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/lit/ - Literature

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17257064 No.17257064 [Reply] [Original]

Any good non religious literature that'd convince me there's good in humanity?

>> No.17257078

>>17257064
>Any good non religious literature that'd convince me there's good in humanity?
There's none and that's the only sane, realistic, non-delusional conclusion you can come to. If you insist, however, you can check out Transcendentalism I guess.

>> No.17257081

>>17257064
Unironically Camus

>> No.17257082

>>17257078
who hurt you anon :(

>> No.17257084

>>17257064
Start with yourself. If you can manage to be a good man surely there are others. Whether or not you are outnumbered is another story, but at least you tried.

>> No.17257109

>>17257082
The fact that there is no good in humanity (a retarded, meaningless abstraction to begin with) doesn't mean that humanity is inherently positive or negative. There is no reason to put any faith in humanity as an abstract mass of faceless creatures, yet humanity can give rise to both the best and the worst of humans, so humanity should be viewed more as an object to be assorted and structured in the best way possible. The question should be what can we do to give humanity a purpose and thereby make it as ideally "good" as possible, not "is humanity good." Humanity is only good if we make it good, yet my point still stands that it is a meaningless abstraction. No one should be focused on humanity itself, or trying to "empower" those who just aren't meant to be empowered. Humanity should be a support structure for the superior individuals who can transcend it and its inherent meaninglessness.

>> No.17257110

>>17257064
The Plague by Camus

Made me return to the frontline job I had left just prior to Covid to help out

>> No.17257123
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17257123

>>17257109
>Humanity should be a support structure for the superior individuals who can transcend it and its inherent meaninglessness.

>> No.17257128

>>17257123
It's funny because I was smoking a cigar as I typed that. Laugh all you want, I stand by it

>> No.17257139

>>17257109
Cringe abstract thinking. In reality this doesn't lead to any good. This is the sort of thinking that leads to communism and other ideological evils.

>> No.17257144

>>17257128
Oh, don't worry. I'm laughing.

>> No.17257145

>>17257139
>Cringe abstract thinking.
You didn't really understand my post then.
>This is the sort of thinking that leads to communism and other ideological evils.
The "system" I just explained would be explicitly opposed to ideology and other mass movements. In fact, it's hard to even call it a system because it's far more organic than that and is not based around the typical ideological principles and orthodoxy.

>> No.17257182

>>17257145
Do you really think it hasn't been tried in thousands of years of human civilization? Do you really think you are the first one to come up with the idea?
Humans have tried everything already and failed, only to realize what OP struggles with: that we are inherently wicked. Aka, the original sin.

>> No.17257196

>>17257145
The "system" you proposed is basically just capitalism. The problem here is who defines 'superior' individuals. I don't trust anyone to make that distinction, that's how we get into the current political climate we have now where complete morons and demons rule the world. 'Humanity' should be a support structure for itself, not 'superior' individuals. No one can agree on who is 'superior' and who is 'inferior'. This will always lead to some 'side' of a political spectrum dominating and then eventually losing power and then the pendulum will swing in favor of the opposite side which leads to a left wing/right wing dichotomy even though both left and right wing parties don't actually serve the people. You can argue about who is and isn't inferior all day long but there will always be someone who disagrees unless we live in a state of complete hegemony and indoctrination, so for your system of great men rising to the top and poor men being disregarded to work effectively the majority of human beings would be allowed no rights or freedom of thought which would quickly lead to stagnation. These are the ideas that lead to the failed and retarded ideology of fascism.

>> No.17257205

>>17257182
>Humans have tried everything already and failed,
Nothing lasts forever. Some things have worked very well and gradually crumbled for one reason or another; failing noble stock, mixing of the castes, etc. There is certainly no "perfect system." I'm not really interested in arguments based on defeatism so there's not much point going any further than this.

>> No.17257219

>>17257081
>>17257110
just keep coping bro xD

>> No.17257224

>>17257219
t. teenager

>> No.17257228

>>17257196
The "system" I proposed is closer to Ancient Roman aristocracy honestly, yet it could appear in any outward form. And there is no need to define anything (this is what ideologues and philosophers can't wrap their heads around), the cream floats to the top in an environment that is of the correct "consistency" so to speak. An environment that is conducive to heroism in war, masculine vitality, self-restraint, intelligence and sacrifice, along with a strictly pragmatic view of humanity and the various potentials of different people, can't fail to be "good", regardless of the outer form it takes (which would be most likely to be some sort of warrior aristocracy nevertheless).

>> No.17257275

>>17257228
>The "system" I proposed is closer to Ancient Roman aristocracy
That system was formed organically by way of the sheer hardness of character the ancient world forged in men. You cannot create such a system artificially. Nazis tried, and they not only failed but also made things worse.
If you can't change yourself as to become a man such the ones that made up Ancient Roman aristocracy, then you have no business talking about creating such a system. Systems do not make men. Men make systems.

>> No.17257314

>>17257275
>Systems do not make men.
This is an oversimplification, and you know you're wrong here. Of course, systems don't "make" men, but they certainly (and in a broad idea of a "system", ie not just political systems) allow them to realize their inherent potential. Certain conditions can allow the flourishing of a certain type and the rotting away of a certain type. Some will still flourish and rot in either type to various extents, but it's entirely a matter of proportion and extent.
>Nazis
The Nazis only failed because they were directly pitted against most of the planet. They're not really relevant to this discussion at all, we can't gain anything from an analysis of them if we're concerned with practical effectiveness unit for unit.
>That system was formed organically by way of the sheer hardness of character the ancient world forged in men
Not quite true. There were feminine "mother civilisations" all the same which were almost polar opposites to the Roman ethos. The Etruscans were a weak example of that. And anyway, I think you should understand by now that I am putting forth an ideal organicity. All we can do right now is attempt to shape the circumstances and propitiousness of a certain ideal type, and not much else given that our current system is designed to favour money-making and capital.

>> No.17257357

>>17257275
>Men make systems.
Also, you're using "man" in the same way as "humanity" was used in the OP. We're already beyond this stupid abstraction; "men" or "humanity" is effectively meaningless.

>> No.17257368

>>17257228
The ancient Romans were decadent and hedonistic, I wouldn't say that the good men and the good ideas all floated to the top. More like that good ideas persevered even in a shitty environment. In many ways the Romans are similar to modern America, they were so focused on decadence and novelty that they neglected everything else and atrocities became the norm. Fucking kids was common practice.

>>17257314
>The Nazis only failed because they were directly pitted against most of the planet.
Yeah, and that's because fascism is an ideology that attracts wicked people who do dumb shit like try to take on the entire planet.

>>17257357
What a stupid sentiment. It's not meaningless just because you say it is. No one here has prescribed themselves to that middle school tier idea. Words don't cease to have meaning because you can't grasp their meaning. Abstraction is a necessary part of language that you clearly don't understand because you're to dull to perceive any nuance.

>> No.17257388

>>17257064
Read The Lord of the Rings

>> No.17257390

personally, i read books about terrible things so i gain a greater appreciation for goodness. appreciating and creating goodness in the world comes after knowing the alternative

>> No.17257398

>>17257314
Ok, what I see is I don't disagree with you on the idea of what an ideal society would be. I also think the Ancient Roman system built on the "pater-familias" style family unit is the ideal social order.
What I doubt is man's capacity to bring forth that system. Man is too wicked, too selfish. We are not ruled by reason, but by the predatory selfish desires of the powerful which does not align with the system you and I envision. It is not that humans lack the intellectual capacity to bring it forth, its that they would rather be selfish.
How do you solve this problem?

>> No.17257423

>>17257390
>in a way, evil point to good, by pointing in its opposite direction
You'll like this
https://youtu.be/vl3A87-iVj4
Check it out.

>> No.17257429

>>17257368
>The ancient Romans were decadent and hedonistic
they did become significantly decadent later on, which led to their fall
>Yeah, and that's because fascism is an ideology that attracts wicked people who do dumb shit like try to take on the entire planet.
not quite that simple, but they were aggressive and not quite the ideal type (not most of them at least). the nazis were not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. with respect specifically to "taking on the world", much of it was realpolitik which is not really worth going into here. suffice it to say, it's not quite as simple as germany randomly declaring war on everyone for no strategic purposes (some of which were actually defensive, in the form of pre-emptive attack, when taking the quantitively superior and developing ussr into account)
>What a stupid sentiment. It's not meaningless just because you say it is
is there a single worthy answer of what the meaning of humanity is? is humanity good? bad? do you have a justifiable answer? what valuable meaning is there in humanity? if you can answer this question satisfactorily i will admit i am a 25 year old teenager

>> No.17257463

>>17257423
okay, i'll watch it

>> No.17257499

>>17257128
how's the transcending going, Raskolnikov?

>> No.17257512

>>17257064
Edgelord.

>> No.17257546
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17257546

>>17257398
You have to stop thinking in terms of "man" first of all. There are plenty of decent men and plenty of not so decent, but most of them are mediocre and lack any "supreme center" to push themselves towards anything (this is arguably the "meaningful" aspect of "humanity" if there is one). All of them lean back into just doing what works for them (essentially pushing the pleasure button so to speak), yet this isn't to say they are necessarily formless and selfish. I think pic related actually describes the situation reasonably well in the modern context, yet it is slightly too pessimistic on the materialism of "man." Anyway, these types are those that are "born to follow" because they have no "supreme center" in themselves, they have to find it outside of themselves (which only exists in capital accumulation in the present world, or mundane hobbies which are relatively easy and riskless). This is kinda related to what Ted Kaczynski called surrogate activities.

What we need is a sudden upset to shake the petrification of the current environment up, which will allow the cream that is trapped to coagulate at the top using the old analogy. This is what happened in Weimar, but due to the quick and chaotic nature there is no guarantee of the upset going any particular way, and it relies on certain types being both extant and capable of directed action when the time arises. Nietzsche stated that the world of the last man might be too barren for the generation and actualisation of the Übermensch, which is the potential problem we face. I am capable of fighting and serving, but I am not much of a leader, so there is little I can do personally.

>> No.17257567

>>17257064
what does "good in humanity" mean? what do you think of when saying these words? what could it be and how could it be proven?

>> No.17257596

>>17257499
Now that you mention it, it's crazy how similar to Raskolnikov he thinks.

>> No.17257806

The Plague by Albert Camus.

>> No.17257886

>>17257064
You’re supposed to have faith in God, not faith in humanity

>> No.17257974

>>17257886
I dont believe in what i cannot see.

>> No.17258085

>>17257224
Camus is literally teenager tier philosophy. You would understand this if you were smart.

>> No.17258090

>>17257974
>doesn't believe in numbers
lmao

>> No.17258269

>>17257064
The Moral Animal
You will understand what good is possible and how to define it. Unfortunately it is all conditional and "good" is relative. Humans are simply animals and inside each one a potential murderer

>> No.17258506

>>17258090
I dont.

>> No.17258612

>>17258085
What is adult tier philosophy?

>> No.17259070

>>17257546
STORM THE CAPITOL!!!

>> No.17259087

>>17257109
Someone is like the white dude in the Cormac McCarthy book. You know, the one where the black guy tries to stop him from offing himself?

>> No.17259105

>>17258612
nietzsche, derrida

>> No.17259130

>>17257110
>>17257081
cringe...

>> No.17259137

>>17259105
lmao

>> No.17259163
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17259163

>>17257064
humanity is not inherently """good""" but it sure is cool and I want to sex em epic style

>> No.17259211

>>17257314
the nazis failed because they where a bunch of esoteric idealist krautist schizos

>> No.17259225

>>17257064
The Dispossessed, Terra Ignota