thinker/writer 3by3 thread

[Anonymous No.17435496]

make one, criticize others on their shit taste

[Anonymous No.17436214]

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436308]

Top row is composers, second row is poets, third is writers in general and the final row is philosophers. I’m trying to compile as many of these little lists as possible mostly as a kind of autistic self analysis.

Give me recommendations lads.

[Anonymous No.17436320]

>>17436214
names and if they're fiction/poetry/philosophy?

[Anonymous No.17436323]

>>17436308
what do mean rows?

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436335]

>>17436323

It’s four different lists each 4 x 4 in size, so the top 16 are composers, the next set of 16 are poets, the next set of 16 would be those who I esteem as overall writers and the final 16 are the philosophers. Of course the writer/poet one is pretty blurry (only reason Virgil and Dante are in that section is I don’t believe anyone has been able to translate their works at a sufficient level and I respect them for aspects of their content beyond skill with verse in terms of raw beauty/aesthetic)

[Anonymous No.17436375]

>>17436335
Thanks could you name the writers and poets in that order if you don't mind? Also is that Knut Hamsun below Shakespeare? Did you enjoy his "Hunger" I loved that work is so much it peak stream-of-consciousess

[Anonymous No.17436398]

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436402]

>>17436375
I liked hunger but no it isn’t. It’s Huysmans. An absolute arch-decadent .

Here’s the list

Composers:

Elgar
Debussy
Eric Satie
rautavaara
Wagner
Schubert
Bach(also place Mozart and Beethoven here, choosing between them is a fool’s errand)
Jeremy soule
Yuki Kaijura
henry purcell
Giovanni Battista Pergolesi
Chopin
Fritz Kreisler
Alexander Scriabin
Gustav Holst
Hildegard of bingen

Poets:
Swinburne, verlaine, Poe, Baudelaire, blake, li-he, al-hallaj, angelus, Ovid, Petrarch, Horace, Edmund Spenser, Chaucer, Shakespeare John Keats, Mallarme

Writers:

Dunsany, huysman, Balzac, Nerval, Thomas brown, Blackwood, Borges, Dante, kafka, Milton, Goethe, Machen, Robert Burton, Johannes Valentinus Andreae, Lucius Apuleius, Virgil

Philosophers/mystics: husserl, hegel, meinong, agrippa, boehme, John Dee, Kenneth grant, Iamblichus, Bertiaux, Abhinavagupta, Deleuze, gikatila, Linji, abulafia, merleu-ponty, Ge-Hong

Give me book recommendations m8, also recommend me something else to make another 4x4 of, it’s going to be fun mapping as much as possible.

[Anonymous No.17436436]

>>17436402
>An absolute arch-decadent .
I loved the decadents I enjoyed most of them and I got de Nerval cause of a thread you were in. Did you read the anatomy of melancholy entirely?

[Anonymous No.17436456]

>>17436214
>>17436398
only 2 i would get along with.
>>17436308
try hard

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436460]

>>17436436
I did at some point last year and prior to that I had some not as thorough experience with it. It’s a beautiful work. I think if a person isn’t ready for it though they would drop it, by this I mean, he readily admits that most authors steal from others so he’s being honest, by stringing along so many quotes and citations and his musing on the nature of life, melancholy, madness, and so forth. It’s a large work and you really grow attached to Burton, I also like to use it as a kind of encyclopedia since it has so much odd lore in it.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436481]

>>17436456
>Yuki Kaijura
>Poe
>Blackwood
>Bertiaux and others

I don’t really see those as try hard, I just have a particular taste in philosophy and fiction and verse and try to go to dudes who are similar, if I find a work isn’t enjoyable I’ll simply drop it and not look back. Who would you recommend I’d read or listen to also anon? Or is it try hard because of the amount because yeah I totally get that if so, but I am compiling autistic lists as a manner of analysis of common themes, common threads for my own purposes ya know.

[Anonymous No.17436497]

>>17436460
>I also like to use it as a kind of encyclopedia
This sounds cool, although I just might download it and skim through it. I plan on reading Nerval's Aurelia later this week or next and i'll make a thread about it right now I'm reading Aloysius Bertrand's Gaspard de La Nuit which directly inspired Baudelaire to write Paris spleen(or poems in prose) I think you would like both of these if not already looked into it.

[Anonymous No.17436511]

>>17436481
it isnt meant to be an offense. just an observation of mine. although i dont see how composers have anything to do with /lit/ though...

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436521]

>>17436497
>Aloysius Bertrand's Gaspard de La Nuit

I haven’t read it, I’ll see if I can’t dig up a pdf, and if you want I’ll find an anatomy of melancholy pdf for ya also. I am however a fan of Baudelaire. Do tell how you like nerval! His oneiric stuff is really odd

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436540]

>>17436511
Ah apologies, in a way they’re connected since wagner wrote and folks like Elgar introduced me to works like dream of gerontius, although it’s because i didn’t make the list for /lit/ apologies for the off topic aspect. Also let me ask you a deep question and I’d find the answer highly enjoyable if you go detailed with it.

Tell me what do you consider the nature of art, it’s purpose, value, uses, spiritual amplification, aesthetic power and so forth. Going by your list it should be a really fascinating synthesis of ideas.

[Anonymous No.17436773]

>>17436320
Hermes Trismegistus, Hamann, Sade
Maistre, Stirner, Barbey d'Aurevilly
Lautréamont, Gide, Klossowski
(a mix of phil, fiction and poetry; quite a few do two or more even)

[Anonymous No.17436801]

>>17436540
i believe art and aesthetics are demonstrated by the power it emits to an individual person directly based on their own virtues. it is provided by one valuing it authentically as if the emotions come flowing out as a result of it. take a subjectivity sweeping me away through an intense feeling of emotion. the way i see it. this applies to individuals differently dependent on the moment, place, and experiences that are happening in an instant. this is also exemplified by the dullness of everyday scenery becoming an embodiment of depression and boredom. at least to me that is. the rarity of that experience is what makes it a million for me personally. being at the right place at the right time and knowing this experience is entirely unique on its own.

it is as if confronting a punkster or jazz musician and asking what is punk or jazz? the usual answer i get is that it is just that, punk or jazz. no further explanation than that.

i despise order, but i understand the necessity to have it to desire the things i like which are of an irrational or chaotic quality.

i gaze upon chaos and it looks back at me and it imprints an emotion in me. just like an object or tool or concept. i get fixated and mesmerized.

there is no explanation i can give that'll represent that moment. it is of mine alone to witness.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17436914]

>>17436801
I’ve read similar and nearly identical ideas in a more orderly fashion in the aesthetic writings of Nicholai hartmann, lovely philosopher I highly recommend him. He argues the same point of individualistic virtues, The importance of dasein and the birth/emergence of art through the individual partaking of the illusion within that particular moment. If you want a more spiritualized view that mirrors your own check out Wagner’s shorter essay on art and if you like it easy his longer, iirc it’s like 16? Pages long.

You’re a Worshipper of Los to put it a blakean context, while thats understandable, my inclination is fully within Urizen and the harmonization of Urizen with the others, by this I mean, I love and absolutely adore Order, structure, pattern, category and so forth and much of my occultism and art is about synthesis of irrational into harmony with the rational and structural aspects. Ya know, alchemical marriage.

When I look upon chaos, I have no desire other than implementing Law and structure into it, to have it devoured by the mouth of Saturn and the sun conjoint.

But I’m sure you agree with Goethe, that each man has different virtues and values within him which makes beauty/harmony with his own soul very case dependent, so while you perhaps value Los, I must value the serpent bound to the cross.

[Anonymous No.17436944]

>>17436308
Frater is the most cultured on this board. Hands down. What a chad.

[Anonymous No.17437006]

>>17436914
well said. i'll look into hartmann. i've also already read a bunch of Wagner as is, so i'm familiar. And yes, I'm a lover of the Los and i find mutual relation with Urizen as an enemy of mine. I steal the property of those who clears up the fog. although i still have much to learn from my foes.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17437048]

>>17437006
Eh, enemy is too strong within this his world, it’s just different aspects and parts of the world, life and the self. Even ignorance (the origin of all evil and sin) is itself when looked at purely, nothing but purest childhood innocence.

In any case with that particular view, do you produce any art? Whether music or poetry or prose or painting? If so I’ll definitely check it out and tell ya my honest opinions

[Anonymous No.17437141]

>>17437048
nah, i've mostly been contemplative and studying and sharing my ideas to people who i closely value. i find that for some reason i get put in positions on helping peoples mental instabilities and they then give me support as a benefit.

and yeah, enemy is a strong word, but i think it is proper. harshness has to have some point in language depending on the context. Artaud, Diogenes, and Stirner got me to understand that notion after all.

anyways i'm just doing play for all i know lol.

[Anonymous No.17437166]

>>17437048
Also i find nothing wrong with the idea of ignorance. i find it arbitrary to decide a measure of it.

[Anonymous No.17437202]

>>17437048
>>17437166
>Ignorance, which can never be found in the present, and is therefore illusory, is the origin of causality. This ignorance differs essentially from that triplicity of attributes (being, awareness, and
bliss) which is the immediate experience of our self.
- Adi Shankara, Atma Bodha 13

[Anonymous No.17437223]

>>17437048
>>17437166
>Ignorance, which can never be found in the present, and is therefore illusory, is the origin of causality. This ignorance differs essentially from that triplicity of attributes (being, awareness, and bliss) which is the immediate experience of our self.
- Adi Shankara, Atma Bodha 13

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17437291]

>>17437141
Fair enough, definitely try some stream of conscious though.

>>17437223
As a tantrik I both agree and within nuance disagree. By illusion I do not see anything as truly separate from the Will and being of shiva therefore Illusion really means awareness of himself through the dance/reflections/vibrations of space-time. Thus illusion who is maya is kali, it is Shakti which is just experience of one part of Godhead. To elaborate further, ignorance can be defined as Tamas which is the experience of absolute object nature without any nature of subjectivity pervading it, in this regard objectivity and tamas is itself awareness. When looked with Pure eyes, when burnt in the fire of knowledge, the horrible terror, the Rasa kali, is naught but the mother, the daughter, the sweet one, the childhood innocence, Purity itself. I’ll quote from a writing I wrote during a spiritual ecstasy.

A true path to the highest Tamas, the Tumor of the dark goddess implores me to write of it.

Accursed are the lower forms, their ignorance is the ignorance of men, ye her ignorance is that of a innocent child and not that of men.

Take of confusion, partake of it over and over, leaping from one thought to the next forgetting the last trying to grab the last and make it the next onward and forward, go until you remember nothing, in the confusion is a forgetting of the previous self, in becoming confusion is the revealing of the highest nature by means of ignorance.

Take of delusion and confusion, place into it the Soul of knowledge, forget what you know then try to remember what you have just forgotten, partake of its abominable mutation and behold, it shall be as if the Tumor of the dark goddess had given it birth.

Look upon what you barely remember look upon what you do not understand, expand upon them with absolute ignorance and behold you shall become master of it within the backwards shadow.

To the bestial, the sexual, all animalistic rites, these are not of the highest ignorance, for behold the secret word of the ultimate darkness “Perfect innocence” and the child is ever innocent. Partake of me, the friend of children, by becoming like a child, dwelling ever happy in delusion and ignorance, multiplying delusion upon delusion, filling it with the soul of knowledge and of self nature.

Of the most deluded look upon them as if the hedgewitch, the otherkin who sees within his soul the monster, he who makes of himself forget his being and worships it as if a plaything of youth animated by the desires of child-hunger for friendship.

Behold therefore true nature, the highest darkness, the true Arcana of ignorance, the Delusion-Divine Innocence.
Note there’s similar practices all throughout shakta tantra so besides the cringey wording, I think my point is sensible.

[Anonymous No.17437302]

>>17437223
eh, i'm not fixated on the idea of it either existing or not existing. i find it useful as a tool to describe the feeling of it at this moment. all of these concepts are entirely empty. i just make it manifested into what i deem as of value for myself and of using it as a tool for a given context.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17437314]

>>17437223
If you’re interested friend I’ll link a pastebin wherein I break down the Tattva ontology and the implications it has for various things, if you’re interested.

[Anonymous No.17437458]

>>17436308
what do you think of marquis de sade?

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17437503]

>>17437458
I’m a fan of him as a kind of western Aghori. My ideas basically coincide with blanchot’s in this essay.

http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=186D46CA51787AD417FBE082BDD9C2EB

Which is to say, he doesn’t even believe desire is a admirable aim, rather his highest value is freedom which he expresses through crime and negation/anger, how he progresses in his angry denial of society, moving. Into denial of conception of god and finally the paradox of denying in anger the imprisonment of Nature/ones own nature itself, which his fulfilled by self denial and a kind of ataraxia attained through expressing your desire through writing/imagination as annihilating your desire while still expressing freedom.

I think Sade, Rimbaud and Lautréamont‘s views considering the hellish/animalistic/monstrous/derangement for the sake of freedom is more or less all summarized and completed in the writings of William Blake on his conception of hell and energy, in this regard I consider Blake as superior to all of them in his project. So all things considered I definitely think Sade (other than 120 days because it’s not a complete book and was meant to bind all of his atavistic impulses in one place) is worth the read if you put your mind to actually analyzing him.

[Anonymous No.17437533]

>>17437503
>http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=186D46CA51787AD417FBE082BDD9C2EB
not him but interesting essay. If you don't mind me asking Asemlen what do you do for a living/what is your age I always see you making quality post

[Anonymous No.17437588]

>>17437503
I had always had this fascination with him for I could never fail to intuit a political and moral gist expressed and hidden in his violence and hatred. Yeah, I want to read this essay by Blanchot. I have read Klossowski's and it is incredible how he developed profoundly what I felt but couldn't give form. You are right in your analysis about him. But I can relate a lot to Sade's radical gnostic character concerning purity, the inherent violence in our impulses and in the cycle that controls and reinforces them. Now I'm much more obsessed with him not to assimilate him into my own system.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17437595]

>>17437533
I won’t say my age but I’ll say I’m married and have children.

As for what I do, well my day job is I own an auto repair shop and mostly just sit around it while others work so that gives me a good amount of time to just do other things. As a gypo, the auto industry was the logical option.

But I far more enjoy my side businesses, buying and selling cars which can be pretty fun but much better than this, I work as a kind of middle man for other Gypsy on the diamond district of Manhattan, so whenever I have the time and will I’ll go to the major jewelry stores, post it around the internet advertising for other Gypsy, then they’ll message me telling me they want a particular piece, I give them a price and they send me the money, then I purchase the jewelry and send it to them. This is enjoyable because well, I get to look at jewelry all day and don’t have to spend a dollar to profit off of it, I often will get requested for certain odd jewelry pieces also. It mostly works because Gypsy don’t really trust themselves with shopping for higher end stuff (lack of connections, bad at calculation and none of them can even really loop a diamond honestly. Only thing they can do is sometimes spot a fake Rolex)

Corona’s the major reason why I started getting into jewelry but the profit is pretty good, considering going full time with that business due to the higher return to time investment ratio.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17437615]

>>17437588
Oh totally. I mean the whole point of Justine/Juliette is that their differences in conception, freedom, views of purity and desire radically changed their position in life, one being a ever beaten rape victim, the other a liberated and pleasurable libertine. This is largely what de Sade is getting at when he’s talking about how such ideal libertines cannot be punished and Attain endless pleasure, because pleasure itself is metabolized into a consensual act of pleasure for the individual, even if this requires the subjugation of another. Such is the absolute freedom at the heart of de Sade.

[Anonymous No.17437634]

>>17437302
fuck that
>>17437314
based, send us the pastebin

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17437650]

>>17437634
https://pastebin.com/AjzfzFTk

The schema will be the one found in the Tantraloka of Abhinavagupta as in my opinion there is no higher tantric source.

[Anonymous No.17437676]

>>17437634
>fuck that
good. bring out that passion.

[Anonymous No.17437814]

>>17437676
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I'M SO FUCKING HORNY GRRRRRRRRRRRR I NEVER GET ANY PUSSSSSSSSSSSYYYYYYY AHHHHHHHHHHHH FUUUUUUUUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK CUNT I HAVE A HORSE COCK ARGAHGRHAGRHRGHAG FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKING PUSSY IS LOST BECAUSE OF MY IGNORANCE AHHHHHHHHHHHHH ILLUSION AHH ATTACHMENT AHHHHHHHH PASSION FUCKING CUNT CUNT CUNT WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU SPEAKING TO AHHHHHHH

[Anonymous No.17439318]

Bump

[Anonymous No.17439713]

bump

[Anonymous No.17440167]

These are the philosophers I like

[Anonymous No.17440174]

>>17440167
And this a list of the poets I like
>>17436402
Good taste, never heard of Swinburne though.

[Anonymous No.17440274]

Some of the thinkers I find interesting

[Anonymous No.17440442]

>>17440174
Also made a chart for novelists since I'm bored.
>inb4 Döblin and Zweig but no Musil
I really like Musil but he doesn't appeal to my personal tastes as well as Zweig and Döblin do.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17440790]

>>17440174
Oh he’s quite a fascinating poet, here’s three poems of some interest.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45288/the-garden-of-proserpine

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45290/hertha

https://internetpoem.com/algernon-charles-swinburne/the-witch-mother-poem/

Do tell me your thoughts of a bit of the poems linked, friend. You yourself seem to have good taste

[Anonymous No.17440840]

>>17440790
>https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45288/the-garden-of-proserpine
Fuck man I was almost brought to tears, it's really good. Probably an overly-dramatic reaction but it really is beautiful. It almost feels like what I imagine Basho and the like feel to a native Japanese speaker. I'll definitely check out his other stuff.

[Anonymous No.17440845]

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17440870]

>>17440840
Thanks my man, I always try to shill this guy because he’s one of our prime English decadent poets and his knowledge is encyclopedic and his skill fantastic. Meaning so much of his poetry can reach the heights while weaving a fairy tale/mythic qualities while maintaining melancholy or any other emotion he so pleases. While I’m no where near his skill here’s a poem I wrote in pastiche of his style.

Coming home for the first time

more lovely than the sunset on these waters
is that glimmering city seen from afar
joy and delight are the names of her daughters
for she shines brighter than any silver star
and as I come to port to its harbour bar
before my eyes the souls of the breathless bay
rise as the sounds of crashing waves, so bizarre
you can hear their voices clear even this day
“away sailor, a trap, away” they say
but the light weaves as a strange gossamer there
and the voice of rest and tiredness beg “stay”
what dwells in you city, that can ensnare
like flies men of freedom and will to power?
“i will leave” yet passes another hour


Hope you read more Swinburne!

[Anonymous No.17440876]

>>17440845
Jarry!!!

[Anonymous No.17440906]

>>17435496
Who are the two guys sided with Naess ? The one with a red hat and the beard one ?

[Anonymous No.17440926]

>>17440870
I have actually criticized your poetry before and I have to say I can see some improvement if this is a recent-ish work. I would say taking this poem into consideration, a lot of your other work feels like it has a few lines too many, try to simplify your work as much as you possibly can for a while. A while ago you responded to me telling you your work lacks some characterization by saying you were going to start a project to write characters better, how did that go? Generally I think you're a little better at that than you were before, but there are lines like
>you can hear their voices clear even this day
>“away sailor, a trap, away” they say
Where I think I can see some room for improvement in this regard. Try to write in less theys and thems and more hes and hers, even little things like that make a whole lot of a difference for poets early on. Hope that's helpful.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17440966]

>>17440926
Thanks anon, I wrote that poem according to my records about 6 days after we last spoke, I write daily to grind away at advancing the skill and I’m always seeking critique, I’m a firm believer that with practice makes perfect and that any critique if taken into consideration can definitely improve ones skills.

I’m still working on that project since it’s a very big and long project that’ll be likely novel length and I wouldn’t want to produce something of a medium amount of effort.

Thanks for the critique and word of advice Anon!

[Anonymous No.17440998]

>>17440966
Glad you're practicing hard, I hope you enjoy the feeling of improving inch by inch. Do make a post about the project in one of those poetry generals when you finish it, I want to know what it ends up like.

[Anonymous No.17441050]

>>17440906
>jacques cousteau
invented scuba, underwater videography, and modern ocean/marine ecology
wrote the silent world and directed several pioneering documentaries/tv shows
>edward abbey
cool dude that drove bulldozers off of cliffs to stunt park development in utah and arizona, all around swell guy
wrote desert solitaire

[Anonymous No.17441313]

>>17441050
Thank you very much God bless you.

[Anonymous No.17441496]

>>17435496

[Anonymous No.17441614]

>>17435496

[Anonymous No.17441618]

>>17440845
Based Gallic 'pataphysician

[Anonymous No.17441986]

>>17436214
what do you like about klossowski? is his fiction baphomet any good?

[Anonymous No.17442395]

>>17435496

[Anonymous No.17442435]

>>17442395
>palamas
based

[Anonymous No.17443104]

>>17441986
His books on Sade and Nietzsche have greatly impressed me, but I like his fiction a lot too. The Baphomet is a great odd mix of things, the setting of a historical novel, with theological digressions following obscure erotica. I liked it a lot, as did I The Revocation of the Edict of Nantes (which mixes erotica, digressions on art criticism, and some mystery elements).

[Anonymous No.17443160]

>>17441618
if you know any non-Gallic 'pataphysician, I am interested

[Anonymous No.17443263]

>>17440966
I suggest you to read about J G Keely, a goodreads reviewer. His fond of fantasy and has a site where he speak to it other then his gr reviews. Im the poehead so i dislike fantasy, but maybe you will find some hidden gems in his site
http://starsbeetlesandfools.blogspot.com/2014/06/so-ive-written-novel_19.html?m=1

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17443268]

>>17443263
I’ll check him out! Thanks!

[Anonymous No.17443287]

>>17443268
Np. I hope he will add more immagination to your mind. Also, i want to be a creator of stories. Fiction, imaginitive, aesthetical stories, with fine taste elegance of words. Maybe journalism can help on that. Cuz Poe was a journalist. But of what journal should i write...

[Anonymous No.17443356]

4x4 autist incoming
Names by row in case anyone is curious:
>Rabelais, Wagner, Plato, Boehme
>Kant, Heidegger, Nietzsche, Spinoza
>Aristotle, Milton, Plotinus, Pseudo-Denys
>Schelling, Deleuze, Foucault, Mauss
I would have put Girard on as well, but no space.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17443369]

>>17443356
Absolutely based. While ive heard of him I haven’t read Mauss, is he something I would be into? Like would you recommend him to another, what’s he like?

[Anonymous No.17443379]

>>17443104
I'll certainly read it. Have you read Diana at her Bath? Will probably read it this weekend.

[Anonymous No.17443417]

>>17443369
I would recommend him for sure. His analysis of gift-economies is quite interesting and I believe he influenced Bataille on this account. I'm mostly interested in him because I think he has some very interesting views on Sacrifice/Violence and Magic and their interplay within societal structures (this is also why I am a very interested in Girard). If you're into structuralism or anthropology/sociology in general you should definitely give him a read.

[Anonymous No.17443496]

>>17443379
I did. I like how it changes tone and it's hard to categorize whether it's a theoretical or mytho-historical essay or a fictionalized tale. Apart from themes present in the rest of his oeuvre, the meaning of it somewhat eludes me.

[Anonymous No.17443556]

>>17443160
Roger Shattuck?

[Anonymous No.17443860]

>>17443556
tl;dr? There's not much on wiki

[Anonymous No.17444251]

>>17435496

[Anonymous No.17446052]

>>17443356
based. whose metaphysics do you subscribe to?