Buddhist Thread

[Anonymous No.17479128]

Is Nirvana "none existence" or is there something more to it?

[Anonymous No.17479223]

It is the realization of God.

[Anonymous No.17479225]

>>17479128
Nirvana is the end of craving.

[Anonymous No.17479235]

>>17479225

That is just Liberation. One can manage that without even experiencing bliss.

[Anonymous No.17479265]

>>17479235
liberation translates mukti, dictionary says: >Final beatitude, the delivery of the soul from the body and exemption from further transmigration; the re-absorption of the emancipated spirit into its great primary source

[Anonymous No.17479269]

>>17479128
Please read https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nibbana.html

[Anonymous No.17479305]

>>17479128
soijack wins here

[Anonymous No.17479326]

Yo, here's my common sense take on Buddhism.
The Buddha guy excelled at meditation and uncovered higher states of awareness. He also had a philosophy for achieving contentment and peace of mind. Furthermore, he idolized nothingness as an absolute.

So I agree that you can reach higher states of awareness (radiant, spacious, expansive, blissful), and also find peace and contentment through detachment, but is emptiness an absolute? I would say no, although there is such a thing as null value (when you go unconscious for instance).

[Anonymous No.17479332]

>>17479326
>he idolized nothingness as an absolute.
See >>17479269

[Anonymous No.17479363]

>>17479265
My Sanskrit isn't perfect but the definition you shared seems to combine Mukti(Liberation) and Moksha(Final-Liberation).

>Final beatitude
This happens with Moksha, not Mukti. With liberation there is still much progress to make but one is no longer compelled to be reborn on Earth. There are
planes above Earth but still within Maya(for simplicity's sake, think something like Heaven)

>the delivery of the soul from the body and exemption from further transmigration

This happens sooner than most people think.

>the re-absorption of the emancipated spirit into its great primary source

"re-absorption" is a terrible word to use for this. We are already one with the "great primary source". Realizing this is is Final-Liberation and Nirvana.


Regards, someone on the path

[Urantia philosopher No.17479364]

>>17479128
>Different Buddhist traditions have interpreted the concept in different ways, and the term has had a range of meanings over time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)#Meaning

[Anonymous No.17479416]

How difficult do you think higher states of realization (stream entry, nonreturning, nirvana) have become in our era?
The Buddha taught that stream entry was the only way to be sure you'd get liberated eventually instead of hanging out in samsara forever but it seems almost impossible to even reach that nowadays. Maybe Pure land believers have a point.

[Anonymous No.17479470]

>>17479416
>How difficult do you think higher states of realization (stream entry, nonreturning, nirvana) have become in our era?

Why do you think it is difficult? Do you put things into practice?

Regards, >>17479363

[Anonymous No.17479488]

>>17479470
There are barely any arhats alive today, if any, so it follows that the number of accomplished people in general would be lower. The Buddha's time also had fewer distractions, and was overall less complex, better for liberation.
>Do you put things into practice?
Yes but I'm not very advanced.

[Anonymous No.17479598]

>>17479488
>There are barely any arhats alive today

That is because they don't have any reason to be here. Also, what is an Arhat to you? Enlightenment or Nirvana? Definitions of this are conflicting. You would be surprised by how many high-level people are out there.

>the number of accomplished people in general would be lower.

What is low to you? Accomplished people in this sense tend to keep quiet. This really isn't a big deal if you want to do it.

>The Buddha's time also had fewer distractions, and was overall less complex

What's distracting you? I would say modern life has potential to be quite comfortable and peaceful if you want it to be.

[Anonymous No.17479613]

>>17479598
>because they don't have any reason to be here.
Why?
>what is an Arhat to you?
I'm talking about the original definition of a being who has attained nirvana. What do you mean by "high level people"?
>What is low to you?
Well it makes sense that more people would be liberated during the lifetime of a Buddha. You just have to read the suttas to see how relatively easy it was back then, with entire groups of people becoming arhats just by listening to the Buddha's words. Comparatively, today, you can read thousands of pages of suttas and philosophy and still not even be a sotapanna. It seems that things have gotten harder.
>What's distracting you?
The comforts and easily accessible pleasures of modern life.

[Anonymous No.17479704]

>>17479128
Nirvana is beyond non existence and existence. Or more fundamental then "existing"or "non existing"

[Anonymous No.17479718]

>>17479416
no it's the same difficulty as before, especially when it is about to renounce worldly pleasures

The only difference between atheism and whatever was before atheism, is that nowadays the plebeians care about politics too, instead of not giving a fuck who rules over them and the daily activities of the ruling class.
So nowadays even the plebeians identify themselves with the various atheist ideas. They say ''in our democracy'', ''or with science we know that'' or ''my company says this or that''.

This stuff adds a layer of spooks to clean off from the deeply neurotic nature of anything alive, but it's not that hard to remove for anybody who is not a woman or an autistic atheist.
The danger is that when an atheist takes a step back from those spooks , they think they outwit everybody and are enlightened, but they just stopped subscribing to the narrative of the ruling atheists, and they don't back up far enough to actually go back from worldly pleasures and then from meditation.
This is what happens to the '''''''''''''''''''''engaged buddhists'''''''''''''''''''''and all the atheists who think that buddhism is compatible with marxism, antifascism and so on.

[Anonymous No.17479729]

>>17479704
No, existence and non existence are not valid even for Samsara . The proper vocabulary is conditioned or unconditioned. Samsara is conditioned, the path of devotion is conditioned (and doesn't lead to nirvana), the path to nirvana is conditioned and nirvana is not conditioned. That's the proper terminology.

[Anonymous No.17479757]

>nirvana more fundamental than existing or "non"existing. Therefore, Nirvana is both existing and "non"existing.

Is he correct?

[Anonymous No.17479768]

>>17479757
Not exactly, the Buddha would say it's not existing, not non-existing, not both, and not neither.

[Anonymous No.17479811]

>>17479613
>Why?
If you want the unfiltered answer it is because God does not will it. This is a good thing, no one is doomed.

>What do you mean by "high level people"
Enlightened or soon to be. I am under the impression that most people think enlightenment is the end of one's spiritual journey when there is quite a lot left to realize from there. Enlightenment is when one is thoughtless and experiences bliss and access to absolute knowledge.

>I'm talking about the original definition of a being who has attained nirvana.

Nirvana is a realization, not an attainment. Though it may appear so, you do not actually change. This is important to know.

>entire groups of people becoming Arhats just by listening to the Buddha's words.

Things like this are not due to luck and would not work on most people.

>Comparatively, today, you can read thousands of pages of suttas and philosophy and still not even be a sotapanna.

You can also realize Nirvana while being completely illiterate. Good practice is what will guide you.

>The comforts and easily accessible pleasures of modern life.
I do not know you personally so this is hard to address. Practice should be done daily.

[Anonymous No.17479977]

>>17479811
>God does not will it.
But there is no creator God in Buddhism.
>Enlightened or soon to be
Could you elaborate on what you mean exactly by enlightenment and how it specifically differs from nirvana? I know it's the mahayana ideal but I'm not sure what it exactly entails.
>you do not actually change
Well, rebirth ends, at the very least.
>Things like this are not due to luck and would not work on most people.
Why?
>Good practice is what will guide you.
And it is described in the suttas so that anyone can do it in theory, but in practice very few people make it. Even among current monks (which should be used as a benchmark), even though they practice all day, I'm pretty sure the last arhat was Ajahn Mun.
>Practice should be done daily.
That's what I'm doing. At some point practice requires renunciation and that's going to be the biggest obstacle to overcome for me.

[Anonymous No.17480029]

>>17479757
again no,

“By & large, Kaccāna, this world1 is supported by [takes as its object] a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination2 of the world as it has come to be with right discernment, ‘non-existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it has come to be with right discernment, ‘existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one.3

“By & large, Kaccāna, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings [sustenances], & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on ‘my self.’ He has no uncertainty or doubt that mere stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away.4 In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It’s to this extent, Kaccāna, that there is right view.

“‘Everything exists’: That is one extreme. ‘Everything doesn’t exist’: That is a second extreme.5 Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathāgata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

“Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.”

[Anonymous No.17480032]

>>17479768
no
>>17479757
again no

“By & large, Kaccāna, this world1 is supported by [takes as its object] a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination2 of the world as it has come to be with right discernment, ‘non-existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it has come to be with right discernment, ‘existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one.3

“By & large, Kaccāna, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings [sustenances], & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on ‘my self.’ He has no uncertainty or doubt that mere stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away.4 In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It’s to this extent, Kaccāna, that there is right view.

“‘Everything exists’: That is one extreme. ‘Everything doesn’t exist’: That is a second extreme.5 Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathāgata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

“Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.”

[Anonymous No.17480057]

It is basically what what atheists think there is after death: nothing, all black, oblivion, no consciusness.

[Anonymous No.17480077]

>>17479416
you can become a stream enterer in 1 month if you do a mahasi style retreat. theres shittons of monasteries in thailand, sri lanka, burma, etc. which teach that style of meditation. and they're all absolutely free to stay at. im not sure about other meditation techniques, but i can vouch for mahasi / noting style vipassana. good luck my friend,

[Anonymous No.17480115]

>>17479416
>Maybe Pure land believers have a point.
Not really, if they did, Shakyamuni would've taught his followers about rebirth in Sukhavati.

[Anonymous No.17480119]

>>17480077
>become a stream enterer in 1 month
Am I wrong to be skeptical of such claims? Sounds like a get rich quick scheme, how do they know they're not just attaining a jhana and deluding themselves?
Even then I think I'll do it since I've been thinking about going on a retreat for a while now. Thank you anon, good luck to you as well.

[Anonymous No.17480121]

>>17480057
Source?

[Anonymous No.17480128]

>>17479977

Are you open to things that aren't explicitly Buddhism? I could share some yoga related resources with you that will answer most of your questions. They take you to the same place.

>>Things like this are not due to luck and would not work on most people.
>Why?
Spiritual level and desire for truth.

[Anonymous No.17480131]

>>17480057
how the fuck can anyone grown up think anything else? fucking flyovers.

[Anonymous No.17480137]

>>17480128
I'm mostly interested in Buddhism, but sure, why not.
>Spiritual level and desire for truth.
So people in the past had a higher spiritual level?

[Anonymous No.17480180]

>>17480137

Two sites for you. The SSRF is legit, I have had experiences with their Guru you wouldn't believe.

If you like the way Buddhism is typically presented you may like Swami J.

Try to understand Self-realization or God-realization. This is the goal no matter what religion you prefer.

https://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/
https://www.swamij.com/

>So people in the past had a higher spiritual level?
Yes.

[Anonymous No.17480207]

>>17480180
Thank you.

[Anonymous No.17480223]

>>17479128
You stop wanting this and stop being attached to things in a way where you feel better.

It usually only lasts a few moments.

If you have 'enlightened' thoughts you have to just let those pass by as well and never hold onto them. theres no magic nirvana thing

[Anonymous No.17480245]

>>17480180
buddhism is not compatible with any guruism and all those sites are hindu crap

[Anonymous No.17480282]

>>17480115
Could someone address this? I've been interested in pure land but I have to admit this issue bugs me

[Anonymous No.17480285]

>>17480077
>theres shittons of monasteries in thailand, sri lanka, burma
How do you choose a good one

[Anonymous No.17480287]

>>17480245
>buddhism is not compatible with any guruism

Can you argue this at all?

[Anonymous No.17480431]

>>17480287
gurism is about being in love with a guru, just like a mom is in love with her kids. It's devotional and this is why all women are drawn to, like to think and hear that they are enlightened when they love their kids and become an helicopter mom. The path of devotion is not able to get you enlightened. Unconditional love, Compassion and rituals and devotion can only give you a good birth, in the evenly realms, which are cultivated with meditation based on non-renunciation like here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.008.nypo.html.. And in this case, it's devotion to a buddhist.
If it is devotion to a non-buddhist, then this non-buddhist better be preaching something akin to the 4 brahma viharas, ie unconditional love meme, otherwise, you don't even get the nice birth, because they may have different morality precepts, or have similar precepts with some wrong view tied to i,. for instance the jains have more or less the same precepts, but their fucked up view on karma prevent them to actually get good at meditation.

This path of merit-devotion-rituals is fine for lay people who want to feel spiritual & righteous (typically all the atheists in the west) and don't want to put any effort beyond this, but you can't get much out of it.
The 4 brahma viharas can't get you insight into the 5 aggregates.

[Anonymous No.17480486]

>>17480431#
Now on the practical side, the buddha and the monks are wanderers, so they either go from monasteries to monasteries, or just roam in the forest and this prevent ties between monks and also between monks and the lay people. A lay person can't build a devotional relation and do prostrations (like ngondro they have in vajrayana) and rituals to some guru he only met a few days in his life before the guru fucked off to hundreds of miles away from him without ever coming back.

[Anonymous No.17480495]

>>17480431
>Compassion and rituals and devotion can only give you a good birth, in the evenly realms, which are cultivated with meditation based on non-renunciation
What kind of meditation will make sure I get nirvana eventually?

[Anonymous No.17480516]

>>17480486
So that doesn't work even if there is only one religion in the area. When there are brahmins (who don't roam much, since they are living off the royalties by advising them and doing the rituals for them) around they would take the place of whatever Buddhist guru who left and the populace would just follow them.

[Anonymous No.17480519]

>>17479128
Nobody knows. Nirvana is a whole bunch of speculation.

[Anonymous No.17480688]

>>17480282
I'm pretty sure mahayana says their sutras were also spoken by the buddha but as secret doctrines or whatever. So to them the buddha did teach about sukhavati (even though it doesn't make much sense he wouldn't mention it to lay followers of little spiritual capacity in the Pali canon)

[Anonymous No.17480703]

>>17480495
bump

[Anonymous No.17480841]

>>17479128
We can never think rationally about life because to think rationally about a thing one must observe the thing soberly and at a distance. Therefore Buddha is a fraud.

[Anonymous No.17480844]

>>17480841
>t. has no idea what buddhism is

[Anonymous No.17480896]

>>17479223
This

[Anonymous No.17480908]

>>17479223
>>17480896
Completely wrong

[Anonymous No.17481240]

>>17480688
>mahayana says their sutras were also spoken by the buddha but as secret doctrines
I hear this a lot, where is it said?

[Anonymous No.17481344]

>>17479128
Why would non-existence be taught? In ordinary discourse it is normal to say something ceases to exist or becomes non-existent if we for instance, no longer perceive it as a stable whole, like a house being demolished or a living person becoming a corpse. But rubble gets recycled or landfilled, much like the deceased are; what is actually destroyed is some conception we had of those parts as a whole. If nirvana were simply coventional non-existence in which perceived things are destroyed for perceivers then it would not seem to have solved very much. One way of looking at it would be that in nirvana one realizes an end to such constructs in the first place.

[Anonymous No.17481359]

>>17480841
Hence the Buddhistic skepticism toward metaphysics, the teaching of dependent origination of phenomena, and the necessary path of realizing non-conceptual wisdom

[Anonymous No.17481375]

>>17480841
>rationality exists!!! my female teacher said so in HS!!1

american education

[Anonymous No.17481419]

I wish I wasn't such a pseud fag. When my mood is good and I have spirit I enjoy very much to swim in esoteric language, and I genuinely believe I understand. But when I have no spirit and can not think any more, then I have nothing. When I am rested I am curious, and being curious I make good company. But when this is taken from me I am not kind or compassionate, only miserable. No insight can penetrate it, it is solid as rock. If water can break it down, then it is slow. I am only interested in spiritual matters because of these times. One day, I hope, I will find a way of life where I do not become a selfish miser just because I am uncomfortable or tired. Perhaps the solution is not judging this process, and accepting this selfish side. I really don't know. I do know that the suffering is too present to ignore.

[Anonymous No.17481462]

alright, well what do you think about this
>compassion is not an action
>action is what comes in the way of compassion
?

[Anonymous No.17481464]

>>17481419
I only think persistence can solve your problem. It also seems like you are too quick to pass judgement on your own progress, or state of mind. But remember judgement is just another product of your consciousness.

[Anonymous No.17481470]

>>17481462
Completely and utterly false

[Anonymous No.17481566]

>>17481470
the idea was inspired by daoism. an idea that there is a way of things, which one can really only join or go against. "action" implies a goal. a goal implies an intellectual construct. directing oneself toward an intellectual construct means attachment, while the dao is unattached. It seems recurring in spiritual tradition that what remains when there is no attachment is compassion. So perhaps one could say that compassion is the way of things, and so in a way not an action, since it doesn't mean favoring any construct (if it is what remains when there is no attachment). I think the daoists would say so: the dao causes all to be and sustains all self-lessly.

>>17481464
Again with a daoist frame of mind, perhaps one could say that the judging I do against myself is already inherent in my desire. Because I rise against the dao, by desiring, I cause a movement which strikes back at me.

This, to me, sounds compelling. But I love expressing myself, and it is possible I have fooled myself. Still, I appreciate your replies.

[Anonymous No.17481810]

>>17481566
>"action" implies a goal. a goal implies an intellectual construct. directing oneself toward an intellectual construct means attachment,
It is Jainism which says that ''action'' is bad and being enlightened means not acting.'
Buddhism has nothing to with this.

[Anonymous No.17481881]

>>17480285
the sirimangalo ones are good i think, but im not sure myself. try finding someone who has gone there themselves

[Anonymous No.17481885]

>>>/adv/23549271

[Anonymous No.17481921]

>>17481810
could you tell me more about this? if desire is not good, and action is not bad, then action can not be the same as desire?

[Anonymous No.17481959]

>>17480119
you're completely right, and many monasteries have artificially inflated number of "stream enterers" because the teachers are too enthusiastic and place too much trust on the meditators. but, if you are truly in search of knowledge and not in it just because of the title, then you will surely know when you've seen nibbana, it is unmistakeable.

[Anonymous No.17481961]

>>17479128
It is simply beholding the void and putting a stop to conceptual thinking, due to attachments.
This includes all desires, even the desire for enlightenment. You must stop seeking and enter the void

[Anonymous No.17481966]

>>17481881
I'm kind of tempted to book a retreat to wat metta because I really like Thanissaro but are US monasteries less "authentic" for lack of a better term?

[Anonymous No.17482046]

>>17481959
>not in it just because of the title
I'm in it for the guarantee of seven more rebirths, I don't want to fuck up this life and be in samsara forever like guenonfag

[Anonymous No.17482053]

>>17481961
>enter the void
Good movie

[Anonymous No.17482281]

what is "doing"? in indras web, who gets to "do"?

[Anonymous No.17482285]

>>17481885
Holy fucking cringe larper.

[Anonymous No.17482286]

>>17482285
>larper
The guy's a literal monk you fucking dumbass

[Jesus No.17482455]

>>17479128
it's both nonexistence and "I am". existence and nonexistence are words which you interpret, they have "meaning", "value", "weight", reaction of your body, habit. no body, no habit, no interpretation, only direct perception. "no reaction". turn other cheek. be completely stoned. as castaneda put, it's all workings of tonal.

[Anonymous No.17482495]

>>17482455
this is one of the first decent posts I've ever seen you make

[Anonymous No.17482933]

I don't buy that permanent non-existence is even possible. Life is a dream and you are the dreamer and you always will be, "non-existence" is not gonna happen.

[Anonymous No.17482945]

>>17482933
>Life is a dream and you are the dreamer and you always will be
Sounds like hinduism

[Anonymous No.17482965]

there is no Nirvana. its literally divine b8. True enlightenment is accepting the unknown

[Anonymous No.17483255]

>>17481966
They're more strict if anything

[Anonymous No.17484348]

bump