/lit/ - Literature

[Blood Meridian No.17356388]

Just finished reading it for the first time. It wasn't an easy reading, it's so dense with land description poetic prose, and very little insight into the protagonist's mind, it was very different from what I was expecting, but I would be lying if I said I'm not thinking about it every day and I plan on doing a re-read this year. Can we talk about the ideas in the book, Holden's philosophy and that ending? I know most of it went completely over my head.

So the Judge is the physical embodiment of Darwinian evolution? Survival of the fittest and might makes right? But that alone wouldn't explain all the unnecessary cruel acts, so he's more like the embodiment of Evil? The Devil?

[Anonymous No.17356508]

>>17356388
I found it to be an easy read but my favorite books are Moby Dick and 100 years

[Anonymous No.17356521]

Wow a cover for the book that isnt complete dogshit

[Anonymous No.17356578]

>>17356508
I read it a few weeks ago and found it surprisingly easy. The first couple of chapters were a real slog but then it clicked and started to flow. Weird experience, it's obviously unconventional but once I was into it it felt more natural than most more traditionally structurrd prose.

[Blood Meridian No.17356580]

>>17356508
I prefer books that are a bit more character oriented, so it was a bit frustrating that The Kid is barely a side character for most of the middle part, and interesting characters like Toadvine don't really get any spotlight. Brown ends up getting more of the spotlight than Toadvine by the end, but he's just as cruel and sadistic as Glanton (wich I expected more background and development).

>>17356521

Yeah, that cover is Metal AF. Pic related is the version I got in PT-BR. I think it's alright.

[Anonymous No.17356851]

>>17356388
I'll never get the appeal of this book. McCarthy writes like ass.

[Anonymous No.17356854]

Why didn't The Kid shoot Holden in the desert? I have 3 interpretations:

1- He doesn't shoot for the same reason The Judge sees him as a great disappointment: deep down he's a decent man that refuses to embrace Holden's view of the world, he refuses to allow himself to turn into a monster, to take that extra step, despite having the potential for violence. Showing mercy is a direct insult to Holden and his beliefs, and for that The Judge kills him at the end.

2- At this point The Kid is aware that Holden isn't just an ordinary man and is afraid of him. The way he seems somewhat obsessed with The Judge may support this, and the fact he specifically says ''I'm not afraid of you''.

3- The Kid developed some sort of group loyalty, so killing one of ''their own'' is somehow a greater sin than killing random innocent people. That's why in almost all scenes where the Kid shoes kindness and mercy it is directed at his partners, he never just leaves them for dead.

I believe the first explanation to be more convincing, but if that's the case, the book doesn't make it that clear that you're supposed to view The Kid as morally ambiguous, or even as a decent person struggling in a bad situation. He killed dozens of innocents, took part in gruesome massacres of innocent indians and mexicans, and now the book is telling me he's above shooting Holden because he's a good person? I'm not so sure about that...

[Anonymous No.17356939]

>>17356388
>so he's more like the embodiment of Evil? The Devil

“Night of your birth. Thirty-three. The Leonids they were called. God how the stars did fall”

A reference to the Judge being an angel expelled from heaven ? Certainly a satanic figure . His hairless features also
Allude to a baby. Humans being born inherently evil? Either way, there is no Christ in this world of MCarthys, no redemption, it seems like man is born into their wickedness with no chance out. An indifferent God looks down upon a waste at Urth

[Anonymous No.17357009]

>>17356939
Good point. His last speech suggests that those times of great violence, wildness and injustice (maybe the 'Meridian' point the titles refers to) are numbered, but he never sleeps, and he will never die. The way I understood, the wild west was the pinnacle of Holden's world and civilization would come, not to end it completely, but to lessen its degree. That was just my first impression, I'll probably have to re-read his speeches many times to make sense of it...

[Anonymous No.17357114]

>>17356854

not sure if the kid had any kills until he grew up. I think he was more of a bystander the entire time

[Anonymous No.17357136]

>>17357114
Oh, he had. Even before joining the army and then Glanton's gang, he killed a mexican barman by thrusting a broken glass bottle into his eye because said barman refused to serve him a dose. You see why I have trouble seeing the Kid as a decent person, above Glanton and Holden...

[Anonymous No.17357177]

>>17356939
>Either way, there is no Christ in this world of MCarthys, no redemption, it seems like man is born into their wickedness with no chance out. An indifferent God looks down upon a waste at Urth
What’s the point of reading fiction like this? Genuine question.

[Anonymous No.17357212]

>>17357177
Exactly, it's brazen, over the top, and void of any literary qualities. It's actually similar to reading smut or doujins.
It simply relies on shock effect to mask it's horrendous writing and reel in the perverted animals enjoying its flawed form.
McCarthy writes like he's a 12 year old kid with a never ending stream of conciousness, his "fans" defend that shit by saying "it's his style".
It's just so fucking horribly written and meaningless. Only a shallow midwit can find enjoyment in this heap of shit.

[Anonymous No.17357230]

>>17357177
Well, It’s not VeggieTales , But the world that he creates through his prose is stunning. The themes I described come out in the poetry of his writing, So that’s why I read it and very much enjoyed it, even if the foundation is dark and depressing.

[Anonymous No.17357231]

>>17357177
>>17357212
What if I reached a completely different conclusion to that edgy, gory nihilism you talk about?

[Anonymous No.17357236]

>>17357231
I wouldn't be surprised. You're American right?

[Anonymous No.17357238]

>>17357231
Then awesome , I’d love to hear it .

[Anonymous No.17357256]

>>17357236
I'm not, but if you're asking that you can't be really interested in an honest, serious debate...

>>17357238
Like I said here: >>17357009
It's the end of an era of darkness. The ''He never sleeps, he says he will never die'' could mean that violence and evil will never completely dissipate from the human soul, it has to be constantly suppressed, controlled. It's part of our nature, but it doesn't have to define us and lead us to evil. The Kid (The Man at that point) rejected Holden's views, and so can we.

[Anonymous No.17357261]

>>17357136
He's not supposed to be a "decent person," it's that he is an actual feeling human. He does some despicable things, but he doesn't revel in it like his companions, and explicitly feels sympathetic for suffering people. No other member of Glanton's gang, save for maybe the ex-priest, feels any compassion towards anyone, at least not enough to act on it.

[Anonymous No.17357299]

>>17357261
That doesn't stop him from partaking in all those gruesome, violent acts towards innocent people. Even Toadvine is more vocal in his protests against gratuitous evil: ''the sons of bitches aren't hurting anyone'' (refering to the peaceful tribe by the river that they soon slaughter, I'm parafrasing, I don't know the exact quote in the original english version).

[Anonymous No.17357306]

>>17357230
I know I would probably enjoy it/be entertained in a morbid sense, but ultimately I read to find beauty and meaning. I already know the world is a terrible place. Can you find beauty and meaning in Blood Meridian?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.17357308]

>>17356388
That's because of Christianity

[Anonymous No.17357488]

>The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it all from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning.
>The universe is no narrow thing and the order within it is not constrained by any latitude in its conception to repeat what exists in one part in any other part. Even in this world more things exist without our knowledge than with it and the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way. For existence has its own order and that no man's mind can compass, that mind itself being but a fact among others.

this quote from the judge simply has too much power flowing it. it has sustained me through the darkest of days

[Anonymous No.17357516]

>>17356388
>very little insight into the protagonist's mind

This is rarely highlighted when talking about Blood Meridian but I think it is a really interesting point. I always think it's corny when authors give a psychological insight to their characters behaviour. How could the author really know?

[Anonymous No.17357523]

>>17356580
I think this cover is better, the covers that try to look evil or scary are gay.

[Anonymous No.17357532]

>>17356854
The same reason Starbuck couldn't kill Ahab

[Anonymous No.17357534]

>>17357488
That's about how we have no other perspective from which to judge our world, for we are miniscule and insignificant. If we had we would see it as it is, as he described it. And that all the understand we have of the world are of our own creation, our fiction to allow us to get by. The real order of the world is completely out of our comprehension.

How the fuck do you read that lovecraftian speech as motivational?

[Anonymous No.17357541]

>>17357177
Its enjoyable, makes you think about things...

[Anonymous No.17357542]

>>17356939
no thats an illusion to moby dick

[Anonymous No.17357548]

>>17357532
And what reason is that? I haven't read Moby Dick.

[Anonymous No.17357550]

>>17356939
Who narrates Blood Meridian? It changes from "Your", to "the" at some point

[Anonymous No.17357564]

>>17357136
He also burns down the hotel, where the Judge first spots him, the creepy scene where the Judge rides by and doesn't break eye contact with the kid

[Anonymous No.17357573]

>>17357534

>How the fuck do you read that lovecraftian speech as motivational
i view it as motivational because create the world that I live in. it may not make anyone feel warm and fuzzy, but it is ontologically sound and true

[Anonymous No.17357576]

>>17357212
filtered...hard.

[Anonymous No.17357588]

>>17357306
Some of the descriptions of nature are the most beautiful I have read, describing the night sky as "star blown" is so simple and evocative. The book is filled with things like that.

[Anonymous No.17357595]

Is there even a single instance of the kid showing mercy or kindness to anyone that wasn't an ally to him the the army or gang?

[Anonymous No.17357684]

>>17357523
I disagree. I like the ominousness that the OP provides. However, I understand what you mean

[Anonymous No.17357724]

>>17357114
After the Yuma massacre the kid is described as a dead eye. You don't get that good at shooting people by not shooting people nor would a bystander be allowed to stay in Glanton's gang without partaking in the violence.

[Anonymous No.17357747]

>>17357595
I don't think so, and this is specifically contrasted by when he becomes the man and shows kindness to the abuela, which is discovered to be dead anyway

[Anonymous No.17357778]

>>17357724
Not him, but this is what I find infuriating about this book, 350+ pages and by the end you barely have an idea of who the protagonist is supposed to be, it's all so vague. The book would already be extremely cryptic without it, I don't see why that was necessary. Is the kid really supposed to contrast with Holden? We know the latter thinks so, but we are not shown the reasons.

[Anonymous No.17357801]

>>17357136
>>17357724

yeah I paid too much to the judge’s ending speech. he rejected violence in his heart, but still killed? I probably need to read it again

[Anonymous No.17357804]

>>17357747
Exactly. He is also very patient with the kid that called him a liar at his own bonfire, and only kills him reluctantly in self-defense. He even thinks ''you would have died anyways'', like he has a conscience now. He carries a bible despite being illiterate. Those hints suggest that he changed considerably, but Holden suggests that he has always been different, the only one that ''betrayed'' the gang...

[Anonymous No.17357815]

>>17357778
...come up with your own reasons

[Anonymous No.17357820]

>>17356388
McCarthy is heavily influenced by Melville.
Both of their literature is deeply rooted in the theology of Calvinism.
There are many strange dichotomies which emerge; for example, man's predilection for gruesome violence is primarily driven by want of liberty (whatever that implies).
McCarthy's wild west is man's world. One which operates under the facade of civility, law, and order.
Yet our ingenuity and rationality finds crevices in those laws (whether civil or ecclesiastic), not matter how well-constructed, through which we rebel. The selfishness which propels man.
American Calvinism has been at odds with the libertarian principles of The Constitution for this very reason. William Garrison said that it is "a covenant with death, and an agreement with hell." From this document sprung forth man's total depravity. The evil and violence which Calvin extolled us to to vigorously wrangle and suppress at all costs.
More than anything though, McCarthy is wrangling with the paradox that prevails in Calvinism and its impact on both America's history and future, in particular.
As Calvin states in The Institutes: "men can effect nothing but by the secret will of God, and can deliberate on nothing but what he has previously decreed."

[Anonymous No.17357827]

>>17357804
He carried the bible out of the appearance it gave him. Even to this day a man of the lord is considered a good person.

[Anonymous No.17357913]

>>17357820
This is very interesting anon. So are you saying depriving man of the idea of free will leads him to violence?
Why is that?
Anywhere we can read about this?

[Anonymous No.17357925]

>>17357827
And why would he go out of his way to be seen as a good person? He also carried a necklace of human ears, wouldn't that work against that goal?

I think the ear collar and the bible represents his violent past and his hope of reform for the future. That os his duality of being always at the top of the wall, never choosing a side (and this is what infuriates Holden).

[Anonymous No.17358522]

>>17357925
No. You're really missing the point of carrying a bible. It's for appearances only. Toadvine wore the necklace of human ears.

[Anonymous No.17358624]

>>17358522
Brown wore the necklace. When Brown and Toadvine were hung by the neck, the kid bought Brown's ear necklace from some drunk soldier at a bar and used it since. Carrying a bible for appearances and using a necklace of human ears makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.17358803]

>>17356851
Damn anon! you are really hairy.

[Anonymous No.17358819]

>>17357212
Ofc, an anon on 4chan perfectly encapsulated what the book is about, despite the book purposefully allowing multiple analogies and interpretations of its text, not unlike Moby dick.

[Anonymous No.17358842]

>>17357306
Have you already made up your mind that this book is without meaning? That's retarded honestly, Blood Meridian is more illuminating than any American novel since Faulkner's, and it's certainly not nihilistic unless that's what you want to get from it. Like Moby dick it lends well to different interpretations of the meaning of the text.

[Anonymous No.17358865]

>>17357778
The kid is definitely not the good guy, he is protagonist in the sense that we follow him in the beginning and at the end.

[Anonymous No.17358871]

>>17358624
He's illiterate, can you not see the irony of carrying a bible he can't read and wearing a necklace of ears of heathen savages? Makes sense to me.

[Anonymous No.17358880]

>>17356939
I am not sure but I think that's the kid's father speaking to him about his birth date (and day his wife died). Interestingly, there is a meteor shower at the end as well, though it's not the leonids.

[Anonymous No.17359071]

My theory is that Holden was raping and killing children throughout the novel and when possible he tries to corrupt others. I think he made the retard rape that girl in the camp towards the end of the book. Similarly he "takes" the kid's soul at the end by making him rape/kill the bear girl. Also is there a way to get OP's cover from a bookstore?

[Anonymous No.17359093]

>>17356508
100 years isn't hard, is it? I am planning on getting it.

[Anonymous No.17359112]

>>17356388
The fact that you're thinking about it every day means it had the proper effect on you. Don't worry about it going over your head. It's the kind of book that deserves to be digested slowly, over years.

A guiding question, but for me the most important when trying to figure out the book - do you think Holden is a human, or not? I'm asking you to ask yourself; I'm dubious about the value of discussion on four chan dot org.

[Anonymous No.17359154]

>>17359112
Not OP, but the things he does throughout are definitely superhuman, however nothing is exactly supernatural. If you look around, there have been quite a few almost unbelievable things that humans have done (fabrication or false, idk), and still more have never been recorded. I can see a man like him existing but never documented at some period of time

[Anonymous No.17359178]

>>17356854
The Kid is made of the two conflicting sides of man, he's prone to outbursts of violence and commits many heinous acts but he also at several points shows a kind of remorse, as well as concern (Like when he rushes to the man who had been speared, or when he removes David Brown's arrow.)
The Judge on the other hand is a kind of Ubermensch who has mastered his nature, his actions are his own and are done without doubt. He is jovial and learned but also cruel. This completeness is what makes him appear supernatural.
I took away that The Kid doesn't shoot Holden for two reasons. The first is that he does in fact fear him, which he clearly does given how often he insists that he doesn't. The second is that conflict within himself, the same thing that prevented Toadvine from shooting him when he murdered the Apache child. They are all bad and violent men, no better than the Judge, and so they cannot pass Judgement onto him.
Symbolically, not shooting the Judge isn't about not becoming him, but rather the opposite. Holden represents that crazed, dark violence that carries them around murdering, whoring and partying, and to kill him they would have to kill that inside of them, which man cannot do, and that is why he will live forever.

[Anonymous No.17359240]

>>17359071
I don't think there is any reason to believe that Holden was raping those children (or that he raped the Kid at the end, since people seem to think that for some reason). The Judge doesn't really show a taste for any sort of sexual perversion (though I could see him getting a kick out of having the retard rape just to see what would happen), I'm pretty sure he was just murdering those children. Similarly, he wasn't really corrupting anyone. He never encouraged them on to more or greater violence. He was simply riding with men who would create the kind of chaos and violence that he enjoyed.

As for the Outhouse, I feel like Holden simply murdered the kid. People point to it not being shown as a reason why it must be something more, because McCarthy doesn't shy away from violence, but throughout the novel he also shows plenty of rape and sodomy, and given the nonchalant reaction of the man pissing outside, I doubt it was anything particularly extreme. I believe McCarthy chose not to show it because it lets our minds insert something more gruesome and horrifying than anyone could write.

[Anonymous No.17359470]

>>17359178
This is similar to what I think. Obviously nothing in the book can be reduced to pure archetypes or symbols. But:

>The Kid represents man sliding into violence and atrocity when in a group setting. As a protagonist he literally dissolves into the narrative of the violent gang and this frustrates a lot of readers with his “disappearance” for some of the most impactful spans of the novel. But this is the entire point, that any person with a human combination of enjoyment and revulsion of violence can indulge in it in a group or hivemind. Whether they do it dispassionately or with great enjoyment and vigor or with regret and distrust after the fact is up for debate or may vary.
>The Kid fears the Judge for his preternatural abilities and knowledge, and how all his apparent “mistakes” or follies always play out to be traps or somehow to Holden’s advantage in the fullness of time even if unplanned by the Judge. This reflects the inevitability of man’s violent will and that of imperialism and its insistence on violent knowing and extinguishing. Also reflects how man’s violent and consuming nature can never be reckoned with, or as in the desert scenes, never really even faced directly, like God in the Old Testament.

[Anonymous No.17359545]

>>17356521
The skull is lame IMO
t. owns a different lame paperback

[Anonymous No.17359563]

>>17357261
You’re right. And that’s why the Judge calls him out towards the end. He knows the kid just won’t admit it. In the end, he accepts it, and the Judge embraces him

[Anonymous No.17359593]

>>17359470
I agree except on The Kid, I think he is more representative of man's dualitye. The Kid is shown to be particularly prone to violence from the start, he's killed in cold blood long before he joins the gang. I think him dissolving into the gang is more of a way to resolve his inner conflict and absolve himself of his choices by falling into a group mentality or a cause, which is why he joins on to the army. It is important that while with the gang, most of the scenes where The Kid is in focus are those where he sets himself apart from those around him and his contradictory nature is most obvious. For example, during the camp raid the focus is drawn to The Kid when he takes notice of one of the gang's cries for help and tries to aid him before the man is gunned down by Glanton. That is also why McCarthy makes sure to mention that The Kid is wading out into the water to take a scalp when it happens. His absences in the narrative are as you say just him being one of the group.

[Anonymous No.17359630]

>>17359593
Right that’s what I mean too, you put it perfectly. I just meant he represents that ability to commit and justify atrocity with or without feeling while in a group while simultaneously having the doublethink of thinking yourself better than that as an individual, or just physically being unable to be that violent when you’re individuated.

[Anonymous No.17359688]

>>17359563
>>17359630
It boggles my mind how many leddit theories there are about this book. The Judge and The Kid being the same person, or The Kid being a secret pedophile, or Holden raping him in the outhouse. I don't know how smooth brained you'd have to be given the book is pretty straightforward in its meaning and symbols. The only real ambiguity is whether or not Judge Holden is supernatural or just appears that way, and the fate of The Man (formerly the kid). Neither of which change to point of the book or are le wacky twists but are more interesting to speculate on.

[Anonymous No.17359701]

>>17357516
>How could the author really know?
Seriously?

[Anonymous No.17359718]

>>17357550
It's likely omniscient, and the slipping into first person in the second paragraph could be an example of an audible narrator, but it's the only example I can remember from the book.

[Anonymous No.17359775]

>>17359718
I think there are a few more. McCarthy started writing BM towards the end of Suttree, Suttree also uses the second person narrator in places albeit in a different manner.

[Anonymous No.17359805]

>>17359775
The paragraph from Blood Meridian is in first person
>I looked for blackness.
Sure, there are more instances of second-person pronouns, but these strike me as instances of direct address from the narrator "character," whoever he may be.

[Anonymous No.17359879]

>>17359701
yes seriously

[Anonymous No.17359880]

>>17357550
I thought that section was meant to be the father talking about the kid since it describes the father and says the kid watched him before this. I can see how that could be hard to discern due to the lack of quotation marks.

[Anonymous No.17359891]

>>17359880
That is a likely explanation.

[Anonymous No.17360063]

>>17356388
My interpretation of Blood Meridian is a literaly occult one. Though I do not know if it is fully what McCarthy intended, i take the Jugdge not as Satan or Lucifer but as a bloody handed, Archonic Saturn and a mere earthbound man, but a lusus naturae complete with albinism, nonetheless, simultaneously in much the same way Ahab and Moby Dick were whale and whaler, but beneath their pasteboard masks was a man driven mad by revelation to do battle with misfortune and hardship incarnate. The Kid didnt shoot the Judge because, in the core of his being, he knows it will not work, much the same reason why no hand was raised against the Furies in the Outer Dark, though that is a different matter. Him carrying a Bible and the necklace of ears is multifold like the drawing of an Alchemist splitting an egg with his sword. In holding both he has an object of good and one of evil, and with this state he can operate more or less like any other man. But there is an important distinction, the Bible is impersonal, the Man cannot interact with it or take it into himself, to make it his, because he both cannot read and cannot 'read', in that his time in the gang has marked him. This is why the necklace weighs more, both in his past tied to it making it into a talisman, and because it could have been claimed and taken in by simple, mundane violence, the earthly kind, unlike the Bible, which is inherently metaphysical. This is distinct in much the same way the Judge, in his role, is distinct from Satan, the allusions to Paradise Lost aside, for all his otherworldiness. The knowledge with which he works is not temptation to forsaking God in religious terms, but in wholy primeval ones, such as violence, or in seeking to become suzerain over all by learning and recording it, to make a living world dead, malleable, and static. In a word, counted The Judge does not lie to men and lead them astray to spite God like Satan, he makes men forget they have souls in the first place.

[Anonymous No.17360100]

>>17360063

cool

[Anonymous No.17360544]

>>17360063
Oh wow, an actual good post by an actually well read anon.
Still though, fuck this book's fanbase. Bunch of midwit pseuds.

[Anonymous No.17360583]

dropped the book about 100 pages tho i plan to return to it soon. the writing style is highly divisive to me. On one hand the style makes the book feel like a fever dream which is cool and unique. On the other hand its hard to tell which character is speaking which is frustrating.

[Anonymous No.17360674]

>>17357778
>you barely have an idea of who the protagonist is supposed to be, it's all so vague
Consider reading works more suited to your taste, such as JK Rowling's Harry Potter series.

[Anonymous No.17360825]

>>17359240
>The Judge doesn't really show a taste for any sort of sexual perversion
The historical Judge Holden was literally suspected to be a child rapist.
>Terrible stories were circulated in camp of horrid crimes committed by him when bearing another name in the Cherokee nation in Texas. And before we left Fronteras, a little girl of ten years was found in the chaparral foully violated and murdered. The mark of a huge hand on her little throat pointed out him as the ravisher as no other man had such a hand. But though all suspected, no one charged him with the crime.
It’s obvious McCarthy was alluding to that.

[Anonymous No.17360856]

>>17360063
Interesting. As if he’s the spirit of materialism itself.
>In a word, counted The Judge does not lie to men and lead them astray to spite God like Satan, he makes men forget they have souls in the first place.
Isn’t that what Satan does too, though? After all, materialism is a form of lie about the nature of ultimate reality.

[Anonymous No.17361058]

>>17360856
From a distance, it would appear so, but, to bring out the drum kick, the Devil is in the details. The difference between Satan and the Demiurge, Moloch, Saturn, the list of names known by osmosis, is that Satan never denies the existence of God, his only recourse in tempting man is to lie about the nature of the Divine and that he is better left forsaken. The Demiurgic lie is that God HIMSELF does not exist. The Judge never claims that he is doing battle with God on Earth, but that God is a worldly and yet abstract metaphysical force within the world in war, death, and knowledge vs Lucifer in Paradise Lost. Ironicaly, the difference can be given in example within the one between Church of Lucifer or whatever it is called, edgy athiests which dont have any theology, and actual Satanism and Goetia, which MUST acknowledge God as existing to rebuke him in the first place

[Anonymous No.17361065]

>>17360583
>On the other hand its hard to tell which character is speaking which is frustrating.
The confusion about who's who is part of the charm. The book explores how deeply confusing the world is. That's my opinion. "Where do men come by their notions?" as the anchorite said.

[Anonymous No.17361085]

>>17357212
Kys

[Anonymous No.17361219]

>>17356580
Espero que não tenha lido uma >tradução

[Anonymous No.17361756]

>>17359178
Excellent point, anon. I haven't though that one possible reason for the kid not shooting Holden was not because he was different from him, but because he was much too similar. How could he (or Toadvine for that matter) kill him for the same atrocities that they themselves have committed? By doing that they would have to admit subconsciously that they themselves are monsters that deserve the same fate, and that is way too painful to do. They acted as a group, and their fates are intertwined (like the fortune-teller said, irrc).

>>17359470
Interesting point about group mentality, and the things people can do in a group that they would never do alone, but the kid was always prone to violence and there are at least 2 or 3 instances of him committing extreme acts of violence before joining a group. In the end I believe he always had that inside himself, and always indulged in it, but never allowed it to go completely unchecked (and this is what Holden believes is his great sin, that wasted potential).

>>17359112
Thank you, anon. I prefer the view that The Judge is a supernatural being, I think it allows for more meaningful and interesting interpretations.

>>17361219
Sim, eu li uma tradução. Estou ciente que perdi a maior parte da bela prosa de Mccarthy por ler uma tradução, mas sei que a leitura seria ainda mais travada se eu tivesse que parar a cada instante para checar o dicionário (já fiz isso um bocado mesmo na versão pt-br). Vou tentar perder esse medo de ler livros em inglês com 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' em breve. Um livro que eu quero ler a muito tempo e não existe versão pt-br desde os anos 80...

[Anonymous No.17361783]

>>17361756
Your English seems perfectly fine, anon. I say give it a go.

[Anonymous No.17361939]

>>17360544
>Still though, fuck this book's fanbase. Bunch of midwit pseuds.
Oh, come on. There's no need for such hostility! We're all book reading nerds here. Let's be cordial to one another and celebrate the good things instead of meditating on perceived deficiencies.

[Anonymous No.17361951]

>>17357820
>William Garrison said that it is "a covenant with death, and an agreement with hell."

Garrison was an heroic figure, but his view on the Constitution was very much a minority view in American culture and political life, and even among his fellow abolitionists.

[Anonymous No.17361997]

>>17360674
>Consider reading works more suited to your taste, such as JK Rowling's Harry Potter series.

Well, you have to admit that Voldemort was a far more substantial and terrifying character than the Judge.

[Anonymous No.17362076]

>>17357009
I think a more compelling point would be that death and killing and war and violence are always at their zenith at every instantiation, and thus they will never die because "death and dying are not sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing that is swallowed up in death, and death and dying are the very life of the darkness". Honestly never understood the confusion over the book, the key is to read everything and forget nothing, and only then you are given great literature in all its myriad luster, with questions that dont need answers and answers to all other questions. The book's title literally explains the thesis, where this historical instance and that which has come and will come to violence is the blood meridian, the midway of our vicious circle lies in blood meridians, and the terror afterwards is that maybe no other time shall come where man can raise himself out of the mud to test if his willing heart is not some other form of clay, and if when the blood settles time gives way to further terrors.

[Anonymous No.17362344]

>>17357212
BASED

[Anonymous No.17362673]

The animal cruelty in this novel disturbed me more than anything done to humans.

[Anonymous No.17362679]

>>17356388
>North Kuai island beach 2008
>Dad is sitting next to me reading blood meridian
>I asked him if it was good so far
>he says it's a masterpiece, one of the best american novels of all time
>I read it 10 years later

And the dogs were running underneath the horses and they sometimes rolled and died from the hoofs but the ones that lived ran betwix the houses and came out with a few babies to share between the lot of them and they split this baby in half and then smaller halfs again and it looked as if they were sharing a baby pie

>the book is just high minded balderdash and murder porn
>ok Carmac
>ok Dad
>real American classic alright

[Anonymous No.17362689]

>>17356388
The Judge is Faustian Man

[Anonymous No.17362696]

>>17356854
I think I mostly agree with the first interpretation, but I also believe it's significant that the character's name isn't capitalized; the kid. It makes me think the kid is more a symbolic representation of mankind in general. His rejection of Holden at the end of the novel, therefore, shows that, while we are all capable of "mindless violence," there is hope for us.
>>17357136
Pretty sure the Mexican barman doesn't, but I could be wrong.
>>17356521
>>17356580
Pic related is the best cover, in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.17362717]

>>17361997
For spamming killing curse like a bitch?

[Anonymous No.17362728]

>>17362679
>And the dogs were running underneath the horses and they sometimes rolled and died from the hoofs but the ones that lived ran betwix the houses and came out with a few babies to share between the lot of them and they split this baby in half and then smaller halfs again and it looked as if they were sharing a baby pie.
This pasta got trashed for being low effort zoomer type, anon. Use the "Tortilla squatted"

[Anonymous No.17362769]

>>17362673
No animals were injured or killed during the making of the novel.

[Anonymous No.17362789]

>>17362673
Don't read The Crossing

[Anonymous No.17362793]

>>17362696
>The mother dead these fourteen years did incubate in her own bosom the creature who would carry her off. The father never speaks her name, the child does not know it. He has a sister in this world that he will not see again. He watches, pale and unwashed. He can neither read nor write and in him broods already a taste for mindless violence. All history present in that visage, the child the father of the man.

I think the kid had a very specific upbringing and relationship with his father, and lived through a very specific time and place that shaped the man he would become, so I don't see him as a surrogate for all mankind, but I can see him as hope for redemption and the rejection of Holden's views. He dies because that time and place were the dominion of the Judge, in a way.

>Pic related is the best cover, in my opinion.
that's a pretty good cover, fits the book.

[Anonymous No.17362801]

>>17362769
kek

>>17362789
What is it with Mccarthy and animal abuse?

[Anonymous No.17362834]

>>17362728
tell me the tortilla squatted psata

[Anonymous No.17362889]

>>17359071
>My theory is that Holden was raping and killing children throughout the novel and when possible he tries to corrupt others. I think he made the retard rape that girl in the camp towards the end of the book

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion.

>Similarly he "takes" the kid's soul at the end by making him rape/kill the bear girl.

What? Is there something that supports this theory? To me it's clear that Holden raped and killed the bear girl, but by that time the man was with a prostitute. As far as I understand, the Judge only rapes kids (both boys and girls), so I'm not even sure he raped the man. I also don't see many arguments for extravagant interpretations involving the supernatural, like he ''absorbed him'' or ''took his souls'' (literally or metaphorically). I just went with the most simple, straightforward interpretation: he killed the man in a gruesome, brutal way and his remains were extremely disfigured by the time others find it.

[Anonymous No.17362938]

>>17362889
I meant to say that the kid rapes/kills the bear girl. In a way he finally joins the Judge because it's clear he went to the city for the depravity and prostitutes.
The Judge says that the kid's soul might be taken and to me that 100% means he isn't going to be killed by some super brutal way. It has to mean something else.

[Anonymous No.17362942]

>>17362801
Idk, but for me he has immortalized the Wolf.

[Anonymous No.17362952]

I love the introduction of The Judge. With a few words he turns a large tent of people against a reverend, accusing him of pedophilia and bestiality. The authority and charisma he exudes, the reverend never had a chance...

[Anonymous No.17363007]

>>17362938
I see your point, but I don't like that interpretation. It seems strange that the man would just concede to the judge out of nowhere, with no build up, no explanation, nothing, and commit the most atrocious act possible.

>The Judge says that the kid's soul might be taken
That could mean that he would die that night and his soul would be taken to judgement for all his actions.

[Anonymous No.17363204]

>>17362696
>His rejection of Holden at the end of the novel, therefore, shows that, while we are all capable of "mindless violence," there is hope for us.
I don't see it that way. I think the kid represents the experience of being a witness and participant in confusing and violent events. The kid rejects the judge not out of principle, but confusion and fear. He's clearly afraid of the judge and he doesn't pretend to have any kind of moral principles, though he occasionally feels guilt or shame or compassion and so will show mercy, but only from an emotional feeling, not out of a sense of justice. The kid is our confused experience in life, being witness to and given the opportunity to partake in absurd events we don't really understand.

[Anonymous No.17363222]

>>17360825
I stand corrected.

>>17362938
I don't get why so many people think the kid raped and murdered the bear girl. It just doesn't make sense narratively.

[Anonymous No.17363368]

>>17360063
What is the significance of the long story told about the salesman who is killed, and then his child grows up fatherless to become a "killer of men?"

[Anonymous No.17363382]

>>17360825
Yeah this happened a few times, the other child chained to the wall, found later with a broken neck. The Judge found with two children. It's obvious.

[Anonymous No.17363397]

>>17361058
>edgy athiests

I thought you were smart

[Anonymous No.17363421]

>>17362076
nice

[Anonymous No.17363442]

>>17362942

>Lobo

[Anonymous No.17363446]

CMcC allegedly <redacted> a <redacted> during the <redacted> war and built that as a premise to most of his novels which behave as catharsis confessionals.

[Anonymous No.17363755]

>>17363368
I'm also interested in this. It was the most cryptic part of the book for me...

[Anonymous No.17364385]

>>17363204
I can understand that interpretation, but I think there is significance at the end of the novel when the judge is looking for the kid and calls out; "You alone were mutinous. You alone reserved in your soul some corner of clemency for the heathen." It implies the kid knows mercy, unlike the other outlaws.
>>17362793
Could be, though the line, "All history present in that visage, the child the father of man." seems to contradict it. Either way, I think the hope for redemption is the most important part.
>pretty good cover
It's based off the first edition one.

[Anonymous No.17364401]

>>17363368
>>17363755
I have searched google for explanations of this and it seems to be something about how the saddlemaker was lying about his identity and putting on a false persona, a mask. He tells the story after one of the riders asks him not to make a portrait of him. It has something to do with false representations, and how even good or true representations have a sort of power and draw to them. They can affect the world. Or something, I don't know. It's a bizarre story. Especially how suddenly everyone in the group was putting in their two cents and "correcting" the story, like they had heard it before.

[Anonymous No.17364641]

>>17364385
>Could be, though the line, "All history present in that visage, the child the father of man." seems to contradict it. Either way, I think the hope for redemption is the most important part.

Mccarthy took this line from a poem by Wordsworth. I believe the meaning in the original poem, and in Blood Meridian, is about the man being the direct consequence (or result) of the child. The child the father of the man. Since the kid had a fucked up childhood, he would then turn into a fucked up adult, basically. A bit of foreshadowing to all the things the kid would go through, maybe.

[Anonymous No.17364710]

>>17364401
yeah, it's very intriguing. Did you catch that the boy the man kills at his bonfire in the last chapter is possibly the grandchild of the traveler of that story?

[Anonymous No.17365386]

>>17364641
Interesting, I'm starting to think your interpretation may be correct anon.
As a side, I was reading the Bible and just realized that the line, "hewers of wood and drawers of water," is a reference to the Book of Deuteronomy. I love how McCarthy weaves other literature into his writing.

[Anonymous No.17365427]

>>17364710
Yes actually, just the other day I was listening to the audiobook as read by Richard Poe (which is fucking kino btw) and made that connection. I also realized that the judge reveals Toadvine's name (Louis) at the watering hole, which had confused me because in my googling I read excerpts which introduced him ad Louis Toadvine and didn't know what the hell they were talking about. Check out a book called "Notes on Blood Meridian", it's a collection of essays on various topics.

[Anonymous No.17365682]

>>17365386
Nice catch! Mccarthy does seem to invoke biblical prose in parts like that. What is the deeper meaning I have no idea, thou.

>>17365427
I just listened to one of the Judge's speeches narrated by Richard Poe on YT. I couldn't imagine a more fitting narration.

>I also realized that the judge reveals Toadvine's name (Louis) at the watering hole
I completely missed that, damn!

>Check out a book called "Notes on Blood Meridian", it's a collection of essays on various topics.
that looks very interesting, I will check that for sure. Thanks, anon!

[Anonymous No.17366127]

I’ve got about 80 pages left and I have to be honest I really don’t like this book and it’s so fucking boring I can barely bring myself to finish it. Other than “violence is bad” I haven’t seen what else this book has to say, and the grammar and punctuation make it extremely annoying and borderline unreadable.

Please tell me he last few chapters are worth sticking around for. I’m not reading the rest of the thread because I don’t wanna spoil it in the hopes that it actually does get better.

I really want to like Blood Meridian, but I just feel like I’m reading it wrong or something.

[Anonymous No.17366147]

>>17356851
This. I will literally pay with my first born to get an edition of the book with proper punctuation.

[Anonymous No.17366178]

>>17363368
I do not know, actualy. I think other anons have answered it well enough, but I have not read the book recently enough to dissect that part with an esoteric eye. I guess it is time to change that
>>17363397
I could of course be wrong, and if so please forgive me of my ignorance, but isnt the prime founding concept with LaVeyan Satanism, which, IIRC, is what I cite as edgy athiests, LaVeys time as a tent church organist becoming disgusted with the Christian men present praising God in the morning and going to what amounted to old time strip shows in the evening, and thus that the Christian God himself was a hipocritical lie and that all there was was the will of man dressed in Satanic trappings to reflect this?

[Anonymous No.17366183]

>>17366127
Maybe you aren't into the philosophical diatribes or beautiful description? If you aren't interested in those things then yes this book could be boring. What about the scene where the comanche are riding down on our gang? I don't know how anyone could find that boring.

[Anonymous No.17366216]

>>17366178
>I could of course be wrong, and if so please forgive me of my ignorance, but isnt the prime founding concept with LaVeyan Satanism, which, IIRC, is what I cite as edgy athiests, LaVeys time as a tent church organist becoming disgusted with the Christian men present praising God in the morning and going to what amounted to old time strip shows in the evening, and thus that the Christian God himself was a hipocritical lie and that all there was was the will of man dressed in Satanic trappings to reflect this

Sorry I misunderstood you.

[Anonymous No.17366253]

>>17366127
The last chapter is structured more like a traditional novel. The ending is kinda vague and open to interpretation.

[Anonymous No.17366259]

>>17366183
Yeah the book definitely has its moments, as I have to say McCarthy’s prose lends itself to detailing gratuitous violence extremely well, but those moments to me aren’t enough to stick around for. 90% of the book is describing what the fucking trees look like and the plot just stagnates with superfluous details that don’t mean much to the overall meaning of the book. You almost never get insight into what the kid is thinking despite being the main character, never even know everybody in the gang, and other than the Judge there is literally nothing known about any of the other characters. The members of the gang are so interchangeable that they aren’t worth remembering, they’re so forgetful that McCarthy seems to write in a new one into every chapter anyway.

Also can someone please tell me the philosophical meanings to this book, I’m sick of trying to figure it out myself. Yeah we get it, blowing away hundreds of Indians and taking their scalps is bad, but again that’s just surface level. I literally have no idea what else is in this book. I’m starting to admire more than loath the Judge because he’s he only one we know fuck all about.

[Anonymous No.17366272]

>>17366216
No worries, anon. Have a good evening.

[Anonymous No.17366455]

>>17366259
I don't know what you are hoping to get out of a novel? More action?

[Anonymous No.17366466]

bro the ending is insane you need to finish it wtf ouroboros

[Anonymous No.17366472]

>>17366455
I’m just saying it’s poorly written and hard to understand, from at least my pov

[Anonymous No.17366565]

>>17365682
My mistake. It’s actually from the Book of Joshua, but it’s an old way of saying the lowest class of Hebrew citizen.

[Anonymous No.17366727]

>>17363442
It's "Loba" anon.

[Anonymous No.17366770]

>>17366127
If you found the rest of the book cryptic then the ending isn't going to be better. You don't have to force yourself, it's just a book.

[Anonymous No.17367274]

>>17366259
This isn't really a plot book. Think of it more like an abstract poem. Forget the "plot", it doesn't matter what order they got to Sonora or Nacogdoches or Chihuahua or what the indians they slaughtered called themselves. Who cares, right? A scalp is a scalp, who can tell the difference? Blood Meridian isn't a story book that is there to give you a guided tour of a story from a to z. It's a book about the confusing, absurd human experience. It's about the zenith and the limits of man's powers, his caprices, his will, his enslavement, his destiny. Soak up the prose man, drink it in. Take it easy. Reread chapter 10. That's the volcano chapter. Visualize it. Let yourself be dazzled and awed.

[Anonymous No.17367297]

>>17367274
Not him, but that chapter of Tobin telling the kid how they met the judge is my favorite. And that ending...

>The lad looked at Tobin. What's he a judge of? he said.
>What's he a judge of?
>What's he a judge of.
>Tobin glanced off across the fire. Ah lad, he said. Hush now. The man will hear ye. He's ears like a fox.

Now that's creepy.

[Anonymous No.17367492]

>>17366127
Violence is good actually. Watch MMA