Hey uti/lit/arians, do you think the killing of another human being can be justified if that human was evil?

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Anonymous Mon May 2 07:09:19 2011 No.1740663 [Reply] [Original]

Hey uti/lit/arians,
do you think the killing of another human being can be justified if that human was evil?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:14:19 2011 No.1740671 File: 738 KB, 962x1441, WARCRIMES.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] YES. A death sentence should be the penalty for waging a hostile war.

>>	sage sage Mon May 2 07:16:19 2011 No.1740672 sage&report the samefag shitting lit

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:16:19 2011 No.1740673 To prevent further killing, mhm, let's say m'kay. If the direction is reversed, i.e. kill a person who has already done some killing, then it's a different thing.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:19:19 2011 No.1740679 >>1740672 it hurts every day that you wake up and you are still not a janitor on /lit/, doesn't it?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:22:19 2011 No.1740682 >>1740663 >implying he wasn't a freedom fighter and a hero to his own people, trying to fend off american imperialism Also, no. A punishment should be a statement of moral superiority to the act that a person being punished for.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:23:19 2011 No.1740684 what did osama do?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:27:19 2011 No.1740692 Reported, you're not /lit/.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:27:19 2011 No.1740694 its a whole thread of samefaggery!

>>	sage sage Mon May 2 07:28:19 2011 No.1740697 Get back to /new/ faggots.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:30:19 2011 No.1740705 I urge all /lit/ posters to report this thread. Thank you!

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:31:19 2011 No.1740706 >>1740697 >Get back to /new/ faggots. lol EPIC FAIL

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:31:19 2011 No.1740708 >>1740694 i am, at least, not op. of course i'd to hear what people who esteem lev tostoy and ayn would tell about the burning issues of the day.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:32:19 2011 No.1740711 i am also not OP, but I posted the war crimes poster earlier.

Anonymous Mon May 2 07:35:19 2011 No.1740718

"There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending." Abe Lincoln

Osama's death in no way means an end of terrorism or the 'war on terror'. It could even have the counter-effect of new attacks on western countries/embassies followed by retaliations, leading to more bloodshed.

As long as North-America upholds its Hollywood image of good and evil and arabic supervillains this conflict will never end. Chanting 'USA USA' after 10 years of pointless fighting with thousands of innocent people dieing and countries being destroyed, to me, is a really sick and short-sighted thing to do. When people base their victories on revenge and death you should wonder if your terms of good and evil still hold meaning.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:35:19 2011 No.1740721 >>1740711 but would you dare to post it on facebook?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:36:19 2011 No.1740724 >>1740721 i would, but i do not have a FB because i am not a faggot

Anonymous Mon May 2 07:38:19 2011 No.1740726

I think the only justified reason to kill a human being is if their actions are purposely going to lead to the death of many more people.

Now the issue with Osama Bin Laden is that he no longer has any influence over Al Qaeda strategy or policy but some may say his image still holds influence.

To be honest I'm not too happy with the response to his death more than the death himself: people celebrating (no matter who the person is, it's never tasteful to celebrate their death), absolute crazy conspiracy theories occurring once again and a further resurgence of idiotic patriotism.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:40:19 2011 No.1740728 >>1740724 >>1740721 >>1740718 >>1740711 >>1740708 >>1740706 samefag

Anonymous Mon May 2 07:40:19 2011 No.1740731

>>1740724
what use is it to post any kind of agitprop on 4chan? to crawl away in your hole and grumble - that's faggotry. Real man can risk their face and career for the truth. Facebook is an outlet for everyone. The Arab revolutions have been done through facebook. the freedom of word isn't the freedom of slave owners any longer, you are just too much a faggot to use it.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:43:19 2011 No.1740737 >>1740663 Well done on making a martyr out of him. Murrika really thought that one out through.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:43:19 2011 No.1740738 >>1740731 cry moar CIA fag

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:44:19 2011 No.1740739 >>1740731 most people on 4chan probably have a larger audience on 4chan than on facebook

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 07:48:19 2011 No.1740748 'justice' is nothing more than the spirit of revenge

>>	sage sage Mon May 2 08:01:19 2011 No.1740762 sage

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 09:05:19 2011 No.1740856 >>1740748 Nietzsche dixit but his views fell out of favour with Nuremberg when we, the West, have claimed moral superiority over savages by giving a trial to the worst of them.

Anonymous Mon May 2 09:47:19 2011 No.1740910

>>1740663
Morality is a human construct, no god or buddha or christ or prophet came down from heaven to deliver it to us. Morality isn't even the same between cultures. Osama bin Laden thought it was moral to kill innocents to achieve his goals. In Pakistan, they think it's moral to rape a woman as punishment for her brother committing adultery (not even with her.)

Morality is just a codified and often spiritualized version of social mores that have fallen into place naturally over millennia of humans living and surviving in groups.

Anonymous Mon May 2 09:57:19 2011 No.1740921

>>1740910
So, morality is culturally relative.

To bin Laden, it is justifiable to kill Americans because he is doing it for moral ends.

To Americans, it is justifiable to do all of this because from their relative point of view he was evil.

At the end of the day each party is just as bad as each other and guilty of basically the exact same crimes. Both are also unable to grasp that their view of right and wrong exist only in their own minds and are willing to be ruthless and bloodthirsty in order to establish their relative values on a large scale. Possibly because they realize that their values are empty and think if they had an empire of people who shared the same worldview, their morals and values would somehow become objectified.

Or maybe they are manchildren who kill each other for idiotic reasons.

The death of any person should never be celebrated.

>>	☿ !Rrxa7zePwI Mon May 2 10:00:19 2011 No.1740925 rather childish question.

>>	NonsequiturBear !!UFPpi0sFoPR Mon May 2 10:05:19 2011 No.1740930 >>1740663 >uti/lit/arians lol

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 10:06:19 2011 No.1740932 >>1740663 I don't really care about humans.

Anonymous Mon May 2 10:11:19 2011 No.1740939

>>1740921

I think it's unfair to say that either party is blind to the hypocrisy of their actions. In either case, their actions were motivated by a sense of survival. Bin Laden was trying to rescue his culture from the corrupting influence of those he saw as evil, while the United States hated Bin Laden for his (alleged; orchestrated) actions against innocent civilians. I'm sure that there were times when Bin Laden regretted the loss of at least a few lives from any of his actions, direct or indirect. He probably considered this a "necessary evil," a small price to pay for the greater good of striking a blow against the Great Satan.

It's easy enough to criticize people's decisions from outside the situation after the dust has settled, but consider the fact that we're not privy to the intricacies of these mens' moral codes.

Anonymous Mon May 2 10:48:19 2011 No.1740986

>>1740939
I understand this and take it into account. My view is just relative in any case.

Both parties have the blood of innocents on their hands. Both have committed atrocities.

As much as I am spewing relativistic, philosophical shit, at the end of the day the dead families from all of the nations effected by this situation aren't going to take much solace in the intricacies of some random person with powers worldview.

From my own (relative) perspective, this is what is actually important and what actually matters.

It gets more complex than that, I know. But still, people who had families and cared about other people are dead. And we have Americans cheering on the streets. That is no different than Muslims dancing and cheering when the second tower fell. It's disgusting and these people should be ashamed.

Humanity being what it is though.. I'm a naive idealist.

Anonymous Mon May 2 12:42:19 2011 No.1741128

>>1740986

It seems I didn't read your original post well enough. It's quite right to condemn the actions of the populace as they celebrate the deaths of individuals with friends and families.

These tragedies will continue for a long time to come. Humanity as a species will not have a unified culture without paying a steep price in blood. Joining together as one culture is the only thing that will end the slaughter of innocents by armies, and even then men will disagree about anything there can be a disagreement about.

Every era (with a few notable regressions here and there) has moved us closer to the age when we can exist in peace with each other; it will likely get worse as resources become scarce in the coming decades. If we can solve the problems that make one country covet the assets of others we'll put a lot of this bloodshed to rest. In the meantime, people will kill and die for the "greater good" of their nations.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 12:45:19 2011 No.1741132 File: 30 KB, 399x325, political-pictures-sarah-palin-resistence-futile-assimilated-look-a-like.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] There's no such thing as evil. grow up.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 13:01:19 2011 No.1741154 >>1741132 Isn't this exactly what the last few posts have been talking about?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 13:14:19 2011 No.1741160 >>1740682 He founded al-Qaeda as a means to bring Sharia law to the Muslim world. >freedom fighter >Sharia law >freedom >Sharia law Do you understand why your position is stupid?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 13:18:19 2011 No.1741164 >>1741160 >implying I wasn't trolling ever so slightly

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 13:21:19 2011 No.1741169 >>1741164 You would not believe how many times I've heard 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' today. The butthurt is strong in me.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 13:22:19 2011 No.1741171 >justified lol fuck you insect! might makes right.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 13:23:19 2011 No.1741173 >>1741169 Well, you could say he was fighting for his peer's religious freedom in a sense.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 13:36:19 2011 No.1741181 >do you think the killing of another human being can be justified if that human was evil? let me guess, you read Harry Potter? killing humans isn't justifiable because the victim is "evil," it's justifiable because human life has no intrinsic value.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 15:30:19 2011 No.1741284 I somehow doubt that Genghis Khan thought much in terms of "justifiable action", "the value of life" or "evil" when he was conquering the known world.

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>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 15:34:19 2011 No.1741290 Yes. Also, killing Usama makes you guilty of murder so you being murdered is justified.

Anonymous Mon May 2 16:01:19 2011 No.1741337

>>1740682
>implying he wasn't a freedom fighter and a hero to his own people, trying to fend off american imperialism

who are "his people"? He was a rich saudi arab, afghanis (Surprise!) and pakistanis (Double surprise!) are not arabs. The branch of islam he pushed was a variant of redneck qutb nonesense; the taliban were more orthodox sunnis.

Seriously, liberal interpetations of the islamic sphere are ridioclous. History by Dances with Wolves, brought to you by axe body spray.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 16:09:19 2011 No.1741352 Evil is a relative term No one can be defined as evil Therefore no one can be put to death for their actions

>>	jew !!6P/WhzicJTl Mon May 2 16:14:19 2011 No.1741361 File: 36 KB, 323x500, 51jgc2ex5vl_sl500_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1741337 haha, hit the nail right on the head bro

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 16:17:19 2011 No.1741369 >>1741352 >he believes actions to be relative! This person was responsible for the killing of several innocent citizens, that's cold fact.

satago110 Mon May 2 16:18:19 2011 No.1741372

My favorite part of that story was when the Author put the spoiled rich kid in a mansion instead of a cave. It was very apropos, the reader assumed he was toughing it out in a cave, but he wasn't quite ready to sacrifice his comforts as easily he sacrificed his "brothers".

>>	jew !!6P/WhzicJTl Mon May 2 16:20:19 2011 No.1741381 >>1741352 Evil is a relative term Anyone can be defined as Evil Therefore anyone can be put to death or any action whatsoever.

>>	jew !!6P/WhzicJTl Mon May 2 16:21:19 2011 No.1741382 >>1741381 *for any action

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 16:29:19 2011 No.1741404
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It doesn't matter how much of a psychopath he was, you cannot rationally justify why this man had to die.

Giving dogmatic ideas (be they nationalism, religion, revenge) precedence over human life can never be justified, and the crass displays of joy shown by even the leaders of America over the death of a human being repulses me from a country I honestly believed was beginning to mature.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 16:32:19 2011 No.1741411 >>1741404 >404 there is no innate value to human life. Prove me wrong

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 16:36:19 2011 No.1741424 >>1741411 Intrinsically nothing has value except our ability to create value through our interpretations and decisions. Our consciousness gives us value, basically.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 16:44:19 2011 No.1741439 >>1741404 >Implying that there is a single world leader besides those of Hamas who aren't ecstatic Sure is self-righteous bullshit up in here. Stop pretending you're better than everyone else. I'm essentially pacifist and I'm still glad he's gone.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 16:49:19 2011 No.1741450
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>>1741439

I'm not a pacifist.

Sometimes killing is necessary to prevent further suffering. I think NATO should assassinate Gaddafi, for example, because then the war in Libya would come to a much swifter end and many lives would be saved.

The killing of Bin Laden will have no such effect, was not carried out in the way of something sombre and inevitable but as a glorious sacrifice on the alter of America's obsession with itself.

In fact, far from making things worse, by killing him they have made him a martyr and even the CIA admits this will only exacerbate terrorists more.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 16:54:19 2011 No.1741463 >>1741424 >nothing has value except our ability to create value through our interpretations and decisions. sounds like a naturalistic fallacy

Anonymous Mon May 2 17:02:19 2011 No.1741491

>>1741424

While there is no intrinsic moral superiority implied with the successful application of force, the fact remains that those who are most successful in destroying their opponents are the ones who get to establish the resulting hegemony. Changing the opinions and attitudes of others is difficult, often impossible. But it is not necessary to convince someone to agree, or to compromise with them, if simply preventing them from disagreeing will suffice. If no compromise can be reached, as was the case with Bin Laden, the only rational action is to remove him.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:07:19 2011 No.1741506 >>1741491 I agree only if the person in question is actively and aggressively attempting to harm you or others. If no compromise can be reached but neither side is interested in conflict, both can simply ignore the other.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:12:19 2011 No.1741526 An eye for an eye means that everyone will have eye-patches. Sounds great.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 17:20:19 2011 No.1741551

>>1741506

They could have removed him by imprisoning him instead of killing him. My argument is that he did not have to die, and the fucking absurd reaction from the vast majority of Americans reveal the reality that their motives were anything but noble or the result of carefully calculated compromise.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:21:19 2011 No.1741553 I don't think him, particularly, was evil. But i do believe in death as a solution to a problem. If a certain individual will keep causing trouble, arrested, or if the system can't reeducate or isolate him, yeah, kill him.

Anonymous Mon May 2 17:23:19 2011 No.1741560

>>1741506

ah, but you see, one of the sides did have an interest in the conflict. The United States had a vested interest in conflict. Its part of an unspoken social contract between the government and the governed. The governed only consent to giving the government a monopoly of the legitimate use of force on the understanding that the government will then use that force to keep them safe, and, barring that, to retaliate on their behalf. There are only two ways to provide this security. the obvious one is by restricting the liberties enjoyed by the governed. The other method is to promise anyone that would threaten the governed with overwhelming, excessive force, applied with extreme prejudice.

Personally, I resent the increased surveillance and travel restrictions placed upon the American people in the name of security. I would much rather those resources be used to ensure that anyone who would earnestly seek harm upon my fellow citizens is erased from existence in the most sickening ways imaginable, with no regard to the collateral damage should they attempt to hide among the crowds.

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 17:27:19 2011 No.1741571 File: 40 KB, 400x462, abe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1741463 Not so fast, d&e. There is a difference between invented meaning which gives us something to struggle for and objective meaning.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:29:19 2011 No.1741578 >>1741381 You are not a good jew.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:30:19 2011 No.1741583 >>1741553 >But i do believe in death as a solution to a problem. If a certain individual will keep causing trouble, arrested, or if the system can't reeducate or isolate him, yeah, kill him. stalin dixit.

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 17:32:19 2011 No.1741591 File: 389 KB, 159x124, ralph.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1741560 So you believe that instilling fear in people to stop them committing crimes is more important than human life itself?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:35:19 2011 No.1741601 >>1741591 it's all about quantity. yes, you must, for instance, prevent the collapse of a country in civil war at all costs because diversity breeds contempt and adversity.

Anonymous Mon May 2 17:35:19 2011 No.1741606

>>1741551

Bin Laden signed his own death warrant when he claimed responsibility for attacks on US soil. he has nobody to blame but himself.

also, cutting the pretense for a moment, but you're a dipshit if you expected anything less than public celebration at bin laden's death, and completely divorced from reality if you managed, even for a moment, to kid yourself into the possibility of any other outcome to the point where you are even capable of feigning the self righteous indignation that you are currently wallowing in.

in a way, I agree with you. it was wrong to celebrate his death. but only because in celebrating a man's death, his enemies lend grudging respect to him as he lived. millions of people die unknown, unloved, and unmourned. in life they meant nothing, in death, nothing. Here was a man whose death made an entire nation sing out in joy. you can say many things about that, but you cannot argue that there was a lack of respect.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 17:37:19 2011 No.1741615 >>1741571 what does that have to do with a naturalistic fallacy truman

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:38:19 2011 No.1741619 >>1741606 >when he claimed responsibility for attacks but he didn't. you have been indoctrinated.

Anonymous Mon May 2 17:44:19 2011 No.1741638

I'm actually listening to two 15 year old girls at a coffee shop debate the morality of the subject right now. "I think we should have tortured him first."
I don't think they fully understand the gravity of what happened. I mean, we just killed the man who's actions were responsible for dictating American Foreign Policy for the past 10 years.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:45:19 2011 No.1741640 >>1741619 >>1741619 ah, but he did. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=652383n

Anonymous Mon May 2 17:47:19 2011 No.1741652
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I didn't realize people still cared what Osama was up to, seeing as he's just been hanging out for the past ten years.

But hey, now that he's dead, now a nerdy vegan who has never killed a single person can take his rightful place as the second most-wanted terrorist by the FBI.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 17:49:19 2011 No.1741662
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>>1741601

And you think civilisation would collapse if people weren't afraid of execution? There are others ways of preventing crime than inflicting fear, but I suppose as someone with as many prejudices about diversity wouldn't be able to understand that.

I bet you're American, too.

>>1741606

He may have signed his own death warrant, but the America is wrong for even having a death warrant for him to sign.

In a way I am indifferent to the reaction to the reaction. What concerns me is America's complete disregard for the value of human life. I'm not sure why Americans are like this. Maybe it's due to your vacuous history, your obsession with collectivist pop culture, your religious fervour or your ultra capitalist culture. Whatever leads to your romanticised and absolutist perceptions of reality, the fact is that it's ultimately corrosive to your self styled image of America being the 'land of the free'.

There were similar bombings in London and there has been no such reaction over here. Like I've said before, patriotic ecstasy over the killing of a human being doesn't sit well with us over here. We don't get engulfed in the tasteless sea of nationalism as easily as you do.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:49:19 2011 No.1741664 there is no such thing as evil, only if you can tell me what good is

Anonymous Mon May 2 17:50:19 2011 No.1741666

>>1741638
We should give him a medal
But really, if the kill wasn't necessary, there was no point to it. And if it was, do it humanely.
And i don't mean necessary as in "we can't capture him alive", but that leaving him alive could only stir more problems

Anonymous Mon May 2 17:50:19 2011 No.1741668

>>1741638

if anything, they understand the gravity more than you. it would be entirely reasonable to assume that 9/11 is one of their earliest distinct memories. for you, Osama dictated US foreign policy for about 10 years. for them, Osama dictated US foreign policy up until just now. they don't have a pre-9/11 frame of reference.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 17:53:19 2011 No.1741672 >>1741652 Is there a big difference between first and second place on this list? Like, they put his picture at the top of the others or something?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 18:01:19 2011 No.1741687 >>1741672 Well, you would assume someone in the top ten of an FBI's most wanted list is wanted more than the guy whose rank is around 38th or something.

Anonymous Mon May 2 18:07:19 2011 No.1741693

>>1741662

the bombings in london killed less than 10% what the WTC attacks did.

and as for a "complete disregard for human life," Americans happen to hold human life in very high regard. Maybe not generally. but American lives are held in very high regard. So much so, that Americans feel the need to punish those responsible for taking American Lives. So much so, that hundreds of thousands of Americans willingly volunteer to risk their own lives in order to hunt down those responsible for taking American lives.

You seem to mistake a disregard for human life with a willingness to take it.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 18:07:19 2011 No.1741694
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>>1741615

Because I wasn't implying that our natural ability to invent meaning gave our lives objective value but rather because we are free to create and define our own subjective universe we become a unique and thus extremely precious part of existence.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 18:12:19 2011 No.1741701 >>1741687 Yeah, but just from the first to the second. Anyways, they guy will probably feel diminished considering his predecessor.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 18:12:19 2011 No.1741703
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>>1741693

>You seem to mistake a disregard for human life with a willingness to take it.

The two are intimately linked.

And you seem to be assuming that be executing people you are somehow protecting human life.

Really you are placing the absolutist idea of vengeance above human life, and that the value of someone's life someone's life is relative to how much respect you have for them personally.

Anonymous Mon May 2 18:14:19 2011 No.1741710

>>1741694
>I wasn't implying that our natural ability to invent meaning gave our lives objective value
>but rather because we are free to create and define our own subjective universe we become a unique and thus extremely precious part of existence.

Our natural ability to create meaning doesn't assign objective value, but, it does... ?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 18:15:19 2011 No.1741711 >>1741694 the ability to create and define a subjective world view has no inherent value beyond the results that are achieved through that world view. You aren't precious just because you are born with normally functioning human faculties.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 18:23:19 2011 No.1741726 >>1741711 You negate value where there can be none, "objective value" is meaningless. A personal worldview necessarily has value because a person cannot form his world without imposing his will upon it.

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 18:26:19 2011 No.1741730 >>1741726 This, effectively. There is a difference between objective value and necessary subjective value.

Anonymous Mon May 2 18:29:19 2011 No.1741736

>>1741703

you'd be surprised, actually. Most people aren't psychopaths, even in the Great Satan. Most people (>95%) have a natural appreciation for human life. they celebrate not because they fail to understand the significance of extinguishing Bin Laden's life, but because they understand it very intimately. by killing him, he was deprived of perhaps the only thing a human being can claim full ownership of. his life.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 18:39:19 2011 No.1741743
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>>1741736

I'm not suggesting that most people are psychopaths.

I don't understand how you can be happy about terminating a man's life unless you stop seeing him as a man and as an object of evil.

You are trying to make it sound as if by killing him you were exacting some justice or some noble punishment by describing his life as something he owned rather than was.

He is dead now and I hope his blood makes you nauseous enough to realise that trivialising human life is not something which can ever be justified.

Anonymous Mon May 2 18:40:19 2011 No.1741744

>>1741730

I am saying that you cannot define anything "subjective" as inherently precious, because in doing so, it becomes an absolute, therefore, in a sense, objective. if there is no room to argue over whether something is precious or not, then it isn't a subjective observation. if you do concede that it is subjective, you're simply stating your own opinion. by refusing to then modify this subjective value based on additional observations of how a person uses their life, you surrender ownership over said opinion to an ideal not based on reality and it becomes devoid of any meaning. if something is devoid of any objective value, then subjective value can be derived only from results, not potential.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 18:50:19 2011 No.1741756 >>1741744 I make no mention of subjectivity or objectivity because personal value could be termed as either. The distinction, applied here, only muddies the water.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 18:51:19 2011 No.1741757
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>>1741744

Accepting that the world is objectively meaningless means accepting that the world is fundamentally void of absolutes and thus we are free.

This allows you to invent a purpose to create happiness in your life while simultaneously acknowledging the objective absurdity of our existence.

This is how the individual typifies a universe which can be regarded as extremely valuable, not to society as you demand but to the individual himself.

Anonymous Mon May 2 19:00:19 2011 No.1741769

>>1741743

I see him as a man. He is not an object of evil, but he is someone that explicitly and implicitly threatened harm upon me simply on the basis of the region I lived in, not knowing or caring whether I in fact existed. I never sought his attention, and I honestly wish that I had never been forced to learn of his existence. It was with a sense of joy and relief that I learned of his death, because however remote the possibility was, he did express a clear intent to harm me. I see nothing wrong with that.

>>	♥ !Rrxa7zePwI Mon May 2 19:06:19 2011 No.1741772 this thin subject/object thing is old for 300 years already.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 19:07:19 2011 No.1741773 >>1741769 >I see nothing wrong with that. That is because you are a barbaric pussy.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 19:10:19 2011 No.1741777
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>>1741769

>i see nothing wrong with that.

I do because it shows that you are willing to encourage killing to remove a negligible threat to your security and that you are ignorant of the fact that arresting him would have eliminated his threat to you just as much as killing him without having to commit the terrible act of ending his life, which leads me to think you don't see the termination of his life as a terrible thing and thus that human life is not the most valuable thing in the universe.

Anonymous Mon May 2 19:18:19 2011 No.1741784

>>1741757

however, by focusing solely on the value of the individual to that extreme, you ignore not just the value of society as a whole but the value of other individuals. if that individual endangers other individuals for his own gain, his value as a human being necessarily takes a lower precedence below his victims. fear of retribution, and retribution delivered are necessary to deter predatory behavior, and to remove from society those people that express it. The consideration due to one individual cannot be had at the expense of others.

the considerations due to the individual are often used to trample the considerations due to society. likewise, the considerations due to society are used to trample the considerations due to the individual. however, this is a false dichotomy. society is not some amorphous entity, it is a collection of individuals. the proper role of society is to ensure that no one individual is able to harm the other individuals living in that society. the proper role of society is to ensure that individuals are able to each pursue their own vision without having to worry about being harmed for it. various societies approach this differently, and many have failed outright to do this, but in all societies, the same basic vision remains.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 19:23:19 2011 No.1741789 File: 19 KB, 250x250, 1303424962795.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1741784 >not refuting the autonomy of individual value

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 19:25:19 2011 No.1741791 >>1741773 That is a pretty crazy oxymoron.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 19:26:19 2011 No.1741793

>>1741784

>The consideration due to one individual cannot be had at the expense of others.

Of course not, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the imposing individual must be eradicated. He maintains his humanity even after the conflict.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 19:28:19 2011 No.1741794 >>1741791 He's a barbarian because he wants to kill people for slight offenses and a pussy because the slight offense is a threat against his life that has a very small chance of being acted upon.

Anonymous Mon May 2 19:35:19 2011 No.1741805

>>1741777

I am aware that arresting him would have achieved the same ends. I probably would have felt similarly had he simply been arrested. However, while I do not know what happened when his compound was raided, I do know enough to know that nearby witnesses would be extremely unlikely to describe hearing a "firefight" if the rounds exchanged were limited to those two that impacted his head. in the absence of more detailed information, I am satisfied to know that he his simply gone without dwelling much on the circumstances that surrounded his death.

I'm not actually doing to disagree with you on the rest, because even if you phrased it in such a way so as to mock me, your basic assumptions are correct. I do not see human life as the most valuable thing in the universe.

Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 19:47:19 2011 No.1741819

>>1741694
>Because I wasn't implying that our natural ability to invent meaning gave our lives objective value but rather because we are free to create and define our own subjective universe we become a unique and thus extremely precious part of existence.
I Like how you think this has anything to do with objectivity, it could be subjective value for all I care truman.
Again, we are still looking at a naturalistic fallacy because all of this
>because we are free to create and define our own subjective universe we become a unique and thus extremely precious part of existence.
is a jump from a naturalistic viewpoint, to intrinsic value, what you call "an extremely precious part of existence" (subjective or not), unless you deny that you saying precious is a statement of inherent value, in which case you concede that there is no inherent value. Unless you can show me some, subjective or not herpaderp go to college already and get over this shit, that does not fall prey to such a naturalistic fallacy.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 19:50:19 2011 No.1741828

>>1741805

>I am satisfied to know that he his simply gone

I am similarly glad that he is no longer able to commit further atrocities, however we should not strip him of his worth as a human being no matter how many people he has killed or would like to kill. Reducing him to an object you wish would just 'disappear' reveals your contempt for the value of human life which you later go on to proclaim.

What do you value above human life, may I ask?

Anonymous Mon May 2 19:56:19 2011 No.1741839

I attribute evilness to negativity and goodness to positivity. Also, death is a negative entity because it creates a void (not to be confused with an absence).

-1 x -1 = 1

Ergo an evil or negative (being) can be made good or positive (being) by the process of death.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 20:01:19 2011 No.1741848
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>>1741819

I maintain that nature is being devoid of absolutes yet I assert that this gives us the freedom to invent for ourselves, however erratically, an ironic (not intrinsic) value from which you can derive happiness.

Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 20:10:19 2011 No.1741865
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>>1741848
>this gives us the freedom to invent for ourselves, however erratically, an ironic (not intrinsic) value from which you can derive happiness.
Okay, we have a concession of n intrinsic value. But you are still open to a naturalistic fallacy trumang, because what you present to me is facts, or whatever behaviour that constitutes the value you are advocating, and you have yet to establish how we can bridge the gap between the facts and what you want to say is the value.

You're sweating bullets here Truman I can tell
and it's only going to get worse

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 20:18:19 2011 No.1741883 >>1741865 >internet forum post >sweating bullets shit gets real on the daily, on /lit/ you either go hard or go home

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 20:29:19 2011 No.1741906
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>>1741865

>bridge the gap between the facts and what you want to say is the value.

I already did this when I explained that value is created for the individual who can create transient meaning to make the individual happy and free without making a leap of faith and believing that the objective world has some intrinsic purpose and without having to kill themselves.

Essentially it's valuable for allowing us to struggle against death thus makes life worth living.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 20:35:19 2011 No.1741917 The terrorist religion of ISLAM is OVER. AMERICA has WON. Fuck you Muslims. You have no one to lead you now.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 20:41:19 2011 No.1741929 >>1741906 >value is created for the individual Oh now trufax shame on you, you are simply assuming what has to be proven! You would have to tell me how what is created is actually a value.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 20:58:19 2011 No.1741963

>>1741929

i did tell you

it's important because it allows us to be conscious of reality and not have the urge to kill ourselves and thus makes life worth living.

This isn't a mere naturalistic fallacy, im not advocating that things which give us euphoria should be said to possess intrinsic good or whatever.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:00:19 2011 No.1741964 >>1741839 This actually makes as much sense as most ethical theories

Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 21:09:19 2011 No.1741985

>>1741963
>i did tell you

But none of these explanations

>we are free to create and define our own subjective universe we become a unique and thus extremely precious part of existence

>nature is being devoid of absolutes yet I assert that this gives us the freedom to invent for ourselves, however erratically, an ironic (not intrinsic) value from which you can derive happiness.

>value is created for the individual who can create transient meaning to make the individual happy and free without making a leap of faith and believing that the objective world has some intrinsic purpose and without having to kill themselves.

succeed in legitimately demonstrating through argument a value, or even what should be, arising from matters of fact. You have simply given me examples what is reducible, unless proven otherwise (your task), to matters of fact.

>it's important because it allows us to be conscious of reality and not have the urge to kill ourselves and thus makes life worth living.
What makes being conscious of reality, not having the urge to kill ourselves, etc valuable?

>im not advocating that things which give us euphoria should be said to possess intrinsic good or whatever.
No, but you have presented a number of examples which purportedly demonstrate a value arising from matters of fact, which I have demonstrated are derived from either assuming what has to be proven, or what actually turn out to be more matters of fact.

Anonymous Mon May 2 21:12:19 2011 No.1741995

>>1741839

that is daft. by your logic, people that lead good lives become evil with their death. unless you are trying to argue that the death of an evil person is a good event, and the death of a good person is a bad event.

>>1741828

Death and Conflict are essential parts of existence, coequal with life. Without death, life has no meaning. Without conflict, there is no opportunity for any sort of self discovery. A world without death and conflict is death itself. Unlike you, I do not see death or conflict as things to be abhorred, but things that are as essential to existence as life is. in celebrating someone's death, you are forced to acknowledge that they were once alive.

There were people that have been stripped of their human worth. their deaths were not celebrated. they were killed quietly, and the records of their existence were destroyed. That is the dehumanization that you refer to. Not this.

I reject your basic premise that by celebrating someones death, you strip their life of value. That the celebration may be done for reasons of animosity is besides the point. It does not alter the fact that by celebrating a person's death, it is impossible to strip the value from his life. Rather, it is a way to render final appraisal on that life. That the appraisal may be vindictive and unflattering makes it no less valid.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 21:14:19 2011 No.1742004 >>1741995 >I reject your basic premise Wow this guy is a real superstar debater

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:15:19 2011 No.1742006 not for simply the sake of being evil or having committed evil acts. execution should only be used as a means of prevention of future acts.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 21:19:19 2011 No.1742019

>What makes being conscious of reality, not having the urge to kill ourselves, etc valuable?

I'm not arguing that being conscious of reality is a good thing in itself, i'm arguing that being able to enjoy being conscious it is a good thing for the individual because it allows us to be truly free and appreciative of life etc, thus making life a worthwhile experience.

Anonymous Mon May 2 21:24:19 2011 No.1742035
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EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wut?

Let's not get prissy about it, we can't really offer any reproach to the people who killed Bin Laden, but we can offer reproach to the people who are parading through the streets jubilantly celebrating the fact that someone was shot in the head. That is an improper reaction which exhibits the cringeworthy lack of dignity and propriety common to American people.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:28:19 2011 No.1742041 >>1742035 Yeah except that obama bin laden was a terrorist that killed millions of people

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:29:19 2011 No.1742042 >>1741181 /thread

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 21:31:19 2011 No.1742044

>>1741995

>A world without death and conflict is death itself.

I'm not advocating a world without death, I'm advocating for a world with less of it. Both conflict and death are inevitable and will always be beyond human subjugation. But this does not mean that we should inflict it any more than we really have to, and I'm sorry but imprisoning people does exactly the same job as executing them and renders execution unnecessary and gruesomely wasteful.

Anonymous Mon May 2 21:32:19 2011 No.1742046

>>1742041
"except" implies that you're contradicting something I said. But I can't quite see what it is. Unless you're suggesting that it is proper to scream and woop about that fact that somebody was shot in the head if that person was a mass murderer. I would say that is in improper and undignified reaction no matter who the person was.
By the way, millions of people? Check your facts.

Anonymous Mon May 2 21:45:19 2011 No.1742062

when he was kneeled to the ground and the gun held to him american operators specifically aake him if he wanted to surrender. he said no and was subsequently shot in the chest and then the head.

his actions funded the deaths of 3000 people and was strong enough to be willing to die for his cause. None of you ever stop to think that maybe he wanted to die because all of you consider inconcievable to feel that strongly about something. we offered he declined that simple.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:49:19 2011 No.1742066 >>1742062 >implying Osama killed ONLY 3000 people You really don't know much about the muslims' leader do you?

Anonymous Mon May 2 21:49:19 2011 No.1742067

Sadly war is one of the only ways we have to regulate our population now, we have no natural predators and disease is becoming weaker with the advent of modern medicines, its so sad but people have to be killed to help the entire biospere not be overrun and raped by our species like it already is being.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Mon May 2 21:51:19 2011 No.1742071

>>1742062

>when he was kneeled to the ground and the gun held to him american operators specifically aake him if he wanted to surrender. he said no and was subsequently shot in the chest and then the head.

sauce please.

Of course I don't consider it an impossibility that someone could want to die for what they believe him. I do not understand why the US Military would care about the wishes of America's most wanted man for 10 years and why his death should be celebrated in the way that it has been.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:51:19 2011 No.1742072 >>1742066 talking only about 9/11. the main reason we entered the war and people hate him, besides 3000 is big enough to make the point

Anonymous Mon May 2 21:51:19 2011 No.1742073

>>1742044

the base annual cost of keeping a person in prison in the united states is about $26,000
imprisoning Osama Bin Laden would probably cost ten or even 100 times that per year.
2 rounds of M855 5.56x45 NATO costs $1.60.

we've spend enough goddamn money on that piece of shit already. Maybe you can't put a price on human life, but in his case, I'd say that $1.60 sounds just about right.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:51:19 2011 No.1742074 >>1742066 > muslims' leader You don't know much about muslims. Or apostrophes. GTFO dicktits. There's no excuse for that level of ignorance.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:56:19 2011 No.1742079 >>1742074 I AM NOT TRYING TO START A FIGHT HERE is /lit/ all this serious about grammar? i guess i could see why but...

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 21:56:19 2011 No.1742080 >>1742074 >butthurt liberal We couldn't have won this war if we'd given in to hippy dippy policies of making "peace" with and "understanding" these savages

Anonymous Mon May 2 22:02:19 2011 No.1742084

>>1742080
What are you talking about? I was just criticising this idot for calling Bin Laden 'the muslims leader'. Which is a completely insane and erroneous statement. That fact that you construed that mean I was a hippy liberal who wanted to make peace with terrorists is the typical reaction of extremists like you. It is tragic that 1000s were killed in 9/11 but it is more tragic that the event spawned a slew of racist little cunthole nutjobs like you.

Anonymous Mon May 2 22:03:19 2011 No.1742086

Osama Bin Laden

Here is a man who tortured hundreds of millions of innocent people and murdered shit loads more

Yet for years left wing Americans have viewed these people, Bin Laden's people, as beleaguered freedom fighters fighting for their freedom against the eeevil imperialist west. The fact is, these people got their news from biased sources like CNN and islamicist networks like Al Jazeera.

So you had Americans being fed this kind of propaganda, lies to make them believe what we were doing in Afghanistan and Iraq was wrong. And yet the war on terror was defending us from Islamofascism. From us having to read the Koran and pray to Mecca. Freedom from our women having to be covered and killed if they got raped or had sex. That is the kind of tyranny Osama and his terrorist cronies wanted for America, and it's about damn time we, Americans, protected our freedom from people who wanted to rape it up the ass.

Enjoy having a hot iron stuck up your ass in Hell, Bin Laden. You and your people will not be missed.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 22:04:19 2011 No.1742087 i've been reading too much camus to have a non-obnoxious answer. so i'll just say, sure why not.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 22:11:19 2011 No.1742094 >>1742086 i don't think anyone but severely mentally ill crazies thinks of terrorists as 'freedom fighters'

Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 22:17:19 2011 No.1742100

>>1742019
>I'm not arguing that being conscious of reality is a good thing in itself,
never said you were, just that such a thing was valuable

>we enjoy being conscious because it allows us to be truly free and appreciative of life
Besides neither of those things necessarily following, why are either of these things good

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 22:20:19 2011 No.1742103 is this whole thread just two dudes arguing?

>>	The connection was reset Anonymous Mon May 2 22:21:19 2011 No.1742104 No one in this thread is influencing anyone. Hav a nice day.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Mon May 2 22:25:19 2011 No.1742109 >>1742104 Actually I think Truman will have learnt a thing or two

>>	Anonymous Mon May 2 22:28:19 2011 No.1742114 >>1742109 Silence, sentient anus.

Anonymous Tue May 3 01:08:19 2011 No.1742444

>>1742109

Truman ain't going to learn shit because all of his arguments and rhetoric are emotion based rather than logic based. He was hoping his sophistry would be enough to cover up the fact that he got called out over having a stick up his ass over some good old fashioned Schadenfreude

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Tue May 3 01:14:19 2011 No.1742459 >>1742444 he'll learn to be a better rhetorician, which is just as good in many cases

Anonymous Tue May 3 01:16:19 2011 No.1742464

So, morality doesn't exist and there is no justifiable "good" to come from life outside of subjective satisfaction and pleasure.

Therefore, we should kill each other without reason and simply not care about anyone, because nihilism.

Come back when you idiots have done more than skim through Nietzsche, stop listening to black metal and are older than 14.

Anonymous Tue May 3 01:31:19 2011 No.1742487

>>1742464

the irony to this post is that the person who tried to argue against morality on a scale of "good" and "evil" was also the person who was most invested in the value of human life. the problem is, he's a dangerous idiot, just eloquent enough that stupid people might mistake his large vocabulary for any significant thought processes.

>>1742073

also, enjoy some non subjective good in the form of a cost-benefit analysis. because numbers are always more persuasive than words.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 01:45:19 2011 No.1742506 I ain't readin' this shitstorm. Quick poll, /lit/. Do you consider "good" a quality of outcomes or moral agents?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 01:51:19 2011 No.1742511 >>1742506 quality of outcome. i've studied enough military history to realize that moral agents the most dangerous of all things.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 01:53:19 2011 No.1742516 He killed innocent people. He had no problem with any ethical dilemmas over the intrinsic value of a human life. Why should we?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 01:54:19 2011 No.1742522 >So, morality doesn't exist >Therefore, we should kill each other Cool non-sequitur, bro.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 01:57:19 2011 No.1742527 >>1742516 because a trip faggot named after a real faggot wants to feel a sense of moral superiority over the one demographic everyone on the internet is apparently allowed to hate without any of the consequences normally afforded to bigotry

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 02:01:19 2011 No.1742533 >>1740726 my words exactly someone who has the intent and kills as many people as he did does not deserve their life.

Anonymous Tue May 3 02:04:19 2011 No.1742538

>>1742511
>i've studied enough military history to realize that moral agents the most dangerous of all things.

I can't make sense of this. When I say "moral agents" I just mean people who make act on moral decisions. I was rephrasing the thread's opening post in a way that didn't necessarily invite conversation about Bin Laden.

See, I'm tired of the moral relativity conversation. It doesn't change the way I act, and it's boring to talk about at this point. I'm more interested in other topics.
For one, morality is discussed in two ways that seem mutually exclusive. Do we seek to achieve "good" states for the world, or "goodness" of activity on the part of ourselves and others. When the two come in conflict, which should we prefer?

Anonymous Tue May 3 02:18:19 2011 No.1742560

>>1742538

I understand completely what you meant by "moral agents."

I still think that they are one of, if not the most dangerous thing out there. people can do things out of a sense of moral imperative that they would never consider doing out of cruelty.

a little common sense and the golden rule are all anyone ever needs, just treat others as you wish to be treated, and you don't really need to worry about whether what you are doing is "right" or "wrong"

Anonymous Tue May 3 02:37:19 2011 No.1742570

>>1742560
No, I mean if anyone is a moral agent, everyone is. A moral agent is not someone who does something (right or wrong) in the name of morality. A moral agent is a person, making decisions, in a world with some moral standard of behavior.
For example, let's hypothesize a world where there is some verifiable moral prohibition against spitting on sidewalks, and three people: Joe, Steve and Bill. Now, Joe believes that spitting on sidewalks is wrong, Steve that it is a moral requirement, and Bill doesn't know for sure. None of that matters, though, because should any of them choose to spit on the sidewalk, there is moral weight to that decision. They are all moral agents, taking courses of action. It's still wrong if Bill spits, even though he doesn't realize it. His agency is his ability to choose, in spite of his lack of knowledge, a moral or immoral activity.
Now we can add (or replace sidewalk-spitting with) the golden rule. There is a moral prohibition against doing anything that you don't want others to do to you, after all, or else there's no reason to equate "dangerous" with "bad", as you seem to. Now Joe and Steve are taking opposite stands on whatever issue and Bill's doing what seems best at the time. Now, you can say none of them are wrong or right, but like I said, that's boring, so let's pretend one course of action is a good one. All of these people are agents, and each is equally responsible for his actions in spite of his circumstances.

Tl;dr: if you take the golden rule as a guide for your actions, you pretty much accept that morality is a quality of actors, against which they can be judged, rather than of outcomes, which can be striven for independent of the individual activities of the involved parties.

I'm sorry to post and dash, but I have to sleep. I'll leave the tab up until morning.

Anonymous Tue May 3 02:44:19 2011 No.1742581

>>1742570
Sorry, another way to summarize the dichotomy would be to ask which we seek to achieve:
A world where no one spits on sidewalks, or a world where there is no spit on the sidewalk. It seems like a semantic distinction, but it gets pretty hairy when you get into the particulars.

Okay, actually going to sleep now :3

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 03:21:19 2011 No.1742621 File: 144 KB, 331x300, 1300329201488.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1742570 this is like the first well thought out thing i've ever read on 4chan and i don't even really agree with it.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 03:26:19 2011 No.1742627 File: 38 KB, 350x525, judge-dredd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1742516 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glUf4PQ-vuU&feature=related

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 03:59:22 2011 No.1742645 [DELETED]

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>>1742100

It's good because it allows us to hold onto our integrity in the face of the absurd, and integrity / courage is the only moral value.

I'm sorry for my poorly constructed rhetoric, I've never studied philosophy outside of personal reading and the debating society in my school was so trite I couldn't bring myself to join it.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 04:08:19 2011 No.1742663
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>>1742100

It's good because it allows us to hold onto our integrity in the face of the absurd, and integrity / courage is the only moral value.

I'm sorry for my poorly constructed rhetoric, I've never studied philosophy outside of personal reading and the debating society in my school was so trite I couldn't bring myself to join it.

>>	Truman Capote !n6MOfB0m6A Tue May 3 04:21:11 2011 No.1742675 testing

>>	Truman Capote !!f+P5WAuZ+gm Tue May 3 04:22:05 2011 No.1742677 testing2

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 04:27:19 2011 No.1742688 File: 104 KB, 860x434, Screen shot 2011-05-03 at 09.26.12.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1742677 >>1742682 >>1742675 nice try, fag.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 05:28:19 2011 No.1742790 I don't believe killing a human being needs any justification.

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 05:30:19 2011 No.1742795 >>1742790 then why don't you kill yourself? (serious question)

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 05:56:19 2011 No.1742810 i need the tool to weed out tripfags

>>	Brownbear !Wfn4kkpLag!!fEGZw8wphGR Tue May 3 06:14:19 2011 No.1742828 File: 181 KB, 1000x1000, filter.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1742810 >>1742810 there ya go!

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 06:15:19 2011 No.1742829 >>1742795 reason and justification are not the same.

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 06:30:19 2011 No.1742836 >>1742829 well if you don't value human life then why do you value your own? For what reason haven't you killed yourself?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 06:45:19 2011 No.1742840 >>1742836 I'm not that guy, but not valuing something doesn't exactly imply that you kill it. For example, I don't value kittens, yet I've only thrown placed twelve in paper bags and thrown them in rivers to drown so far this year ^_____^

>>	Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 06:52:19 2011 No.1742846 >>1742840 I'm not suggesting that you kill other living things, but if the experience of life is fundamentally useless to you then why persist living?

Anonymous Tue May 3 07:01:19 2011 No.1742852

>>1742846
I guess because the other guy probably decided that life is valueless through a purely cognitive process. Yet his actions are influenced by the things he doesn't include in that equation, like self-esteem, feelings, habits.

I mean for me, I can't scientifically justify why a human life is objectively better than an animal a plant or a rock - so I can't conclude that any of them are. BUT some of those things make me feel worse when I'm holding a hammer over them because of conditioning or instinctive responses or empathy or whatever, so if I have to choose, I'll break the rock.

I guess in sum, humans (thankfully) are not driven merely by their mental math.

Anonymous Tue May 3 07:20:19 2011 No.1742858

Personally, I don't think killing anyone can be justified, because people can change. A person might be evil, but there still remains the chance that they could become good, and by killing them you condemn them to be evil. Of course, if keeping an evil person alive in the hope of that change, leads to the death and suffering of others, you have to question what's morally right.
Save one, or save many.

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 07:29:19 2011 No.1742861
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>>1742852

I would disagree with you and say that although the universe is meaningless our ability to invent subjective purpose and meaning makes living a worthwhile endeavour and the lives of others valuable to the individual. This is why collectivism is so appalling to me.

Of course d&e comes along and dismantles this by saying I cannot call something valuable just because it stops me from killing myself. And I would agree with him, it's an ultimately futile endeavour but without it we cannot say to have maintained our integrity and courage in the face of absurdity.

>>1742858

Psychopaths will never change, but this doesn't mean they should be executed if there are other more human options available. They are still capable of conscious thought, regardless of how repulsive those thoughts may seem to us.

And anyway, you could study them and increase our understanding of psychopathy and personality disorders.

Anonymous Tue May 3 07:39:19 2011 No.1742867

>>1742861
I'm guessing from your post that we share similar view points, but each of us is defining value differently.

I agree that human life has value when you tack on the subjective qualifier "to the individual". But when deciding "value" as some sort of inherent trait to the universe (which is how I was using the term, and how a lot of people try argue it) I say we're valueless.

In conclusion: existentialism hurr

Anonymous Tue May 3 07:44:19 2011 No.1742872

>>1742867
*Just thought I might tack on: as a psychology grad student (and also someone hailing from a weird culture midway between collectivism and individualism): when it comes to collectivism there's often a tinge of the grass is greener. Those societies have their problems too.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 07:47:19 2011 No.1742874 Humans place entirely too much value on the lives and importance of humans. You never see a fiddler crab bandy about such flaccid pooproots.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 07:52:19 2011 No.1742881 >>1742874 Yeh, but Fiddler crabs didn't event pornography nor getting drunk while showering. Though I suppose they don't wear rubbers either. So.... even?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 07:53:19 2011 No.1742883 So then, shall we create beauty and love to conquer absurdity and condemn all else as being of lesser value?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 07:55:19 2011 No.1742884 >>1742881 Gadzooks, when framed in such a way the logic is indomitable,as I suspect your drunken rubber testicles may also be. Curse you!!!

Anonymous Tue May 3 09:04:19 2011 No.1742933

>the killing of another human being can be justified if that human was evil

Who's evil? You consider your ennemy as evil, so does he...

Don't try to justify killings, fights are all ruled by the balance of power. When you're at war, people get killed that's all: sad but true.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Tue May 3 10:59:19 2011 No.1743022 >>1742663 >hold onto our integrity in the face of the absurd what's good about these things? >integrity / courage is the only moral value. uh oh, looks like we're back at that pesky naturalistic fallacy!

Insinuates g ODs Tue May 3 11:07:19 2011 No.1743032

I think that NOT wanting to murder other people in order to consume their flesh is unnatural. Why do we then have enzymes to eat other humans? Why do we have canines to cut all the proteins of other humans?

The religionisticals are bound to morals, this gives an excellent opportunity to kill them all and eat their offspring. Free food for a...

>>	None !KPok7x0csI Tue May 3 11:08:19 2011 No.1743033 >>1743032 hi look > >>1743018

Anonymous Tue May 3 14:35:19 2011 No.1743337

>>1742795
No reason to, no motivation to.

No one has to justify their actions. Legally, maybe, but not morally. People do shit, random shit, shit that they say they'd never do or that you wouldn't expect from them. If you come into life thinking that everything people do has to have some sort of justification, you're going to end up a dick.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 14:42:19 2011 No.1743350 Because of prion diseases. Cannibalism as a trend tends to dig some nasty holes in your brain. Like incest, it's not 100% chance to give you a freakbaby or disease you, but it adds up over time.

>>	Insinuates gODS Tue May 3 14:45:19 2011 No.1743355 >>1743350 >Cannibalism as a trend tends to dig some nasty holes in your brain I think you read to much moralisism, which actually digs a real hole in your brain.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 14:49:19 2011 No.1743365 >>1743355 No, biology. Literal holes in your brain.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 14:52:19 2011 No.1743369 >>1740721 Challenge accepted.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 14:59:19 2011 No.1743385 >>1743369 >posting on 4chan >posting on facebook >calls it a challenge Go do something about it. Get ahold of some lawyers (serious ones)

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 17:02:19 2011 No.1743630
File: 31 KB, 443x345, satanic_ritual.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1743022

Integrity is necessary for the creation of personal meaning in spite of the ultimate futility of doing so.

I am not suggesting these things are objectively good, but that they are necessary for the human mind to simultaneously accept truth and still appreciate life as something worthwhile. I created this small metaphorical story in the shower this morning:

Three men are going to be executed on a rainy day in Nazi occupied France; a Priest, a Patriot and an Absurdist. They are all permitted to have one last request they are shot.

The Priest asks for a bible so that he may die praising God. The Nazi officers agree and shoot a bullet into his heart through the bible he had held to his quivering chest.

The Patriot asks for a blindfold so that he may pretend to be somewhere else. The officers agree and shoot a bullet into his brain through the flag which he had wrapped around his shaven head.

The Absurdist asks if they Nazi officers can wait until the rain stops, because he doesn't want to get his clothes wet. The officers agree and shoot a bullet into his eyes which were gazing apathetically into the face of his executioner through the newly fresh air.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 3 17:13:19 2011 No.1743650 killing killers is still killing but killing is just killing and it just happens

Truman Capote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue May 3 17:23:19 2011 No.1743677
File: 69 KB, 397x600, chesterton.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1743650
>>1743650

>killing is just killing it just happens

This is the kind of pathetic, fatalistic opinions of people who surrender to absurdity.

America has gone the other direction but comes with the same results. They cannot distinguish what is inside their minds from reality and thus we get this tasteless objective absolutism and addiction to dehumanisation.

They are just as bad as you.

>>	Insinuations gODS Tue May 3 17:26:19 2011 No.1743682 >>1743677 >tasteless I'm the one in here that gives the verdict on breaches of taste. Not you.

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/lit/ - Literature