/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17419862]

Anyone here read John Milbank? I'm curious as to what do you make regarding his ideas on Islam?

>Christianity is a universalism going beyond the Jewish law, whose place is yet not denied. Islam is a universalism of a new revealed law that claims to be secretly the oldest one. It does not unambiguously build upon either Judaism or Christianity, since it claims that the sacred texts of both distorted have the original Abrahamic message. The resulting attitudes towards history, towards ethics and politics and coercion, are all in practice quite different from those of Christianity. There is less tendency to de-sacralise coercive authority and warfare, even if this contrast admittedly gets often over-exaggerated. Religious law tends to be more culturally central, especially in the Arabic recensions and this circumstance renders the roles of an independent ethic and an independent, principled politics somewhat weaker. Patriarchy is more explicitly to the fore and there is a pervasive suspicion of the image, which is only also true of some Protestant parts of Christianity which have repeated the iconodule error of not thinking through the implications of the Incarnation.

> I would be very sceptical about saying that Islam has made a contribution to the history of Europe equal to that of Judaism and Christianity, or that without Islam the history of Europe would have been unimaginably different.

>And, a fortiori, how could any Christian be complacent about the prospect of the Islamification of Europe, as Hellyer implies she should be? It is impossible to disentangle cultural influence and practice from mission, and for a Christian the abandonment of Christianity means nothing less than the abandonment of God's appearance and voice in the world in human guise. A public manifestation whose truth must be hyper-obvious if the Incarnation is true, since God is the most hyper-manifest reality that there is, albeit to us also normally invisible for that very reason. Apostasy is not to be regarded lightly, as all Muslims would agree.

He goes on to accentuate that a major difference between Christianity and Islam is the former regards coercion and war as innately profane, whereas the latter considers them sacred when in God's service.

[Anonymous No.17419982]

>gay prot whining he can't push gay protestantism to muslims

[Anonymous No.17419992]

>>17419982
He doesn't consider himself a Protestant but an Anglo Catholic and he draws almost exclusively upon Catholic theology

[Anonymous No.17420141]

>>17419862
>Christianity is a [...]
Everything here is correct. Christianity makes the Law not just a sort of list of rules just for one group of people, but an entire schematic worldview for everyone. The end-bit about how both Islam and many forms of Protestant Christianity are both suspicious of the image is very on-key as well, though I'd actually point out that Protestant Christianity takes it somewhat further than Islam, as cultural Islam still has things like "the evil eye" and that hand that wards it away, whereas some forms of Protestantism go so far as to eschew any form of the supernatural actually occurring (barring the events within the Bible) such as the Sacraments. It's a pervasive systemic issue.
>I would be very sceptical [...]
The first half is true. Islam itself didn't make much of a contribution to Europe compared to Judaism/Christianity. However, without Islam, there wouldn't have been Crusades almost definitely, and the lack of a method to not only unite Europe at times but also get bloodthirsty knights out of Europe did have a significant impact. Islam's significance is generally in the fact that it served as a good "other" for Europe to fight.
>And, a fortiori, [...]
This is absolutely correct and I don't think I have anything to add to this.
>He goes on to accentuate [...]
This is an important difference, as the majority of the Church Fathers were pacifists, whereas Islam's foundation is violence. Christianity is about God coming down and being as one of us, Islam is about God being wholly separate from us. Christianity is, (please pardon the saccharine language), a fundamentally humble and love-centered religion, where God became Man that Man might become God. (From St. Athanasius) Islam, however, is more akin to a divine tyrant, where even if this divine tyrant isn't abusive, they could do as they please; there's nothing stopping them. (Contrast this with the Christian discussions of how God couldn't do evil, as it's not in His Nature)

[Anonymous No.17420153]

>>17419862
The real redpill question is whether a moderately tolerant Muslim Europe society is less hostile to Christianity than Enlightenment Europe/USA/West. I can imagine it is at least conceivable that a lot of Christians would feel more at home in a tolerant Muslim society than at the coming technoratic enlightenment society.

[Anonymous No.17420170]

>>17419992
Well that explains why he is such a gay prottie then

[Anonymous No.17420246]

>>17420153
I think an even better redpill question is whether Christianity will be strengthened by persecution and selective condensation of its membership. There is no doubt that Catholic Christianity in Western Europe was an integral contribution to the development of the civilization that emerged there in the second millenium but the actual nature of Christianity was somewhat deformed and diluted by the Church and the masses. It was originally a very radical doctrine.

[Anonymous No.17420256]

>>17420246
>I think an even better redpill question is whether Christianity will be strengthened by persecution and selective condensation of its membership.

there is literally 0 question, yes

[Anonymous No.17420264]

>>17420141
>as cultural Islam still has things like "the evil eye" and that hand that wards it away,
This is cultural Islam like walking under a ladder being bad luck is cultural Christianity. In fact talismans against the evil eye are forbidden by Islamic doctrine even if the evil eye is acknowledged as real and other ways are given to combat it

[Anonymous No.17420479]

>>17420153
>technocratic, enlightened
Our current order more closely resembles the left-wing of Christian thought gone berserk, all the way into heresy, than technocratic enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.17420496]

>>17420479
i said enlightenment not enlightened, big difference

[Anonymous No.17420525]

>>17420479
it more closely resembles hatred of the goyim majority and sanctification of minorities. The model of chosen/gentile has just been replicated for other demographic categories.

[Anonymous No.17421304]

>>17420246
>The roman religion will only get stronger from here, trust me.

[Anonymous No.17421331]

>>17421304
Idk was it based around a martyr?

[Anonymous No.17421522]

>>17421331
no, but it's arrogant to assume that even though Western civilization exhibits the same symptoms that Rome did during it's decline that the West will not die like it did. These anons saying that Christianity will be strengthened by this crisis are like Julian thinking his religion would only grow stronger after it's long decline.

[Anonymous No.17421534]

>>17421522
Western Civilization is fucked, Christianity /= Western Civilization.

[Anonymous No.17421541]

>>17420479
you mean liberal. it would be a singular blessing if catholic trade unionism became a major political force again.

[Anonymous No.17421568]

>>17421534
>Christianity /= Western Civilization
I suppose that's true, a Christian civilization can exist outside the West. China may become a christian civilization given time, so might India. In the West though it is dead and has been for some time.

[Anonymous No.17421605]

>>17421568
The main outposts of Christianity are now Russia(and some other Eastern Euro countries), Latin America, some African countries, and the meme Christian regions in the US(Amish, Mormons, etc.).

When the West collapses Christianity will continue in these places. China idk, their culture is not really amenable to Christianity, do you remember the hilarious edits they were making to the New Testament to make it basically more Confucian.

[Anonymous No.17421607]

>>17419862
>a new revealed law that claims to be secretly the oldest one
...like the Oral Torah, you fucking dipshit. The Pharisees' whole goddamn thing is the Double Secret Revelation received on Mt. Sinai. These are the 'traditions of men' the Gospels bitch about.

[Anonymous No.17421854]

>>17421605
I thought of China as a candidate because I heard Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the country but changing Bible verses sounds like changing the tenets of Marxism to suit the Chinese system. It seems like any philosophy/religion coming into China is doomed to be assimilated even if they are in power for a while,like with Mao and Marxism.

In my view, Christianity will have success if it spreads to a place that it's never been to before. It will benefit from being seen as a new and radical religion that solves the problems of the old society (like it was in Julian's time). In Russia, Christianity isn't in the same dire straits that it is in the West but it also doesn't have the same place that it did before the 19th century. Christianity in Russia probably does have a chance at a revival though unlike the West.

[Anonymous No.17421905]

>>17421854
Russia just built a gigantic 'military cathedral' and many of the people there are still fairly invested in the religion. If anything the fact that it survived the USSR so well is a sign of resilience as well. Russia has some pretty severe problems of its own but I don't think it's headed for imminent demise in the same way as the West.

With China I couldn't say. I don't know much about China, it's possible some new form of Christianity could spread there I suppose. If it's the fastest growing religion like you say then that is something. What percentage of China is atheist now do you know?