Byzantine Literature?

[Anonymous No.17357614]

[Anonymous No.17357618]

The Alexiad.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17357621]

>>17357614
Christianity

[Anonymous No.17357631]

The Secret History of the Court of Justinian and the Corpus Hermeticum. :^)

[Anonymous No.17357640]

>>17357621
No.

[Anonymous No.17357659]

>>17357631
You seem knowledgable about Byzantine /lit/, what are all must reads? I need a reading list

[Anonymous No.17357689]

>>17357614
Is Digenis Akritas any good? Is the life of constantine a must-read?

[Anonymous No.17357705]

>>17357631
>Corpus Hermeticum
Based. What translations are you using, anon?

[Anonymous No.17357706]

>>17357614
Bvmp

[« « « « Ƹ̵̡ Ӝ̵̨̄ Ʒ » » » » No.17357714]

>>17357614
Atheism

[Anonymous No.17357718]

>>17357705
What do you regard as the best byzantine /lit/ anon? Im trying to get a wide array of opinions in ITT

[Anonymous No.17357734]

>>17357714
Deism.

[Anonymous No.17357771]

>>17357614
bump

[Anonymous No.17357857]

>>17357614
Also, whats the deal with Plethon?

[Anonymous No.17357861]

>>17357718
Sorry boss, I'm more of a Latin fag. I only know Photius's Bibliotheca, the Tale of Bygone Years and the Hermetica Corpus for Oriental Christian stuff

[Anonymous No.17357888]

>>17357861
Ill just try to get the attention of some proper Byzaboos

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17357923]

>>17357614
Capitalism

[Anonymous No.17357944]

>>17357923
Imagine being butterfly

[Anonymous No.17357960]

There's "Dialogue with a Persian," by Emperor Manuel Palaiologos; written as a hypothetical theological debate between Manuel and an unnamed Muslim. It's doubtful that it actually happened, so just take it as a framing device for his arguments.

>>17357857

Plethon was a popular philosopher and neopagan who lived in the last stage of the Byzantine Empire's life.

This is clearly a copout but I'd suggest combing the wikepedia's Byzantine Literature page for popular titles and then search for pdfs of them. A few years ago I was kneedeep in the subject and could've given you a better answer, but shit happened and I fell out of it. Its sad; I think about the subject and I can feel the gears in my mind start to turn but they just go no where.

[Anonymous No.17357967]

>>17357621
This is your most ridiculous post. Which is saying something.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17357974]

>>17357923
Would you just shut up

Pushing me to adopt a damn trip. Look at you. Pathetic

[Anonymous No.17358000]

>>17357659
Are you looking for primary or secondary sources?
If primary, I can recommend
The Chronicle of Marcellinus.The Chronicle of Hydatius and the Consularia Constantinopolitana.
Socrates and Sozomenus in Church Histories Post Nicene Fathers.
Theodoret, Jerome, Genadius and Rufinus in Historical Writings found in Post-Nicene Fathers.
The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus.
The Secret History by Procopius (for a fun and alternative read)

A good secondary source and large overview could be the Cambridge Companion to the Age of Justinian

[Anonymous No.17358008]

>>17357960
Can you remember your favorite writers? Something I can sink my teeth in?

[Anonymous No.17358012]

>>17357974
Those are some disgusting covers. Why does anyone bother with Folio when they look so garish.

[Anonymous No.17358051]

>>17357614
the CORPVS IVRIS CIVILIS

[Anonymous No.17358074]

Why is it that Byzantine literature is so pushed aside? I mean, these are basically ancient greeks occupying rome.

[Anonymous No.17358077]

>>17358051
>CORPVS IVRIS CIVILIS
I am gonna counter this by recommending "Laying Down the Law. A Study of the Theodosian Code" by Matthews.
It serves as a good introduction to studying Byzantine law codes, and contain the Sirmodian Constitutions etc. Very handy.

[Anonymous No.17358097]

>>17358051
ΚΟΡΠΥΣ ΙΥΡΙΣ ΧΙΒΙΛΙΣ

[Anonymous No.17358109]

>>17357960
Are there more byzantine neo-pagans aside from Plethon?

[Anonymous No.17358113]

>>17358097
based, however, it was written in Latin.

[Anonymous No.17358123]

>>17358097
The Greek alphabet really does mog the fuck out of the Latin.

[Anonymous No.17358139]

The U.S. tax code

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17358146]

>>17357614
Capitalism

[⳩ (OP) No.17358150]

>>17358113
I am aware, but this seems like the superior next step to the latin V meme

[⳩ No.17358170]

>>17358146
The butterfly bingo list

[Anonymous No.17358217]

Who was in the wrong here?

[⳩ No.17358277]

>>17358217
I wish I knew

[Anonymous No.17358402]

Gonna recommend some more books, this time more about Byzantine environments and living. Some of these are
The Parastaseis Syntomoi Chronikai
The Book of the Eparch
The Miracles of St. Artemios
The Chronicle of Pseudo-Joshua the Stylite
all very interesting works in their own way. These are of course historical, so if you want Byzantine fiction you could read the Agapetus by Theodore Prodromos

[⳩ No.17358491]

>>17358402
I'd love some fiction recommendations, did byzantines have philosophy?

[Anonymous No.17358607]

>>17358491
You’ll find that most occupy the sphere of theology but Pseudo-Dionysus is a good one given his mysticism.
John Climacus is also an important one, very influental in how one saw the climb up to Heaven.
Aristandos and Kallithea is a nice romance in how powerful eroticism is.

[⳩ No.17358647]

>>17358607
And fiction? Did they have renowned poets?

[Anonymous No.17358724]

>>17357614
Plutarch was byzantine

[Anonymous No.17358862]

>>17357614
best books about these guys?
they seem kinda cool

[Anonymous No.17358868]

>>17357614
Are there any relevant lessons to be learned from the fall of the byzantine empire?

[Anonymous No.17358982]

>>17358868
Don't trust Venetians

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17359280]

>>17358868
States fail because they’re inherently brittle and unnatural

[Anonymous No.17360504]

>>17359280
>unnatural
the whole thing lasted a thousand years with constant and annual raids, wars and general devastation
disagree, sorry

[Anonymous No.17360584]

You start with the three Hierarchs
Gregory Nazianzenus was THE Christian poet for them
Other poets of interest were George Pisides, Mauropous, Digenea Acritas (which I personally don't like that much), Sahlikes and the Dionysiaca of Nonus, you could also read the verse of Leo "lighthouse guy" geometer but meh
Chrysostom was THE Christian orator
The other big name was of course the root of all evil, Michael Psellus, terminal narcicist who was probably sexualy attracted to his dead daughter and used the death of his mom as an excuse to tell people how awesome he was, still he was very witty and definitely worth reading
Basil Caesarean was THE theologian and moralist
The other big names in theology were Palamas and Kabasilas
In regards to music, John Damascenus (also wrote the best theological summary for Byzantine views of God) and Koukouzeles
For prose fiction, there are the Byzantine romantic novels of which all the extant ones were published in one edition translated by Elizabeth Jeffreys
There's also the Ptochoprodromic texts like Ptocholeon which are folk stories and I'm not sure exist in translation
Lastly, there's the Mazaris goes to Hades text which is a satire of the Peloponnese of the time, fun text desu
In regards to historiography: Theophanes, Skylitzes, Psellus, Anna Komnene, Genesius, Choniates, acropolites, Chalcocondyles, Cantacuzene, Pachymeres, Procopius, the records of Porphyrogenitus
Epistolography includes but is not limited to Manuel B Palaeologus, Kydones, Eustathius Thessaloniceus and Psellus
All Byzantine philosophy that might be worth anyone's time is unpublished, that's all that there is to be said on this matter
Now whether any of this is worth reading is not a very easy question, the Byzamemes are definitely an acquired taste

[Anonymous No.17360610]

>>17359280
>>17360504
Kek, was just about to type that, except in a much longer format. Good job, anon.
Buttertranny's Anarchope politics and general ignorance never ceases to amuse.

[Anonymous No.17360614]

>>17360584
There's also saints lives but that's a long collection of posts I'm not going to write
Read Ignatius and see if you like that, otherwise, don't bother

[Anonymous No.17360616]

>>17359280
> unnatural

Then why do we seem to gravitate towards forming them? Community, society, hierarchy are fairly natural. States are just a bigger version. We've had states for 3000 years, some of which have lasted for 1000 years at a time. Old states were brittle, but not unnatural.

[Anonymous No.17361462]

[Anonymous No.17361511]

>>17357614
Procopius of Caesarea (500 – 570) was a prominent late antique Byzantine scholar from Palaestina Prima. Accompanying the Byzantine general Belisarius in Emperor Justinian's wars, Procopius became the principal Byzantine historian of the 6th century, writing the History of the Wars, the Buildings, and the Secret History. He is commonly classified as the last major historian of the ancient Western world.

[Anonymous No.17361548]

>>17357614
Suda

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17361700]

>>17360504
>with constant and annual raids, wars and general devastation
See how brittle? See how the manacles chafe?

>>17360616
Greed, control freaks and natural passivity
Hierarchies that are natural and necessary are there from birth in the family, but when a group of cowards comes after you with threats of violence, you’d rather fo the rout of least resistance.
Well, we should be tough about it. That’s the only way to win our freedom back.

States are not bigger versions of families. They’re only a thing because of technological advances being thrown at primitive minds

>>17361462
Fuck off

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17361714]

>>17361700
>fo the rout of least resistance
Go the route
Excuse me

[Anonymous No.17361881]

>>17360584
Chrysostom got condemned in 431 though and his Antiochian school of faith is quite different to the Alexandrian.

[Anonymous No.17361985]

>>17361700
>See how brittle? See how the manacles chafe?
so, you are saying the whole thing ( I mean Anatolia, Greece, etc ) was parasitically held on by the imperial court in Constantinople? I have came across this in a books about Frankokratia, in which the local Greeks in Peloponnese were actually happy to see Frankish crusaders replace the Constantinopolitan tax collector.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!Fdjwhocst8j No.17362015]

>>17361985
Yeah, but it’s not just the Eastern Romans of course

[Anonymous No.17362081]

>>17362015
yeah, that is one way of looking at it; I'd just say it was the best alternative availble to people at the time

[Anonymous No.17362091]

>>17357631
>The Secret History of the Court of Justinian
most of it is pretty boring, but then you get to the parts where justianian's head flies off,

[Anonymous No.17362174]

>>17357614
Byzantium: The Surprising Life of a Medieval Empire by Judith Herrin
A History of Byzantium by Timothy Gregory
History of the Byzantine State by George Ostrogorsky
A History of the Byzantine State and Society by Warren Treadgold

[Anonymous No.17362180]

you ought to try the 2014 edition of michael attaleiates' history. interested to hear what you make of it. there exists a sort of companion text by krallis but you may not be able to get a hold of that for cheap.
other people have suggested psellos' chronographia and i second that in light of the above but i would further suggest you read some of his orations and letters.
manuel ii's funeral oration for his brother is also interesting from a historical point of view. it's also pleasant reading.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!Fdjwhocst8j No.17362309]

>>17362081
No. It was only best for those with swords and the desire to enslave, convert into their particular cults etc.

[Anonymous No.17362352]

>>17362309
and? that's how humans work

[Anonymous No.17362466]

>>17362091
Based slander. Better not take anything he says seriously.

[Anonymous No.17362494]

>>17362174
What makes exactly those good?

[Anonymous No.17363409]

>>17358109
byzantine romance novels used pagan settings if it counts
Mazaris trip to Hades takes place in well hades, not hell
some people have called Psellus a crypto-pagan but it doesn't really show in the same way Pletho openly calls for a dodecatheistic paganism with zoroastrian characteristics

[Anonymous No.17363581]

Butterfly is literally right though. Christianity spread because of the Greeks and the fact that its gestation was in the womb of Greek philosophy you illiterate niggers

[Anonymous No.17363783]

>>17363581
Greece got Christianized extremely late desu, especially considering it was so close to many Christian centers. So not entirely correct.

[Anonymous No.17364113]

>>17363783
God you're thick. Christianity got it's start with Greek philosophy, it's a direct descendant of Platonism.

[Anonymous No.17364141]

>>17357614
IUSTINIAN WAS A BLACK BULL
WTF IS THE WHITEWASHING

[Anonymous No.17364156]

>>17363783
wait which parts of Greece?
Yeah, the southern Peloponnese got christianised in ninth century but otherwise many parts of what today constitutes Greece, especially in the north and certain parts of Attica were some of first places to get christianised
it was also greek communities (or at least greek speakers if you want to do semantics) in Anatolia that were the most active early christians if Plinius Secundus' epistles to Trajan are anything to go by

[Anonymous No.17364160]

>>17364113
note, I said "entirely".

[Anonymous No.17364167]

>>17363783
The golden age of Greek philosophy was hundreds of years before Christianity. All those texts were influential on Christianity's development.

[Anonymous No.17364321]

>>17363409
Sounds like Dante ripped off the byzantines

[Anonymous No.17364361]

>>17364321
nono
Mazaris wrote in 1415, almost a hundred years after Dante died
books aren't even in the same genre, Mazaris wrote a prose satire of Pelopponesian society of his time, Dante's commedy certainly made many references to Florentine politics but they were not nearly as central to the text as to Mazaris' Hades
much more influential were the Byzantine romances which were rather popular during the rennaisance and were written before Mazaris

[Anonymous No.17364388]

>>17364361
Why is Byzantine literature so overlooked? I really like the stuff thats been posted so far.
Would you know by any chance where I could get iustinians works in greek btw?

[Anonymous No.17364440]

>>17364156
It varies from region to region obviously and material evidence contradicts textual sources, but you are right that the Southern part of the Peloponnese got Christianized the latest, which is both reflected in invitational lists of various synods and the type of churches which got built. In 431 only one bishop from the entirerity of the Peloponnese got invited to Ephesus, which is funny when considering the words of Sozomen from the 5th century. He claims that Christ’s name was spread throughout the whole world under Constantine,where even the Celts ended up Christianized, which is obviously not true. Hell, despite several laws which place bans on sacrificial activity in the early 5th century, those bans would be reinstated again and again through the 8th and 9th century, which speak volumes in how much narrative differs from reality. The Cyclades and Attica, for example, appear to have gotten their first churches around the middle to late 4th century, which is earlier compared to one of the first Corinthian churches built around the early 5th century.
In the Western Peloponnese in Olympia there is evidence of potential pagan activity up to the 6th century too.

[Anonymous No.17364450]

>>17364388
Loeb is your friend.

[Anonymous No.17364462]

>>17364450
thanks for everything

[Anonymous No.17364489]

>>17364388
Eh, it's written in a very confusing form of Greek and it's aesthetic value is still debated (not exactly what I'd call a lively debate but it exists) though I personally really enjoy it
Justinian never wrote anything unless you mean Procopius but as the other guy said, loeb is pretty solid if OLD

[Anonymous No.17364515]

>>17364489
why old? The older versions of Loeb? Why not the new ones, if so?

[Anonymous No.17364522]

>>17364489
then who wrote the codex iuris civilis and his novels?

[Anonymous No.17364538]

>>17358868
Don't fight the muslims unless you can destroy them to the last man. The 800 year-long fall of the Byzantines started at Yarmouk. After the rise of Islam, Turks and the other primitive barbarians of the region had one more good reason to keep invading Byzantium. The Seljuk imvasion also triggered the First Crusade, and this war increased tensions between Eastern and Western Christianity. Then the Fourth Crusade crippled the Empire, the brutality exhibited in return for the Massacre of the Latins a few years before, and the Romans become no more great than any regional power.
The battle of Yarmouk would have been won if they didn't participate in gay commander duels and just charged the muslims with their 4 to one numerical superiority. Also the lazy Greeks had two years to know how the Arabs fought, and didn't bother unifying their multiethnic army in genocidal zealotry.

[Anonymous No.17364567]

>>17364522
the code is an updated collection of opinions of legal scholars like Gaius and Pappinianus from the Theodosian codex
the primary person behind the code was a guy named Tryphonianus
novels here doens't mean prose fiction, it means new legal opinions and while the novels were theoretically Justinian's, the mind behind them really was again Tryphonianus
if you want to start with Byzantine literature, you should go for the Cappadocian fathers and John Chrysostom, even if their views were not entirely accepted especially John Chrysostom, their styles were incredibly influential

[Anonymous No.17364612]

>>17364567
What about Cyril of Alexandria?
Also, any specific edition recommendations?

[Anonymous No.17364642]

>>17364612
if you can read greek, Simelidis has a nice critical collection of the poems of Nazianzenus
Ierodiakonou has the best introduction to Byzantine thought though it's not exactly primary sources

[Anonymous No.17364665]

>>17364642
>Simelidis
I am so envious of the Oxford educated...

[Anonymous No.17364799]

>>17364642
How did you go on about learning greek?
I can already read the alphabet and certain words, but I don't really have any practice in it.

[Anonymous No.17364811]

>>17364799
buy a grammar book

[Anonymous No.17364834]

>>17364811
Just any? They are highly varied when it comes to content and approach usually.

[Anonymous No.17364867]

>>17364834
just look up which are used at Unis's

[Anonymous No.17365800]

Any good books regarding Byzantine peripheries? Their neighbourly relations etc? I am interested in that, would love to know.
Could be secondary or primary source.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!Fdjwhocst8j No.17366521]

>>17362352
That’s how they work while in this system.
This is not the human default behavior.

Anon, the technology we invent shapes us. Bronze smelting, writing, watermills, printing press, tv and computers, these things change us.

[Anonymous No.17366531]

>>17366521
Deep. Got any more insightful information to share?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!Fdjwhocst8j No.17366537]

>>17366531
It isn’t even deep. Why don’t people get this?

[Anonymous No.17366705]

>>17366537
People?

[Anonymous No.17366899]

>>17357614
The Homeric Centos and Magnalia Dei by grigor magistros are the peak of Byzantine lit

[Anonymous No.17366900]

>>17366537
shut up buttertranny

[Anonymous No.17366922]

>>17360584
>Dionysiaca of Nonus
You can't just claim African authors or anyone writing in the eastern Mediterranean as Byzantine

[Anonymous No.17367094]

>>17357974
>>17358012
please for love of god stop reading jj norwich. please stop reading it.
It is pop history and bad one at that, Norwich isn't even a byzantinist, got his degree at an unrelated thing I forgot, but boy people keep coming to me asking me about him.

t. deebly goncerned byzantinist phd fag.
>>17357614
check out psellos heavily underrated, also Gazan school has some funny pagan stuff.

[Anonymous No.17367176]

>>17367094
What are your favourite reads about the Byzantine Empire, byzantinist-kun? Would you happen to know about anything in particular about Egypt under Byzantine rule?

[Anonymous No.17367251]

>>17367176
>favourite reads
none, I hate reading, reading is a job to me, I never read for "fun" anymore. But Cynecius of Cyrene (if you call him byzantine) is my favorite author. In his "In Praise of Baldness" he btfos the hairfags, what a chad.
>Would you happen to know about anything in particular about Egypt under Byzantine rule?
Sadly no, I'm not focused on egypt, but I did a brief check.
Check out Egypt in the Byzantine World, 300-700 especially Part 1, you have chapters such as: Poets and Pagans in Byzantine Egypt, Higher education in early Byzantine Egypt, Philosophy in its social context, Coptic literature in the Byzantine and early Islamic world. I'm sure those articles have some primary material you can check out

[Anonymous No.17367281]

>>17367094
thoughts on these? >>17362174

[Anonymous No.17367289]

>>17367281
Gregory's work is the best among them, Treadgold's is more specific and academic, Herrin is too old and Ostrogorsky is too outdated.
I really like Gregory's book, can also serve as a college textbook for byzantine history classes. The chapters are neatly organized, bibliography is good for starters, there are "boxes" that have variety of primary sources and plus it is recent enough, the 2nd edition came out in the 2010s iirc.
definitely check him out

[Anonymous No.17367494]

>>17359280
The fuck are you on about? The Roman Empire was literally the most stable state on the face of the Earth. It lasted over 1200 consecutively with no break and if you count the Republic which it still technically was well over 1700 years.
>>17365800
The Byzantines themselves wrote a book about the stuff.
'De Administrando Imperio' by Emperor Constantine VII. It is a pretty honest look at their own situation in the world as it was probably not meant for publishing or circulation and just his own son.

The memoirs of Emperor John Cantacuzene are quite interesting look at the very late years of the Empire. Most of what I have read are military treatistes and their own histories they made. I do have a sizeable amount of secondary sources if anybody wants a recommendation.

[Anonymous No.17367520]

>>17367494
>The Roman Empire was literally the most stable state on the face of the Earth.
long lasting yes, stable? absolutely not.

[Anonymous No.17367553]

>>17367520
The Empire was most definitely stable. The institutions and administration of the state had never been ruptured from the inside of the Empire and only once from the outside by the Crusaders. The Empire was not going to collapse in on itself like so many of their neighbors would do in the East. The civil wars that affected the Empire were a byproduct of the Republican institutions which existed in the Empire.

[Anonymous No.17367566]

>>17367553
institutions/administration changed over time it is really bad practice imho to point out ERE in 560 and ERE in 970 and say nothing has changed in between. Nevermind the fact of countless sieges, wars, plagues etc

[Anonymous No.17367621]

>>17367289
How is the Herrin too old?

[Anonymous No.17367627]

>>17367566
Of course things changed inbetween, after all it is absurd to think nothing changes after 500 years. I would say the difference between 970-1200 is extraordinarily larger then that of 560-970.
The military of the Middle Byzantine Empire was structured in the same way as the Late Roman one. It was highly centralized, emphasized discipline and somewhat professional. The hierarchy of commanders outside of the very highest positions and provincial divisions had quite literally no change from the Emperor Maurice (who is only known to have changed the doctrine of warfare, not the structure of military so it is likely this military hierarchy may even go back to when the Western Empire still existed.) and Nikephorous II's army. Both of their treatises describe the organization of the army in the same way.

The administration of the Empire shared mostly the same qualities as the one of Diocletian and Constantine's reformed ones. It was the subdivisions in how the Empire was administered which greatly had to be changed to the reality of a smaller Empire after the Arab conquests. The Byzantines were a state founded and stuck in Antiquity, of course it worked fine because it was superior to all else for a long time but by the time of the 11th century all the advantages they had were no longer their exclusive privilege so you only end up seeing attempts to fundamentally change the Empire to adapt to their new world after the Turkmen migrations into Anatolia. Most of which were met with failure.

[Anonymous No.17367629]

>>17367621
she is 78, wrote that book when she was around 65-66. fuckers don't retire, only fuck the job market more.

[Anonymous No.17367636]

>>17367494
>The Roman Empire was literally the most stable state on the face of the Earth. It lasted over 1200 consecutively with no break
That's sort of like saying two thousand years from now that the United States of America was the most stable state in the world even though for its last thousand years it was just California and a couple of other territories on and off.

[Anonymous No.17367653]

>>17367636
Being invaded and losing territory is not a matter of stability. If the Empire broke off from itself you could say it was unstable but that only happened once in Roman history. Military success is not the same as internal stability.

[Anonymous No.17367672]

>>17367629
what does that have to do with the work

[Anonymous No.17367686]

>>17367653
The notion of stability is impossibly vague then. We are calling a state which geographically relocated itself and lost its religion and administrative language stable? You could make a better argument for the stability of the West Frankish kingdom, since we still have a Fifth French Republic and not some scionized entity in a different location with an unrelated language and theology.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17367718]

>>17367494
Like capitalism, it needs continual growth and causes much suffering for the luxury of the few.
People will want to romanticize these things, but they’re shit. Historical, and nothing to be done about them now, but our future has to look beyond them.
Or there is no future

[Anonymous No.17367748]

>>17366521
>Anon, the technology we invent shapes us.
Yes, I see what you are trying to say, but tribal societies were extremely violent as well, weren't they? There is no absence of violence for us humans, I think
Maybe I lack empathy, but I just take it for granted. It always was like this, and it always will be. No matter what the two of us think about it.

[Anonymous No.17367749]

>>17367718
The Empire did not need continual growth, it stopped expanding after Trajan died. For the next 1100 years they existed in a mostly stable state. The people living in the Empire had a better quality of life then anywhere else, they had efficient law, safe trade and protections. The cities of Rome and Constantinople fed upwards of 1.5 million people through welfare allowing them to buy luxury goods instead of just food.
>>17367686
The Empire had one continuous administration unlike the Franks to modern French. The Roman state stood strong internally while the Franks and French were beset by internal issues which fundementally changed their government, the Kingdom of France under Louis XVI and the Republic are two very differently ruled states, the Empire of Diocletian and Basil I was a continuous thing with very little change to the administration.

[Anonymous No.17367762]

>>17367749
I can give you Diocletian to Basil but you'll have to do better than that for Augustus to Constantine Palaiologos being stable

[Anonymous No.17367793]

>>17367762
Nope, there is literally no argument for it. The Crisis of the Third Century was the closest the Empire got to complete collapse from complete loss of central power and multiple invasions on all sides. I can expand on it if you want since the crisis is one of my more interested topics in Roman history.

I would put the Crisis of the Third Century and the 4th Crusade as definitive points in Roman history. The Crisis shook the Empire, had pieces of it breaking away to defend itself and in the end Diocletian would have to put the pieces back together once the hardest parts were over so it could survive making a very distinct government and administration from the former Principate.

The Fourth Crusade was really just the end of most of the Roman institutions and practices. The Senate was destroyed, the Roman administration and bureaucracy dissolved and military traditions and formation were no longer possible. The successor states to the Byzantines were just that, all of them competed for the same title and lacked all the most important aspects of the Roman state if not their identity.

[Anonymous No.17367816]

>>17367793
The ending there is really what gives it away, the idea and prestige of being able to call yourself Roman was far more enduring than any particularly Roman institution. The Ottoman sultan would style himself kayseri-i-rum for hundreds of years after taking Constantinople, a practice picked up from the curious 'Rumeli' he encounted on his way... to Greece.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17367819]

>>17367748
>extremely
Don’t know. Life was tough. What about it?
I believe we can have an absence of permanent warfare and a threat of total annihilation, which is what we have now. No, it was not always like this.

>>17367749
There is either expansion or contraction, and again, it always causes misery for a great mass.

[Anonymous No.17367897]

Ok, so

procopius
(justinian)
anna komnena
basilius the great
pseudo callisthenes
photios
michael psellos
agathios
theodoret
jerome
genadius
chrysostomos
cyril of alexandria
cynecius of cyrene
rufinus
hydiatus
marcellinus comes
plethon
pseudo dionysios
boethios
proklos
gregorios of nazinzos
mazaris
aristandros
kallithea

Ill scrap the ones I dont like, but I need all significant scholars listed

[Anonymous No.17367932]

>>17367816
The actual Roman identity never really ended until Greek independence, most people still called themselves Romans and spoke in their words 'Romeika' or Language of the Romans. The people living in the Byzantine Empire never really called themselves Greek and referred to their ancestors as the Ancient Romans.

[Anonymous No.17368106]

>>17367819
>Don’t know. Life was tough. What about it?
I admit I haven't read any books on tribal societies, but I tend to listen to youtube videos made by PhD medievalist - he often mentions tribal realities being much more savage, cruel and vindictive than "civilized" polities. His channel name is Schwerpunkt by the way.
>we can have an absence of permanent warfare and a threat of total annihilation
Disagree, it is not achievable today, no one in possesion of nuclear arms would be willing to give them up.
Anyway, it was really nice talking to you. Even if we disagree on some things

[Anonymous No.17368156]

>>17357614
what a unit. he really bulked up in his later years

[Anonymous No.17368173]

>>17364388
>Why is Byzantine literature so overlooked?
Language barrier (especially in the past), cultural barrier, it being confined to the medieval era (which enlightenment era historians and their disciples didn't really care for), etc.

[Anonymous No.17368420]

>>17360584
Where can I find such texts (the original not necessarily a translation), say Mazaris, online?

[Anonymous No.17368726]

>>17367094
Where did you get your PhD??
I want to go down the same path for a Master, but I am looking at various uni’s

[Anonymous No.17368789]

>>17367494
I would love some secondary sources! Thanks for the primary ones.

[Anonymous No.17368897]

>>17367897
Scholars relevant in todays Byzantine field or from the late 19th century and onwards?

[Anonymous No.17369064]

>>17357614

[Anonymous No.17369454]

>>17368897
No, authors that lived in the byzantine empire

[Anonymous No.17369890]

>>17368789
It's easy to give recommendations but do you have any particular facet of Byzantium you want to know about? It makes it easier for better stuff. Most of my eye is on military stuff and I have a woeful amount of stuff on the Late Empire.

[Anonymous No.17369940]

I'm suprised nobody has posted Zonaras's works yet, he was a monk from the 1100's who wrote a history about Rome that used sources that modern historians can't identify that fill in the gaps after the decline and fall of the Western half of the empire. Really cool stuff if you're into this era of history.

[Anonymous No.17369943]

>>17367672
nothing, just me raging, but I generalize as old farts tend to write bad general books, Cyril Mango is another culprit on this
>>17368726
>Where did you get your PhD
lets say somewhere in east coast
>I want to go down the same path for a Master, but I am looking at various uni’s
just getting master in history is absurd, and for phd you should only target top 10, even top 20 struggle in finding a job
its ivy/ivy equivalent (true equivalents, not u of michigan etc) and then everyone else.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17370038]

>>17368106
We can change the system, change our minds, and not be so cruel. You believe we’re stuck in solid state, but that’s the wrong mindset, a self fulfilling prophecy

[Anonymous No.17370159]

>>17369890
Religion, infrastructure and trade would be my go to interest, especially in the Empires early years in late antiquity and early Middle ages, but I’d gladly take some military stuff too! Know anything regarding the Sassanids and their war with the Byzantines?

[Anonymous No.17370209]

>>17369943
I realize the market is hard as fuck when it comes to jobs but I still want to take the leap and pursue my passion. Applied for a couple of top 10 unis, although I haven’t gotten a response yet so we will see.

[Anonymous No.17370238]

why were the byzantine so based bros? was it their christianity or was it its christianity :^)
pagancucks BTFO

[Anonymous No.17370282]

>>17370238
Definitely its Christianity.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17370304]

I'm trans guys! Just wanted to finally come out even though I know you guys aren't very accepting...

[Anonymous No.17370807]

>>17370038
And where is the fun in that, thread-derailing gay woman?

[Anonymous No.17371690]

>>17370304
βhen βill butterfly finally kíll himself?

[Anonymous No.17372117]

>>17371690
Ins't that a B? Can it transform into a W?

[Anonymous No.17372209]

>>17372117
Its a w/v from medieval greek onwards, which makes gud meme

[Urantia philosopher No.17372224]

>>17357614
>Introduction to Orthodox Church: Byzantine Theology by Fr John Meyendorff (Half)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo-pTl6_Li0

[Anonymous No.17372231]

>>17372209
Aaah, I should study more medieval greek, most of my experience lies in attic.