/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17431576]

Is this our ultimate destiny? To be the Pompeii soldier dutifully keeping guard while the rotten iceberg of our civilization slowly melts away until something new full of vigor emerges?

[Anonymous No.17431595]

atheists care about politics to fill up their day and build a narrative where they are righteous

[Anonymous No.17431598]

>>17431595
Spengler wasn’t an atheist and neither am I.

[Anonymous No.17431606]

this is like how a child thinks

[Anonymous No.17431624]

>>17431606
Dilate

[Anonymous No.17431637]

>>17431624
He's not wrong, imagine thinking some midwit that got vaporized by a volcano due to his programming is in some way noble. That isn't a noble or honorable end. It's a fucking stupid end, and fuck anyone that comes preaching things like loyalty of this sort. They want you to be a drone, to be cattle, don't you ever forget that.

Let them guard their own doors.

[Anonymous No.17431643]

>>17431624
grow up

[Anonymous No.17431673]

>>17431637
>>17431643
What pathetic creatures you are. So completely subservient to your mediocrity you can’t stand the existence of greatness. Seethe.

[Anonymous No.17431722]

Spengler said the first Christianity was
early christianity (0-500) in the Orient,
the second in the okzident (1000-1500) and
the third will be in Russia for the first half of the (coming) millenium (2000-2500)
Is he right? THe chrstian Russian revival fits almost too perfectly in his prediction. I know post USSR Russia is big on making orthodox christianity an essential part of Russian Identity, and they are building huge churches and cathedrals for the military, but is Russia actually becoming Christian in their sense; so necessarily different to the two previous forms?

>I also really loved his distinction between Tolstoi and Dostojevski. I can not find fault in what he says and feel like what he said was the perfect articulation of how I felt regarding Tolstoi and Dostojevski.

>>17431598
>>17431595
Spengler said Atheism is jsut the new religiousness. There is no difference in the belief of previous times and that of the current big city "atheists".
Just read him instead of just wanting to talk about him like utter retards
>>17431637
>>17431606
>t. never even read Spengler before.

All of you do realize it is incredibly obvious to tell if you have read Spengler or not. Even your 1 sentence replies immediately out you for being philistines.
Only Hegel threads are worse than Spengler threads in this regard.

[Anonymous No.17431730]

>>17431722
Which one of his books should I start with? Decline of the West?

[Anonymous No.17431731]

>>17431730
yes

[Anonymous No.17431739]

>>17431730
I'd start with Farrenkopf's Prophet of Decline as a preliminary.

[Anonymous No.17431744]

>>17431730
Yes but you pretty much need to have read all of history and philosophy before reading him. Also, taking math to calc3 definitely helps. He talks waaayy more about math than one would assume he would.

[Anonymous No.17431745]

>>17431576
No? That's fucking retarded.

[Anonymous No.17431751]

dont do this >>17431739
dont read secondary literature before you read the main guy himself. It is beyond retarded

[Anonymous No.17432555]

b

[Anonymous No.17432566]

>>17431576
>Memegler
Nope lol

[Anonymous No.17432577]

>>17431576
You're a fat loser on an anonymous forum filled with Chinese drawings of pubescent girls with purple hair, know your station in life.

[Anonymous No.17432609]

>>17431576
This is kind of true, but it's not nearly as boring as all that. Greatness lies in recognizing that we are now in the Roman orgy stage of the decline of western civilization. You should plunder civil society of wealth and indulge all the most hedonistic fantasies. You must embrace the fact that the end is forewritten. You must publicly bemoan the downfall of virtue "oh, the times, oh, the morals!" while privately cutting huge corrupt deals to enrich yourself and your family at cost to the public good, and engage in the most disgusting debauchery. Only thus can we live at peace with the collapse of democracy and the coming tyranny.

[Anonymous No.17432615]

>>17431637
It's only the soul of an ant which cannot distinguish between loyalty and unconscious programming.

[Anonymous No.17432801]

>>17431576
Space frontier is endless, and affords a way out of the cycle through the engine of space imperium. Wild West in zero G or bust

[Anonymous No.17432803]

>>17431576
Whether Spengler is largely right or largely wrong regarding his ideas broadly, his point about your having a commitment to weather through the epoch you’ve been born into seems pretty much unable to be argued. However, the thing about Spengler is I think he had certain affinities for Western civilization, or Faustian civilization as he called it, having lived during his time in Germany, who he thought would be the leader of the Faustian civilization, not Britain or America. Would Spengler feel similar affinities for Faustian civilization or its “technics” today? I sincerely think not.

[Anonymous No.17432821]

>>17432801
>Space colonization is a subversion of the faustian spirit
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1612189517337.webm

[Anonymous No.17432825]

>>17431576
>new full of vigor

When our civilization collapses this time, the only thing it's going to be full of is niggers. There will be no great synthesis of barbarian and civilization this time.

[Anonymous No.17432831]

>>17431722
>the third will be in Russia for the first half of the (coming) millenium (2000-2500)
>Is he right?
Probably. Orthodoxy is flourishing in Russia and is almost state-sponsored. Just take a look at pic related. It’s the cathedral they just built for their armed forces. Who else is out there building grand cathedrals? Now, where I think he’s wrong is Orthodoxy is actually Orthodox so I don’t know how it can be anything new. Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote a book Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future. I haven’t read it so I’m not actually certain that he’s saying Orthodoxy stands in opposition to this “Religion of the Future” or that Orthodoxy is the Religion of the Future. I think it’s the former but it’s relevant either way. Catholicism and Protestantism (with all its derivations) are quite obviously physically (and spiritually) dead. Whatever spirit once inhabited the Western Church has undoubtedly left it and gone to the East and any study of Western church history, particularly it’s esoteric currents, makes that perfectly clear.

[Anonymous No.17432861]

>>17431722
>>17432831
I’m more curious to here what you think the implications of this, if you accept it to be the case, are though. Russia is undoubtedly a world super power and is working overtime to assert its own culture and civilizational status in opposition to both the exclusive Occidental and the exclusive Oriental. Whether that’s successful or going to be successful, who knows? The meteoric rise of largely secular states, which are actually counterproductive to religion and Christianity in particular, namely the United States, European Union, and China suggests there’s an inverse relation between the national wealth/power and religion. If one really considers it without delving into whether it’s desirable, it makes sense. Will Russia be able to assert itself in light of it or will it simply remain a relatively powerful refuge for Christianity.

[Anonymous No.17432881]

>>17432803
>Germany, who he thought would be the leader of the Faustian civilization, not Britain or America
He didnt mean Germany Germany. Prussian germany is what he hailed as being the true bearer of the faustian spirit.
He literally saw the kaiser be removed and the weimar republic go into the scummy (his perception) Nat Soc take over (he died in 1936).
He also saw Britain and Germany as pretty much the same (a line he wrote during WW1); he praised Cecil Rhodes as THE archetype for the future man (a brit), etc. etc.

For him the difference wouldnt have been whether it was France, Italy, Germany, Britain or even the USA who was the embodiment of the Faustian spirit; he would have certainly said it wasnt the russian, magian or chinese though.
Prussia died long before the abdication of Wilhelm, but the prussian system from the previous centuries (18 and 19.) influenced all other systems, also Germany itself (even in such mundane ways as having prussian thinking people be in other [governments like Kissinger for Nixon], prussian scientists leading their fields, etc.)

[Anonymous No.17432906]

>>17432881
Well, thanks for clarification but the point stands. As for his seeing Britain and Germany as pretty much the same, I don’t know if that’s because of his time or what but I think that’s quite a stretch. I don’t see much Prussianism in the modern United States at all and my note about “technics” is to suggest that what passes for Technics today is something Spengler would’ve been quite pessimistic about. There’s a sense of optimism in Spengler or at least a like of this Faustian civilization that I just cannot believe he would still have were he alive today.

[Anonymous No.17433104]

>>17432861
As i said above I really like how he describes Tolstoi and Dostojevski.
Tolstoi is a westerner, from the big cities who when he talks of christ, means Marx and his ethics is western socialist (as opposed to Dostojevski, the russian with the spirit of the land/planes, swamps and forests who hated St. Petersburg, who would have shrugged at the moral talks from any marxists because "how does the lack of property benefit anything", and in his refrences actually does mean Christ and not the "xd Jesus was the first socialist" Christ.) [quoting spengler with most of this]
The main take away of course has to be that you can not actually understand the other cultures or civilizations as they themselves behave you can jsut see the patterns they necessarily follow and will evolve into.
Russia had it's communism-russian style, the way china tried to implement communism but with chinese characteristics. Neither can be (from Spengler) compared as beign the same communist ideas being done in different locations, but two compeletely different cultures who are through some pseudomorphosis using communism to continue their historical destiny development.

If you go by this then maybe you would have Peter the great be a contemporary of Charlemagne or at least Otto and not the contemporary of Friedrich Wilhem I of Prussia. So all this means is that Russia is at a different point in its historical development than the occident and even China. It would be safe to say that post the western ideologies that controlled Russia for so long (from the french diplomacy and dutch economy) that Russia is only now able to follow its pure RUSSIAN path and has the previous russian history from the river warriors to the communist days as its culture [earliest being its Urvolk] to rely on (I remember Dugin saying this is what differentiates the American from the russian, because the american has no history to rely on; it has all these americans it made but the state, the culture is without roots. Russia has very deep roots). If Christianity only flourished from 1000 on in the occident then the same early christinization time has elapsed to finally develope its own organic christianity (which needs to have zero relation to the greek or any other orthodox system [remember orthodox is ONLY the combination of the words orthos=right and doxa=belief] That Christianity can be found in the same name in so many different forms is quite obvious so I certainly would say it is fair to say that Russia can create its completely independent unique christianity that needs to bear ZERO resemblance to any other christianity except for the vocabulary and story ideas it borrowed from those early "christians".
> Will Russia be able to assert itself in light of it or will it simply remain a relatively powerful refuge for Christianity.
Remember that if you are not russian who has the russian race (spengler's sense) who lives in Russia you will have zero accesspoints to this Christianity.

[Anonymous No.17433128]

>>17433104
what I mean with the last line is that Russia iwll never be a refuge for Your Christianity or any one's Christianity who is not of the russian race.

[Anonymous No.17433140]

destiny is the ultimate LARP

[Anonymous No.17433435]

>>17433104
>the american has no history to rely on
This is absurd though. The only way you conclude that is if you accept that history is confined by race, and as far as he know that’s a concept he rejects, or if one believes in some magical soil hypothesis. It doesn’t make any sense. The same guy also claimed that Protestantism is Traditional, which is just a totally logically incoherent and inconsistent set of claims. I don’t think he’s relevant here. I don’t think it’s fair to say that Russia has its own Christianity at all. I’m not a Russian Orthodox but I know quite a lot about Russian Orthodoxy via the ROCOR and I’m pretty confident when I say that Russian Orthodoxy is almost thoroughly Byzantine and the closest thing to old Christianity that exists. The notion that is has zero resemblance to it is actually kind of absurd to me. The last bit about not having access points to (presumably Russian or did you mean all?) Christianity unless you’re a Russian from a Russian space seems especially strange to me. Spengler, as far as I know, never made a racial argument. There could be Faustian man who is Nigerian by blood. Likewise, there could be a Russian man who is Italian by blood. I don’t really agree with what you’re claiming here at all.

[Anonymous No.17433587]

>>17433435
>is confined by race, and as far as he know that’s a concept he rejects
he reinterprets it himself to not restrict it to such things as phrenology. its more time and place and the visage (die Miene) in the flesh of the face that makes the race. But the more I read of how you interpret his meaning of race or how he could not have interpret it the less its seems you actually know how he means it.
>and I’m pretty confident when I say that Russian Orthodoxy is almost thoroughly Byzantine and the closest thing to old Christianity that exists. The notion that is has zero resemblance to it is actually kind of absurd to me.
you write as if you havent read him, but only of him.

>>the american has no history to rely on
>This is absurd though.
the american has no Urvolk. Spengler says: "Europeans didnt arrive in america, it was the americans who left for it." The occident Urvolk are the gauls, the germanics, etc.; for the magians it is the mesopotamians; for the russians it will be the early russian oarsmen. Spengler always claims the occident to be american-european. I wonder how much he would still call it that today, with the US no longer even having that personal alive relationship with England anymore let alone any other european state it once had.

[Anonymous No.17433745]

>>17431730
Man and Technics is a nice little primer (only about 70 pages) for the main course, Untergang des Abendlandes

[Anonymous No.17433774]

>>17431576
>Die for lies

[Anonymous No.17433781]

>Lieber tot als Sklave

[Anonymous No.17433824]

>>17433587
Not who youre responding to, but I think its obvious that America has pretty thoroughly broken with Faustian Civilization and is a kindling ground for a new Culture. The strife it will endure in the coming decades is a fight over what that Culture actually entails.

[Anonymous No.17433833]

>>17433587
> no you don’t understand, but I won’t explain why
> no you didn’t read
...
I don’t even know what you’re getting at here... are your saying I didn’t read them or I didn’t understand them or what? This hardly seems helpful.
>”Europeans didnt arrive in america, it was the americans who left for it."
I know what Spengler says. I still think it’s absurd. How can the Soviet Union be a pseudomorphism but the American experiment not? It’s nice rhetoric when he says the Americans left for America, but it’s still just rhetoric. There’s a logical inconsistency there that you’re just glossing over.

[Anonymous No.17433848]

>>17433824
the US broke off from the faustian spirit because Techno-Capital reached escape velocity and took the nation hostage.

[Anonymous No.17433854]

>>17431637
Imagine living by resentment.

[Anonymous No.17433858]

>>17433833
are you this butthurt because you are a mutt?
You must be in huge denial, because I could ask anyone from all the other continents outside of america and they would concur with the statement that America has no Urvolk and is completely different to the russian people.

[Anonymous No.17433862]

>>17431730
Someone already told you, but man and his technics is short, sweet and good intro

[Anonymous No.17433864]

>>17433824
Why is that obvious? See, this is honestly my problem with Spengler and Spenglerites. What is even the basis for saying that? Every time I see someone speaking about Spenglerian ideas, they inevitably get reduced to either empty rhetoric or speculation when challenged on them. Hence, the problem with Spengler. He was a logical (and religious) relativist. It’s not that he’s entirely wrong but definitively but there’s no actual logical grounding for the the conclusions people attribute to him and thus no logical grounding for the conclusions that people extrapolate (speculate) because of him. The same is true with other authors mentioned here. If that’s all you’re trying to do is speculate then fair enough but let’s be clear about that.

[Anonymous No.17433871]

>>17433858
> challenges you further explain or backup what you’re saying
> hurr durr you’re just a butthurt mutt

[Anonymous No.17433880]

>>17433858
Also
> appeal to consensus
Really just continuing to illustrate what I mentioned above. You can’t address the logical inconsistency, resort to assertions, and if challenged on them resort to a fallacy.

[Anonymous No.17433899]

Schizophrenic thread

Unverifiable nonsense

[Anonymous No.17433900]

>>17433871
>>17433880
>america is an immigrant nation with +50% of its population only having arrived in the last 100 years and its identity being no older than 1620 with the mayflower
vs.
>a people that has lived on a land for near 2 thousand years
Oh man, this one really makes my head hurt. Ahhh how can i not seee the LOGICAL INCONSISTENCY!!!! AHHHHHH b-but communism!!!! AAAAAAAAHHHH how does one overcome this fallacy!!! Guys having McDonalds is totally like having Wagner o-or Disney movies are jsut like Parcifal, King Arthur or Grimms fairy tales MMMMMMMMMMMM CONSOOOOOOOOOM

>i wont take you mutts seriously if you are so obdurate

[Anonymous No.17433905]

>>17433864
It isn't, Spengler would disagree with what he's saying. America is thoroughly Faustian. America is the MOST Faustian society, ever. Case in point, America's military dominance is based on air power, something that no other society EVER has ever been able to actually use, and something that no other society on the planet can ever wrap their head around. It is only by importing Faustian men and Faustian ideals that any society can run an air traffic system (I mean this literally, the Chinese literally just take America's air travel systems and apparatus and put people with 120 IQs in charge of it, unlike America which puts 70IQ'd Somalis in charge of its airways).

The problem is people want Faustian Man to be able BASED crusaders RETAKING the HAGIA SOPHIA, when it's not about that. At all. People want Faustian Man to be able St. Peter's Cathedral and the Parthenon, forever, and that's not how it works. Spengler posits that these world-spirits are organic, and that means they are born, live, and ossify (they don't "die" per se). They desperately want what we see now ("Social Justice" for simplicity) to be an aberration instead of a natural state in the West's progression so that we can have some pure, true state to return to.

What they don't want to admit is that this IS the pure, true state, and that this means that the West, like all societies, is not special.

[Anonymous No.17433918]

>>17433900
So you’re distilling it to a racial basis, which is exactly what I asked you and you refused to answer? You’re asserting that Spengler’s basis is fundamentally racial?

You have no genuine answers here.

[Anonymous No.17433935]

>>17433900
>>17433918
Or is it magic dirt theory? Because you seem to be implying that too.

[Anonymous No.17433943]

>17433918
you havent read him, its painfully obvious. I wont give a QRD of his +20 page explanation of race that bases itself on a +500 paratext and contextualization.
Fuck off nigger. Im not spoonfeeding someone who is unironically pretending to have some moral highground by being ignorant. You are an abomination.
Keep thinking Spengler had the phrenologic conception of race then if this is so dear to you, mutt.
If all you can do is always circle back to a point I specifically excluded then I ont bother engaging with you anymore.
You want to be happy being ignorant then be ignorant. Stop talking about a man and his ideas if you have never engaged with his work.

[Anonymous No.17433965]

>>17433943
> noooo you haven’t read him
> nooo I don’t need to justify what I’m claiming
It’s almost like you can’t and now you’re just coping.
> moral high ground
What?

Look, you still haven’t explained an ounce of your claims. Is his basis racial or is it not? Is it about magic dirt or is it not? How is the Soviet Union a pseudomorphism but United States is not? These should be questions you can answer but you seemingly cannot, or will not. Either way, I can’t attribute much authority on anything to you in light of that.

[Anonymous No.17433996]

>Guys I havent read the book but I totally understand the terminology used in it.
>LOL? Your explanation doesnt fit my personal predetermined view?
>Get fucked loser. Either you explain it the way I like it or you havent explained shit.
>Won my 8th internet debate this week already. pff. stupid europoors.
>No I wont read a book. They are only consemtic.

[Anonymous No.17433998]

>>17433965
>race
Spengler's race has absolutely nothing to do with biology or geography, it is purely about partaking in a worldspirit.

>pseudomorphism
Neither the USSR nor the USA were a pseudomorphism, the USSR is in fact a rejection of the pseudomorphism. Petrinism under the Russian Tsar was the pseudomorphism.

[Anonymous No.17434007]

>>17433998
>No your pseudomorphism was a pseudomorphism. My pseudomorphism was the actual russian communist spirit that is totally organic to russia and fits neatly in its history.

[Anonymous No.17434016]

>>17434007
Correct. This is what Spengler believed. If you don't like it, that's fine, but this is what he says in Decline of the West.

[Anonymous No.17434038]

>>17433905
>The problem is people want Faustian Man to be able BASED crusaders RETAKING the HAGIA SOPHIA, when it's not about that.
Thats what the Second Religiousness will be, the whole suicidal social justice impulse is simply the last gasp of the Domination of Money before we get Caesar and the triumph of force politics. The Western Imperium will be a terrifying worldstate

[Anonymous No.17434056]

>>17434016
>. If you don't like it, that's fine, but this is what he says in Decline of the West.
at no point does spengler say that communism is anything other but once again a western influence exerted on russia. He literally claims all the morality behind communism to be occidental and not russian.
I wonder why he claimed that the atheist communists would fade less than 100 years after their powergrab and turn into a christian paradise of development if it was finally the organic russian spirit and not jsut like the tsar a western pseudomorphism on russia.
To spengler communism was strictly occidental. He claims socialism to only be occidental because onyl for them would be gaining all social benefits not freeing them up for otium but actually liberate them to perform better in their destiny of the faustian spirit which is endless in space unlike the magian, egyptian or ancient spirit.

[Anonymous No.17434079]

>>17433996
This is just embarrassing. You’ve simply failed to justify anything.

[Anonymous No.17434098]

>>17434056
Oh, you haven't read Decline of the West. I can explain this concept to you, but really you should just read it.

Pseudomorphism is when one world-spirit is forced to act like another. In this example, Petrinism was the Tsar forcing Russian Man to act like Faustian Man. A prior example is Apollonian Man forcing Magian Man to act Apollonian. This slows, but does not stop, the development of the world-spirit. The USSR, by its very nature of rejecting the Russian Czar and as such Petrinism, was not a pseudomorphism. It takes this further by opposing the USA, which is the peak of Faustian Man.
>b-but Lenin was a Jew!
In Spengler, "race" has absolutely nothing to do with biology. It's purely about partaking in a world-spirit.
>b-but muh communism was a destruction of the russina SOVL muh solzhenitsyn
You're misunderstanding the timescales that these world-spirits operate on, anon. Faustian Man started in 900AD. We haven't even gotten to Caesar. The USSR was a blip that existed so that Russian Man could shake off Faustian yoke, and nothing more. You yourself point out that Spengler says this.

[Anonymous No.17434146]

>>17434098
>Oh, you haven't read Decline of the West. I can explain this concept to you, but really you should just read it.
fuck off nigger. I have read the book. All i mentioned he stated in the book. Stop coming off as if communism is anything other than an alien ideology forced upon a different culture than for where it came from.
If Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin and co all got their ideas from their time in Munich and Vienna and so then these ideas are not russian but imported from the west.
He never claimed the russian to be faustian but claimed that their communist idea was not russian. Why else predict that it would all come tumbling down again?
Russia is currently in its most emancipated state since at least the 17th century
>In Spengler, "race" has absolutely nothing to do with biology. It's purely about partaking in a world-spirit.
it is not pure materialism but it is not pure spirit. its the difference between SPENGELRS "Dasein" and "Wachsein".
And fuck off with your wikipedia tier context.
Sorry the only place on earth where communism would have worked always rejected it for a more adequate socialism not influenced by utopian lethargy reveries.

[Anonymous No.17434187]

I still don’t see any logical justification for the claim that America has no history or urvolk or for the claim that Russian Orthodoxy is a “new” Christianity.

[Anonymous No.17434223]

>>17434146
Well, you're at an impasse then. If I'm wrong, you have no way of knowing so as you haven't read the book. If I'm right, you have no way of knowing so as you haven't read the book. So, we'll just leave this off at you going and reading the book. Get back to me after you've done so. Have fun!

>>17434187
Russian Orthodoxy is not a "new" Christianity, Christianity plays no role of importance (or rather, more so than any other form of religion) in Spengler except in as much as Russian Man will contort Christianity to fit his needs (as Faustian Man and Magian Man have done). America is part of Faustian Man, it is not a separate world-spirit.