post rome italian history

[Anonymous No.17450662]

Do you guys have any recommendations for books about Italian city states in the middle ages, and the kingdom of Italy's foundation?

[Anonymous No.17450680]

Based Italian booba

[Anonymous No.17451015]

>>17450662
About the fundation of the Kingdom of Italy speaking about novels I know Tomasi's Leopard and Confessioni di un Italiano by Pellico and in Eco's Prague Cimitery there is a section about it For Italian City states Dante writes a lot about them in his Commedia. Also, based Sofia poster

[Anonymous No.17451030]

>>17450662
BOOBA

[Anonymous No.17451037]

>>17451030
https://youtu.be/yXwraYZgr3U

[Anonymous No.17451050]

>>17451037
YOUTUUBA

[Anonymous No.17451055]

>>17451037
why does every meme have these shitty attempts at an in-depth explanation now? whoever started this trend is a real cancer haver

[Anonymous No.17451110]

>>17450662

[Anonymous No.17451166]

>>17451055
Actually the uploader just wants to shill his degenerate views on psychoanalysis, he only uses the memes to reel in clueless and defenceless zoomers. He doesn't make genuine attempts to explain memes.

[Anonymous No.17451169]

>>17451166
aint it typical

[Anonymous No.17451178]

>>17451169
If you take a look at his physiognomy, yes, actually. If you consider that he also shills David Reich, everything just makes perfect sense.
BTW >>17450662 fuck you retarded OP, your shitty thotbait pics have ruined this thread - as is expected.

[Anonymous No.17451188]

>>17451178
I know, I'm sorry. I just wanted to attract attention to my thread, but alas I attracted the wrong kind

[Anonymous No.17451200]

>>17451188
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS LITERALLY EVERY TIME ANON, HOW DID YOU NOT FORESEE THIS

[Anonymous No.17451207]

>>17451166
>>17451178
Hit a nerve huh

[Anonymous No.17451209]

>>17450662
Unfortunately I do not fellow anon, I wish you the best on your search though. Hope your thread works out.

[Anonymous No.17451286]

Carlo Ginzburg

[Anonymous No.17451301]

>>17450662
>TFW no tittymonster gf.

[Anonymous No.17451305]

Gawd what a stack on her

[Anonymous No.17451352]

>>17450662
The Prince is a very common book on this topic, and Dante's Divine Comedy also deals with it. Besides that, you c- HOLY SHIT LOOK AT THOSE FUCKING TITS AWOOOOOOOOOGA

[Anonymous No.17451368]

>>17450662
>>17451209
Real life succubus

[Anonymous No.17451520]

>>17450662
Seek help or ngmi
https://youtu.be/NUTXkDFvOOE
https://youtu.be/PVrjozFHCr4
https://www.webmd.com/sex/porn-addiction-possible
https://easypeasymethod.org/
https://yourbrainonporn.com/
https://nofap.com

[Anonymous No.17451550]

>>17450662
Literally everything Lauro Martines wrote.
>>17451286
My fucking guy.

[Anonymous No.17451566]

>>17451055
pretty sure you can blame zizek for the pop culture exegesis thing

[Anonymous No.17451576]

>>17451566
Zizek and the meme analysis guy are both based though

[Anonymous No.17451794]

Burckhardt's History of Renaissance Italy is a good starting place

Najemy is a great writer on the Renaissance, Gene Brucker is also good on Florence

There's a history of the Medici by Colonel G.F. Young, good for narrative political drama of some of the central celebrities of Italian history

Schevill has a big history of Florence from start to finish, it's old but good

Frances Yates has good books on the Renaissance revival of platonism that was hugely influential

Norwich is good on Venice, also the authors Garrett and Madden are worth looking at for Venice

However if you want a general starting place for understanding the history of Italy in and after the Middle Ages, I would recommend you start with Henri Pirenne's books. They are all quite short and enjoyable, and they give the broad structures of Europe's social and economic history, with Italy obviously at the centre for much of it. His book Mohammed and Charlemagne might be a good starting point (although it does assume you know basic background, but you could get that from Youtube overviews if you wanted), and then his full economic history. I also recommend Cippola.

You could also read Braudel's famous The Mediterranean.

I recommend this guy's channel for following the major events of Italian and European history in the late medieval and early modern periods.
https://www.youtube.com/c/pikeshotBattles/videos

[Anonymous No.17451807]

>>17451794
Also for basic overview:
>Western Roman Empire declines
>There is almost a counter-Byzantine kingdom in Italy around Theodoric and the Ostrogothic Kingdom centered in Ravenna, but it gets smashed and Italy becomes a chaotic mess
>the subsequent Lombard Kingdom is interesting but usually gets passed over, and it gets eclipsed by Charlemagne's conquests
>the Papacy for a long time is not very powerful, still subordinate to Byzantium and Emperor/Patriarch
>Papacy gradually grows and gets more ambitious
>same thing happens in France as Carolingian kingdom rises out of decrepit Merovingian kingdom
>Pirenne says: the central thing is that Europe is an economic backwater, disconnected from the former economic nexus of the Mediterranean (which even the late Roman West still enjoyed)
>Pirenne also says: the Gallic + especially the Italian West, at this point, are only loosely Christian, and probably still living in the degraded twilight of Roman culture/administrative sense (so it wasn't at all unexpected when Justinian tried to reconquer everything) - in short, the West still "feels" like a senile Roman world, not yet like a young MEDIEVAL world
>HRE/Papacy represent two new and slowly growing approaches to governing the West as a distinct entity, not a distant economic/cultural satellite of Byzantium
>slowly they grow and come into conflict (Investiture Controversy)
>new energies grow (warring noble culture, crusades, healthier economy/society)
>Italy still sleepy; a few towns learning to trade, especially Venice which is nominally a Byzantine protectorate but gets more and more ambitious
>massive economic revival in 13th century
>Holy Roman Empire / post-Charlemagne France / Papacy all competing "approaches" to how the West will be governed
>all of them claim/desire dominance over Italy
>Papacy bitchslaps HRE (Frederick II's ideal of a great Sicily-based kingdom fails), HRE becomes the famous decentralised mess most people know it as (through several centuries of sleepiness while the Habsburgs rise)
>France then bitchslaps Papacy though, asserting that the Popes will not be the chief authorities in Europe, but individual great monarchs (like Philip II Augustus) will - Avignon Papacy (Babylonian Captivity) happens
>the above + explosive economic recovery (for the first time since Rome: gold standard currency; Italian trade cities like Venice break away from Byzantium/Papacy/Empire more and more and become more ambitious) = the backdrop for Italy's rise between 1250-1500
>this 250yrs is when "Renaissance Italy," the famous Italy of world history, really occurs
>Florence emerges from sleepiness (it was there for a long time but didn't do much, like most Italian towns) for example
>Genoa, Milan, Pisa, Venice, Padua, others of course

[Anonymous No.17451819]

>>17451807
>these city states are ambitious but isolated, so they need to play the game of rivalry
>this game means playing the Empire (which is still trying to get back in the game, but fails again) and the Papacy off against eachother (the famous Guelphs/Ghibellines conflict)
>everyone is involved in this, even cultural figures like Dante
>it also changes the social structures of the towns: from divided merchant oligarchies (pic related: bolognese towers, forts within the city where the nobles feuded with eachother), communes, etc. toward tyrannies (overthrowing shitty oligarchies) and self-conscious republics
>Italy getting rich = culture flourishing
>but also anarchy
>this is where you can read Burckhardt, about the great ambitious men, condottieri, who come into anarchic Italy and try to survive and thrive in this play of powers
>this is the background of the rise of the medici, the visconti, the sforza, etc.
>major wars between city leagues now
>papacy tries to become dominant in italy, fails
>venice tries to become dominant in italy, fails
>now it's about 1500: where is italy headed? is one tyrant/republic/pope/emperor going to dominate everything?
>nope, now spain and france are absolutist monarchies and they are going to turn divided italy into a place for proxy wars
>spain ultimately wins
>great medicis reduced to grand dukes of habsburg spain
>renaissance fizzles out
>italy kinda slumps back into dividedness and sleepiness again until the 19th century
>italian unification happens
>"now we have a state and we just need to create the nation to go with it!"
>italians all hate eachother and can't get along
>italian politics is just meaningless corrupt garbage, country is a backwards medieval collection of barely federated city states still
>mussolini tries to fix it
>hangs out with hitler too much
>declares war on random greeks for no reason
>loses war
>more corruption and pointless nothing for a few decades
>the year is 2021
>you are the new garibaldi-mazzini-d'annunzio-mussolini reading this post
>you must unite italy

[Anonymous No.17451861]

>>17451807
>>Papacy bitchslaps HRE (Frederick II's ideal of a great Sicily-based kingdom fails), HRE becomes the famous decentralised mess most people know it as (through several centuries of sleepiness while the Habsburgs rise)
How did this happen, anon?

[Anonymous No.17451874]

>>17451037
This guy is such a fucking midwit, god.

[Anonymous No.17451878]

>>17451874
Truth hurts don't it

[Anonymous No.17451939]

>>17451861
Basically there were different possible paths of development and centres of strength that the West could take but none of them were fully actual yet, they were fluid potentials, and one of those possibilities was a re-subordination of the decentralised HRE to a powerful emperor (not just a king but a hereditary emperor), who could "flip" the HRE from the decentralised meme we all know into an instrument with a purpose in the hands of the Emperor. But to do that the Emperor needed to be more than one petty prince among many, the state of affairs that had turned the imperial election into a joke in the first place and allowed its potential as a unified kingdom to become more fluid instead of more solid.

Frederick attempted to do that by leveraging an outside power base to be more than just a petty prince, thus to bring the HRE in line. Not only would this give him a massive kingdom to use as an instrument as I said, it would have established the meta principle whereby the rest of the West would be governed: the old imperial principle of One Emperor in the West. You can see how the papal principle is opposed to this, the pope wants there to be One Pope in Christendom, and for manageably divided kings/kingdoms to exist under him.

The popes successfully outmaneuvered Frederick even though he was brilliant and the neo-imperial version of European history never happened. But neither did the papal supremacy version of history, despite "martial popes" attempting to formalise crusades and church administration as a quasi-imperial form too. Instead, Gallicanism happened in France, the origins of the modern state system, absolutist monarchies, and ultimately nation-states. While the HRE and Papacy had been slapping each other in Italy and thinking this was the only metapolitical conflict, post-Carolingian France was in the background stitching itself back together and slapping down its own petty princes one by one, reabsorbing the decentralised elements back under the authority of the patient Kings in Paris. By the time the popes defeated the emperors, the French king was too powerful to be suppressed, and subsequent history is defined more by inter-kingdom conflict between these hugely powerful kings than by either metapolitical principles of Christian empire or neo-Roman empire.

The French reassertion was aided by really fortunate dynastic stability, extremely long term patience, and strategic victories over the more powerful breakaway duchies that were verging on becoming totally separate (culturally, linguistically, administratively) quasi-kingdoms, in the south. For example the Albigensian crusade was a Papacy-French Kingdom collaboration to smash a rival outside both of their respective systems (French king wanted to destroy rival mini-kingdom, Papacy wanted to use heresy policing to assert interventionist meta authority). But it benefited the French more, and the French then did to Papacy what Papacy did to HRE.

[Anonymous No.17452010]

>>17451939
Also worth noting for further context that the English, which were effectively a French parallel kingdom themselves (Normans, culturally French, still in control of northern France/Normandy) then copied/paralleled the French innovation. While in the earlier middle ages things were more fluid and decentralised between these kindgoms and fiefdoms and so forth, like I said the French monarchy was extremely decentralised and could have simply become a formality, beginning in the 13th century the same "recovery" and centralisation (scare quotes because by no means inevitable) was mirrored/copied in England and elsewhere. This is the backdrop of the 100 Years War between England and France, which in a way is the new proto-state system trying to make sense of the more feudal, personal, familial relation-based system of the preceding era that still loomed over it.

The new states were defined by their need of an exchequer: a big fat purse for a king to be able to recruit and manage armies to fight these huge wars, basically. So there is a tendency toward centralisation, rationalisation, and administration. But you can see how this is itself a result of the raised ambitions and possibilities by the economic and social recovery of the 13th century, which Pirenne links to the recovery of gold currency in 1252 or so I forget exactly.

The Hundred Years War drove military regularisation and rationalisation as well as administrative rationalisation to make sure the exchequer was balanced and could afford all this shit, which drives taxation, abstraction and de-personalisation of connections between the political centre and the periphery since you need reliable tax collection and representation of how much money you potentially have etc.

Then the Habsburgs rise and you get the era of administratively complex absolutist kingdoms fighting eachother, massive influx of wealth and possibilities from discovery of new world etc.

Italy plays huge role in this because of Renaissance. ALL of these ideas after 1500 are infused with inspiration from Italian reestablishing of the ancient tradition. Almost all our modern editions of ancient Greek and Latin writings we have the Italians to thank for. They did 100 years of painstaking source criticism and critical editions.

[Anonymous No.17452067]

>>17451939
>But it benefited the French more, and the French then did to Papacy what Papacy did to HRE.
But what did the Papacy do to the HRE? How did they "slap each other down" with the HRE? The Papacy lacks the manpower to directly fight the Holy Roman Empire so I am assuming some more covert type of conflict.
I am probably going to screenshot all of this shit btw. You look like you know your shit. Tell me a bit about yourself, please? I assume you at the very least study history as a discipline.

[Anonymous No.17452216]

>>17452067
Oh you mean the specific events themselves? That's actually one of the most famous episodes in history and it comes down to lots of human level twists and turns, excommunications and crusades, broken promises to crusade, betrayals etc. It's not exactly covert but yes a lot of cajoling other powers in the HRE and rival kingdoms, who already have reasons for wanting to keep Frederick weak, to force him into tough spots. Excommunication was a big deal and Frederick only let it happen out of desperation. The pope had him in a bind by forcing him to crusade, he couldn't get out of it, and it was a way of keeping him safely away from the HRE (while it continued to fragment and the pope could conspire actively with the fragmenters). His decision to abandon the crusade was really a last resort I think.

I highly recommend reading/watching something full on it. Frederick was called Stupor Mundi, Wonder of the World, he was raised in an ecumenical court in Sicily where Arab and Jewish thinkers freely mingled with Christians and the ruler instinctively had to think on a scale bigger than feudal politics, about what good governance of diverse peoples actually meant. Some people have said he was an atheist etc. There is an incredible book about him by Ernst Kantorowicz.

Thank you for the compliment, to be honest I am just throwing out the mishmash of books and lectures I've consumed over the years so definitely not an expert. Don't screenshot it, just go read Pirenne and you could write 90% of it yourself tomorrow. I actually studied classics but it kinda bleeds over into late antiquity and the early middle ages.

Sorry to OP for filling the thread up with some off topic stuff, I just think it's way easier to understand the specifics if you know the broad frameworks, but it's so hard to find broad framework books these days.

[Anonymous No.17452266]

>>17450662
>>17451209
This is witchcraft, straight up black magick.

[Anonymous No.17452290]

>>17452266
Italians and jews tend to have big booberinos

[Anonymous No.17452370]

>>17451209
she looks like that girl from that first scene in V/H/S

[Anonymous No.17452652]

>>17450662
God. Imagine burying your face in those things while you're on top of her, pressing your manhood to the hilt inside of her as she firmly grips your testicles with her alabaster fingers and warmly whispers "dammi il tuo seme" into your ear.

[Anonymous No.17453401]

>>17452652
Pepe's penis is bery thin

[Anonymous No.17453506]

>>17450662
>>17451209
MAMMA MIA

[Anonymous No.17454694]

I love italian meatballs

[Anonymous No.17454989]

>>17451037
the moment people do this to in-jokes (memes for oldfags), then you know the "medium" is done for

[Anonymous No.17455003]

I Promessi Sposi is set roughly in that period. Incidentally the best book you’ll read all year.

[Anonymous No.17455884]

>>17450662
Whats the girls name

[Anonymous No.17456588]

>>17454694
Them’s some spicy meatballs.

[Anonymous No.17456677]

>>17450662
sauce plz

[Anonymous No.17456816]

>>17455884
>>17456677
IG Shiftymine

[Anonymous No.17456842]

>>17450662
>>17451209
H-How many gallons!?

[Anonymous No.17458415]

>>17450662
That’s a tranny with fake tits anyways, no amount of janitors deleting my truth pills is gonna change that.

[Anonymous No.17458426]

>>17450662
Venice A Maritime Republic

[Anonymous No.17458433]

>>17451807
>Pirenne
Oh no no no

[Anonymous No.17458487]

>>17458415
Nah it's a real girl. She's got Crohn's with a colostomy bag, so her anus is probably clean as well.

[Anonymous No.17458605]

>>17451352
The perspective of this picture is fucked

[Anonymous No.17458755]

>>17450662
POOP BAGA

[Anonymous No.17460245]

>>17452290
moar

[Anonymous No.17460424]

Brehs

[Anonymous No.17460459]

>>17458415
yeah man everything's a tranny

[Anonymous No.17460520]

>>17460424
I dunno man... I just went and looked her up, and the more I saw of her the more I couldn't unsee late-stage michael jackson with massive tits. The IG filters is doing weird things to her face.

[Anonymous No.17462097]

>>17460520
what's her @?

[Anonymous No.17462121]

wtf

[Anonymous No.17462130]

>>17462121

[Anonymous No.17462141]

>>17462121
>>17462130
Just bee urself bros

[Anonymous No.17462154]

>>17451037
>freud
opinion discarded

[Anonymous No.17462248]

>>17462097

shiftymine

[Anonymous No.17462268]

>>17462097
shiftymine. its in one of the pics in this thread

[Anonymous No.17462649]

>>17451037
i like a fucking booby who gives a fuck? cry about it.