/int-lit/ - International Literature and Language Learning Thread

[Anonymous No.17360845]

"Building a new General" Edition.
For any one interested in reading/learning and discussing non-translated literature. Doesn't matter if you're a native speaker or not.

Taking suggestions and critics for list in pic related.
More languages and recommendations are welcome!

Previous Thread: >>17344315

How do I start learning a new language right away?
>Duolingo is probably the best place to get into the basics.
>https://en.duolingo.com/

What are the standard language learning levels?
>The six levels within the CEFR are A1, A2, B1, B2, C1 and C2.

What are the best books for each level?
>I would like to know as well, which is why I'm taking recommendations!
>The proficiency list is currently in construction.

[Anonymous No.17360903]

>>17360845
Doulingo is not something I would recommend to a person starting with a language, it's better to look up free language courses online that follow a plan used in actual language courses or if you have cash to spare - pay for one and have an actual speaker correct you.

For German language I can highly recommend:
https://learngerman.dw.com/en/overview

As for French, I started with following one, and their lessons have links to more helpful places:
https://www.thefrenchexperiment.com/

[Anonymous No.17360908]

>>17360845
What do you think about practicing translations in this general? Like someone posts poetry or excerpts from texts at different levels, then someone translates it into english or into another language and after that you can discuss the translation.

[Anonymous No.17360932]

>>17360908
Nothing is off limits, buddy. Please do.
I'm just trying to get a large enough community that is engaged so that the general doesn't die.
There aren't any curated reading lists across all learning levels. Which is what I'm also trying to push here.

>>17360903
I will create a list for these and add them to the repository later.
Thanks!

[Anonymous No.17360943]

>>17360845
>Italy
>not Orlando furioso
>not Petrarch
>not Jerusalem delivered

>France
>none

>Spain
>Calderón instead of Lope
>Not Quevedo (if you read it a translation it's comprehensible, a lot is lost in translation)

[Anonymous No.17360955]

>>17360845
why is London not as known as Dikens or Poe world wide if he's better than them?

[Anonymous No.17360977]

>>17360845
>putting Canada and the US with the UK
>not putting LatAm with Spain

[Anonymous No.17360982]

>>17360977
Is there a flag for Latin America? I will run out of space.

[Anonymous No.17360992]

>>17360982

[Anonymous No.17361027]

>>17360943
I forgot
>Italy
>not Decameron

[Anonymous No.17361101]

>>17360943
You guys need to chill out with those recs, you need a very solid level before you can read any of those. I've lived in Germany for about two years and have my C1 cert, and I have greatly struggled to read most of the German books listed. They are amazing books, some of my favourite, but this should be a list that you can use as a resource for learning, not a "once you are fluent you get to read all these cool books" list.

So no, no Lope de Vega and no Quevedo. More short stories and authors with contemporary lexicon.

[Anonymous No.17361242]

>>17361101
Did you study German for only 2 years and got to C1?

[Anonymous No.17361267]

>>17361101
they were my recommendation and OP in the last thread asked for masterpieces in your own language, not for easy to read books

[Anonymous No.17361277]

>>17361101
>>17361267
I want a list for C2+ and latter on a list for A1 to C1/C2. The second list is the hardest one to come across and correctly do.

I'm think we will have a hard time deciding what's good for beginners.

[Anonymous No.17361278]

>>17361242
Yes, but I was living in Germany too, so most of my daily life was conducted in German, which helps a lot.

[Anonymous No.17361315]

>>17361267
>>17361277
I see, the picks make more sense then. There is however lots of lists like this already. Also you should add some books from LatAm to the Spanish part. The German section is great, nice to see Hölderlin shilled on this board.

[Anonymous No.17361333]

>>17360943
What from Petrarch?

>>17361315
>>17360992

Which books from LatAm?

[Anonymous No.17361341]

>>17361101
>and I have greatly struggled to read most of the German books listed
I think that every major European language has renascence-esque poets and writers that incredibly difficult to read, even for native speakers.

[Anonymous No.17361394]

Help!

[Anonymous No.17361408]

>tfw A0
I'm sure it will start to click any day now hahahahah.....

[Anonymous No.17361467]

>>17360845
Góngora is so difficult for me being a native Spaniard, that I can't even understand it when I can understand almost the most difficult works in Spanish including medieval ones. His poems are like riddles, you'll need a dictionary on hand and a lot of thinking. Quevedo is also so difficult but with a different style.

[Anonymous No.17361501]

Kann ich die Werke von E. T. A. Hoffmann lesen, wenn mein Deutsch schlimm ist? Oder gibt es ähnliche Autoren die nicht so schwierig sind?

[Anonymous No.17361523]

>>17361333
>What from Petrarch?
Il Canzoniere

[Anonymous No.17361582]

>>17361467
It's the same thing for Camoes bro.

It's like he's speaking another language.

[Anonymous No.17361772]

>>17360845
>>>/int/lang

at least include https://4chanint.fandom.com/wiki/The_Official_/int/_How_to_Learn_A_Foreign_Language_Guide_Wiki in the op

[Anonymous No.17361880]

>>17361333
For danish
Put H. C. Andersen and Dan Túrell on as easy
Grundvig's højskole songs and Strunge and Ulrik Thomsen's poems as medium
Kierkegaard as hard

[Anonymous No.17362376]

Does anyone else have to "warm up" before they perform at their best in the TL? I swear if I watch a few videos in the language before doing reading practice in a day, my ability to read is significantly better

[Anonymous No.17362525]

>>17360845
I suggest Le Parti pris des choses (Ponge) and Madame Bovary (Flaubert) for French.

[Anonymous No.17362595]

>>17353730
Gracias, veré si los encuentro por aquí

[Anonymous No.17362712]

>>17362525
level?

[Anonymous No.17363299]

>>17360903
anything like this for spanish?

[Anonymous No.17363322]

>>17360845
>spain literally has one good book
Yikes

[Anonymous No.17363361]

Romania
>Mihai Eminescu
>Mircea Eliade
>Zelea Codreanu

[Anonymous No.17363603]

>>17360845
For the Portuguese language, add Grande Sertão: Veredas and Memórias Póstumas de Brás Cubas

[Anonymous No.17363710]

>>17363603
Are those the best Brazilian writers? I don't know a lot.

[Anonymous No.17363725]

>>17363710
The first one is one of the hardest brazilian book to read.

[Anonymous No.17363743]

>>17363725
>Grande Sertão: Veredas
Do you study a lot of Portuguese authors in school as well?

[Anonymous No.17363787]

>>17360845
You forgot the C3 level german that is very common in Hegelian wizardry and most important to understand the Earth and the Heavens

[Anonymous No.17364176]

Bump

[Anonymous No.17364225]

>>17362712
B2

[Anonymous No.17364231]

https://www.strawpoll.me/42501074

[Anonymous No.17364261]

>>17364231
https://www.strawpoll.me/42501103

[Anonymous No.17364330]

>>17361394
"Le petit prince" and plays from Molière or Racine have almost no description, it will be easy enough for any motivated A1/2

[Anonymous No.17364438]

>>17364261
It has a rooster

[Anonymous No.17364495]

>>17361394
Camus's the Stranger (and the plague I think) are B2 for French

[Anonymous No.17364504]

>>17364495
Maybe even B1

[Anonymous No.17364677]

>>17361394
Polack here.
For C1/C2, other than the aforementioned Pan Tadeusz, I'd also put Sienkiewicz's Trilogy (Ogniem i Mieczem, Potop, and Pan Wolodyjowski). The books themselves are some of the better Historical Romances out there ('Romance' as in Ivanhoe, not 'romance' as in Outlander) and, though they have a ton of flaws, they are A hugely important to understanding Polish patriotism/nationalism, and B) great fun. The main problem with them is the language--Sienkiewicz wanted to capture the 'feel' of the 17th century Commonwealth, and so he wrote in a pretty antiquated form of Polish (for instance, when talking about an abbey, he would call it an 'opactwo' instead of a 'klasztor.') This makes some parts of the books pretty hard to understand, even if you are fluent in Polish.

For C1, I would also put Prus' Lalka and Orzeskowa's Nad Niemnem--Prus' prose is pretty dense and layered, while Orzeszkowa mainly spends her time describing nature, rivers, etc., so that somebody will have to have a good grasp of Polish to appreciate all that.

Also, I know its genreshit, but for B2 I'd put Sapkowski's Hussite Trilogy. The English Translation is fucking abysmal, and since the books rely heavily on cultural references/wordplay, you'd better be off reading the original. And, while it is genreshit, its GOOD genreshit, y'know?

Hope this helps, feel free to criticize these picks or list other Polish /lit/.

[Anonymous No.17364707]

>>17361333
>putting the meme Romanticism portrait on the cover of Pan Tadeusz
>when Mickiewicz uses the Count to openly clown on Romanticism

How embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.17364735]

Francophones how difficult do you rate La Chanson?
The old french is definitely difficult because it is a different language, but I was reading a translated to modern french and it was not that hard. Some weird terms and words but overall I would say C1 or B2?
What do you think?

[Anonymous No.17364785]

Any latin literature charts?

[Anonymous No.17364814]

>>17364785
i

[Anonymous No.17364819]

>>17364735
I only read some extracts, it is pretty straighforward and any modern edition will include footnotes for the old french words I would rate it as B1 or B2

[Anonymous No.17364858]

>>17364814
what

[Anonymous No.17365376]

This is the best new general anon. It will be very useful to lit. Glad you are doing it

[Anonymous No.17365416]

>>17361394
"De Leeuw van Vlaenderen" by Hendrick Conscience is a novel considered "one of the founding texts of Flemish literature", so a work in the Dutch lit category. Not sure what reading level it'd be, but I'd say C1/C2.

[Anonymous No.17365418]

>>17360845
Dream of a Red Chamber is making me want to read it in Chinese.

[Anonymous No.17365518]

What do you think about Ørberg method for learning latin? Will it be enough to be able to read Virgil, Cicero, Ovid or Tacitus?

[Anonymous No.17366267]

I wish more people were contributing to this thread.

[Anonymous No.17366536]

Is the chart being updated?

[Anonymous No.17366593]

>>17360845
Great thread, thanks for putting this together

[Anonymous No.17366614]

>>17360845
What about Turkish???

[Anonymous No.17366635]

>>17366614
I asked about Turkish lit on this board a few months ago, here's the thread:
>>/lit/thread/S16708029
It quickly descended into chaos, but there were some recs in there.

[Anonymous No.17366640]

>>17366635
Here's some of the recs
Book of Dede Korkut
Yunus Emre - Divan
Evliya Çelebi - Seyahatname
Vatan Yahut Silistre - Namuk Kemal
Yaban - Yakup Kadri Karaosmanoğlu
Time Regulation Institute - Ahmet Hamdi Tanpınar
The Disconnected - Oğuz Atay
My Name is Red - Orhan Pamuk
Memed, My Hawk - Yaşar Kemal

[Anonymous No.17366646]

>>17366640
Meant for >>17366614

[Anonymous No.17366666]

My ambition is to learn all the major European literary languages. So far I've achieved competence in French and Latin, and am in the process of learning Spanish, but there's a part of me that thinks I should just abandon this project and learn Chinese. I'm Australian and my country essentially belongs to the Chinese so it would be the practical move.

[Anonymous No.17366676]

>>17366666
1. Nice digits
2. Collecting languages for the sake of languages seems a bit boring. Do you have some larger reason/plan in mind?

[Anonymous No.17366679]

>>17366666
Checked

[Anonymous No.17366687]

Spanish should have Cien Años de Soledad, Pedro Páramo, and Cántico Espiritual.
French should have Gargantua and of Pantagruel, Song of Roland, and The Red and The Black.

[Anonymous No.17366696]

>>17366666
>in a literature board
>thinking of learning Chinese instead of Spanish
Holy fuck you just cannot get the weeb out of the dweeb

[Anonymous No.17366752]

>>17366676
No reason other than so I can better appreciate the literature written in these languages and because I enjoy the process of learning them, but I have to keep the practical in mind.
>>17366696
>chinese
>weeb
I have no special affinity for the Chinese language. It just seems silly to not learn it at this point and It's not something you can half-dedicate yourself to. It's not like I'd be in any shortage of people to practice with anyway.

[Anonymous No.17367122]

>>17366752
Well, speaking in terms of the practical, knowing English is enough to do business with all the Chinese people who you will do business with.

[Anonymous No.17367309]

>>17366666
>My ambition is to learn all the major European literary languages.
>but because i get satan digits i fall for the pragmatic chink overload meme

[Anonymous No.17367451]

>>17366666
Mandarin or Classical/Literary Chinese? Because they are different languages and should be considered as such. Only L. Chinese is worth learning imo.

[Anonymous No.17367455]

>>17367451
Mandarin. From everything I've heard about L it sounds more like puzzle solving than reading a language, but I really don't know that much about it. Are you learning classical Chinese?

[Anonymous No.17367500]

>>17367455
Only just started, but I already know Japanese, so it's quite a lot easier. It's a bit more difficult to read it through jap, since you often end up having to do kanbun readings, that is, rearrange the structure of the sentence to make sense of it. But as L. Chinese doesn't have any "real way" of pronouncing it, the jap readings are just as valid as the Mandarin ones. You can also do it through, for example, Korean and Vietnamese. Or just go ahead and learn L. Chinese on its own. But by learning Japanese, and using that knowledge to learn L. Chinese, I can read both classical chinese and Japanese lit (nips also used L. Chinese quite a lot) in addition to 'regular' japanese lit. I don't really give a shit about Mandarin, as I find it an ugly language (besides the fact that it would doom my future job prospects to be China-related). Also there's not any good lit in modern Mandarin (as far as I know).

[Anonymous No.17367545]

>>17367500
Yeah reading classical Chinese sounds like probably the hardest literary feat to accomplish for a native English speaker. I can't think of anything more alien than that. Good luck with your studies.

[Anonymous No.17367603]

>>17361501
eta hoffmann ist zuemlich leicht. Lies halt nur kurze werke wie Der Sandman

[Anonymous No.17367895]

>>17361772
based
>>17361394
Most Dutch literature I've read was fine but didn't have much to it, with 2 exceptions that I really liked:
Noodlot - Louis Couperus C1
Max Havelaar - Multatuli C1, maybe C2

[Anonymous No.17368162]

>>17360845
Perhaps put in "Lykkeper" if you want scandi lit.

[Anonymous No.17368191]

For anyone wondering, I will be updating the charts shortly.

[Anonymous No.17368237]

>>17361880
Can you give me the respective book names? Otherwise I'm lost.

[Anonymous No.17368265]

file size test

[Anonymous No.17368277]

>>17363361
Also Emil Cioran

[Anonymous No.17368294]

>>17368237
Not that anon, but I'd say

H.C Andersen: Samlede eventyr og historier (Collected fairy tales and stories)
Dan Turell: Vangede billeder ('75), Storby-trilogiens ('76-77, collection of poems)

Grundtvig: Højskolesangbogen (Songbook for Folk High Schools)
Strunge: Not really well-versed in him, but maybe Nigger 1-2 and Vi folder drømmens faner ud
Thomsen: City Slang

Kierkegaard: Just his works in general, potentially put in Enten - Eller (Either - Or)

[Anonymous No.17368324]

>>17368265
A-Tier:
Rilke
E.T.A. Hoffmann
Schlink
Zweig

B-Tier:
Kafka
Thomas Mann
Von Kleist
Schopenhauer

C-Tier:
Goethe
Schiller
Nietzsche

[Anonymous No.17368357]

>>17368324
Can you give me the names of the noteworthy books?

Also, the file is already bigger than 4mb. I don't know how to post it here.

[Anonymous No.17368433]

[Anonymous No.17368479]

>>17368433
> Scandinavian lit under Dutch section
Are you bloody schtewpid mate?

[Anonymous No.17368515]

>>17368324
Rilke A-tier? I think his poetry is more difficult to read than Goethe's

[Anonymous No.17368516]

>>17368479
The Dutch have ironically more good literature then Scandinavia or Russia. Except nobody bothers to learn Dutch.

[Anonymous No.17368585]

>>17368515
Muttersprachler oder deutsche als Fremdsprache erlernt?

>>17368357
>Rilke:
Die Aufzeichnungen des Malte Laurids Brigge

>Hoffmann:
Der Sandmann

>Schlink:
Der Vorleser

>Zweig:
Die Schachnovelle

>Kafka:
Die Verwandlung

>Mann:
Die Buddenbrooks

>Von Kleist:
Der zerbrochene Krug

>Schopenhauer:
Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung

>Goethe:
Faust

>Schiller:
Die Räuber

>Nietzsche:
Also sprach Zarathustra

[Anonymous No.17369111]

>>17368433
>ignoring the post about Polish /lit/
Why even have that section there, then?

[Anonymous No.17369219]

>>17368433
please post future versions as a png.

[Anonymous No.17369247]

>>17369219
I can't, the file is larger than the limit. I actually wasn't accounting for this.

>>17369111
I didn't. I'm still working on it.

[Anonymous No.17369306]

>>17369247
In that case, I'd suggest just using catbox.moe.

[Anonymous No.17369313]

>>17369306
>>17369247
Isn't there a repository? I think they post one on /sffg/.

[Anonymous No.17369318]

>>17364495
absolutely not. maybe a2-b1

[Anonymous No.17369337]

>>17369318
I think you are seriously overestimating how low the bar is set at A2. At A2 you are not even considered to be an independent speaker of the language. The jump from A2 to B1 is very large.

[Anonymous No.17369347]

>>17369337
really? because i managed to read the stranger without any difficulty around those levels.

[Anonymous No.17369363]

>>17369347
If you speak English well enough, French will be relatively easy, early on. So it's not surprising.

[Anonymous No.17369516]

>>17364735
it's tricky to write in old french but very easy to understand it.

[Anonymous No.17369645]

Romanian poetry

Mihai Eminescu (all of it don't be a faggot)
Alexandru Macedonski
Tudor Arghezi (only his early works, the comunists made him write garbage)
Ion Barbu*
George Bacovia
Nichita Stanescu*
Gelu Naum* (also read Zenobia)
Lucian Blaga
The ones marked are difficult.

[Anonymous No.17369685]

>>17369645
>Alexandru Macedonski
Is this... his real name?

[Anonymous No.17369704]

>>17366696
>weeb
>Chinese
Actually retarded.

[Anonymous No.17369711]

>>17369645
Romanian prose

Cantemir - Istoria ieroglifica*
Eminescu - Sarmanul Dionis
Max Blecher - Vizuina iluminata, Intamplari in irealitatea imediata
Eliade - Noaptea de Sanziene, Pe strada Mantuleasa, La tiganci
Stefan Banulescu - Cartea Milionarului, Iarna barbatiilor
Octavian Paler - Viata pe un peron
Vasile Voiculescu - Zahei orbul*
This isn't an exhaustive list so I hope other VLACHS will contribute

[Anonymous No.17369721]

>>17369685
Yeah lol

[Anonymous No.17369893]

>General Language Learning Advice
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/learning-languages

>Chinese
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/chinese
>Latin
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/latin
>European (Spanish, French, Italian, German)
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/michel-thomas
>Gothic, Sanskrit, Sandhi, Classical/Koiné Greek
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/other-langs

Just started the Michel Thomas French audiobook recommended above, it really is truly amazing. My main issue is that it is a bit tough to understand him, just the microphone quality. But once you get used to it, the actual construction is amazing. Highly suggest.

[Anonymous No.17369904]

>>17369685
>>17369721
MACEDONIA STRONK
WE WAS ALEXANDER THE GREAT

[Anonymous No.17369921]

Serbian if anyone is interested

Pekic Golden Fleece (Zlatno Runo)
Njegos Mountain Wreath (Gorski vijenac)

Both C2

[Anonymous No.17369949]

Anyone interested in celtic languages literature? Not necessarily very old stuff.

[Anonymous No.17370154]

Made a chart for just french. Tell me which ones to include. Add stuff if you like

[Anonymous No.17370177]

>>17370154
add this. it's probably like a2

[Anonymous No.17370178]

Template for other languages

[Anonymous No.17370340]

I'm mad that I stopped taking french in highschool in favour of Spanish. Now I wasted 5 years of French growing up and don't know either. Time to restart French Canadian

[Anonymous No.17370360]

>>17370154
sup faggot
add Camus, Voltaire, Proust, Saint-Exupery, Montaigne for fuck's sake, Potocki, Chateaubriand, Rimbaud, Sthendal, Baudelaire, etc

[Anonymous No.17370384]

>>17370154
>Middle ages
François Villon (Le Lais, Le Testament, La Ballade des Pendus)
Béroul (Tristan et Iseult)
Chrétien de Troyes
Le Roman de Renart
Rutebeuf
Joinville (Vie de Saint-Louis)
>Rennaissance
Rabelais (Pantagruel, Gargantua)
Ronsard (Les Odes, Les Amours, Les Hymnes, Les Discours, Les Sonnets pour Hélène)
Joachim du Bellay (Les regrets)
La Boétie (Discours de la servitude volontaire)
Montaigne (Les Essais)
>Lumières
Voltaire
Rousseau
Diderot
Montesquieu
Condorcet
>19th Century
Chateaubriand
Lamartine
Balzac
Stendhal
Dumas
Baudelaire
Flaubert
Victor Hugo
Jules Verne
Rimbaud
Verlaine
Zola
De Maupassant
>20th century
Apollinaire
Paul Valéry
Charles Péguy
Louis Aragon
Paul Eluard
Anouilh
Camus
Sartre
Anatole France
Gide
Céline
Barrès
Proust
Vian

[Anonymous No.17370389]

>>17370360
Tell which categories to put their works mr big brain

[Anonymous No.17370439]

>>17370178
Thanks for the effort buddy. It might just be impossible to include every language in the same image.

[Anonymous No.17370444]

Chinese is better than meme indo-european language #32342.

[Anonymous No.17370496]

How do I motivate myself to learn a language. I get so distracted by English.

[Anonymous No.17370501]

>>17370496
1.) Look for a gf/bf in the language you want to learn.
2.) Talk to said gf/bf.

Easiest/best way.

[Anonymous No.17370509]

Anyone here used refold meathead to learn a language?

[Anonymous No.17370587]

>>17370154
>>17370178
I really like your autism, dude.

Keep up the good work.

[Anonymous No.17370919]

>>17370439
I designed it so the chart is specific for 1 language. Should work for most languages that emerged during Middle Ages. Maybe later I can create one for just specific time periods ie French books in 19th century, to get a comprehensive list

[Anonymous No.17371285]

>>17370919
Are you using paint? Or Gimp?

[Anonymous No.17371396]

>>17370919
>Maybe later I can create one for just specific time periods ie French books in 19th century
dividing by genre or by movement might be more useful than by time periods in all honesty

[Anonymous No.17371539]

>>17371396
I honestly think that further sub-dividing will only fuck things up.

The purpose of the list is for people to learn, not to be picky.

[Anonymous No.17371563]

>>17371539
it's just for convenience's sake, the french 19th century has so much fucking literature it's completely unrealistic to think you can give a proper idea of it using less than two dozens examples

[Anonymous No.17372289]

Bump