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/lit/ - Literature

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17209681 No.17209681 [Reply] [Original]

> just do nothing bro. be like water!

> just follow tradition and do what you're told kid.

Why is Chinese """philosophy""" so shallow?

>> No.17209690
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17209690

>when baizuo mixes up taoism and confucianism

>> No.17209715

>>17209690
>when baizuo think confucianism and daoism are opposed traditions

>>17209681
blame white people and immigrants for misinterpreting the texts, neither are that shallow but English is a shitty language

>> No.17209718

>>17209715
>when baizuo think confucianism and daoism are opposed traditions
Retard

>> No.17209720

>>17209715
>actually taking the bait

>> No.17209724
File: 284 KB, 800x556, chwang.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17209724

>>17209715
>when baizuo hasnt even read a basic taoist work dunking on confucius for half its length

>> No.17209735

>>17209724
Not a refutation of Confucius, it's somewhat satirical. Also romanized spelling is Zhuangzi
>>17209718
Argument?

>> No.17209758

I’ve said it before I’ll say it again. Only westerners think that the Tao te ching+ Chuang tzu are a kind of taoist Bible. Taoism is titanic and laozi/chuang should be considered more akin to a Plato and Aristotle than a moses/christ. In fact ge Hong absolutely denies the authenticity of the Tao te ching. Taoism has three major divisions, philosophical, religious and alchemical. Philosophical Taoism intertwines the most with these other two beginning with Liezi, but all three have major schools which do not even synthesize with each other.

There’s taoist schools which aren’t even apophantic, which focus solely on the worship of the celestial bureaucracy. And then you have to consider how these relate to the “ritual societies “ which are called Faism/Fajiao which have absolutely no real connection with what you consider Taoism.

The syncretism with Confucianism, Buddhism and even Hinduism is case dependent upon which schools and traditions you go to. There are schools which try to stay utterly pure and others which try to unify completely.

It is a great and common mistake to assume Taoism is monolithic. The majority of it in practice is as ritualistic, worship based, spirit worshipping and so forth as folk Hinduism if not more so

>> No.17209779

>>17209758
Better understanding than some of my seminar professors. Post recommended reading list

>> No.17209788

>>17209735
>Also romanized spelling is Zhuangzi
Kek, look at this faggot trying to insist on his preferences. Read a taoist, bitch

>> No.17209800

>>17209758
You're wrong every time you say it so continue wasting your time. Yes, we are all aware that degenerate chinks added a bunch of ritual and nonsense on top of the philosophy espoused in those books. Unlike you we give that no credence because we have read the books at the root of it and realize that they undermine any kind of system you try and hang on them.

>> No.17209814

>>17209715
Indian, Greek, Roman, Japanese, Persian and Arabic philosophical traditions can all convey their meanings in the shitty language but Chinkspeak is a special little Princess that can only be conveyed in its own language

>> No.17209816

>>17209800
Completely wrong and arbitrary, there isn't even a genuine Daodejing for you to refer to. Victor Mair's appeal to archeological authority doesn't count. Hope they post a reading list because they know what they are talking about

>> No.17209833

>>17209779
If you know Chinese or have a friend that can help translate, ABSOLUTELY read the Daozang(it’ll be difficult even with knowledge of Chinese due to the age of the text)
Obviously you want laozi, Liezi and chuang Tzu.

For alchemical purposes I would recommend “ Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality” which I know sounds horrible, but it’s just a title, it’s actually a translation of a Taoist manual designed to take you from basically ignorance to adepthood with alchemy. I would also recommend.

Also the alchemical classic “understanding reality” is very good as an introduction.

But chief among the alchemical and metaphysical literature is ge Hong’s baopuzi especially the inner chapters (which there haven’t been new translations of for years but it does exist in translation.) his traditions of divine transcendence is also a phenomenal read.

I would also recommend the divine farmer’s classic of materia medica and also the Classic of Mountains and Seas.

Finally for purely ritual purposes I would recommend two pieces of literature.

The taoist master chuang which is a scholars work who was taught, first half of the book explains lineages and how he came to such knowledge second half is a grimoire tier explanation of how they actually work their magic with seals and how to draw and everything.

Also “mao Shan, tradition of great purity” is another excellent ritual-meditative text.

For pure meditation I would recommend the secret of the golden flower and the Zuowanglun

>> No.17209840

>>17209816
See how fixated you are on words? "The words have to be genuine!!!!!!!" You dont understand the first thing (literally, the first line) about this field of knowledge. No wonder you think things like rituals can somehow be compatible with it.

>> No.17209848

>>17209690

OP here, I didn't mix them up, I'm discussing them as separate traditions.

>> No.17209847

>>17209833
Thanks, I have a basic understanding of wenyan and have read through the DDJ but I'm specifically interested in where you got your sources on integrative history, books on celestial bureaucracy etc. Stuff in modern Chinese language is fine too

>> No.17209850

>>17209800
Again you can fully believe that and there’s people who try to stay in a purely early philosophical Taoism framework. But Taoism as a historical entity and as a major philosophy and religion is simply not that static. I won’t argue the point because it shall not profit either of us, since your mind has been made up that Taoism is just your special westernized “protestant” Taoism. If this is your belief, so be it. Take it and have it.

>> No.17209855

>>17209850
Thoughts on Legge?

>> No.17209863

>>17209847
Ge Hong and books more centered on the mythic/religious Taoism are what you’re after friend.

>> No.17209874

>>17209850
>specialized western protestant taoism
What meaningless gibberish. It's pretty clear that you've invested your ego in being the "expert" on the "historical entity" of taoism at the expense of any fundamental understanding of what taoism is; no wonder you tripfag, attention whore that you evidently are.

>> No.17209877

>>17209863
Thx

>> No.17209883

>>17209855
Fine for his time and still worth the read but understand there’s been major developments in translation. If you can get a newer and non-new agey translation that will usually be superior.

>> No.17209895

>>17209758
>Only westerners think that the Tao te ching+ Chuang tzu are a kind of taoist Bible
This is a result of Protestant Missionaries coming to China and being completely lost in the woods when faced with the enormous pile of autism that is the Chinese intellectual tradition. The entire Abrahamic intellectual framework comes down to quibbling about passages from a single text (or arguing over the authenticity of a text) so when faced with Taoism they just had no fucking clue what to do.

I'd go so far as to say that Taoism is better thought of as just an intellectual component of Chinese Folk Religion. Realistically, we shouldn't be talking about "Taoism" at all, and instead should be talking about what individual thinkers thought.

>> No.17209902

>>17209874
Again. If you prefer your Taoism to be based on your Taoism “Bible” which was never considered alone in isolation in Chinese history, go ahead. I won’t stop you or argue with you. Enjoy yourself.

>> No.17209907

>>17209883
Any materials regarding this translation development? I found an article but it seemed like an ad hominem

>> No.17209917

>>17209681
somehow this philosophy you have so much
contempt is a backbone of a society that will lead us to the new century and will destroy American hegemony, go figure

>> No.17209924

>>17209895
That’s pretty agreeable that you could say Taoism is like saying Hinduism; a massively loosely connected tradition connected by strains of various texts and local traditions some intellectual some folk and so forth. It’s far more comparable to the entirety of Hinduism than say Judaism.

Don’t get me wrong there’s been attempts at systemization but even then.

The daozang isn’t even translated TODAY. That’s as close to a Taoist “Bible” as you’ll get.

>> No.17209935

>>17209681
reminder that no one in this thread has been able to refute OP

>> No.17209937

>>17209902
You're arguing with me incessantly because I'm the only one not bowing down to the altar of pseud knowledge you try and construct for yourself. The historical developments of cults appropriating the name of taoism does not equate to what taoism is; all this knowledge you've accumulated is a trite historical sequence, and would be better suited for /his/, if you could cut it there. Your insistence on using the word Bible (nobody else is) probably speaks to a psychological inferiority complex you have with regards to religion, must be what drives you to feign expertise

>> No.17209948

>>17209895

But this is what I mean when I say I think laozi should be more considered like Plato and Taoism as large as, ya know, the collective Greek traditions, whether philosophical, mystery traditions, alchemical, occult. Etc. seeing Plato as the Bible of all Greek traditions is about the same level of wrong as saying the Tao te ching is all of what falls under the category Taoism.

>>17209907
Nothing in particular, I’m going based off of various articles and side by side comparison and also some help by Chinese friends.

>> No.17209951

>>17209937
>Your insistence on using the word Bible (nobody else is) probably speaks to a psychological inferiority complex you have with regards to religion, must be what drives you to feign expertise
on the one hand we have a tripfag and on the other hand we have an armchair psychologist
I can't figure out which is worse

>> No.17209956

>>17209681
read Zhuangzi you fucking plebeian
>>17209735
half-satirical but also clearly sets out to refute Confucian and Mohist tenets i think

>> No.17209961

>>17209937
You keep replying and trying to insult while I continue to tell you to continue as you are. It is because you cannot inflame to anger that you continue. Once more, carry on. You’re free to believe what you consider to be Taoism as isolated from the historical reality is the sum totality of Taoism.

>> No.17209967

>>17209951
At least Frater for his pretensions is trying to illuminate something, you're just a slug leaving a slime trail in the thread, much worse than he is

>> No.17209979

>>17209967
seethe more
you will never be a real psychologist
no, anon, phenomenology doesn't count either

>> No.17209984

>>17209961
Yeah I know I'm free to assert the truth, that's why I keep doing so as you these faggoty little jabs and dodges, revealing that in truth you want conformity and compliance, and the last word of it all, while appearing to be conciliatory. Unlike you my aggression is overt and not passive

>> No.17209985

Although Daoism clearly is intrinsically ritualistic and cultic, question is if one should consider the Zhuangzi something that was written within that framework, or a separate piece of literature that utilized Daoist perspectives that was 'appropriated' by Daoists

>> No.17209992

>>17209681
chinese people are insects

>> No.17209994

>>17209948
I feel like on the one hand the critique of Protestantism is valid, but there is too much of an inclination to against Abrahamism in this field. Nestorian Stele etc do provide some basis for Abrahamic religion in China. I would be interested to see if there is any indigenous admixture between Christianity (perhaps from the Khanate) and Chinese indigenous religion. I feel Legge has been the victim of unnecessary progressivism. I have a copy of his Daodejing and it is remarkable even by modern standards how meticulously he documents his translation. I received pretty significant pushback trying to use one of Legge's translations (which more clearly expressed the specific author I was writing about) and found it unreasonable - especially as I was provided no reason why he is seen as so terrible to use. I'm a noob and I can't really fight that battle right now. I would say, don't discount Legge or even protestant missionaries despite it being the trendy thing to do. You're still right that the Daodejing and Zhuangzi are not The Bible of Daoism and that more work should be done in order to explain that to students from the beginning

>> No.17209997

>>17209690
>>17209715
>>17209718
>>17209724
>when baizuo unironically uses the term baizuo

>> No.17209998

>>17209681
perfect conditioning for the NPC chink mind

>> No.17210007

>>17209979
Kek, I'll keep correctly identifying your personality traits while you cry more, bitch. "real psychologist" lmao what did you even think that meant

>> No.17210013

>>17209997
you are the one person who calls everyone else a newfag for using the term newfag

>> No.17210022

>>17210007
cope

>> No.17210028

>>17210022
check'd double dubs of truth

>> No.17210035

>>17209994
Oh no no there’s definitely a synthesis of Christianity with Taoism in nestorianism and I myself am a protestant (among other things) I am solely speaking of the tendency that westerners assume because of our traditions that every religion must have one singular holy text, so we assume that the Torah is Judaism, the Bible is Christianity, the Koran is Islam and the Tao te ching is the entirety of Taoism.

>>17210007
Wrong person friend.

>> No.17210038
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17210038

>>17210022
As usual, I've dismantled a faggot to the point he's barely verbal

>> No.17210041

>>17210035
>Wrong person friend.
I know exactly who I'm replying to since you tripfag, tripfag. Here's you angling once more for the "last word" as correctly identified here >>17209984

>> No.17210049

>>17210035
Yes I agree with you, but I have come across people who are genuinely hostile against Abrahamic religion in this field. Regrettably, questioning this rarely leads to productive conversations

>> No.17210050

>>17209984
I have no aggression towards strangers on the internet, honestly. Again you’re free to believe that Taoism stripped of everything that makes it a world religion is the true Taoism and that the majority of Chinese taoists weren’t actual taoists. I am not being aggressive by pointing this out while saying it’s fine, I am simply stating the reality of it and you find it offensive because you find the reality to be offensive, so be it, enough derailing of the thread with petty arguments.

>> No.17210052

after reading this thread, maybe you guys should be more like water

>> No.17210059

>>17210052
Based

>> No.17210066

>>17209681
Kyoto

>> No.17210071

>>17210038
keep consoling yourself

>> No.17210150

Actually the real Taoism was Tengrism all along.

>> No.17210259

>>17209715
Tonal language is garbage though.

>> No.17210421

>>17210259
wenyan isn't tonal

>> No.17210447

>>17210421
what about the poetry, i thought they had strict rules about character placement and usage depending on the tones

>> No.17210505

>>17209681
“The bad scholar will laugh at the Dao”

retroactively btfo’d by lao tzu (pbuh)

>> No.17210654

>>17209681
Overpopulation.

>> No.17211068

>>17209681
All of eastern philosophy is pretty coping about living in a totalitarian regime and either doing your duties like a good little bugmen or not caring about your meaningless existence.

>> No.17211248

>>17209690
>>17209715
a very serious daoist (incredibly pretentious and supercilious) prof once overheard me conflate a confucius story for being a Zhuang Zhi story.
He just exclaimed
>No, that's Confucius!
and then had the greatest smile on his face.
We've been friends ever since.
it was an honest mistake

>> No.17211396

>>17211068
Sounds like a good thing for Americans to read then if they don't want to be sad for the rest of their lives then.

>> No.17211475

>>17209917
Is Taoism being pushed by the communist party? Is it relevant in mainstream China?

>> No.17211489

Anyone know if the colection of taoist classics by Thomas Cleary are a good translation of the material?

>> No.17211508

>>17211475
are you retarded?

>> No.17212088

>>17209735
Zhuangzi is just pinyin, Chuang Tsu is Wade-Giles, both acceptable

>> No.17212465
File: 24 KB, 260x276, Stirner.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17212465

>>17211396
Owned

>> No.17213402

>>17211508
Maybe? I don't know a whole lot about China. I know the state is very anti-religion/mysticism. They are also very careful on what philosophies are approved. So just because it's from China doesn't mean the government will allow it/promote it. Especially if they think it will undermine their authority.

>> No.17213454

>>17209833
Do you have a translator's name for the Ge Hong's book? All I can find is 'To Live as Long as Heaven and Earth: A Translation and Study of Ge Hong's Traditions of Divine Transcendents Volume 2"

>> No.17213507

>>17213454
Correct for that work but the baopuzi translation you want is by James R. Ware

You can probably find it under “Alchemy, medicine, and religion in the China of A.D. 320 : the Nei pʻien of Ko Hung (Pao-pʻu tzu) / translated & edited by James R. Ware“

>> No.17213533

>>17213454
http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=C774D46BA327AE36B18579830CDEF4B9

>> No.17213700

>>17209833
I see a book on Kindle called
>Taoist Yoga: The Sexual Teachings of the Ancient Chinese Masters (Rider classics)
By Charles Luk

Is that the same one?

>> No.17213839

>>17213700

Nah this is the one you want

https://esotericawakening.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Taoist-Yoga-Alchemy-and-Immortality.pdf

>> No.17213903

>>17213839
Thanks dawg

Living in Hong Kong but sadly daoism doesn't seem to be a big thing here

>> No.17213921

>>17209681
Because it's written by Chinese people

>> No.17214020

>>17213903
I got into Taoism due to how many taoists were in queens and In Chinatown, from what I understand a large number of religious taoists fled from China to the USA for both economic and religious purposes. Like I know multiple taoist temples here.

>> No.17214050

fuck off changs

>> No.17214072

>>17214020
There are very few here, it's a very unspiritual city. Weirdly the main vajrayana centres seem to be run by a Dutch guy and are attended mainly by expats, it's not a big thing for locals

Apparently OTO sent over Lon Milo Duquette to do some tarot talk here a few years back, can't imagine why they thought HK was suitable for it

Are you initiated into any daoist lineages, or is that a thing for daoism?