Aesthetics

[Anonymous No.17164990]

/lit/, is there a technical term for in aesthetics for the appreciation of beauty that almost hurts? I've always felt this almost painfully deep longing whilst looking at certain things. Not attaching politics to this of course. I just mean I have this feeling of, "How is that even possible?" I've always had the impression I'm more affected than others. Take these photos I took in Prague for example. I almost don't want to look at these photos combined because they're so beautiful. It's not just religious imagery though, it extends to multiple things.

[Anonymous No.17164993]

>>17164990
And before anyone says it, it's not sensory overload or fragility. I'm not actually quivering or unable to process it. I'm just awed. I just keep thinking, "How is it possible, it's almost too good."

[Anonymous No.17165225]

I reckon you got brain damage

[Anonymous No.17165329]

>>17165225
Sigh. Just fuck off if you have nothing to add you toxic little rat. So sick of this board. Trying to have a normal conversation.

[Anonymous No.17165359]

>>17164990
>>17164993
What things you find 'ugly'?

[Anonymous No.17165374]

>>17165329
sigh... like... oh my gosh, sisturr. im just tots trying to have a normal convo, P L E A S E

[Anonymous No.17165571]

>>17164990
Sublime?

[Anonymous No.17165599]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy)

[Anonymous No.17165616]

>>17164990
based I feel the same sometimes, yeah sublime is a pretty good definition, this also qualifies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_feeling
Hope you'll find this scene as beautiful as I did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMCp_9udHjA

[Anonymous No.17165671]

>>17164990
You were not exaggerating OP. I get goosebumps and tingles crawling up my skull just by looking at it. Whatever inspires such an otherwise base creature as man to create that must be both True and Good.
I’ll leave you a quote which your picture reminded me of:
>”You need beauty in your life. If you don’t have beauty in the higher things you’re gonna seek it in the lower things. One of the most beautiful things is the female body, so it becomes the fixation of people who don’t have beauty in their culture.“
>>17165571
Is right. Sublime is the word. Sublime beauty.

[Anonymous No.17166433]

I've read Scruton's Beauty and am aware of the term and its separateness from Beauty, but I'm not entirely sure that what I'm describing falls under the Sublime. I'd say I experienced the Sublime when I walked by myself in the Scottish Highlands on a blustery winter day and I actually teared up and got goosebumps upon coming up to this (see photo). It was a 2 hour walk in a valley to reach a remote corrie and loch. That falls under the traditional feeling of the Sublime since it relates to nature and to the elevated spirit. But I'm almost talking about a lesser version of that. I just mean I have this intense appreciation even for things like single statues or paintings. It doesn't need to be on such a high level. I'm doing a terrible job at explaining this. I might elaborate later on.

[Anonymous No.17166451]

>>17166433

[Anonymous No.17166459]

>>17165616
Thanks for the wiki article. Hadn't come across that before. Very interesting.

[Anonymous No.17166477]

>>17166433
Is that the Black Cuillin?

[Anonymous No.17166491]

>>17165374
Ugh.

[Anonymous No.17166511]

>>17164990
I used to be like you, I remember going out to the park by myself as a teenager and just being amazed at the details on the tree barks, and the flowers, and all the strange patterns and colors in them, so much so people would look at me and think I was autistic. Which fair enough, I probably was.


Anyhow, at some point, whether due to brain damage or dwelling too long in Nihilism. I stopped giving a fuck.

[Anonymous No.17166556]

>>17166477
Nah, that's in Skye. That's at a place on the mainland called Creag Meagaidh.

[Anonymous No.17166565]

>>17166511
That's unfortunate.

[Anonymous No.17166619]

>>17166511
Side effects of loss of innocence.

[Anonymous No.17166634]

>>17166565
>>17166619
On the bright side, I no longer have anxiety attacks when going out due to sensory overload, so there's that.

[Anonymous No.17166644]

Become Catholic if that church had such an effect on you - we get to have that feeling every Sunday.

[Anonymous No.17166697]

>>17166634
I already said though, I'm not having sensory overload or anything. I'm not innocent and I'm not a teenager. We're not describing the same thing.

[Anonymous No.17166739]

This is an example that's below mountains (Sublime) but above flowers for me. At the risk of incurring comments about reactionaries... This is just a single work of art, but to me it's so austere and beautifully crafted that it almost makes the world around me feel worse. Why can't more things be like this? Austere, subtle, archaic, respectful, etc. I'm not religious although I do appreciate religious imagery and meanings of course.

[Anonymous No.17166782]

>>17166511
Same, I still like comfy aesthetics but I no longer put this "godliness" or "meaningfulness" in any of it.

[Anonymous No.17166802]

>>17166739
Not sure what is "austere" or "subtle" about a marble statue

[Anonymous No.17166813]

>>17166782
>I no longer put this "godliness" or "meaningfulness" in any of it.
Why have you given up meaning and forgotten God?

[Anonymous No.17166847]

>>17166619
Any ways to avoid it? Or to grow innocence inside oneself? I am starting to sense the loss and it does not feel good.

[Anonymous No.17166862]

>>17166802
The image is clearly austere. Subtle relative to everything in modern culture. It's an old king sitting in contemplation.

[Anonymous No.17166880]

>>17166847
>>17166813
>>17166782
Op here. I've never been religious. I don't agree with most religious tenets. But that doesn't mean you can't appreciate beautiful works of art. The images and photos I've been sharing matter more to me than most mundane modern things. I used to despite theists until I grew out of that around 22. I'm now 27. I've only gotten more and more interest in religious art and literature over time. I just can't accept that there's a god, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the insanely beautiful and skilful works humans create.

[Anonymous No.17166903]

>>17166862
Still not seeing what you mean

[Anonymous No.17166942]

>>17164990
Faggotry and pretentiousness are the terms you are looking for

[Anonymous No.17166951]

>>17166880
Strangely enough what I have found is that the more I felt the loss of innocence the more I longed for faith and I went from a Spinoza type monist back to Christianity (I am born Orthodox). I just thought whether my longing for faith and Christian aesthetics was merely a coping mechanism or that religion is the path to regain innocence.
Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
I keep thinking of this passage over and over and brings me hope

[Anonymous No.17166988]

>>17166942
I've been trying to figure out how to respond to this for a while. All I'll say if I feel genuinely sorry for you that you felt you had to tell me that I'm a pretentious "faggot" on an anonymous image board. Worse is that you think beautiful things are pretentious and homosexual. Why are you even here? Grow up.

[Anonymous No.17167005]

>>17166847
>Any ways to avoid it?
Yes. Stop doing anything that transgresses the Moral Law. Observe the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments as best as you can. Stop masturbating if you still do.
>Or to grow innocence inside oneself?
This issue is more complicated and there are conflicting views on it. Some believe you confess your sins and are good to go. Others believe you should either do penance or suffer enough to be purified. See:
>The effeminate world refuses to accept the bitter means of Christian mortification to heal the illnesses of the spirit. It is precisely mortification which heals the "things of the earth" (Phil.3, 19) and the inclinations which wound man's soul and lead to perdition. By means of mortification we pay, already on this earth, the temporal punishments which we have deserved because of our sins. Mortification raises our soul to heavenly realities and enables it to be united to God.
Finally, there is a still more tragic view on the matter:
>And be the stern and sad truth spoken, that the breach which guilt has once made into the human soul is never, in this mortal state, repaired.

[Anonymous No.17167020]

>>17166951
I'll be honest and say I feel like an outsider most days. Most of the beautiful imagery, literature, architecture I see is somehow based of Christianity or another religion. I just can't do it. I can't take the leap of faith. I've never been religious. It's painful because I feel like religious imagery, outside of nature, whether it's Christian or otherwise, is one of the only things I can turn to fulfil my need to contemplate better and higher things. I just don't fundamentally believe we're anything more than evolved apes. Certain music and art makes me think otherwise, but it's a rare feeling. In my opinion, modern aesthetics are so bad and ill fitting to my soul that I seem to be taking refuge in older art and music.

[Anonymous No.17167025]

>>17166951
>>17166619
"Innocence" is a meme

[Anonymous No.17167089]

>>17167025
t. guilty conscience

[Anonymous No.17167113]

>>17167005
thank you anon, hope that the last paragraph is not true and guilt will at some point leave. I do feel at peace during the liturgy like nothing else though, I feel as if I came back to it so tired and exhausted by guilt that I have lost innocence to the point at which I am back to being innocent if that makes sense lol. Like an eternal return to church
>>17167020
I understand that, how about the actual theology of the faith? Maybe familiarizing closer with the scripture the beauty will become closer for you? It has been so for me. Although I am trying to understand the philosophy and theology behind the faith, I am still far of having even decent understanding of it. The more I read the scripture the more complex it gets too, but I am trying hard not to give up on it.

[Anonymous No.17167185]

>>17167113
Thanks for understanding. The problem I have though is that since I'm an outsider--I've never been to a church service and don't have religious parents or friends--I just don't take the scriptures seriously as anything divine. They're incredible works of literature, but I couldn't believe them, so it'd be pointless. Maybe you'll say that because I'm not reading them is why I can't believe and if I just committed to it... Well, maybe. The thing that I just can't get behind, however, is the idea of specificity. Christianity is just one religion out of many. I've heard it said before that the "one religion argument out of many" doesn't stand up, but for me it does. I can't bring myself to even read the bible because I know that there are thousands of other religions. Comparative mythology exists. There are so many parallels around the world. For some that might be proof of the divine, but for me it clearly shows that humans need the divine and it's all manmade. Why would I believe what bronze age people set down in Israel and not the religion of my own land, that of Celtic polytheism thousands of years ago? I could go on but you get the idea.

The worst part is that when I argue about religion I instantly get accused of being an edgy atheist. I think I've showed I'm not that.

[Anonymous No.17167186]

>>17167089
Not really, no

[Anonymous No.17167294]

>>17167185
I guess you could say that Christianity should be above all those other faiths because as you yourself point out it is the Christian culture and Christian artists which gave birth to works of the highest artistics value, but you might argue that faith is not the cause but rather a framework for human mind could have created similar art given sufficient developments in any other faith.

[Anonymous No.17167342]

>>17167113
>I do feel at peace during the liturgy like nothing else though, I feel as if I came back to it so tired and exhausted by guilt that I have lost innocence to the point at which I am back to being innocent if that makes sense lol. Like an eternal return to church
Beautifully put. In any case, since you're Orthodox, check out Theology Of Illness by Jean Claude Larchet. It talks at length about the purpose of suffering for the purification of our souls. This view really helps you see your own sufferings inherent to your condition in a completely different light. As something meaningful rather than pointless.

[Anonymous No.17167361]

>>17167294
You make a good point, but I would suggest your own counter-argument. Also, I wouldn't necessarily say that Christian art is objectively the best. I mean, this is just a small example, but this insane thing was made in the Iron Age by the Celts living in roundhouses and farms. Given more technology, I'm sure the artist who made this could make stuff approaching Christian art but with themes of animism and the like.

[Anonymous No.17167387]

>>17167020
>In my opinion, modern aesthetics are so bad and ill fitting to my soul that I seem to be taking refuge in older art and music.

[Anonymous No.17167404]

>>17167342
Thank you anon, sincerely. Will find& read it asap.
>>17167361
Yeah its hard to argue for the faith purely within art not involving theology. And thats a beautiful work of art.

[Anonymous No.17167442]

>>17167387
Indeed. Couldn't agree more. Disregarding any flaws in Scruton, I'm a follower of his. His books talk a lot about the idea that art tells us not what we want but what we ought to want. Contemplating good art is a sign of good moral character, not just in his opinion but in the opinions of many aesthetic philosophers.

[Anonymous No.17167446]

>>17167361
Why do you think the Passion of Christ specifically inspire so much beauty in the human soul?

[Anonymous No.17167491]

>>17166988
Lmao funny bait

[Anonymous No.17167496]

>>17167404
>>17167446
An issue I have with Christian theology, as an outsider, is that I don't really agree with the masochism of it. The idea that all people are born sinners is abhorrent to me. The obsession with penance just seems too much. It insults me to imagine a parent drilling their kids with lines like "you're sinful and unclean". Perhaps more than anything else I've said in this thread of mine, that's what puts me off the most.

Then again Christianity does have a lot of good aspects such as humility, silence, respect for authority etc. It just takes things too far. For the past several years I've warmed to it despite everything. I respect sophisticated theologians more than some or most scientists.

[Anonymous No.17167668]

>>17167496
You cannot deny there is certain fuckedupness inherent to all human beings. Inherent to our natures. Christianity simply recognizes this tragic truth with sober honesty.
It would have been a pessimistic religion, if not for the promise and fulfillment of the Christ of God. The joy of the Christian is in his hope for that promised happy ending.
I strongly beg you to watch this video, and perhaps share your thoughts about it. It's about Tolkien famously convincing C.S Lewis of Christianity. Lewis had similar objections to yourself.
https://youtu.be/NzBT39gx-TE

[Anonymous No.17167723]

>>17167668
Thanks for the continued serious responses. I'll watch this. I'm a fan of Tolkien. Without watching the video though, I can say that since I move more along Humanist lines, I tend to think that our natures are what they are, but we can strive to be better. We can surely recognise our own baseness but we can rise out of it through understanding our past. We don't need, I'd say, to believe in a god to do this. I read the post in your image and found it interesting, but when I got to the part about the perfect and loving Christ, I just had to stop for a moment. This is what I've read for years and I can never see in it anything other than wishful thinking and the need to be comforted. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but I would still argue that, isn't it better to come to terms with who we are without recourse to an elaborate human made system of belief? Thanks again.

[Anonymous No.17167771]

>>17167723
>when I got to the part about the perfect and loving Christ, I just had to stop for a moment. This is what I've read for years and I can never see in it anything other than wishful thinking and the need to be comforted. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but I would still argue that, isn't it better to come to terms with who we are without recourse to an elaborate human made system of belief?
That is a great point and precisely the argument C.S Lewis makes in the video. Again, I urge you to watch it, if anything as an peek into Tolkien's interesting perspective on his own faith. You will no doubt see his work in a different light after it.

[Anonymous No.17167874]

>>17167771
So, I watched it. The thing is, I find Tolkien's philosophy admirable. Actually, I agree with everything he says about myths. I've read 10 Tolkien books. When I said I'm a fan, I meant I'm really a fan. I know what he means about myths. The whole issue though is that I just can't get past, "We create because we are created." Because it's a thousand times easier to believe that we evolved by the mechanisms of natural selection and sexual selection (I'm an ecologist and naturalist by the way) as opposed to be created. I can believe everything he thinks about myths being our way to be elevated but it doesn't at all follow that I should worship a specific god from a specific region of a specific time. It's too specific. It's too man made.

Another thing. In that video, "Tolkien" says that the materialists have imprisoned us. But he doesn't go any further than that. He just says we're imprisoned. He puts a negative slant on it without thinking of what else it could be. I mean of course he won't like it if he views it from that perspective.

I just can't do it, man. "We are all part of His story." The specific pronoun for a male god in the sky. Again, it's too specific. How is saying that supposed to prove the truth of Christianity to someone who can only put trust in what's been observed. What's unfortunate is that "Tolkien" here isn't actually doing the sophisticated theologian thing of God being some amorphous blob or "in Nature" as Everything. That I could get behind. But I just can't help but sigh whenever someone appeals to god as a specific man. It's so obvious why that came about. Of course men created god to be a man. How am I supposed to take that seriously?

Not sure I can watch any more after 6:00. To Lewis' question asking why Christianity is truer than any of the other stories (other religions) he literally just says, "Because Christianity is true!" There's no arguing with that. It's disappointingly close minded.

[Anonymous No.17167901]

>>17167874
I'll go further just so I'm not accused of being half assed. When "Tolkien" speaks of Christianity's story having all elements, e.g. catastrophe and eucatastrophe, I can't see that as anything other than a product of man's mind forging a good story through obviously human wants and needs. Sorry. I wish I could believe in Christianity so that I didn't feel like an outsider, but I probably never will.

[Anonymous No.17167967]

>>17167771
This is probably one of the only intelligent and in-depth convos I've had with a Christian here (I don't mean to disparage the religion). Do you happen to have discord? I wouldn't mind chatting as you can probably tell I want to figure this out. I hate this conflicting feeling of being irreligious but loving religious imagery and music.

[Anonymous No.17167981]

>>17164990
Stendhal syndrome is the name for getting sick from beauty or lightheaded. Look it up on wikipedia.

[Anonymous No.17168061]

>>17167874
>>17167901
>the sophisticated theologian thing of God being some amorphous blob or "in Nature" as Everything. That I could get behind.
That would be pantheism, and decidedly contrary to the Christian idea of God. The Christian God is defined as the "Logos" (John 1:1) which is often translated as "Word", but which truly means something along the lines of "the logic behind what exists" or "reasoned word". We can discern certain things are right or wrong because there is a logic behind existence, a "mind" so to speak, and we have a spark of that mind which allows us to apprehend that order/logic through reason (i.e created in God's image). Man is usually defined, even secularly, as "rational animal", which goes to show that we know this spark is what separates us from animals.
Anyways, just wanted to clarify that there is much more nuance to the Christian definition of God than what we're usually presented with (bearded man in the sky).
I truly believe you are earnest about wanting to be a good person, that you are not an atheist merely to justify your hedonism. I pray you someday find yourself able to take the leap.
>Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. (Mark 9:24)
God bless you and thank you for taking your time to watch the video and conveying your thoughts about it. Happy New Year's Eve, anon.

[Anonymous No.17168161]

>>17167967
>This is probably one of the only intelligent and in-depth convos I've had with a Christian here
Same but with an atheist. Your objections are honest and based on reason rather than biased. As if your sensibilities draw you to it like moth to the flame, but your intellect gets in the way.
Also, I want to clarify I'm not the same Orthodox anon from >>17166951 >>17167113 >>17167294 >>17167404
> Do you happen to have discord? I wouldn't mind chatting as you can probably tell I want to figure this out. I hate this conflicting feeling of being irreligious but loving religious imagery and music.
Post your discord and I'll add you. Or if you are also reticent about posting it on 4chan I'll create some alternate account.
Orthodox anon if you are still around post yours!

[Anonymous No.17168236]

>>17168061
Once again, thanks for the responses. The unfortunate thing is that I can argue with everything you say. When you say there is a Word and a reasoning mind that gives us our morality, I could just point to the fields of anthropology, evolutionary psychology, biology, etc. etc. We treat each other well and have reason for specific benefits. It's not a very comforting truth, but that seems to be the truth to me.
>>17168161
Certainly not an atheist to justify hedonism. I'm not a hedonist in any sense of the word. You know, I've often thought about how much I would suit living in a monastery? I'm probably the least atheist atheist, barring of course the vital element of not believing in god. And you'll understand when I say I believe that non-religious people can be good and just and value the right things without religion.

My Discord is Xanturi#9483

[Anonymous No.17168977]

cool thread

[Anonymous No.17169431]

>>17165329
Ignore him, fren