're basically children.

>>17499088
Why would you be friends with a woman? The best woman friend is an inferior male friend. If you get along that well with a woman you should just stop being gay and marry her or cut her off if she fucks other men.

>>17499094
They love to pretend to be moral superiors while aspiring to an existence that's hardly better than an animals.

>>17499100
The average men are not?

>>17499088
I have, but she very commonly confirms a lot of the stereotypes unfortunately. I will always be there for her, but I can't stop her from making the same fucking stupid decisions again and again and watching her suffer for it (Hey guys I am in California getting blackout drunk again XD! Don't worry guys! This lesbian relationship will work out! Totally will not implode like the last 3!)

And of course three weeks later she is crying about how she was used again. It is just painful, frankly.

>>17499117
Oh they definitely are, but women (and their attendant simps) love to assume the status of some protected class that can do no wrong. We have to explicitly dispel such illusions.

>>17499040
>Growth
>Respectability
>Likability
These are all relative. The game is all about appearing the most desirable to women which necessarily means that some men are seen by women as undesirable. Women have a certain % of men they will always reject no matter how much personal development the less desirable men have gone through. The dating market behaves exactly like the job market. Men are employees and women employers and when a woman has too many men to deal with she starts imposing higher standards to thin out the herd. No amount of male personal growth will change female selectivity.

>>17499088
Of course not
The reason I don't like women isn't some inherent conviction or philosophical stance, it's just that they don't like me either

I've shown this to female friends and my own sister and they all said it was true lmao.

Also, no man can ever talk as much shit about women than an actual woman. It's a sight to behold.

>>17499117
potential is what matters, the potential

>>17499148
fuck off cringe retard

How do I get over my inferiority complex about being female?

>>17499100
I think most people are basically children.

>>17499110
Why is the best woman friend an inferior male friend? The only friend I have with whom I share literary interests is a woman, so she's de facto a more interesting person to talk to than my male friends. Aside from that, female friends can provide you with unique perspectives. My best friend is a woman (family friend, we grew up together) and she often gives me wildly beneficial relationship advice. She's also hooked me up with her girl friends and gotten me laid which is dope. It's also just nice to hang out with a girl sometimes man.

>>17499148
>Also, no man can ever talk as much shit about women than an actual woman. It's a sight to behold.
Because even Misogynists are usually subconsciously pulling their punches; Other Women have no reason to do so.

>>17499122
I've seen so many male friends blunder through life in a similar fashion.

>>17499148
>niggers and dogs
>not warriors

>>17499071
>How to get out of this mindset? How to grow?
You need to look at yourself in the mirror, from the perspective of someone else. You may be inclined to sympathize with yourself, make excuses, but you need to be stern in your judgment and self-assessment.

You have to honestly criticize yourself. You need to think about what is wrong with you, what things about you would *rightfully* turn others off. Are you still living at family's houses? Do you have no job or a terrible job? Do you have your own car? Are you physically fit? Are you spiteful and needy? Are you insecure and a Debbie Downer? Are you hygienic? Do you wear nice clothes? Are you selfish and self-absorbed? The list goes on and on.

Now you may not unjustifiably say that you don't really know the standards; there's so much to keep track of, and you hardly have a clue how other people think since you don't think that way at all; and even if you did research, there's so many traps and bad advice out there to steer you wrong. That's all fair. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. You need to remember exactly what giving up amounts to here: having few and unenthusiastic friends; having no girlfriend or women in your life; growing older and older almost entirely alone. Do you want that? What are you willing to do to avoid that fate? But if it's not that horrible to you, you can honestly say, then hey, maybe that life isn't for you. Content yourself with 4chan, anime, video games, and the shut-in life.

You need to be struck with the fear that what you have right now will be all you'll ever have. You have to realize it's not what you want at all. You have to decide that you're willing to do just about whatever it takes to change your life for the better. The very first step is figuring out where you're going wrong---the bare naked truth of it: if you can't do that, you're likely doomed to fail.

Then you get to work. You look for better sources of income. You stop wasting your time on pointless bullshit. You commit to hygeine. You save up money for a place, a car, clothes, gym membership, whatever you're missing; if you're ugly, maybe even plastic surgery. Over time, you'll start to see improvement, and actually feel your self-confidence and self-satisfaction grow. You won't be (rightfully) afraid to approach people because what reasons now will they have to reject you? And if they do, you move on to the next one, and keep on growing.

You have to have some faith and some hope. If you don't, you'll peter out or never get off the ground at all. You're not unfixable; you just haven't thought hard enough.

>>17499162
I do not think this thread can help you with that; Honestly find some 90 year old (Men or Women, you want to avoid advice from anyone who grew up in the 1960s or older) successful matriarch and she could probably impart valuable advice.

>>17499162
Stop listening to kikes and feminists telling you that a woman being feminine is a bad thing. No real man will ever hate a woman for acting according to her nature.

>>17499198
Nature is a demonic force that rips souls out of peaceful nothingness to come here and dominate each other. It created hate. It deserves hate.

>>17499132
>which necessarily means that some men are seen by women as undesirable
Yeah, the losers who give up and don't to aspire to be as desirable as Chad, because it's too much work.
>Women have a certain % of men they will always reject
According to your bullshit, if the market was full of Chads, there'd still be chads who don't get laid. The market is nowhere near full of chads. The average man is significantly worse than chad yet sees nothing wrong with that.

>>17499192
>You need to look at yourself in the mirror, from the perspective of someone else.
I'm gonna do a higher dose of LSD to achieve this
Already doing the self critique thing a lot, hence why I arrived at the conclusion of being inherently broken
It's nice how you phrased it "few and unenthusiastic friends" and "almost entirely alone"
No need to sugar coat it. It is quite horrible and feel bad about it every single day

Thank you for the advice.
The main issue I see here is what you are describing are material things, which aren't the problem.
I do have a car, I do try to dress nice, I do shower every day. That's not the problem, the problem is my personality and I don't know how to change it

>>17499220
If all men became chad, the bar for what is considered adequate would float up the same as before. Women are the ones who move this bar and they move it to a level the consider convenient for themselves. They want men racing to the bottom for them.

>>17499217
blablah yes i'll wipe my ass with your Demiurge pamphlet, thanks

>>17499240
If all men became chad we wouldn't be sitting at a round table talking about "what women wanted", they'd be happy we even acknowledge their existence.

You guys have the game all fucked up so it's no wonder you suck with women.

>>17499167
what did he mean by this

>>17499071
Do you want to "grow"? There is something toxic about only being able to be happy if you jump through enough of society's hoops. Social success is not fucking nirvana (not even nirvana is nirvana lmao) or some shit, wears off like everything else.

If mere existence is not enough, then nothing else ever will be.

>>17499241

>>17499255
We would because the new adequate wouldnt be chad it would be thad. Chads become virgins and only thad would slay puss.

>>17499257
I think some form of social life or feeling of belonging is a basic human need, so I would be willing to jump through some hoops to achieve that

>>17499289
The fact you say that means you don't know how chads operate.

Hint: they don't orbit around women, physically or mentally

>>17499300
So Chads would become homosexual?

>>17499304
strong logic

>>17499240
>If all men became chad, the bar for what is considered adequate would float up the same as before
This is debateable but I still disagree. I think there's a baseline standard females have biologically ingrained, that if met would make the vast majority more than happy to "settle".

The problem is that modern men by and large fail to meet even that. They're not muscular, not financially and spiritually independent, not driven and motivated to succeed, not very dependable, not enjoyable and interesting to be around. From the point of view of a woman, the modern man has little to offer that she can't find in herself or other women; those effeminate men don't hold a candle to a Chad.

But the cold hard truth of the modern man being terribly unappealing and inadequate is too much to bear for the delusional, entitled generations of late. They want all the happiness with none of the effort. They don't want to take responsibility, preferring instead to be coddled. They want Easy mode. And this loser mentality, rightfully, is one of the things women despise the most. Such men are weak, and weak men are unattractive. If you can't get over your loser mentality, you deserve neither respect, nor love, nor happiness, from both women and men alike.

>>17499327
it's not exactly a secret that men are now useless fags and women are unpleasant sluts. One might even say this has been an intentional campaign against gender roles

>>17499354
It is.

>>17486752
yuri novel

>>17499327
There is no baseline except for maybe muscular strength. Every other quality is relative. A woman evaluates a potential male partner against other his competing males and chooses the one who offers the most. Because men are naturally desperate for sex and female validation at all times, they accept this situation even if she offers very little in return.

>>17486845
Simp the post

>>17499231
>The main issue I see here is what you are describing are material things, which aren't the problem.
> the problem is my personality and I don't know how to change it
I understand that. If I knew you better, I'd do you the solid and tell you outright why others may not like your personality; but I don't, so I can't.

I find personality typology psychology, like the Enneagram and MBTI (and honestly even astrology), to be useful for uncovering all aspects of one's personality---the stuff that stays hidden, that weighs you down and undermines and sabotages you. Keep looking; take your time if you need to.

Compare yourself to people you like (easy to do with fictional characters) and see why you aren't as desirable. I'm not saying copy them---I'm saying just be cognizant of how much of your current personality is really just borne from unaddressed mental illness and unhealthiness; not everything that's vicious about you right now is an inherent personality trait.

But deducing which is underdeveloped/immature, which is sickness, and which is the "real" you is a long, difficult, but ultimately fruitful journey you need to undertake.

>>17499257
>There is something toxic about only being able to be happy if you jump through enough of society's hoops.
It sounds like you have some hang-up with "society" that makes you feel their standards are invalid and shouldn't apply to you.

>>17499354
It is and that's a good thing.

>>17499406
current society is literally antihuman so his intuition isnt wrong

>>17499419
Why?

>>17499354
>it's not exactly a secret that men are now useless fags
Please tell that to every guy who came into this thread to reiterate their bitterness, because they are extremely under the impression that it's righteous, and that women are the ones who are asking too much of them.

>>17499440
It's just how people are. Unpleasant sluts feel the same way towards men while seeing nothing wrong with themselves.

>>17499439
Human nature is disgusting, violent, competitive and animalistic and it should be denied at every opportunity.

>>17499294
I don't think it's a basic human need. It's supposed to be a fun game, not a life or death thing. If it's not fun, why make such a big deal of it? Or is it fun to you?

How do you know you are lonely? Do you often find yourself craving the company of others, or is it that you feel ashamed you aren't living up to a standard? Perhaps both? If both, then which one comes at you stronger and more often? If shame at not living up to a standard is a primary driver, that will have to go or you will never be happy.

>>17499391
Thanks, I think I've sort of been doing that subconsciously for a bit, trying to figure out "what my problem is," or going back and trying to find some specific point where things went wrong for me
But I'll try and go about it more constructive and purposeful. Going to make a list

>>17499457
Ok, it's a need I have personally. Being alone feels terrible and I'm willing to jump through hoops to stop feeling terrible.
Really don't see a reality where I'm better off alone

>>17499457
It's most definitely a basic human need, it's just that it's not normal to be so easily isolated from society as it is now. Humans came from close knit tribes where isolation would be a life or death thing.

>>17499406
I don't even know what I think of society, but I do think taking it too seriously can really fuck up people for no good reason. There's too much animal-pecking-order gamesmanship going on to attach special meaning to the comings and goings of society.

>>17494375
Genuinely, the most sensible response I've gotten thus far in this thread. Thanks.

Don’t

>>17499440
Honestly I think even these guys know it on some level.

Also I was being a bit overly rude calling men useless and women unpleasant. Yeah there are trends towards those things but your average man or woman is just a normal person really.

You ever thought about if you were a woman why all you would want to be with your man self?

>>17486845
>stops caring about things while in love
>won't be happy without her because you depend on her
Sounds pretty bad. Why would I want a woman to hijack my life? Did you never really care about things to begin with or did you sacrifice it all just to get laid?

>>17499479
You say being alone feels terrible. Shouldn't you already be automatically trying to jump through all the hoops constantly if that's the main thing you feel, pedal to the metal? I suspect there's other stuff you value that makes the hoop jumping not seem worth it. That makes you apply the brakes.

>>17499539
I'm actually high value so I'd date me.

>>17499539
Sure have, when I want to make myself unhappy one of the strategies I have is to ask what I would even have to offer in a relationship

>>17499549
It's wanting to be accepted for yourself rather than conforming to others who are different from you in ways you do not like. The correct solution there is generally searching for likeminded people.

>>17499539
That wouldn't be very revelatory, beyond serving as a self-esteem check.

>>17499549
I don't know what the hoops are and how to jump through them, which is why I asked in my post
Additionally (don't care if I sound like a pussy) social failure and rejection is painful so yes I'm afraid of jumping wrong so to speak

>>17499539
Women are weak so what they want doesn't matter.

>>17499569
>That wouldn't be very revelatory
Then try posing the negative: why you *wouldn't* want to be with your man self.
>beyond serving as a self-esteem check
Maybe that's what everyone needs. They are too self-important and haven't actually thought about their own worth and value as much as they should have.

>>17499582
>what they want doesn't matter
keep telling yourself that, see where / how far it gets you

>>17499606
Most people here are not too explicitly self-important, they are too self-pitying and too low self esteem. Putting people in that state down doesn't motivate them to get better, it makes them retreat further into their negativity and self-hatred.

>>17499571
More afraid of jumping wrong than of being alone? Then you are already acting in alignment with your values. Why beat yourself up about that?

>>17499220
>because it's too much work
And do you think this is a good thing? That men are expected to work constantly to justify a woman's decision to be in a relationship with them? What effort do women put in? And no, "looking nice" doesn't count. As women say they do the make-up for themselves, not to appease men. And there are plenty of skanks with no personal hygiene who are able to pull guys just by acting coy.
>According to your bullshit, if the market was full of Chads, there'd still be chads who don't get laid.
That anon wasn't wrong, this would be the case. It already is the case that women only see the top 20% of men as above average (ie above a 5/10), and see actual average guys as a 1 or a 2 out of 10.
>The average man is significantly worse than chad yet sees nothing wrong with that.
The average woman is significantly worse than stacey and still expects to be able to date chad, just because a couple chads took the opportunity to bone her when she put out.

>>17499629
Because it's making me very unhappy?
I don't understand why you want me to be alone so bad, yes I'm afraid of failure which is why I asked for advice, to minimize the risk. I'm done replying I have to go read

>>17499148
Checks out.

>>17499543
>Did you never really care about things to begin with or did you sacrifice it all just to get laid?
My girl had tattoos (I don't), has piercings (I don't), smokes weed (I don't), keeps her hair short, is generally left-leaning as far as she sees, is a college dropout, has had multiple sex partners, is queer ('m not), and said she doesn't want to be a wife nor have children. All of those are redflags according to /pol/.

But, she is intellectually curious, isn't stupid, isn't an ideologue and really is more rational than one would expect, is calm and soothing, is very generous and considerate, is clean and conscious of her health and well-being, isn't mentally ill (as far as I've concluded), is beautiful and really just about my type; despite all her "flaws", she made me very happy when I was around her, more than I realized.

But I took it for granted because I was ruled by the notion that she was worth less because she has so many "redflags", and that her wants and needs matter less than my own; I acted selfishly while giving too little in return, and she left. I didn't realize how badly I wanted her to stay with me until she was gone. She's not special according to /pol/'s and /r9k/'s checklist, but nobody else brought me as much enjoyment as she did, and I fear no one else will. I'm not very easy to please.

A woman isn't going to "hijack" your life if you end up liking her. You're going to want her to be in it more than you think right now. It's an addictive feeling, the happiness she can bring you. Mine isn't crazy really at all so I didn't have to deal with BPD bullshit; results may vary. The sex and physical intimacy is very important but it's not all there is to it. But you'll never find out if you don't try. If you're hetero-sexual, you have absolutely no reason not to try.

>>17499793
>My girl had tattoos (I don't), has piercings (I don't), smokes weed (I don't), keeps her hair short, is generally left-leaning as far as she sees, is a college dropout, has had multiple sex partners, is queer ('m not), and said she doesn't want to be a wife nor have children
Yikes

>>17499793

Just wanted to say, I appreciate the thoughtful post. As long as there are enough posters like you here, /lit/ will not become /pol/-lite.

>>17486845
>using "have sex" during onlyfans age
BAKA

>>17499649
>And do you think this is a good thing? That men are expected to work constantly to justify a woman's decision to be in a relationship with them?
I think you're a pussy if you bitch about relationships being this way when 's the exact same deal with your economic financial security. Life isn't fair, but your skin is in the game and you need to deal with that. But I suspect little bitches are going to yet again scurry to sexual socialism and communism where they can get their free state-mandated gfs.
>What effort do women put in?
Who gives a shit? Are you a faggot?
Become a real man and your pool of women expands so much wider, to where you can pick one who isn't abysmally selfish and low quality.
You're not going to find one who's perfect right out the gate, but like a fixer house, it's you as the man's job to take what you're given and make the most of it.
>And there are plenty of skanks with no personal hygiene who are able to pull guys just by acting coy.
You're not a woman so stop trying to import their standards for conduct into masculinity.

>>17499793
The problem is that these things will come to matter if things get more serious. Good luck raising healthy children with a "queer" mother.

>>17499701
I'll reply anyway. I don't want you to be alone, but I have a hunch you want socializing to be something it's not: a tool for you to get happiness. There's some of that to be sure, but it's not all there is to it. Other people are not simply a means to an end (to be happy in this case). Associating with others is painful too. They can be uninterested in you, reject you, actively dislike you, not appreciate you as much as you appreciate them, or just fail to understand you.

Ultimately, you have to decide if you prefer the pain of becoming involved with others to the pain of being alone, but there's no painless path here. You have to keep that in mind. You can't actually minimize risk, this is like getting into a sport: it's gonna be rough going at first, possibly for a while too.

>>17499793
holy shit I hope this is bait, you are pathetic

>>17499908
If she stuck with her claim she wouldn't become a mother at all though

>>17499832
Thanks.

>>17499918
Oh missed that part. I guess a girl like that is good for a fling but unless you want to be a genetic dead end it seems stupid to let it gestate into something you don't have the heart to end yourself.

>>17499928
Why do you care about reproducing, serious question?

>>17499937
because he is an evil narcissist

>>17499908
You don't know the future and how much things you thought were settled and final can change. It's important not to get too arrogant and keep an open mind and active investment into getting the future, not necessarily that you think you want right now, but will fulfill you anyway in the long term.

>>17499937
Not him but why is it your business to know? God I hate you Americans; You are such scum, I hope China destroys you and all other Anglo nations.

>>17499937
May as well ask why people care about eating food or having friends

>>17499960
It doesn't really follow, sorry.

>>17499960
Not the same thing at all

>>17499937
One, as someone who's not clinically retarded I believe you have a social responsibility to reproduce. Shirking this responsibility sort of ties in with my second point, namely that having and raising children is necessary to fully mature as an individual. Until you have children you're essentially just an overgrown child yourself. Nobody who doesn't at least have a desire to have children and be a father/mother should be taken seriously and they certainly shouldn't have any input on anything worthwhile.

>>17499972
eating, having friends, reproducing are all very strong natural impulses the vast majority of humans have

>>17499996
They're very different impulses. And people have impulse to fuck, not reproduce, that's more complex than an instinct. It's pretty easy to fulfill the fucking impulse without causing a baby

>>17500004
I can tell you have never talked to a 30 year old woman.

>>17499951
Nothing is certain but you shouldn't be surprised if things turn out how anyone looking from the outside would expect. I guess its a gamble but ultimately you're letting feels get in the way of reals.

>>17499994
Who or what saddles us with social responsibility and to what end exactly do we need to endlessly perpetuate society?

>>17500004
No it's not just sex, it's having offspring and raising them

>>17500009
More complex and socially influenced than an instinct. Also I imagine you aren't a woman.

>>17500024
I think that's more cultural than a basic need like eating food

>>17500024
It doesn't make sense to have an instinct so abstract. Parental instincts kick in after the kid is already there.

>>17500040
Have you really never seen a woman look at a baby and talk about how she wants one, wants to get pregnant and raise a child?

>>17500072
He's also seen someone look at a sports car and say how they want one, want to get rich and drive a sports car
That's not a basic need

There is no point arguing with him. Americans are so mentally ill that even reproduction is something that needs to be morally justified to him.

The only thing you should do is silence him, like all Americans.

>>17500076
Yeah there is no reason an animal would have an instinct to reproduce, it's just like a sports car.

>>17500085
I don't think reproduction is immoral though, I just don't think it's morally compelled.

>>17499793
Is she a man?

>>17500086
Animals have the instinct to fuck, and they have the instinct to care and protect for their young. That's all that's needed in nature.

>>17486752
It's ok be misogynist

>>17500012
>ultimately you're letting feels get in the way of reals
Your feelings are real. No matter how much you rationalize things, your emotions are going to dictate how excited you are to get out of bed in the morning and how driven you are to be somebody.

At the end of your life you'll be looking back and asking yourself whether it was worth it, whether you made the right decisions, whether you can die without regret. Plenty of men did everything "right" and still ended up feeling like they missed out, because they didn't listen to their heart telling them what they really wanted.

It's easy to say "happiness" doesn't matter and isn't important., or that it's something else than people think. But every waking moment is spent in the present, feeling whatever you do, all the way down until the moment of your demise. You better figure out how you want to spend them and what state you want to inhabit while doing so, because that's what really constitutes a life---for the average person at least, ignoring "accomplishments" and such that will persist after you're dead but won't be much good to you then.

>>17486845
mega gay normalfag post. Some people are just not meant for love partner relationships, at least not happy ones.

>>17500102
We also clearly have an instinct to have children, just having sex forever leaves many people unfulfilled and wanting to get pregnant/impregnate.

>>17500015
>who or what saddles us with social responsibility
I'm not sure what you mean, the answer is contained within the "social" half of the phrase "social responsibility".

>and to what end exactly do we need to endlessly perpetuate society
If you want to fully mature as an individual you need to experience having a family, otherwise youre just stunting yourself. If you want to be 80 and still have no more perspective on life than an 18 year old then be my guest, but don't expect your words to hold anymore weight to anyone who knows what you never even tried to know.

>>17500127
It's not an instinct though, it's a more complex desire that comes from thought and abstraction and capacity for imagination. Animals aren't capable of that. An infertile animal doesn't think "oh man I feel so unhappy, I see the other animals have little babies and look so fulfilled, fuck I wish I had some kids", it just keeps fucking whenever the instincts tell it to.

>>17500127
Ah so it's about fulfillment now
Meaning is a social construct you dip, which is why it so easily changes over time
If you think people expected their children to provide them with "meaning" a couple hundred years ago you are deluding yourself.

>>17500131
If there is only one way to experience life and gain perspective, it can't be that valuable to have in when most gain it anyway.

>>17500076
>That's not a basic need
It's a status symbol. The drive to acquire status symbols is instinctual no matter what form it takes on.

>>17500148
>>17500141
yes it is an instinct, again people get a desire to have children literally just from seeing other people's children, and you are absolutely retarded if you think people didn't always want kids

>>17500131
>If you want to fully mature as an individual you need to experience having a family, otherwise youre just stunting yourself. If you want to be 80 and still have no more perspective on life than an 18 year old then be my guest, but don't expect your words to hold anymore weight to anyone who knows what you never even tried to know.
That has absolutely nothing to do with my question, but what I'm getting here is that you want to make a child for purely narcissistic reasons, like your word having "weight" in society (where, again, I need to ask why we need to keep that society going for all eternity)

>>17500158
Who's saying people don't want to have kids? They want to have nice cars too, that's not what's being called into question here

>>17500158
>people get a desire to have children literally just from seeing other people's children
That's literally how you can tell it's an instinct, are you retarded.

>>17500174
The desire to have kids is an innate impulse

>>17500187
I disagree

>>17500193
no u

>the fact that i feel the need (however innate) to make a child justifies making one

>>17500193
Because you're defective, the vast majority of people want to have kids regardless of culture, and many people who don't have kids become extremely regretful about it.

>>17500163
You're ignoring my larger point to try bring up some hypothesis that was probably in the last book you read. Not having children is peak narcissism. Its a position held by solipsists and sloths who can't conceive of responsibility to anyone or anything except their own immediate happiness. People who feel their opinions on reproduction should be given equal footing as everyone else's despite having no more actual experience with reproduction than a child.

>>17500212
>the vast majority of people want to have kids regardless of culture
That's not true and you know it. Having kids is insanely culturally important in most societies. The reason you can find so many more people now claiming to not want kids is also due to culture.

>>17500212
Well yeah all cultures are interested in self perpetuating. To who's benefit, I could ask
The reason they feel regret is because society makes them feel bad for it

>>17500227
It's insanely culturally important because it's an innate impulse shared by almost anyone, and any culture that doesn't prioritize it will literally go extinct. Even now when many people say they don't want to have kids they end up being 40 and wishing they had.

>>17500224
To me you just seem incredibly self centered, having a child is all about you, how you feel, how your social status will rise and so on. At no point do you consider that it's something you are doing to someone else, not just a fun experience that's happening to you
Again I keep asking and you keep evading: why do we have to perpetuate society? You just tell me I have to make a child so it can pay taxes and I ask you why

>>17500228
>The reason they feel regret is because society makes them feel bad for it
Society doesn't make them feel bad about, society praises childless people now but they still feel something is wrong, which are their instincts telling them they need to change something so that they do reproduce.

You are a narcissist whether you have kids or not.

>>17500253
That only applies to women
Men only care about nutting deep inside a woman, ditching and finding another one to do the same to

>>17500243
That's really not why. People in the past didn't have kids because it made them feel fuzzy inside, this is a modern luxury. Aside from them being a natural consequence of sex, kids were needed largely for labor purposes and the maintenance of their small community. The problem today is that no one needs children anymore in a practical sense. It shows in your belief that the main reason to have children is self-fulfillment.

>>17500245
I couldn't care less if you or your child pays taxes or moves to Antarctica or whatever. Nothing I've said has anything go do with perpetuating society as it is. Your question is out of left field and you're clearly trying to craft some narrative that has nothing to do with what I've said, which is why you have to ignore my point

>>17500279
People have always wanted to have kids, you call meaning socially constructed but we obviously evolved to find things like friendship and having children meaningful. You act like people in 1400 or in hunter-gatherer societies were just emotionless automatons that didn't feel anything towards their kids

>>17500300
If it's my societal duty to make a child that clearly has something to do with society?

>>17500305
Not him but people really only did start having intimate relationships with their children fairly recently
It's like how the concept of childhood is much more recent than you might imagine

>>17500305
They felt things for their kids at least some of the time, but like love in marriage, it was just a nice side-bonus if it happened, not the main reason you did it. Even now not everyone actually loves their kids, and most people have way easier living situations.

>>17500312
The shirking of social duty is evidence of a general immaturity. When you have children you can no longer just care about yourself, you have dependents. A refusal to have children is a sign of a deeper inability to hold responsibility to anything but yourself, aka narcissism. Instead of nitpicking a single sentence out of context you should read my entire post you midwit.

>>17500356
You can have responsibilities to others without having children though. Through relationships you have, jobs you take, or the care of other relatives.

>>17500369
Children can work as babysitters but to equate it with parenthood is silly and wrong.

>>17500356
I think the reason you don't want to answer me is because you don't know
We just all have to keep this thing going on forever, against everyone's best interest, because you feel like it

>>17500399
I did answer you, are you ESL?

>>17500393
What about full-time care for a disabled or dying relative?

>>17500415
If you actually think any of that amounts to an answer you are more deluded than I thought. I will pray for you

>>17499627
Self-pity isn't going to solve any of your problems, and beating yourself up with kid gloves, or not doing so at all, is a form of self-pity.

No matter how much you say encouragement is going to be helpful, you're still advocating for avoiding touching upon the root of the issue and hoping it won't matter, and that it will all work out in the end all the same. It won't.

>>17500431
>ill pretend you didn't answer me so I can get out of this thread where I said a bunch of stupid shit also this about my relationship with God
Your vanity makes sense now.

>>17500449
I didn't say any of that though, I'm just saying telling self-pitying babies they suck only reinforces them. I don't know what the right way to deal with them is but it's definitely not that.

>>17500456
I hope you will be less scatterbrained in your next conversation, God bless

Women, am I right?

>>17500459
You need to realize you can't save everyone. There is no other way. Either they decide to face the truth and grow up, or they won't. And if they don't, your only alternative is to treat them how they want and baby them.

It's social darwinism. Failures and losers will remove themselves from the genepool. Unlike in nature, they still have a chance to do otherwise, but they won't take it. That's on them. No sense trying to save them if they refuse to save themselves.

>>17500421
I dont think any of those things really equate with raising someone from almost nothing into a full human being and helping them discover the world. Its a unique experience and I think its something that's necessary to experience to have any meaningful opinion regarding life or society in general, which we all obviously have by virtue of the fact that we're here arguing.

>>17500483
hadem

>>17500488
>Its a unique experience
>almost all adult humans experience it
I think it can potentially be a meaningful experience but I don't see a reason for it to be the only one that can matter, and I think many parents do not take any advantage of the positive potentials of parenthood at all.

>>17500468
I hope you will be more intelligent in your next conversation instead of saying regrettable things and then running away when you get called out on it.

>>17500488
Again, having a child is all about me me me

>>17500506
>if I keep posting it maybe I'll be right this time!
Kek

>>17500502
I mean unique within the context of a single life that someone can live. Nothing you do will be quite like it. You're absolutely right that most parents are not taking full advantage of being parents, but I think anyone who's aware enough to realize this can be a good parent.

>>17499994
Most societies have had a social role that involved not reproducing, with the people of that role being valuable to the community or considered wise in some way.

>>17500556
Are there not many potential experiences which could be described like that in life, though?

>>17500556
>>if I keep posting it maybe I'll be right this time!
All you are doing is posting 20 times how having a child is a fun and unique experience for you and you will have better opinions and give them more weight in society
Can you see it?

>>17500576
Thats the best point anyone has brought up. I think there's more to it though than just not having kids. These people were often either eunuchs or spent their entire lives in utter abstinence of any sort of vice. Thats hardly what's being proposed here by the antinatalists.

>>17500593
Few of a similar magnitude.

>>17500611
>i keep posting the same thing over and over and you keep replying the same thing over and over
Woah insightful

>>17499088
Yes, I have been friends with a girl online for 11 years and currently friends with another girl for 4 years. I'm still a misogynist and the later girl understand it, she has to deal with her colleagues everyday